What the hell is this all about? DCOE's?

[markmdz89hatch]

Alright, so, cat's out of the bag now. Many of the more veteran members may remember that waaaaay back in the day, I picked up a set of DCOE's with the dream to one day actually install them.

...NO, don't get your hopes up, they're not running on the car yet, but rather then waiting until I was completed with the project and making it a surprise, I figured maybe I could use this thread as a motivation to actually finish something for once.

...just yesterday I did a test fit... That's the elusive TWM B16/B18 DCOE manifold (brand friggin new, but been sitting on a shelf in my garage for the past 5-6 years) that I just pulled out of it's box this weekend, drilled a few extra holes in it, and well there you go. As said, angle is way off, but I'm working on that now.

Here's the outcome. ...still working on a way to get this proper angle figured out, but here's where I am so far...

EDIT: btw, for those that are about to give me a hard time for not at least cleaning up the motor, that's not the motor they're going to land on ultimately, but it is the original motor to the car (228K on it, and in pretty good shape if I don't say so myself.).

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00087.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00088.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00089.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00090.jpg

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah those angle are all wrong. You should just give up on your project right now and send me those carbs. I'll get rid of them for you. :D

[2oodoor]

Hold up 2ndGenGuy, I have to inspect them first to make sure it is something you could use :squint:
That's Hot Mark !
how much more angle do you need, it's a shame you couldn't get it by modifiying the engine/tranny mounts.

[markmdz89hatch]

Hold up 2ndGenGuy, I have to inspect them first to make sure it is something you could use :squint:
That's Hot Mark !
how much more angle do you need, it's a shame you couldn't get it by modifiying the engine/tranny mounts.

you know, that's not a bad idea. I'll start looking into that now, but something makes me thing that'll be opening a can of worms I wish I hadn't opened. Because our motors use that additional center x-member, which also has a motor/tranny mount built into it, and with the mechanical shift linkage, and the side motor mount, I just think it would take so much fabrication that the cost of cutting and re-welding, or just custom fabb'ing a manifold would net a much lesser expense.

As for the angle, word on the dcoe street is that optimal angle for the dcoes to function at their best is +2°. That said, with the motor at +15°, the manifold would need the head flange cut at a 13° downturn.

Of course, the conflicting info on proper angle has been as low as dead level, and as high as +7°, so there appears to be a fair margin for error and still get a good performing setup.

[2oodoor]

wishfull thinking yes lol
another way would be using some kind of phonelic (sp?) material to cut a vibration isolator slash spacer, again nothing like cutting it and rewelding the flange at the desired angle.
I have the HPbooks "Weber Carbuartors" by Pat Braden, if you don't have that you should find it, I bought mine at Summit. It has recommended configurations on mulitiple engines. I can't readily find the optimum angle data but it is probably in there somewhere. They show a DCOE set up on a V8 and they are mounted at around 30 degree angle judging by the pictures.

[lostforawhile]

why not have the manifold flange machined to allow for the 15 degree tilt of the engine? i ended up putting two manifolds together to make it sit at the correct angle. the other problem you will have if you move the engine,is the oil pickup it's designed to work best where it is.

[2oodoor]

Mark you weren't kidding those things are fresh spanked baby butt new.

[markmdz89hatch]

yeah agreed. No tilting of the motor. That's like having 750 guys pick up a house and turn it just to unscrew a lightbulb. Instead, just turn the bulb.

The only trouble with cutting two manifolds together, is you end up with curved, or angled runners. The optimal setup is a tilted flange at the head side, and the runners straight, bend-free, and perpendicular to the carb flange.

Edit: Guy, I'm not playing around when I say they're new. I still have the boxes the DCOE's came in too. I lucked out and bought the whole kit from some guy on ebay about 6 years ago. Carb's, linkages, air horns, manifold, syncrometer, hard and soft mount kit, and spacers all for something like $950 shipped. ...and I still have the original box it was all shipped to me in.

[lostforawhile]

yeah agreed. No tilting of the motor. That's like having 750 guys pick up a house and turn it just to unscrew a lightbulb. Instead, just turn the bulb.

The only trouble with cutting two manifolds together, is you end up with curved, or angled runners. The optimal setup is a tilted flange at the head side, and the runners straight, bend-free, and perpendicular to the carb flange.
well it's part of a the original su manifold and part of the factory manifold made into one,it's a pretty straight shot to the cyl head the end of the factory runners are milled at 15 degrees

[markmdz89hatch]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

shit, on that note, how 'bout I send you a set of runners, and flanges (A20 intake, and 2xdcoe) and have you tig 'em up for me? I'll def pay you for the troubles as long as you can give me the quality (if not better) that I can get from a local fabricator. I'm all for putting money back into the same big pocket rather then sending it to someone only to increase their revenue.

...I'll need 4 bungs welded to the runners too for vacuum. c'mon Timster, whad'ya say?

[lostforawhile]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

i have an entire thread somewhere on here

[lostforawhile]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

shit, on that note, how 'bout I send you a set of runners, and flanges (A20 intake, and 2xdcoe) and have you tig 'em up for me? I'll def pay you for the troubles as long as you can give me the quality (if not better) that I can get from a local fabricator. I'm all for putting money back into the same big pocket rather then sending it to someone only to increase their revenue.

...I'll need 4 bungs welded to the runners too for vacuum.well i had to send mine off to my stepbrothers in atlanta to have the welding done,we don't have anything heavy enough at work to do it. was quite a project just to get to this point.

[2oodoor]

come on now, the idea was tossed out there as outside the box thinking to help gain perspective on the problem. Anybody knows you could cut the drywall ceiling using only three guys to unscrew the bulb..:lol: maybe a fourth one to keep twisting the wire.
Just how much angle correction do you need from the current point?
I know you dont want gas dripping out of the air horns.

There is another factor. Does the angle of the carb base flange change with suspension/tire modifications?

[lostforawhile]

angle shouldn't change if you lower all four wheels the same and keep the car level. oh heres my setup http://img108.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2007/08/10/s4020050-47g0ved21.jpg and heres one of the threads not all the pics work but most do.http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56803&highlight=carbs

[87roach]

This is sweet man, those things look crazy! Sounds like you have quite a project.

[Civic Accord Honda]

Alright, so, cat's out of the bag now. Many of the more veteran members may remember that waaaaay back in the day, I picked up a set of DCOE's with the dream to one day actually install them.

...NO, don't get your hopes up, they're not running on the car yet, but rather then waiting until I was completed with the project and making it a surprise, I figured maybe I could use this thread as a motivation to actually finish something for once.

...just yesterday I did a test fit... That's the elusive TWM B16/B18 DCOE manifold (brand friggin new, but been sitting on a shelf in my garage for the past 5-6 years) that I just pulled out of it's box this weekend, drilled a few extra holes in it, and well there you go. As said, angle is way off, but I'm working on that now.

Here's the outcome. ...still working on a way to get this proper angle figured out, but here's where I am so far...

EDIT: btw, for those that are about to give me a hard time for not at least cleaning up the motor, that's not the motor they're going to land on ultimately, but it is the original motor to the car (228K on it, and in pretty good shape if I don't say so myself.).

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00087.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00088.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00089.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/IMG00090.jpg holly shit wow!!! thats pure sex!!

[lostforawhile]

This is sweet man, those things look crazy! Sounds like you have quite a project.
yea if i can ever get a junk motor to mock up everything on i can get busy on finishing them

[88LXi68]

wow mark...that actually looks good. now pull the engine and get it running!

[markmdz89hatch]

wow mark...that actually looks good. now pull the engine and get it running!

thanks Steve. hey, btw, thanks for all your help so far.... :help:

Beer and pizza on me...:cheers:

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, so a few vacuum questions now.

After seeing a post about it, and looking it up more, I'm leaning toward using a vacuum reserve canister for all my vac needs. The plan will be to tap each runner and dump them all into the canister.

Any objections to that?

Next, is identifying all my vacuum needs. What I've identified so far:

Brake Booster
Distributor
PCV

Anything else? Do I need all 3? The plan is to do a small vacuum manifold from the canister to deliver the vacuum.

Now's the time for all the DCOE guys to spill the beans the let me know all the troubles they've encountered, or even just good info for the swap/install.

Anyone got anything?

[cygnus x-1]

Good plan. Obviously you need the brake booster and vacuum advance. The PCV you wouldn't have to have but I personally think it's a good idea to keep the oil and crank case clean. You can put a restriction in the line to keep it from being so much of a vacuum leak if you want (PCV is really just a controlled vacuum leak). Also an extra catch can will help keep the oil out of the intake.

C|



Ok, so a few vacuum questions now.

After seeing a post about it, and looking it up more, I'm leaning toward using a vacuum reserve canister for all my vac needs. The plan will be to tap each runner and dump them all into the canister.

Any objections to that?

Next, is identifying all my vacuum needs. What I've identified so far:

Brake Booster
Distributor
PCV

Anything else? Do I need all 3? The plan is to do a small vacuum manifold from the canister to deliver the vacuum.

Now's the time for all the DCOE guys to spill the beans the let me know all the troubles they've encountered, or even just good info for the swap/install.

Anyone got anything?

[markmdz89hatch]

nice, I've been waiting for your response.

yeah, as for the catch can, I was thinking about that this morning on my way in to work. Are you suggesting an extra can (in addition to the one on the back of the block), or just replace that with a larger remote can?

I don't have any real good reason for it, but I would prefer to keep the block basically bare, and just mount everything remotely, like the vac can, and oil catch can, and I'm even considering an oil filter relocation kit (but most likely won't do that, as I don't want 9 million hoses hanging of the back of the motor either). For the sake of simplicity I would prefer to replace the stock can (more like box) with a remote can and call it a day.

As for restricting the vac pull from the pcv, as long as I'm pulling from the can, theoretically, the pull from each runner should all be equal, so a/f and velocity/pressure in the runners should all remain pretty much the same across all four right? That said, is it so much of a leak that it'll depleat the can and end up scavenging for vac with the stock sized lines? Isn't the PCV somewhat of a check-valve in it's own right as well?

edit: one more thing. (thinking recycling here) Can I re-use my a/c reserve can as a vac reserve can? By the looks of it, and concept, the vac can is nothing more then a sealed can that's capped and has a check-valve at the inlet so it doesn't push vac back up into the runners right? if that's the case, I should be able to use basically anything that's a sealed, clean, can that I could tap for inlet(check valve) and outlet (vac delivery).

[88LXi68]

thanks Steve. hey, btw, thanks for all your help so far.... :help:

Beer and pizza on me...:cheers:



ouch...low blow but deserving. do you have the week off or something?

:beer:

[markmdz89hatch]

nope. Been working after I put the kids to bed and staying out there 'til like 11:30-12:00, and got a ton of time in this past weekend.

[cygnus x-1]

nice, I've been waiting for your response.

yeah, as for the catch can, I was thinking about that this morning on my way in to work. Are you suggesting an extra can (in addition to the one on the back of the block), or just replace that with a larger remote can?


I was thinking of a second can, so it would go like this:

Block -> stock oil box -> PCV valve -> second catch can -> manifold vacuum port

A second can would just be to trap any remaining oil that gets past the oil box. I was surprised at how much oil gets through there and would end up in the manifold.




I don't have any real good reason for it, but I would prefer to keep the block basically bare, and just mount everything remotely, like the vac can, and oil catch can, and I'm even considering an oil filter relocation kit (but most likely won't do that, as I don't want 9 million hoses hanging of the back of the motor either). For the sake of simplicity I would prefer to replace the stock can (more like box) with a remote can and call it a day.


I had exactly the same thoughts during my rebuild a couple years ago. The problem is that the stock oil box has a hole that goes into the block itself, as well as a hose that goes down to the oil pan. So if you pull it off the block you would need to either plug the hole in the block and cap the port on the box, OR figure out a way to connect another hose between the block and oil box. And that's in addition to the hose to the oil pan. What you would end up with is more hoses than before, meaning more trouble. Honestly, the simplest thing to do would be to tear the foam cover off the box and replace the oil pan hose, o-ring between the box and block, and the rubber hose from the oil box to the manifold. This basically restores everything to stock condition and has the best chance of not leaking. One thing I've learned over the last few years is that more plumbing means more opportunity for leaks. Oil, water, air, whatever. So only add plumbing when it's really of benefit.
If you replace all the rubber parts associated with that oil box you shouldn't have any problem, and it really isn't in the way of anything.

A vac can you can put wherever. I had a remote oil filter for awhile but later removed it. It made oil changes easier but took up a lot of room. The stock filter location is annoying but not that bad relatively speaking. I've seen worse (my truck for one).




As for restricting the vac pull from the pcv, as long as I'm pulling from the can, theoretically, the pull from each runner should all be equal, so a/f and velocity/pressure in the runners should all remain pretty much the same across all four right? That said, is it so much of a leak that it'll depleat the can and end up scavenging for vac with the stock sized lines? Isn't the PCV somewhat of a check-valve in it's own right as well?

The issue is not about balance from runner to runner, but about letting air into the manifold that doesn't go through the carbs. Any air that gets into the manifold that doesn't go through the carbs is considered a vacuum leak. The PCV valve is a check valve in that it keeps intake backfires from going back into the crank case, but it also allows air from the crank case to go into the manifold in order to remove blow by gases. It won't be enough of a leak to deplete a vac can but it will affect the idle mixture a little. It's hard to say how much but if you tune the idle without the PCV connected you will have to retune it when you do connect it.




edit: one more thing. (thinking recycling here) Can I re-use my a/c reserve can as a vac reserve can? By the looks of it, and concept, the vac can is nothing more then a sealed can that's capped and has a check-valve at the inlet so it doesn't push vac back up into the runners right? if that's the case, I should be able to use basically anything that's a sealed, clean, can that I could tap for inlet(check valve) and outlet (vac delivery).

No check valves, except the standard one for the brake booster. Do you have any of the stock vac cans left? Any sealed container strong enough to withstand a vacuum would work. People have used PVC pipe capped on the ends, fuel filters, whatever. Basically the can just provides a buffer between any vacuum devices and the manifold.


C|

[markmdz89hatch]

nice. thanks for the reply. ...as always, very very informative.

PCV: First, I'm an idiot because I was thinking backwards. Forgot the flow was to release air back into the manifold, rather then pull from it. That said, I think a diagram would be best to show how I envision setting everything up (which I'll draw up now and post in a few).

As for releasing air back into the manifold, just as I'm setting up the can for any vacuum needs (ie. booster, dizzy) so there's no pull directly from a runner, I would do the same in reverse. As the PCV dumps air, I would put that on a vac manifold (pre-can) so it can distribute it's air dump back into the manifold via all 4 runners.

Stock Oil Can: Yeah, I was thinking about the best way to mock that block fitting up with aftermarket parts, and ended up hurting my brain, so I'm going to end up doing what you said and sticking with the stock can in addition to an additional catch can. However, I'm assuming that additional can would have to be drained occasionally unless I tap the bottom of it and push that oil back into the motor via a Y fitting on the oil-pain hose as well.

I looked into the oil filter relocation more, and for the exact reasons you mentioned, I'm going to hold off on it.

You read my friggin mind on the use of a PVC pipe capped on both ends for the vac can too. Just this morning I was looking at all of the cans, and saw that the max any of the vac guages goes to is 30 in Hg, which is nothing more then a 14 psi negative pressure, which PVC would laugh at. Not only that, but that's free (courtesy of having a ton of spare pipe and fittings in my basement), in comparison to the $35-80 I would spend for one at Summit or Jegs.

I'll get a drawing together very soon.

[2ndGenGuy]

On my 81, I used a tin can that had little oranges in it. The small can was just the right size... The bonus is that the oranges were delicious.

I just used silver solder and put two hose fittings into it from Home Depot and soldered them on, and soldered the lid back on. Then painted it all black. Nobody knows it was a can of oranges and it does it's job well. After about 2-3 oil changes it gets pretty full of nasty goup.

I think the best thing about the catch can is using it to keep the moisture out of your engine. As the oil gets hot, the moisture boils out of the engine and it gets captured in the can. I would not dump it back into the crank case... You get a white creamy liquid that fills up in the can, and you are happy you didn't burn it or let it sit in your crank case by just putting filters on each end of your PCV system.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/jgturk/1g/DSC01419.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

as I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to put this diagram together, I had to stop and think for a second about that PCV again.

2ndGenGuy --> Can I assume that you're not piping that back into the manifold? Instead, what you have is the stock oil can on the back of the block piped as stock>PCV>Catch can, and there it stops?

If the PCV is just acting as a crank pressure relief, but does still expel some oil vapors, then with the use of a catch can (as long as it becomes regular practice to drain it) there's no need to direct it back into the manny right?

That would then alleviate the a/f mixture issues that the PCV dumping air into the runner would produce right?

ouch, me cranium is starting to smoke.

[2ndGenGuy]

The 1g doesn't have a true PCV system. It only has the vent on the valve cover. The other end of that can does actually hook directly to the manifold. I have it also split and hooked to carb vacuum with a check valve on each line so that the carb vacuum won't pull from the manifold and vice-versa. Basically how a stock 1g is set up. There's not even a stock PCV valve to regulate the flow on this car, and in my opinion isn't a very good setup, but that's how it is. The vacuum leak doesn't really affect the running of the car, just a slight turn on the mixture screw takes care of it.

But back on topic of the 3rd gens....

Honda improved on crankcase ventilation in their next motors (ES/ET/A series) by adding a vent for the fresh air to come in, making it a true PCV system with the valve to regulate the flow properly. That's why you do want to hook it to manifold vacuum on your car as well.

If you don't hook manifold vacuum up to either the valve cover or the case vent on your motor fresh air won't be drawn in properly, nor will all the crap exit your crankcase properly. Excess pressure may blow out through either path naturally, but it will probably leave all the blowby and moisture swirling around in your engine and you don't want that.

Having that "leak" isn't that bad of a deal. Your PCV valve should help on your motor a lot, and actually cut back a lot of the vacuum flow at low RPM if I recall correctly, since crankcase pressures are lower anyways.

I hope I didn't just confuse the crap out of you with this...

[markmdz89hatch]

ok, so here's what I had in mind for the vacuum setup. The green indicates vacuum feed to the can, and orange is the draw from the can.

I intentionally left out the PCV because I'm hoping to tackle that without the need to tap the manifold. Instead unless someone out there is going to try and convince me otherwise, I'm going to end up with a setup as follows:

Stock can on the back of the block --> PCV --> Catch can with a drain mounted to the firewall or somewhere else out of the way to keep the clutter to a minimum.

Please chime in if you think this vac setup and pcv setup is good, bad, or just ehh...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20_vacuum.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

2ndGenGuy --> ok, in light of that last post, I'm still liking the idea of a semi-isolated system.

But, just to understand correctly, the PCV is a bi-directional valve? It relieves crank case pressure (thus letting some oil vapors and air back into the manifold [on a stock setup that is]), and also pulls fresh air back into the motor? I don't quite get the whole concept of it drawing fresh air into the motor?

Anyway, when looking at all of the oil catch cans on various sites, nearly all of them have a breather filter fixed at the top of them to keep pressure from building up in the can. I'll be doing that same thing with my setup as well.

[2ndGenGuy]

I think the Wikipedia article can explain how the PCV valve works the best. The PCV valve is just one part of the whole PCV system. And the system is what draws in the fresh air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve#PCV_valve

In their example, they use a V8 where the breather (drawing fresh air) is on one valve cover, and the PCV valve is connected to the other valve cover.

In the 3rd gen, the breather is on the valve cover (where the fresh air is drawn in), but the PCV valve is connected to that box on the back of the motor. Which eventually goes to manifold vacuum. Also, I don't believe the PCV valve works using a spring on the Honda, but works via gravity so it always needs to be upright to work properly...

[lostforawhile]

the box on the back of the block is to seperate oil from the blowby gasses,oil gets vaporized in the rotating assembly,then it wants to travel up the pcv system and get burned in the engine, that box lets the liquid oil go back into the block, the second connection on the back of the block, is one of the oil drains from the head, vapors are pulled from the pan then the liquid oil drains back into that drain and runs back into the pan. as far as the pcv valve, it's spring loaded like any other valve. it only opens under certain vacume conditions. if the blowby gasses were dumping into the manifold at idle it would upset the idle mixture. basically fresh air is drawn from the air cleaner,travels through oil drains in the block, down through the block, while is does this it picks up water vapor and blowby gasses, the air is pulled up at the back of the oil pan, travels through the oil vapor seperator, liquid oil drains back to the pan, and blowby gasses are drawn through the pcv valve and into the manifold to be burned. i do like the seperator between the valve and the manifold,i have head a lot about that. the system works the same way but a lot of that crap stays out of the engine. i don't understand why new cars don't have this, you could have a sensor light to tell you when to empty the collector, or empty it at oil changes, and discard the gunk with the oil. it would keep a lot of crap out of the air.

[markmdz89hatch]

thanks Tim.

Alright, so now that I have spent hours here at work (while I'm supposed to be working) educating myself on the function and purpose of the PCV (although I'm still a little fuzzy about a few things)...

I'm thinking I'll still do the collection can, but also tap the top of it for a vacuum line, which would essentially allow all crap that the PCV Valve expels to either vaporize or condense. The vaporized emissions (gases) from the valve would get sucked out of the can and drawn back into vacuum reservoir, and eventually pulled back through into the manifold ignited.

The condensate, or 'heavy shit' that the PCV spits into the catch can will just drip down to the bottom of the can for removal at a later date.

Just another small bit of food for thought too...

If the V style motors use a tap on one valve cover for the breather tube, and a tap on the other cover for a tap for the PCV to release back into the combustion chamber, then what would be the harm in fitting our valve cover with another tap and pipe the PCV valve directly to it rather than a tapped runner?

Either way, with the exception of the PCV valve placement and plumbing, how does the diagram look above? Any suggestions for improvements? ..or do we think that's the most optimal way of running it?

[2ndGenGuy]

I would say you have it spot on Mark. Using the catch can as a vacuum chamber seems like a great idea to me, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work fantastic.

As far as two taps on the Honda valve cover, that wouldn't do any more than one. You still wouldn't get flow through the crankcase, it would just keep the valve cover area clear. In the V8, it goes in one valve cover, down the oil passage into the crank case, back up through the oil passage on the other head and into that valve cover and out.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/jgturk/Picture3-1.png
There's an A20 setup.

Just to throw a wrench in the cog. The ES motor has the PCV valve in the valve cover, and that's what goes to manifold. But fresh air is drawn in at the back of the motor where your breather box is. The same could be done to an A20 if you wanted to, since the ES and A20 are essentially the same motors.

[lostforawhile]

I would say you have it spot on Mark. Using the catch can as a vacuum chamber seems like a great idea to me, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work fantastic.

As far as two taps on the Honda valve cover, that wouldn't do any more than one. You still wouldn't get flow through the crankcase, it would just keep the valve cover area clear. In the V8, it goes in one valve cover, down the oil passage into the crank case, back up through the oil passage on the other head and into that valve cover and out.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/jgturk/Picture3-1.png
There's an A20 setup.

Just to throw a wrench in the cog. The ES motor has the PCV valve in the valve cover, and that's what goes to manifold. But fresh air is drawn in at the back of the motor where your breather box is. The same could be done to an A20 if you wanted to, since the ES and A20 are essentially the same motors. right,the es motors system works the same as the a20,but in reverse. whatever the situation you still need the tapped vaccume somewhere to draw the air through the crankcase. the reason ours works the way it does, is in the reverse system, sludge tends to accumulate at the top of the engine and migrate downwards, in our system it would collect in the very bottom of the oil pan, where the oil would help keep it in suspension and be removed at oil changes the oil pan acts like a big catch can, another reason to keep up with your oil changes

[cygnus x-1]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20_vacuum.jpg


Looks like you guys got it figured out. I think the diagram is basically what you want. Just add another tap on top of the can to go to the PCV valve. Then have a drain plug on the bottom.

The pressure/vacuum thing can get confusing. I find it easier to think of everything by manifold pressure, with the understanding that the manifold pressure is lower than the outside air pressure. Outside air pressure always stays the same, and the manifold pressure changes with engine load and RPM.

C|

[markmdz89hatch]

Alright, well now I have another MAJOR problem I'm going to have to deal with.

My intention was to get this car registered and just pull the reg when I got me letter for emissions testing (they usually give you about 2 years), but being that I was registered a few years ago, and let the reg expire, I now need to get temps and bring the car for an emissions test BEFORE I can even register the car.

Cygnus, hell anyone for that matter --> Is there a way for me to 'de-tune' these bastards after I put them on so I can at least pass emissions testing? I have heard rumor that they can pass if leaned out heavily, but I also don't feel like burning out the seals/rings, etc from running too lean just for the test.

Any suggestions? Is it even possible to pass with these uglies on?

[2oodoor]

I don't think it would, but then I don't have any DCOE :o and don't have to pass emmisions either;)
If I were you I would just borrow a 32/36 and intake to get the schicker, then give it back!

[cygnus x-1]

To have the best chance of passing you want the air/fuel ratio to be 14.7 as much as possible. That way the catalytic converter will be the most happy and keep the unburnt hydrocarbon and CO emissions low. Without an EGR valve you may have problems with too much NOx, especially with leaner mixtures. Lean mixtures are good for HC and CO but NOx goes through the roof. 14.7:1 is the sweet spot for emissions.

Also make sure the ignition timing is at factory specs.

I've heard that adding some ethanol to the gas helps a little too.

C|

[A18A]

oh man those there look sooooo nice

[2oodoor]

To have the best chance of passing you want the air/fuel ratio to be 14.7 as much as possible. That way the catalytic converter will be the most happy and keep the unburnt hydrocarbon and CO emissions low. Without an EGR valve you may have problems with too much NOx, especially with leaner mixtures. Lean mixtures are good for HC and CO but NOx goes through the roof. 14.7:1 is the sweet spot for emissions.

Also make sure the ignition timing is at factory specs.

I've heard that adding some ethanol to the gas helps a little too.

C|

wideband I am sure he will have with this set up
Mark you may get by, depends on circumstances know what I mean vern?:deal:

sort of a related topic>> the new diesels, in particular GM I am thinking of, has a special metal in the tailpipe that reduces certain elements in the exhaust , if you ever see a 2008 duramax pickup, notice the huge wang ricer tailpipe... mandatory engineering.

[markmdz89hatch]

I don't think it would, but then I don't have any DCOE :o and don't have to pass emmisions either;)
If I were you I would just borrow a 32/36 and intake to get the schicker, then give it back!

Guy, I'll PM you my shipping address then ok?

...and yes, I will be having an extra bung fitting welded into my header (on the collector) for a wideband/O2 sensor. ...that said though, I don't have a wideband, and it hasn't been factored into my budget (which is uber stretched already), so I'll have to find one that I can borrow just for the analysis and (de)tuning of the webers for the test. ...then of course one will be needed to retune the faakers too.

...buh, what a royal pita.

[2oodoor]

what about The (santa) clause? When do these old ass entheusisit hobby farm vehilces get to slide by emmissions certs.

Um I then > in turn can send you my address sir, many many circumstance can surround the likleyhood of passing, and you guessed just one possibility.;)

These are somewhat performance carbs but were used in some OEM cough cough Italia apps so even then if it is lean and clean it still has to be inside the EPA window for specification. I think you should get the wideband, rebudget. You will always have a use for it as long as you are running these. I think it will bug you relentlessly once you start driving it, geez I wonder if it's too lean today something something happen but uhhh I don't know for sure or Hrmm seems kinda rich now but whaaa oh I didn't get that doo hickey.. lol. j/k

[markmdz89hatch]

progress is VERY slow. Painfully slow in fact, but at least there is progress...

a few teaser shots....

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/whatthe.jpg

...one horse (uhh.... ...i mean kitten) power. She and her twin sister are my newest assistants and supervisors...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/1catpower.jpg

[2ndGenGuy]

Man does that engine look tiny when it's just sitting there in front of your car! Cute kitten BTW.

[Civic Accord Honda]

it appears your engine bay is missing a engine! i would check the last road u drove down maybe it fell out not to far from your house?
haha cute cat tho and white head light surroundings FTW i did that to mine too http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/Dark_Accord/sexy002.jpg

[A18A]

haha looks like you can fit 2 a20's in the front, one for each wheel

[Ichiban]

They should have made an A40A3 V8. That would kick ass. 240+ HP from the factory, and I bet it would sound good.

[2ndGenGuy]

They should have made an A40A3 V8. That would kick ass. 240+ HP from the factory, and I bet it would sound good.

You should make one. Just like that guy who made the Hyabusa V8. That thing sounds pretty pissed too.

[markmdz89hatch]

Man does that engine look tiny when it's just sitting there in front of your car! Cute kitten BTW.

but I can promise you one thing.

...that son-of-a-bitch is friggin heavy. The only reason it is where it is, is because after unbolting the tranny what you see is what I was left with (alternator, flywheel, clutch, etc inlcuded).

....and without a hoist, the next best thing is brute force and much stupidity. With the kids asleep for their naps, I walked in the house, grabbed the phone, and handed it to the wife and asked her to call 911 if she heard any non-human noises, the proceeded to go outside, loosen up that last bolt, and lift the beast out and set her down right where she lies in that pic.

[A18A]

geezus, good thing it wasnt a a40a3 then

[2oodoor]

LMAO Mark, non human noises....
are you going to put it in from the bottom? looks like you could do that pretty easy even with the tranny on: ratchet strap it to the jack.

[markmdz89hatch]

LMAO Mark, non human noises....
are you going to put it in from the bottom? looks like you could do that pretty easy even with the tranny on: ratchet strap it to the jack.

Nah, I figure one extremely stupid move does not deserve another. I've been scouring craigslist and local classifieds for used hoists for cheap, and have a few friends that might have access to one as well, so between the two, I'll do this one the right way.

My intention is to see if I can get the whole motor/tranny assembled before dropping it in, just to make for the least amount of work on my back. If I can't fit it with the tranny already on, I'll at least bolt up the clutch and fly before hand.

Alright well, updates.....

The rockers and cam (stock for now) have been swapped over to my P&P head. The carbs bolted right up to the manifold, but due to spacing between carbs, I'm going to have to modify my throttle bracket, but I don't expect that to be a big deal.

Next up, I have to take that motor you see in the pic (the original to the car) and I'm considering using the full bottom-end, but also have two other short-blocks I may use as well (kinda want to have at least some part of the original engine still in there). About a gallon of brake-kleen, and some soap and scrubbing, then a quick rattle-can treatment of high-heat paint, and I'll be in business with that thing.

I still need to figure out all my 'extra' vacuum lines that are lingering after pulling the A/C, etc.

[2oodoor]

I wouldn't say putting it in from the bottom was stupid, professionals do it all the time. Using a transmission jack not a floor jack, and having two post lift helps but is not necessary as long as you have the car safely chocked, and can get it high enough to slide the powerplant under, then let it down easy till you get the mounts in place.
You may want to check out some of your local parts stores, some have a loan agreement thing, basically you purchase the equipment then bring it back for a refund... they know you are bringing it back btw.

[markmdz89hatch]

yep, AutoZone does that too, and I have taken advantage of that program a number of times for various tools. In fact (little secret here) one of the employees there told me that sometimes their loaner tools are better than the retail tools. (example: O2 sensor removal tool. The 'rental' tool has 3 or 4 individual funky sockets in a blow molded case (brand O.E.M) for let's say $20. The retail tool kit, same brand, comes with only 2 sockets and no case for the same $20.)

They actually suggested that I just 'rent' the tool and never return it, but just asked that I let them know my intention so they could order a replacement.

[2ndGenGuy]

I dropped an engine in a 2g Accord by hand once. We put the block in first, then bolted up the head, then the tranny. No engine lift required. :D

[markmdz89hatch]

I dropped an engine in a 2g Accord by hand once. We put the block in first, then bolted up the head, then the tranny. No engine lift required. :D

True, a stripped down block, while very heavy, is not the worst thing in the world to move around. I had to pick one of my shortblocks up from a friend of mine, and had tied it down to a piece of plywood, and it wasn't the too terrible to take out of my trunk and move around.

I just don't have time on my side right now, and the absolute quickest way to build this motor and have it running in the car is by building it completely on the stand, then using a hoist to drop it in.

[2oodoor]

move to Augusta or somewhere in South Carolina and I will come by and help...:D have hoist will travel up to an hour.
Anybody around you have a tractor loader? I have put a few motors in with backhoes, loaders, towmotors.. :D
It will be easier on the ole back having that intake on already, but I don't know how hard is it to get the bottom nuts on that DCOE manifold you have with the carbs on or off. Probably not any easier is it.

[Ichiban]

move to Augusta or somewhere in South Carolina and I will come by and help...:D have hoist will travel up to an hour.
Anybody around you have a tractor loader? I have put a few motors in with backhoes, loaders, towmotors.. :D
It will be easier on the ole back having that intake on already, but I don't know how hard is it to get the bottom nuts on that DCOE manifold you have with the carbs on or off. Probably not any easier is it.

Fuck sake, I did my first Re+re on my Toy to get it moving with my dads tiny backhoe on the 3 point of the farm tractor. Yarded the 22R-E + garbage 5 speed tranny all at once, and stuffed in the 20R + cast iron 4 speed, had it running in 48 hours, including complete wiring swap. All outside in the snow, of course.

I had a hard time getting the bottom intake mani nuts off an A20A3 with the engine out of the car.

[2ndGenGuy]

I had a hard time getting the bottom intake mani nuts off an A20A3 with the engine out of the car.

Ah fuck I did this once too. Engine sitting out in the yard, I'm like "Bam, fuckin intake manifold!" Took me like 45 minutes to get it off with that fucking water tube in the way. I ripped that water tube off after I realized I was an idiot and took like 10 minutes to get the rest off.

[2oodoor]

I guess it is a bitch with the intake manifolds in or out of the car cuz it took me a while to get the manfold off the b20 and it was out of the car. Took me a couple hours in the car A20A1 , I think I have the procedure down pat now. I use a rubber mopar heater bypass hose on teh oil separator, it is much easier to deal wtih and is the same size with a bend in it, Use gearwrench on the second two from outside, then a gooseneck 12mm on the two center ones.

[markmdz89hatch]

Finally! It's DONE. Not my car, but a PRODUCTION DCOE Manifold for the A20 exists. I need a nap now.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?p=933897#post933897