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conozo
07-19-2008, 07:37 AM
This will be a long post, but i need some help. If you want to skip the first part, start reading at (part 2)

My 1988 Accord DX has been in the family since it was purchased from the dealership in 1988 with no previous owners. My dad owned the car, then let my sister drive it, then let me drive it when my sister was done with it. He handed the title over to me earlier this year. The point of that tidbit is that we know the history of the vehicle, we have all the original paperwork and repair receipts.

Now the mess begins. I do alot of work on the car myself, but sometimes i just cant do it fast enough or have the right tools. So i have a shop to do it. I have a hard time trusting shops since i always inspect the repair and most of the time they did something stupid but their mistake is not always critical or damaging. My work has never failed. Any shop i have taken it to, has failed at least 4 out of 5 times.

Ok, so the story begins. In November 2007, i was looking for a minivan. I drove all over town and called everywhere. I found a 1996 Plymouth Voyager SE 144,000 miles for 2,300. It was all we could afford at the time and we needed one asap. I took it for a test drive and thought it was ok, but for the price it was so much better than any other van i found. They were 1988-1995 vans with 200,000 plus miles for about the same price (except for the ones that weren't running). Anyways i purchased the van for 2,100. It ran ok, untill the transmission blew on May 2008. It lasted 6 months and 15,000miles. I called talked to the guy and asked him again if there were any problems and told him what happened. He offered no help which is reasonably acceptable since it was a used car.

(part 2)

I purchased the car from the owner of a auto repair shop. This was a plus for the van, since you would think he would take good care of it. Anyways the store is called Barkers Imports and More Napa Auto Care Center. So i think to myself, hey i wonder if they would work on my accord since other places refuse to work on it and especially the carb. I ask them and they actually know what i am talking about and have done a Weber conversion on older hondas. I take the car in there for a front lower ball joint replacement. They do the job, and screw up. I had replaced all the bolts and nuts that hold on the suspension since i had done so much work before that i wanted strong threads. I get it back and my new bolts aren't there and some are wrong. I had a castle nut where a regular nut should have been.

On to repair #2. They replace my water pump which was squealing and leaking and my timing belt. (it was replaced by another shop i dont like anymore 40,000 miles ago) I didnt notice anything wrong.

On to repair #3. I asked them to install my weber. It took them 15 days and i already had all the parts for them when i first showed up. I am still not happy with the setup. The throttle cable is worse than the picture of the "wrong way" to do it on this site. But it works fine/better than my other stock carb. Right now even with all these problems you must be thinking why do i go back. I'll tell you why, this is the best shop i have found and they have the best record so far on repairs.

On to repair #4. My wedding is approaching and me and my future wife are planning a 10 day, 5,000 mile trip from indiana to the grand canyon and many other places in colorado to be taken in the trusty 88 accord. I check the car over and over to make sure its all ready for the trip but i have one fear. It was that i have a deadly knock in the engine. I had been hearing it for a while even before the weber, but it got worse. So i did some research on my own and found some not so good news, then i took it in to the shop and asked them to listen to the engine. They confirmed exactly what i thought. So i asked them about a rebuild and if they could get it done before my wedding/honeymoon. We talk for a few days and they give me a few options over the phone. I go with the most expensive option, because i want this car to last forever. A complete rebuild of my engine and allowing them to replace other parts with my approval first. We agree on rebuilding my engine. I send the car in. A few days later i go and pickup my stock cam, since i was sending it in for a regrind. I looked at my engine with the head off, it showed some good amount of wear. They ask me if i want to replace my original radiator, i told them yes since it was starting to become clogged inside. I insisted on a honda one even though they are twice the price, but they convinced me to go with the cheaper aftermarket one.

Now its the fun part. I get a call 10 days later saying its all done and this is the same day the van breaks down. I think to myself WOW that was fast, it took longer to put a carb on the engine than to rebuild the engine and put the carb on the engine. Thats some good service (sarcastic). The car drives fine, knocking gone, valve lash gone, sound good well not to good, i was looking the engine over again one night and i saw the engine code A20A3, i thought to myself that can't be, my car is a DX and carburated. So i post on here a someone tells me to look at my original window sticker to match the engine codes. Sure enough it says A20A1 and with a different serial number. Im mad but dont have the time do deal with it, so I do the proper break in and oil changes and were off on our trip. I stop at a grease monkey near pikes peak and get my oil changed on the trip. They come into the waiting room to tell me that my oil plug is stripped and showed me. I could also see that they were having a hard time getting it off also. I now get pretty mad since this is not my engine and now there are bad parts on it. I get back in town and fill up the oil since its low from leaking from the new seals they put in. I asked them about the engine and they didnt really say anything.

Yesterday. I was driving along in the highway and approach stop and go traffic. While stopped i notice smoke coming from the engine, i look at my temp guage and its near the top, so i pull over and open the hood. Can anyone guess where the coolant is leaking from. Its the radiator they put in and promised it would be fine.

Bottom line: I have paid that shop over 6,000 for repairs and a used car in the past 6 months and now i have no car at all because of them. I called them about the radiator and they said the radiator is most likely under warranty but not the labor. Needless to say im not having them touch my car again, even if its free. I now have doubts that they even rebuilt THE engine in my car. Its not my engine and thats not what i paid for or asked for. The oil leaks, radiator blew, oil plug stripped, who knows what else.

Gathering Evidence: Little do they know what kind of evidence i have if they dont agree with my terms. I want my money back for the engine, a new radiator, and my original engine back if possible. I have my phone to record every phone call, i have every phone call with them, verifying what i wanted, price estimates, time, dates, receipts, all past ownership work, original window sticker showing what engine should be in the car, and photos of towing.

I am thinking about finding yet another shop to take a look at the engine with me at their side to document it with their words and photos to see if the engine really was rebuilt. If not thats the nail in the coffin for them.

I am so tired of shops taking advantage of me and everyone else for that matter. I need your help in what to do next. Im not sure how to go about this, i feel that they will just make up a technical answer as to why i dont have my original block in there.

Cheeseburger
07-19-2008, 08:07 AM
Sounds like they just swapped another engine in there with out really rebuilding anything. If you have recites for the rebuild then you should be able to sue them and get your money back and some for your troubles.

russiankid
07-19-2008, 08:57 AM
Sounds like they just swapped another engine in there with out really rebuilding anything. If you have recites for the rebuild then you should be able to sue them and get your money back and some for your troubles.

Agreed. Them placing another engine in the car is already a question. Snoop around the engine bay, check for gaskets and such. Take the upper timing belt cover off and see if the camshaft seal looks new or old. I know on older engines the tabs on the headgasket are dirty and old looking, if they really rebuilt the engine it would have a new gasket. One issue is that they could have cleaned up the engine prior to putting it in, but you can still see if the engine was rebuilt or not.

From pictures I have seen from other members, everything under the valve cover was clean after a fresh rebuild, so take a look there as well through the oil fill hole.

nswst8
07-19-2008, 09:24 AM
This is what you need to do:

1. gather all your evidence put it in chonological order.

2. Write a letter stating what you want. And that your willing to enter a complaunt in small claims court. Be respectful in this letter, demanding but respectful.

3. Should they refuse file your complaint. Most small claims have adjusted their maximum claim amount to 7,500-10,000 so you should be covered.

With everything you have you should be able to recover everything you paid for. Based on the fact the car was all original and what you paid for.

Now there will be a statement issued by the court asking if this matter can be resolved out of court this is their last chance to settle out of court.

Should they refuse to settle continue with the suit.

Most places don't ever think that you will follow thru with your complaint, with everything that you have I would.

Case in point Statefarm insurance tried to lowball my family on a totaled car, we filed suit and when they got a copy of the complaint from the court they called to settle. We sued for thew maximum amount at that time $5,000 and they gave us $5,000.01 with out going to court.

Remember you will recover your court cost should you prevail. We did.

Good luck,

MessyHonda
07-19-2008, 10:03 AM
yeah sounds like a shop around here...my uncles turn signal assembly went out and they charged him 300 bucks for another one...the people were stupid cuz they went to the junkyard and put in a hatchback one because it had the rear wiper switch. he went back and said it was not the original one...the guy didnt want to give him his money back so he has never been back since. but yeah sounds like they just put on a fuel injected engine into your car.

redaztec
07-20-2008, 03:09 PM
Wow, sorry to hear about that. I hope you get your money and parts back without too much trouble. I had a similar bad experience with a shop recently too. I don't think I'll ever go back to any of these shops if I can at all avoid it.

ghettogeddy
07-20-2008, 04:06 PM
THE ONLY THING I SEE THERE THAT YOU MAY NOT GET YOUR MONEY BACK ON IS THE USED CAR IF IT WAS SOLD TO YOU ON AN AS IS BASSES YOUR LIABLE FOR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS AFTER THE FACT NOW IF YOU BOUHGT IT FROM A DEALER YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET A LEAMON LAW SUIT BUT THATS HARD TO SAY
http://www.lemonlawamerica.com/
edit: sorry about the caps i was half way through when i noticed it lol

Hauntd ca3
07-21-2008, 12:25 AM
tthe simple fact with the motor in the 3g is
you asked for a rebuild of the original motor and a new radiator and they agreed to undertake this work
they didnt undertake the work they agreed to and sounds like they just put in a jy special that failed
takem to small claims and get your $ back and go somewhere reputable
best of luck with it all
prob dont have a case for the trans in the van unless there was a sales agreement with some sort of warranty in it

w261w261
07-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Hopefully you have documentation stating that the job is going to be a rebuild and not some sort of swap/rebuild. Depending on your state, the Consumer Fraud division usually attached to the Attorney General's office can be helpful, as the shop may have committed a criminal fraud offense, and the possibility that they will be prosecuted with resultant loss of their license may motivate them to settle.

conozo
07-22-2008, 07:22 AM
I wasn't expecting to get anything with the van. I just wanted to state that the guy isnt trustworthy.

I do have evidence of a phone call stating that i want a rebuild of mine and not anything else.

I talked to my wife's uncle who is a lawyer and he said i could go to another shop and have them list everything that is inferior or broken on my current engine compared to my original engine. Then send them a letter stating what i want. If they dont comply then sue. But he said if they did rebuild the engine there isn't anything i can do about it being a different once since it "works" and is equivalent. But i just don't see how that is legal in any sense since that is not what i asked for or paid for.

ghettogeddy
07-22-2008, 07:30 AM
I wasnt expecting to get anything with the van. I just wanted to state that the guy isnt trustworthy.

I do have evidence of a phone call stating that i want i rebuild of mine and not anything else.

I talked to my wifes uncle who is a lawyer and he said i could go another shop and have them list everything that is inferior or broken on my current engine compared to my original engine. Then send them a letter stating what i want. If they dont comply then sue. But he said if they did rebuild the engine there isnt anything i can do about it being a different once since it "works" and is equivalent. But i just dont see how that is legal in any sense.

well i mean if they got into the block and it was more work then they needed to do

say the piston walls were gouged and need to be re bored out witch ment new pistons and so forth if they could have gotten by with a low mile block with the same pistons its equivalent

but i see your worries couse you have no idea what kind of millage this a20a3 had on it


and i bet the shop thought you would not notice the difference just makes you wounder how many other people got had by the same thing

nswst8
07-22-2008, 08:35 AM
I would base it off the fact that it is 20 years old and all original status as a antique collectable. One of Honda's most reliable sedans.

Plus if they did not contact you before a swap out instead of a rebuild they altered the contract with out notifying you.

2ndGenGuy
07-22-2008, 10:38 AM
Sometimes when you ask to get an engine rebuilt, they will send your engine back as a core and buy a rebuilt engine from someone who specializes in it. Outsourcing engine rebuilds is not something that I would think would be all that uncommon. What difference does it make so long as you got a rebuilt engine back in the car. That's probably why it was so quick.

anubix
09-09-2008, 12:04 PM
if you didn't get a jy special,
i'd put my money on them just dropping a jdm motor in your car.
it is a much more cost effective option to removing your old a20a1 then sending it off to a machine shop, waiting, then (ideally) getting a $100 aftermarket gasket kit and putting it all back in.
But I bet they didn't even use a gasket kit (if they did, it would be harder to tell the apparent wear on the engine)

SO

my dirty fingernails tell me to tell you:
look at your gaskets/seals.
particularly ones that tend to be rubber, cuz it breaks down quickest, really easy to tell if its brand new or not.
look at thermostat, thermostat housing gasket, distro o-ring, cam seal, etc
MOST IMPORTANT: CHECK OUT YOUR WATER PUMP!!!
-this will be most indicative: if its rusty and/or the impeller is gone
-oftentimes jdm engines get pulled in japan, and they have been sitting for close to 15-20 years or more, plenty of time for moisture they can't get out to eat it away

if you're water pump is trash (even if it looks nice on the outside)
then thats probabaly the best evidence you could want that you got a jdm or jy special.

Dr_Snooz
09-09-2008, 02:15 PM
I'm inclined to agree with 2ndGen. They probably just bought a rebuilt from a machine shop and swapped. I'll just take the devil's advocate position:

- The shop will say that they gave you a rebuilt motor as you requested. Their book says an A20A3 is acceptable, it's industry practice, etc.
- You'll have a hard time convincing the judge that you're driving a collector car when it's only worth a nominal value at best
- You're going to have a hard time finding a shop to help you sue another shop. They're all on the same team, remember
- You're going to spend a lot of time and money putting together a case that has every possibility of failing

Small claims judges want to know that you exhausted every option for resolution prior to suing. You want to be able to demonstrate that you made a lot of calls to the shop, talked to the boss and the boss' boss and finally sent a demand letter to the right people before suing. You really should call them and get their side of the story before taking them to court. If you really are going to keep the car forever, there will be future rebuilds where you can sort things out under the hood.

conozo
02-21-2009, 07:47 AM
So i finally talked to the boss of the shop. He hardly works there and he was never there when i had time to go in. So i bugged myself with an audio recorder. He said it sounds like an head gasket but if for any reason that the engine overheated then they wouldnt cover it. He said they put heat tabs on the engine and will look at those. But i find this maddening because they also replaced my entire cooling system a few months before and during the engine rebuild. I also beleive i have a recorded phone call of me describing to them that i dont want to worry about overheating so i want them to replace the cooling system which they did.

Also with regards to the different engine. I have a recorded phone call of them giving me a few options of how i want my engine fixed. Such as a rebuild, junk yard, etc. I specifically told them that i wanted MY engine rebuilt in which they agreed. But that is not what happened. At this point im not that upset about the fact that i may have a different rebuilt engine, but that is not what i asked or paid for. I paid for MY engine to be rebuilt in which they agreed to do.

Yes my phone automatically records every phone call and i have been intentionally collecting every piece of evidence i can against them.

Today i will go out and look at the heat tabs to see if they are melted. Any idea how many a shop usually installs?

RallyImp05
02-21-2009, 08:33 AM
one question... y did you put 6g into a 21 yea old honda in the first place???

lostforawhile
02-21-2009, 08:38 AM
one question... y did you put 6g into a 21 yea old honda in the first place???
why do any of us? it happens:D

conozo
02-21-2009, 09:22 AM
For one i didnt put 6g all in the honda. I've had other cars too. But also the rest of the car is in good shape. So i could either buy another car for $4000 and run into the same engine problems or i could put the money into my car and have it running like new for at least another 100,000 miles.

ghettogeddy
02-21-2009, 12:53 PM
one question... y did you put 6g into a 21 yea old honda in the first place???

why would someoone put 20k into a 40 year old chevy

same reasons i would guess doesent sound like alot now does it lol

plus most of us are here for the restoring of the 3g not to rice it out drive it to the ground ina month and buy a new car

Oldblueaccord
02-21-2009, 01:00 PM
So i finally talked to the boss of the shop. He hardly works there and he was never there when i had time to go in. So i bugged myself with an audio recorder. He said it sounds like an head gasket but if for any reason that the engine overheated then they wouldnt cover it. He said they put heat tabs on the engine and will look at those. But i find this maddening because they also replaced my entire cooling system a few months before and during the engine rebuild. I also beleive i have a recorded phone call of me describing to them that i dont want to worry about overheating so i want them to replace the cooling system which they did.

Also with regards to the different engine. I have a recorded phone call of them giving me a few options of how i want my engine fixed. Such as a rebuild, junk yard, etc. I specifically told them that i wanted MY engine rebuilt in which they agreed. But that is not what happened. At this point im not that upset about the fact that i may have a different rebuilt engine, but that is not what i asked or paid for. I paid for MY engine to be rebuilt in which they agreed to do.

Yes my phone automatically records every phone call and i have been intentionally collecting every piece of evidence i can against them.

Today i will go out and look at the heat tabs to see if they are melted. Any idea how many a shop usually installs?

Usually there the freeze plugs with some kinda tab on them. I think thats what Jasper does too.

Might want to check state laws on wire tapping and recording conversations. Not saying your doing wrong but alotta states it is not legal unless both parties agree to it. It might work in a lawsuit and it might not.


wp

ghettogeddy
02-21-2009, 01:02 PM
Usually there the freeze plugs with some kinda tab on them. I think thats what Jasper does too.

Might want to check state laws on wire tapping and recording conversations. Not saying your doing wrong but alotta states it is not legal unless both parties agree to it. It might work in a lawsuit and it might not.


wp

its normally only video but still you have to post a sign in peoples general view as they walk in a building

at least i believe thats calis law and if so were like the most anal state around

a swear one day cali is just gona be come its own country lol

Oldblueaccord
02-21-2009, 05:05 PM
I know your just going for post but I'll bite the bait.

http://www.pimall.com/nais/n.recordlaw.html


Conozo

I would look into a small claims court case,handle it your self.


wp

ghettogeddy
02-21-2009, 06:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws

guess i was off lol


but for him hes in a one party consent state so hes still in right i guess

and no im not going for post count and thats why i said im believe cause thats what i thought and thats what ive been told i did 0 searching on the topic

conozo
02-21-2009, 07:42 PM
i looked and found only one heat tab and it was not melted. I consider that pretty lucky since the car has overheated 4 times i believe, but each time i caught it early and stopped the car right away.

Layson
12-05-2009, 04:34 PM
So what happened??

DBMaster
12-06-2009, 01:19 PM
Finding a good mechanic is extremely hard, especially when you do everything yourself. I looked for a shop in 2003 when I wanted to beg off on replacing my oil pan gasket. The shop I use is truly the best. They are willing to talk me through things over the phone. A couple of times when I had the car in they noticed some issues. Danny, the owner of the shop, told me he knew I could fix those things myself and save some money so he recommended that. What a place! They often turn away 3G Accords because of the condition most are in, but he says he would work on my car any day of the week because it reminds him of when 3G's were new. They replaced my transmission this summer and did a great job. Danny's is also recommended on the Car Talk web site. You might want to check that out. I am sorry about your troubles. Most shop just don't understand owners who really know their vehicles. I think most of them would rather just deal with the ignorant.