HHO Gas Hybrid Accord

[Gemini2003]

I feel this topic needs a whole new thread:

HHO Hybrid conversion

Browns Gas or alternately known as HHO Gas is a realistic possibility for anyone's car!

It is TRUE that you cannot get more out energy out of something then you put in.

What I'm suggesting is a HHO/Normal gas HYBRID vehicle.

Everyone always says "it will never work" or "it takes more to makes browns gas then you get out of it"

I'm here to clarify one thing: I'm not suggesting getting something from nothing.

I'm suggesting using the excess power your car is creating every second and putting it to a GREAT use.

Our alternators are creating electricity every second. Not all of this electricity goes to use (especially if your not running a stereo system) or else we would not be able to charge our batteries... right?

SO...

Why not use some of our additional electricity to split Hydrogen and Oxygen from water? With the use of a HHO Fuel Cell you can create HHO gas on demand. Meaning that you do not need to install a tank to store this HHO gas.. Thus making it fairly safe to have in your vehicle. Once HHO gas combusts it turns back into Pure Water!

The process of making an HHO Fuel Cell is EASY. You can make a HHO fuel cell from items in your house! (I HAVE done this). In my first small scale test I used: a 1.5 liter Juice container (hard plastic), two nails (stainless steel), Two 4 foot lengths of wire (one for positive one for negative), a 12v car battery, some baking soda, a tube of silicone and a condom.

I put the nails in either side of the juice container so that the tips of the nails where almost touching (about 5 mm apart). Then I hooked the positive wire to one nail and the negative wire to the other nail (now the nails are Electrodes). I used silicone to seal the nail holes so that they would not leak. I then filled the juice container with tap water till about 2" above the nails. I then added the baking soda to the water (as an electrolyte). Next I put the condom on the top of the container (to see if I was generating any gas, obviously you can use a balloon but I only had jimmy hats lol).

After all that I connected the 12V Car battery and TADA! Bubbles started to form (and rise) on the negative and positive electrodes (hydrogen and oxygen) and then release to the top of the container...as soon as they hit the top of the water the Hydrogen and Oxygen combine (I'm not sure the type of mixture that's called) and the result is HHO gas.

This was my first attempt at creating a HHO fuel cell. It worked... but it didn't create very much gas at all... This is because I used nails and they have very little surface area. My other experiments used a larger surface area and yielded much more gas per minute.

Once you have created your HHO fuel cell you can then simply pipe the HHO gas into the clean air side of your air filter... thus going directly into your fuel/air mixture.

This will increase your gas mileage theoretically (I say theoretically as I have NOT tried this yet attached to my car yet) as the HHO will help fully complete the burn of the fossil fuel (regular gas) and the resulting emissions are substantially less.

I have seen reports of 20%-50% Fuel economy increase !!!!! and that is why I'm trying these experiments.... I'm up to my 3rd Experiment now... I've only been at it for a week and a bit.

I have a few concerns about rust... But I also know that propane cars have water coming out of their exhaust pips... so I don't know how long it would take for rust to effect the engine (if it even would)... I'm thinking the combusted hho would flow right into and out of the exhaust pipe...

[Gemini2003]

this doesn't work, the only really good fuel cell vehicle right now is a honda,but you have to fill it up with hydrogen. they spent over a billion developing the car,so i don't think some junkyard parts are going to do the trick. if you want to run it for almost nothing, put in a diesel engine and set it to run on used cooking oil,this has been done and proven.


all right heres some quotes from the idiot, if you don't think he's nuts,look at the part about the "megaton" water asteroids



Dear [name withheld],

The following is my opinion, and I recognize that others may think differently.

This potential problem of running cars on water and using so much water that it destroys the atmosphere and probably all life of Earth has been considered for over 30 years now.

In 1970, a company I consulted for in Canada invented a simple catalytic device to break water into hydrogen and oxygen so that it could be burned. After a great deal of thought, we destroyed the plans, thinking in the same way as some of you that it would eventually use up the world's supply of water and harm or destroy the Earth.

However, in recent times I have changed my mind, and here is why.

Temporary Measures

Foremost, the idea of running gasoline engines on water would only be used as a temporary measure and as a stepping-stone to far better technologies, which already exist and which would quickly replace this idea of running cars on water.

But until the strangle-hold of the oil companies is broken, these higher technologies will never come out, and the use of petroleum will continue. This is the consensus of the scientists that I have spoken with. What I have heard around the world is: "If we use the water car technology, this will open the way to even simpler and greater technologies that are clean and harmless."

Water Asteroids

Further, it has been found that the Earth's water supply is not static, as most of us have believed. The amount of water on Earth is increasing every day. In fact, it has been discovered in the last few years that vast amounts of water are daily arriving from space in the form of water asteroids! These huge, megaton water asteroids hit the upper atmosphere, immediately vaporize, and eventually settle down to Earth.

[Gemini2003]

I don't care about this guy!

Look up HHO gas in YouTube, or Browns gas in youtube or water hybrid in you tube.

This DOES work. I'm far from the only one doing this.

PLEASE if anyone is going to comment please think about it first and tell me WHY it doesn't work.

[Gemini2003]

becaue it's simple physics, it takes so much energy to convert to hydrogen, it's not worth it. you could do it but why? and your alternator is not going to have the energy to do this. as was as the water in the engine crap what a crock of shit

[Gemini2003]

We've got additonal power to burn in our cars!

Why not use the additional electricity (that would normally goto WASTE) to create HHO gas?

And why would you do this? To save money!!

Give me another week or so and I'll have some numbers to work with including the Amperage draw to power different Cells

[2ndGenGuy]

I'm not sure I see how the alternator is generating electricity that is going to waste. The alternator only outputs the amount of power based on the load being put on it. It's not sitting there generating electricity that is going to waste.

If you spin an alternator, and have no electrical load put on it (like a light) I'm pretty sure it's not going to do anything. No electricity generated, none wasted. The additional load placed on the alternator by the electrolysis machine will cause resistance on the alternator pulley and cause extra load on the engine.

The question is, is there enough energy in the "HHO" produced over time to help the engine overcome the extra load that the electrolysis cells, or whatever they are, put on the alternator. And is it going to be worth the cost of blowing up an alternator with all that load on it every year or so and taking the time to replace it?

Also WTF is HHO? Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen? Last I checked that was H2O or water.

http://www.lenntech.com/images/Water%20molecule.jpg

See... H H O. What's the difference? Why would you separate oxygen and hydrogen, and then recombine the hydrogen and oxygen in the air and get anything different? That's one of the reasons I call BS on this stuff, any time there are big catch words, or abbreviations that have absolutely no meaning...

And water in your tailpipe is normal on any car. It's just condensation building up in the pipes from the heating and cooling. That's why they say that you should get your car out once in a while and let it warm up to get the moisture out of everything. It keeps the exhaust from rusting.

[Gemini2003]

I wish i was better at science! I'm just an amature and don't know much about the why two atoms tie together....

I had the understanding that it was some kind of nuclear bond that is broken with the process of electrolysis.

Maybe this will help?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water



If you spin an alternator, and have no electrical load put on it (like a light) I'm pretty sure it's not going to do anything. No electricity generated, none wasted. The additional load placed on the alternator by the electrolysis machine will cause resistance on the alternator pulley and cause extra load on the engine.

The question is, is there enough energy in the "HHO" produced over time to help the engine overcome the extra load that the electrolysis cells, or whatever they are, put on the alternator. And is it going to be worth the cost of blowing up an alternator with all that load on it every year or so and taking the time to replace it?

And that's what I'm trying to figure out with my experiments... Can I generate enough HHO to actually save money?

I'm trying many different designs to see what the output of Gas will be.

[lostforawhile]

this has been tested and found not to work, it takes more then twice the energy to produce the hydrogen as what it creates. they build some little one person car one time,but it needed a gas generaior to create the power to make the hydrogen.

[lostforawhile]

and please don't create a new thread out of quotes from the old thread, you don't need two identical threads. :thumbdn:

[Gemini2003]

I was putting the past conversation (from the Convert you car to water thread) into this thread as a conversation starter ... but thanks :ugh2:

Can you please tell me how to find those results? I would like to read more.

[AccordB20A]

me and alex (3gcvc) have allready looked into this. Bought a few jars with lids and are going to give it a go.
Aparently you need to be able to tune your car. make the mixture leaner. and this gas will aparently make the mixture cooler so you can run leaner mixtures and therefore save gas. providing it doesnt suck too much power and use more than its making. either way we are trying it out and seeing if it will work

[2ndGenGuy]

Nothing wrong with giving it a try. I mean hell, it's all really a learning experience just like anything else. Even thought it probably won't work, doesn't seem like a whole lot of money invested into it, unless you really start building huge electrolysis machines in the back of your car.

I personally don't think that 12volts and 60-90 amps, or whatever these cars are capable of generating are enough to generate a good supply of hydrogen from water.

No doubt there's SOME grounding in science in this, but I do believe that people have been trying to get fuel from water for the last 100 years, and have been largely unsuccessful. I think this hype has been mostly generated by the recent increase in the price of oil.

If there is any way to get power from water, you should check out Crower's Six-Stroke engine. Basically an added steam stroke into the normal 4 stroke engine cycle. Water is injected into the combustion chamber, and the water turns to steam due to the extreme temperatures. The water cools the engine AND adds power via steam. I imagine it's got some torque addition potential as well as reducing the complexity of the cooling system and recuding the usage of fuel for the same amount of power. Basically it's reusing wasted heat energy.

And... LOL @ Water Asteroids

[A18A]

I didn't read much of the thread, but what if you just run it off a spare battery, that you just charge every now, that way you dont drain the cars power.. and worst that happens if you dont charge it is you return to stock mileage, or if you're gonna run lean like accordb20a said, melt your pistons :D

[Gemini2003]

I just ran my third test.

Not sufficient gas production...yet...

I'm going to adjust the amount of electrolyte (baking soda in this case) in the water. Add more to hopefully get more of a result.

For my third experiment I've used 4 stainless steel plates with about 2" square of surface area a piece (due to poor design). They are spaced about 2-3 mm apart. I'm using a Rubbermaid container with about a 2 liter capacity. I used about a tablespoon worth of baking soda.

2 Tablespoons is next. Probably in an hour or so is when I'll try.


It's good to hear there are more people willing to give this a shot! All I suggest is if at first you don't succeed try and try again... already with my third design I'm getting more gas production. Even if this doesn't work i'm into it for less then $50 :-)

My friend has also done this. His take was using Welding electrodes... thick one for the positive surrounded by smaller electrodes for the negatives. I've bought some Welding electrodes and I'm going to try his design as well.


I didn't read much of the thread, but what if you just run it off a spare battery, that you just charge every now, that way you dont drain the cars power.. and worst that happens if you dont charge it is you return to stock mileage, or if you're gonna run lean like accordb20a said, melt your pistons :D

I don't know what kind of drain on the battery I'm experiencing yet... I don't have a multimeter... but I'll be borrowing one soon to work out some numbers.


me and Alex (3gcvc) have already looked into this. Bought a few jars with lids and are going to give it a go.
Apparently you need to be able to tune your car. make the mixture leaner. and this gas will apparently make the mixture cooler so you can run leaner mixtures and therefore save gas. providing it doesn't suck too much power and use more than its making. either way we are trying it out and seeing if it will work

I'm inclined to agree. Cars that have more tuning ability will get better results from this setup. But even are cars will benefit. As long as we can lean out the fuel mixture we should be good :-)

[Vanilla Sky]

The biggest problem is that an alternator doesn't produce any "extra" or "wasted" energy. If it did, you'd have an overcharged battery spewing all over your engine bay.

The conversions don't work out. This is free energy, perpetual motion. You'd never produce more fuel than needed, ever, period. Even if there is a very good energy conversion rate, using your charging system to produce your fuel will never be able to keep up.

If you could pressurize and store the HHO, then you're on to something. You'd have to produce and store your HHO to be loaded onto your car.

[Gemini2003]

I'm not really suggesting free energy, again I'm an armature at this.... but: Why if I can run my 2000 watt stereo system for hours on end in my car and not notice a fuel economy hit? and if that's the case why not put that power into this electrolysis unit and gain fuel economy? and really I'm only talking a 20%-40% at most.

[Vanilla Sky]

How much of the time are you actually producing that much wattage? Run a sine wave for an hour and come back and let me know what kind of strain that puts on your system, and in turn, how much it affects your fuel economy.

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.

Energy can not be made, only changed from one state to another. Changing states requires energy itself.

[Gemini2003]

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.


I agree but electric water pumps, AC compressors, and electric power steering pumps don't contribute to the burning of fuel in your motor. Perhaps the Hydrogen added to the combustion gives a bigger bang and more power? or if not more power then maybe the same power but using 20-30% less gasoline? Thus improving the gasoline fuel economy and improving toxic emissions.


What amperage in your opinion would be an acceptable load (is that the correct terminology?) on your motor to gain 20% increase in fuel economy?

If I could loose 10-15 HP out of my motor to gain 30% even 20% fuel economy I probably would do it :-)

[lostforawhile]

How much of the time are you actually producing that much wattage? Run a sine wave for an hour and come back and let me know what kind of strain that puts on your system, and in turn, how much it affects your fuel economy.

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.

Energy can not be made, only changed from one state to another. Changing states requires energy itself.He doesn't understand that concept, laws of physics don't fit his theory so he ignores them. don't even bother trying to explain it to him

[lostforawhile]

I will try to explain this to him one more time, you can not create energy. the energy that is stored in the hydrogen you create required energy to break it down, the alternator would have to have worked harder to produce more current to break down the water,this uses more fuel which is more energy,this also creates more heat,which is more lost energy, then you have the weight of the water which the engine has to work harder to move around, mores lost energy in work and in heat wasted. you CANNOT take the energy of the fuel and use it to produce energy in a different form, and end up with a net gain. energy is lost in the transfer from one form to another,also a lot of heat energy is lost converting the water to it's components, in the case of a fuel cell as in a spacecraft this heat would be used in the craft. but not in a car. you cannot get more energy then you started with, this myth is also prevelant about electric cars, oh free cars no emissions,where do you think the electricity comes from? energy doesn't just appear it's transferred

[lostforawhile]

I agree but electric water pumps, AC compressors, and electric power steering pumps don't contribute to the burning of fuel in your motor. Perhaps the Hydrogen added to the combustion gives a bigger bang and more power? or if not more power then maybe the same power but using 20-30% less gasoline? Thus improving the gasoline fuel economy and improving toxic emissions.


What amperage in your opinion would be an acceptable load (is that the correct terminology?) on your motor to gain 20% increase in fuel economy?

If I could loose 10-15 HP out of my motor to gain 30% even 20% fuel economy I probably would do it :-)anything electric on the motor causes the engine to work harder and burn more fuel,theres no free gain. the field current in the alternator increases making it harder and harder to turn as it produces more energy. this takes more power and fuel from the engine. it takes opposing magnetic forces to create electricity. this takes energy.i explained this before you cannot create a net gain from an energy source. yo cannot produce more energy then you started with,.

[Gemini2003]

I guess I'm just going to have to try it. I understand what your trying to say to me but I need to try it before i can believe anything. I just need to. Call me a fool or not a few more experiments and we will see.

[lostforawhile]

TerraPass blog
Does the “water-powered car” really work?
Adam Stein
Yes, but the water has to come from unicorn tears.
by Adam Stein – July 8, 2008



Unsurprisingly, inevitably, rising gas prices have brought increased interest in the water-powered car. Is there really a simple technology that can dramatically boost the efficiency of conventional cars or, better yet, allow you to run your car entirely on tap water?

No. No, there is not.

I don’t want to belabor this topic,1 and as it happens, the available information about various water-powered car schemes is scant enough that they’re generally hard to debunk fully. A couple of points do bear mentioning, though:

* Water is not a fuel.2 And not just because we aren’t clever enough to turn it into one. Water simply doesn’t carry chemical energy in the way that gasoline does. Consider: when you touch a match to water, it fails to explode. You can drink all the water you want without gaining weight.3 This isn’t a technology issue, it’s just a fundamental property of water.4
* Some of the so-called “water-powered” cars are simply cheating: they use another fuel that releases energy upon contact with water. Or they use a charged battery as an energy input. It is accurate to say that such cars do not run on gasoline. It is inaccurate to say that such cars are “powered” by water. Invariably, whatever it is they are really running on is expensive and/or hard to come by. (If you’re interested in learning more about the role that water can play in the energy cycle, check out our toy fuel cell cars.)
* The water-powered car kits commonly advertised on the internet claim to use water to boost the efficiency of a conventional gasoline engine. This isn’t an inherently crackpot notion, and in fact a quick search turns up some non-crazy people who have done research suggesting that electrolyzed water can improve the performance of internal combustion engines. The problem is that the web sites selling the car kits generally are completely crackpot, offering up a stew of conspiracy theory, outlandish claims, and typographical errors that fairly screams scam.

Even if you’re not hep to the science — and frankly, I’m not sure it’s even possible to untangle the technical claims being made on these web sites — a little common sense does go a long way. Some questions to ponder the next time some asks for your credit card number:

* Does it sound too good to be true? Put another way, why isn’t everyone in the world doing it already? Why doesn’t the military run its Humvees on “HHO gas”? Why hasn’t Detroit blown away those pesky CAFE standards with a water-powered SUV?
* Is there an elaborate conspiracy theory involved? Of course there is! The reason that water-powered cars haven’t taken over our roadways is that the inventor, Stan Meyer, was killed by winged monkeys in 1998.5 Although authorities refused to pursue an investigation, security camera footage revealed a shirtless Dick Cheney fleeing the scene. Here’s the thing, though: except in bad movies, you can’t derail a technology by killing its inventor, particularly a technology that is described in great detail on the world wide web.
* Do the claims involve pseudoscientific jargon? Like HHO gas, perhaps?
* Are there any credible companies or research organizations touting the technology? When Google funds a company building water-powered cars, perhaps we can start to get excited about the prospect of filling up at the tap.

Footnotes

1. But inevitably I will.
2. I’m setting aside any consideration of nuclear fusion, for the simple reason that such technology doesn’t presently exist. Maybe in a hundred years or so I’ll have to update this post.
3. Well, you’ll gain water weight, at least until your kidneys are able to catch up with your mouth.
4. Consider that water is actually a waste product from the burning of other types of fuels. Claiming to run a car on water is a bit like claiming to have invented a car that can run on dead batteries. It just doesn’t make sense.
5. Actually, Stan died in 1998 of an aneurysm, only a few years after being convicted of “gross and egregious fraud” for making false claims about…water-powered cars.

[AccordB20A]

it doesnt take much power. It sure as isnt going to draw 60 amps. more like 5amps not even that.
using a certain grade stainless wire anyways. I understand it works as an addictive to the existing air/fuel mixture. it will make the fuel burn more efficiently. i read that you let the gas flow into your intake it will make the combustion in the clinder more complete. and u can run a leaner mixture because of this.

but no one i know can confirm this. its what i have only read. a mate with some scientific background seems to think it will work. There is no way that you car will run purely off it, but its only meant to be an additive to give you a few more MPG

Ill believe this works when i see it. thats why we are going to give it a go. with the fuel prices in NZ i need something to make my gas last longer. Hope it works ha

[lostforawhile]

it doesnt take much power. It sure as isnt going to draw 60 amps. more like 5amps not even that.
using a certain grade stainless wire anyways. I understand it works as an addictive to the existing air/fuel mixture. it will make the fuel burn more efficiently. i read that you let the gas flow into your intake it will make the combustion in the clinder more complete. and u can run a leaner mixture because of this.

but no one i know can confirm this. its what i have only read. a mate with some scientific background seems to think it will work. There is no way that you car will run purely off it, but its only meant to be an additive to give you a few more MPG

Ill believe this works when i see it. thats why we are going to give it a go. with the fuel prices in NZ i need something to make my gas last longer. Hope it works ha

but any current you draw makes the alternator work harder,which takes more fuel and wasted more energy as heat. you also lose a lot of heat and energy converting to another form of energy,this is called conversion loss. you cannot get a net gain because of these losses. any change of energy from one state to another uses energy. it' s the reason perpetual motion doesn't work, you always have losses no matter what. the losses will cancel any gains in the engine.

[AccordB20A]

i know exactly what your getting at, its like using a motor powering a generator to spin that motor again and trying to power a light off it aswell.
we going to try anyway. no harm done in trying

[Accordtheory]

I guess I'm just going to have to try it. I understand what your trying to say to me but I need to try it before i can believe anything. I just need to. Call me a fool or not a few more experiments and we will see.

Fool. Do you really think that you're going to be able to outsmart the rest of the world. Not to mention,with some improvised bullshit you just pulled out of your ass without any understanding of physics, or basic laws of science?
To establish credibility for myself, not like I give a fuck, but I was of of the first people to tubo their 3g, and then one of the 1st people to swap in a b series with my own fabricated mounts/harness/etc. I've also built engines, turbosystems, etc. So I've put my time in on this site, and can talk shit freely now, if so desired.
I also have a lot of backround info on a lot of other shit, including in electronics, and general science.
Basically, your attitude is what's wrong with people's bullshit about "water powered cars", etc. They don't know shit, so they don't know to question.

How many watts is one horsepower? What is a horsepower? What is a watt? What is a volt? What is an ampere? I bet you know not one of those. Yet you're willing to put this bullshit on here? Lokk this shit up wikipedia or something, wtf.
What the fuck is the conversion efficiency of the alternator itself. You think energy is "free"?? You think the iacv doesn't open more when you turn on your headlights, defrost, stereo, or a/c? I bet you don't even know what the the iacv is.
What is the conversion efficiency of the most efficient process of converting h20 to hho? Whatever the fuck hho is anyway. Regardless, even if the conversion efficiency was 100%, guess what, the efficiency of burning that Again in your motor is only about 20%. That's right. Burn the gas, waste it, burn it again, waste more! imagine that. Only a further reduction in efficiency. What I can't imagine is the attitude of people who don't know shit and yet think they can contribute to a scientific field. I just don't get it.
You want to advance the field, Learn!!! Water cars. Only fucking retards who don't know shit (And don't want to learn) have a chance at being sold on that.
Educate yourself, please!!! Don't be one of those people!
Ultra high energy density capacitors + fuel cells + electric motors= the future.
Fuck it.
If something sounds like complete bullshit, guess what, it is!

[2ndGenGuy]

:stupid:

[Vanilla Sky]

Build your system, then dyno the car. Any gain will show as a gain in power, not a loss.

Now, if we wanted to look into water injection for fuel economy, then we have something most of us can agree on. You'd be injecting water in place of a small percentage of fuel. You're not burning every bit of fuel you push through your injectors. Some of that is used to lower the combustion temp. Water has the same effect, when used in exact amounts.

The problem is we're talking about water as fuel, not water as a displacement for fuel.

[Oldblueaccord]

Guys your mis applying the law of Thermo dynamics here. Think of HHO gas as adding Nitrious to a car. It makes more power. There is nothing free about it but it does make your engine output higher.

How it makes more power is more then an interest to me then anything.


Gemini just be careful the gas is very explosive and be wary of shorts with the power wires I would have them fused.

If it were me I would just buy a small tank of H gas and try it that way before messing with the electrolysis on car.

The setup I am fimiliar with is that set of plans you get off the internet that has a float to stop the reaction and keeps the gas under some pressure.

wp

[lostforawhile]

I think what he's saying is he wants a net gain of energy,if you are using the energy in the car to convert to another form of energy that takes power and it creates loss in the process. so impossible. if you were to bottle hydrogen and then add it you could increase power, but the energy to make that hydrogen has to come from somewhere,so theres no gain. also i WOULD NOT be screwing with hydrogen trying to make power with junkyard parts. you can be killed. it has no odor and it's invisible, and it has the highest energy of any gas. in other words it can kill you. My dad worked for year for linde air industrial gasses,so i learned a lot about hydrogen. even a small amount can cause a huge explosion. as far as this hho or whatever,thats not even a real term, it's made up, it's hydrogen plain and simple. if you break down water you get hydrogen and oxygen.not a combination of the two. if they were combined it would be h20 which is water. there is no such thing as hh20. think of it this way,even a small amount of hydrogen around your battery and a spark can blow it to bits. now drive around with an uncrashworthy tank of this shit in your car, sound like fun? the hydrogen cars on the road today are supposed to have tanks that can survive a crash, i'm waiting to see how popular they are after the first tank rupture in a crash. they would make a gas explosion look like a match in comparison.

[lostforawhile]

Oh my god, i just watched the news story about the guy who says he can burn salt water. and the news anchor is all excited,whoop de do. he puts a beaker of salt water in a huge ass microwave generator, then lights off the vaporized calcium salts. ooooo the water burns. nice magic trick. but it takes a huge microwave generator that weighs thousands of pounds and takes god knows how much current, and people are all amazed the water burns!!! it's the answer to all our problems!! this is why we rate so low in the world in science. people in this country will believe anything.

[A18A]

^if he managed to make it into a small device, i would think he would disappear off the face of this earth :)


Burn the gas, waste it, burn it again, waste more! imagine that.
hehe when i read that i thought of this:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff119/williamsnc/dei.jpg

[lostforawhile]

^if he managed to make it into a small device, i would think he would disappear off the face of this earth :)


hehe when i read that i thought of this:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff119/williamsnc/dei.jpgcool now sell it to the media figure heads.if you add an electric motor to turn the engine you can prove it works!! a gas hybrid electric that produces no emissions!! only have to charge the battery lol

[lostforawhile]

heres another idiot,dam this country is full of first grade science flunkies
Water Powered Car and HHO?

I was interested in looking at the claims for the water power car.
I found something new had indeed been discovered. We have been taught that chemical bonds are a result of electostatic forces.
HHO is a magnicule,represented by the structure (H × H)–O . The spinning electon around each of the H's (protons) creates a miniscule magnetic field. These electrons are spinning in opposite directions creating, in effect two minature bar magnets aligned with opposing (attracting) poles.
This magnetic bond is much weaker than an electrostatic one allowing for easy decomposition. HHO burns readily producing a very hot flame.
HHO is created in a process of electrolysis.
As for claims that water powered cars are possible, this is only partially true. Hybrids burning both HHO and fuel at the same time do allow for greater fuel ecconomy. This is primarly because it's possible to run the car on a weaker mixture. It also produces a cleaner exhaust.
The process of electrolysis and burning of HHO is shown in the clip that I found. It seems to show that the process is very efficient.

HELLO!! MAGNETISM AND ELECTRICITY can't be seperated,they are the same thing dumbass. and there is no HHO despite what a lot of brain dead people think. electrolysis produces two seprate gasses, hydrogen and oxygen, they don't combine themselves into some other gas. just like they float around in the atmosphere as two seperate gasses. who comes up with this shit. this thread is getting funny

[gp02a0083]

ive been following HHO suff pretty closely, a guy on youtube who is documenting everything( Zerofossilfuel) its very interesting that by electrolysis you can use as fuel. However still thermodynamics comes into play and so does conservation of energy so there has to be a trade off to this( either exothermic heat is generated , you cant get more energy out of a system than you put in). From what ive seen this guy uses a sodium hydroxide/water bath with a plate block and about 10 volts. im actually considering trying to build a HHO generator and see if i can use it to run say a leaf blower or small RC car engine

[lostforawhile]

ive been following HHO suff pretty closely, a guy on youtube who is documenting everything( Zerofossilfuel) its very interesting that by electrolysis you can use as fuel. However still thermodynamics comes into play and so does conservation of energy so there has to be a trade off to this( either exothermic heat is generated , you cant get more energy out of a system than you put in). From what ive seen this guy uses a sodium hydroxide/water bath with a plate block and about 10 volts. im actually considering trying to build a HHO generator and see if i can use it to run say a leaf blower or small RC car engine
it's hydrogen not hho,thats whats burning,when you break down water it becomes hydrogen and oxygen, if it had two hydrogen atoms it actually would be radioactive. just be very careful a hydrogen leak can cause a huge explosion. enough to blind you or severely burn you. i'm waiting for someone on here to get hurt, not stuff you want to play with. i hope no one does,but i have the feeling it's going to happen. also when hydrogen is burning it's invisible, you can't see it,

[lostforawhile]

just so you know how dangerous the hydrogen gas you are playing with is, go to this page and look at this battery explosion, it's just a small amount of hydrogen that blew this battery to bits. http://www.rayvaughan.com/battery_safety.htm

[Gemini2003]

I can't break my thought pattern that if I can cause less draw (or the same) in total from my system then my high powered stereo currently pulls and get a decent fuel economy boost, I would do it hands down.

I don't pretend to know anything! I have stated that many times that I am an amateur and anyone here thinking I'm talking truth and believes me blindly is a fool.

I am being careful.

I'm still going to try all my experiments. I need to prove it to myself.

[Accordtheory]

"Prove" it on paper, Not with your car. Show us the math here. Every part of each equation will show a net energy loss. Damn, you are a stubborn, stubborn person.

I'm now going to look up the hp of running a motor on hydrogen vs gasoline. I strongly suspect that's bullshit too. Most gasses cause in reduction in hp, since they displace more 02 than the liquid fuel to get the right a/f ratio.

[Accordtheory]

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.



Actually, the reason more accessories like power steering pumps, a/c compressors, etc aren't driven by electricity is the modern car's absolutely retarded 12volt electrical system. That might have been acceptable in the '60s, but it's 2008 now, wtf.
Check it out. Say you need 5 hp to run the a/c system. If I remember correctly, 1hp is about 740 watts. So 3700/13.8=268 amps. Trying to move that much amperage requires incredibly thick wiring, to not incur significant power loss through the wire itself. Even 48+volt electrical system isn't really enough to run most of the more power hungry accessories.

[Accordtheory]

You guys watch, I'm going to kill this whole thread.

[lostforawhile]

"Prove" it on paper, Not with your car. Show us the math here. Every part of each equation will show a net energy loss. Damn, you are a stubborn, stubborn person.

I'm now going to look up the hp of running a motor on hydrogen vs gasoline. I strongly suspect that's bullshit too. Most gasses cause in reduction in hp, since they displace more 02 than the liquid fuel to get the right a/f ratio.
you are correct it takes more of a gas type fuel to power a vechcle then a liquid type fuel. and is that a promise to close this thread? please please do. :)

[Accordtheory]

Guys your mis applying the law of Thermo dynamics here. Think of HHO gas as adding Nitrious to a car. It makes more power. There is nothing free about it but it does make your engine output higher.

How it makes more power is more then an interest to me then anything.


Not true, sorry, dude. The 2 things are completely different, and "hho" doesn't add power at all. Nitrous, N20, is an oxidizer. Look it up on wikipedia, the combustion temp breaks the bonds between the N and O, and then the O recombines with the HC as a more exothermic reaction.

Putting hydrogen into your combustion chamber only displaces air, since it takes up more space than the liquid gasoline, you end up displacing available oxygen and losing power. I just read about 10 articles to confirm this on yahoo. It's about 15% less, supposedly. And at stoichiometric the hydrogen car emits more oxides of nitrogen than a gasoline car, wtf. So they don't even tune hydrogen internal combustion motors to run anywhere near stoich, and take a hell of a lot bigger power hit than 15%. Nice, huh?

[Accordtheory]

you are correct it takes more of a gas type fuel to power a vechcle then a liquid type fuel. and is that a promise to close this thread? please please do. :)

I'm not a moderator, so all I can do is try to kill it with info. You've done a good job with your posts though, I wouldn't want to just erase all of them, if I could delete the thread..

[OldSkoolA20accord]

I run E85 in my DX! :thumbup:



Thread is stupid.

[Oldblueaccord]

Not true, sorry, dude. The 2 things are completely different, and "hho" doesn't add power at all. Nitrous, N20, is an oxidizer. Look it up on wikipedia, the combustion temp breaks the bonds between the N and O, and then the O recombines with the HC as a more exothermic reaction.

Putting hydrogen into your combustion chamber only displaces air, since it takes up more space than the liquid gasoline, you end up displacing available oxygen and losing power. I just read about 10 articles to confirm this on yahoo. It's about 15% less, supposedly. And at stoichiometric the hydrogen car emits more oxides of nitrogen than a gasoline car, wtf. So they don't even tune hydrogen internal combustion motors to run anywhere near stoich, and take a hell of a lot bigger power hit than 15%. Nice, huh?

Well Accordtheroy I try to be helpful in all your post. I never really liked you and by your responses using Cali logic,calling people fools and using the F-word I think your correct this post will get locked.


wp

[lostforawhile]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff119/williamsnc/dei.jpg[/QUOTE]

I still think the direct exaust injection i the way to go, uses zero fuel and produces no emissions. :lol:

[Vanilla Sky]

Actually, the reason more accessories like power steering pumps, a/c compressors, etc aren't driven by electricity is the modern car's absolutely retarded 12volt electrical system. That might have been acceptable in the '60s, but it's 2008 now, wtf.
Check it out. Say you need 5 hp to run the a/c system. If I remember correctly, 1hp is about 740 watts. So 3700/13.8=268 amps. Trying to move that much amperage requires incredibly thick wiring, to not incur significant power loss through the wire itself. Even 48+volt electrical system isn't really enough to run most of the more power hungry accessories.


Very true. I think the biggest reason is stubborness by the car manufacturers. Going to higher voltages can save money in the long run by using less copper.

Thanks for catching me on something, it's good to be corrected sometimes, keeps the ego in check.



Oh, and HHO, as we're referring to, is a term referring to "Brown's gas," as can be seen here: http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgashome.html

[Oldblueaccord]

yeah the 42 volt standard is coming.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_n8_v178/ai_21075825/pg_2

I posted something about it here in regards to this a few years ago

http://www.boosthead.com/product.php

But it went totally over some peoples (Smufguy) head. I think you will see more of these type setups.


wp

[cygnus x-1]

Wow, I've been missing all the fun!


I've done a bit of web research on this previously so maybe I can help clarify some things.

Alternators and electrical power:
The power output of an alternator is dependent on the load connected to it. Assuming an output voltage of 12V, a 12ohm resistor (or load) will draw 1 amp of current. E=IxR. Voltage = current x resistance. a 1 ohm resistor will draw 12 amps of current. The alternator will supply however much current the load requires until the maximum current output of the alternator is exceeded. At this point the voltage will start dropping. The mechanical load that an alternator puts on the engine will be roughly proportional to the output of the alternator. So if the total electrical load on the alternator is 746 Watts (1HP), the engine power needed to spin the alternator will be 746 Watts, plus whatever energy is lost due to mechanical friction internal to the alternator and resistance of the alternator windings.


HHO gas:
HHO gas is a mixture of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2) with a molar ratio of 2:1. It's what you get when you electrolyze water. Nothing really special about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen


What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|

[Accordtheory]

Well Accordtheroy I try to be helpful in all your post. I never really liked you and by your responses using Cali logic,calling people fools and using the F-word I think your correct this post will get locked.


wp

Hey, he said "Call me a fool or not", go back and look at his post, so I called him a fool.
Cali logic? I live in south dakota.
And I just like th F-word, I guess.
I didn't mean to offend, you if you don't like me, that's fine. I seek to destroy bullshit and reveal the truth, if I offend people along the way, so be it. However, I do know you gained knowledge from reading my post where I quoted you.
So hate me or not, you still learned something. Isn't that why you post on tech forums in the first place? If you second guess what I said, go ahead, look it up. This isn't an ego contest to me, I do this shit for other people. Do I get anything out of this? No. Does anyone on this forum personally know me? No. Do I benefit from this in any way? Not other than to clarify my own thoughts on the subjects I post on. When I post, it's about cutting out the bullshit myths, misconceptions, lies, marketing bs, etc, in favor of what is really true, and what really works. I'm not going to post something if I am not already familiar with it or at least haven't looked it up on yahoo or wikipedia. And while I admit they might be offensive, I still put a lot of research and effort into the info in my posts.

So why don't you raise Your game up and just post more legit info yourself, instead of saying you "never really liked me", wtf.

[AccordB20A]

What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|

about time someone told these people its real use

[Gemini2003]

Two things:

ONE:
I asked to be called a fool, so the fact two people did doesn't bother me.

TWO:


Wow, I've been missing all the fun!
What it does (supposedly):
IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

C|

This is exactly what I am trying to do. I'm very sorry if I have explained it wrong but that sums it up... I just want more efficiency.

[lostforawhile]

Wow, I've been missing all the fun!


I've done a bit of web research on this previously so maybe I can help clarify some things.

Alternators and electrical power:
The power output of an alternator is dependent on the load connected to it. Assuming an output voltage of 12V, a 12ohm resistor (or load) will draw 1 amp of current. E=IxR. Voltage = current x resistance. a 1 ohm resistor will draw 12 amps of current. The alternator will supply however much current the load requires until the maximum current output of the alternator is exceeded. At this point the voltage will start dropping. The mechanical load that an alternator puts on the engine will be roughly proportional to the output of the alternator. So if the total electrical load on the alternator is 746 Watts (1HP), the engine power needed to spin the alternator will be 746 Watts, plus whatever energy is lost due to mechanical friction internal to the alternator and resistance of the alternator windings.


HHO gas:
HHO gas is a mixture of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2) with a molar ratio of 2:1. It's what you get when you electrolyze water. Nothing really special about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen


What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|OK PEOPLE,THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HHO,the guy who tried to sell the water car made it up. and a bunch of people believed it. there is NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when you run an electric current through water, you get two totally sepreate elements, hydrogen and oxygen. you don't get some magical gas caled hho, you get two different gasses. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing. they become two differnet elements just like they do in the atmosphere. when you combine them together you get water. didn't anyone take science in school? this is very simple hho is a made up name to sell crap,thats it!! someone please dear god close this thread. :thumbdn:

[Accordtheory]

. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing.

Yeah, the educated person would have to do quite a few lines of unicorn dust before they'd buy into this bullshit..:)

As far as the increase in efficiency from running lean vs the energy expended to create the hydrogen to do so, it doesn't take much math to realize this won't work, people.
Every time you transfer energy, you lose some of it. Look at what you're doing here. Mechanical (crankshaft) to electrical (alternator) to chemical (splitting the h20) to combustion(at most 20% thermodynamic efficiency)<<<<<<than the what, 2% increase you'd get from adding the small % of "hho"?
Come on people, for fuck's sake!!!!!

[Accordtheory]

Hey, maybe we should start selling the unicorn dust on 3geez..that might actually sell, unlike my last turbo manifold..

[lostforawhile]

the closest thing you will get to this,is hondas new hydrogen car, it has an appliance like a furnace that goes in your garage, this creates hydrogen gas to fill the car, it is also designed to help power your home and heat water. it's already designed and tested and will be on the market soon.

[2ndGenGuy]

Ahaha this is one of the most epic threads ever. Why would any mod in their right mind want to delete this sort of entertainment?

[Ichiban]

Wow, using wasted power that your alternator doesn't create, to electrolyze water that you have to use fuel to carry around, into H2 and O2, in order to burn and recover only a percentage of the energy used to create it? Bullshit.

Also, the people that "destroyed their plans" because their water car was going to use up all the water on earth? Come on, people. When you combust H2, it reacts with O2 to become water again. In theory, complete combustion of hydrocarbons (gasoline) should produce CO2, and H20.

[lostforawhile]

Wow, using wasted power that your alternator doesn't create, to electrolyze water that you have to use fuel to carry around, into H2 and O2, in order to burn and recover only a percentage of the energy used to create it? Bullshit.

Also, the people that "destroyed their plans" because their water car was going to use up all the water on earth? Come on, people. When you combust H2, it reacts with O2 to become water again. In theory, complete combustion of hydrocarbons (gasoline) should produce CO2, and H20.
yea the new honda car appliance uses natural gas to get the hydrogen from. plus it powers your house,pretty cool huh?

[A18A]

people should instead find out ways to save money else where, like that thing that powers your house^ or whatever, and use the money you saved on petrol, you might be surprised how much extra mileage you get :)

[lostforawhile]

people should instead find out ways to save money else where, like that thing that powers your house^ or whatever, and use the money you saved on petrol, you might be surprised how much extra mileage you get :)it powers your house plus creates hydrogen for your hydrogen powered honda and creates hot water. already for sale in japan

[cygnus x-1]

OK PEOPLE,THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HHO,the guy who tried to sell the water car made it up. and a bunch of people believed it. there is NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when you run an electric current through water, you get two totally sepreate elements, hydrogen and oxygen. you don't get some magical gas caled hho, you get two different gasses. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing. they become two differnet elements just like they do in the atmosphere. when you combine them together you get water. didn't anyone take science in school? this is very simple hho is a made up name to sell crap,thats it!! someone please dear god close this thread. :thumbdn:


Who said it was anything other than a just mixture of gasses? You are absolutely correct. It is simply a mixture of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas in a 2:1 ratio. Nothing less and nothing more. The fact that someone made up a fancy name for it means nothing. You can call it whatever you want, "HHO", "Super Happy Fun Gas", or "a 2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen". What does it matter?

And for the record, I know nothing about the water powered car. The name "HHO" may very well have been made up by the same person that made up the water powered car, but that doesn't mean anything. If it really bothers you I shall start calling it "a 2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen".


C|

[cygnus x-1]

As far as the increase in efficiency from running lean vs the energy expended to create the hydrogen to do so, it doesn't take much math to realize this won't work, people.
Every time you transfer energy, you lose some of it. Look at what you're doing here. Mechanical (crankshaft) to electrical (alternator) to chemical (splitting the h20) to combustion(at most 20% thermodynamic efficiency)<<<<<<than the what, 2% increase you'd get from adding the small % of "hho"?
Come on people, for fuck's sake!!!!!


Good. This tells me that at least one person understands the concept and is thinking from a systems perspective. And this is the big question.

Will the efficiency improvement gained from being able to run very lean mixtures, offset the energy used to create the "2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen"?

To me the math does not seem as simple as you make it out to be. Figuring out the energy needed for electrolysis is fairly straightforward. Some level of current draw at 12V gives the power requirement. Then divide by the efficiency of the alternator. Now we have crank power. As a starting point, say our electrolysis device draws 50 amps. At 14V that's 700 watts. 1HP is 746 watts, so lets just round up to there to be generous. A quick google search yielded a typical alternator efficiency of a little over 50%. So that would mean we need 2HP of crank power to run the electrolysis.

What I don't have a handle on is how much efficiency can be gained from introducing the gas mixture into the intake charge. As a guess, if it takes 20HP at the crank to cruise down the road, we would need to make up 2HP just to break even. That would be a 10% increase in efficiency, which sounds extreme to me.

However there are a lot of assumptions here that could be incorrect, so the answer is still not clear. My book on combustion engines (John Heywood, MIT) doesn't talk about hydrogen enrichment so I can't do any more than guess. It does however talk a lot about fuel consumption in relation to air/fuel mixture and combustion chamber design. I'm still reading this part.

C|

[cygnus x-1]

An interesting link, sort of tangentially related:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090203.html

C|

[OldSkoolA20accord]

is anyone going to run HHO in their accord or is this thread just a big ass waste of time.

[Accordtheory]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?
I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

[Gemini2003]

I AM.

I'm still working on the best design to create HHO gas. I've had 3 tries so far each creating more gas. My next attempt is going to be much better (I hope). I'm going to try to use welding electrodes to: A) reduce the amount of sediment in the water and b) Ease of construction, If I can create a device with a central negative rod surrounded by positive rods - replacement and maintenance will be easy.

The two questions that need to be answered are:

How much drain will this device actually cause on the motor in HP loss?

and how much leaner can we run the mixture of Gas with the HHO additive?

I hope to have answers for in the next couple weeks.


MODS: Please don't close this thread. The people do not believe that this is a possibility are the only ones wanting this to happen. I click here daily to see what I can learn from everyone.

[Ichiban]

Using H2 and 02 gas may or may not have it's performance or efficiency advantage, but one thing is for sure, using the vehicle power to produce a mobile source of these gases is stupid. First off, the gas engine producing the power is inefficient to begin with. Then you have the added mass of all the water and the electrodes, plus the storage containers. If you really wanted to make this work, park a big solar powered barge in the ocean off the Caribbean, bottle or pipeline the H2, let the O2 go to atmosphere, and sell alternative fuel to hippies and German zeppelins.

Putting this system on the vehicle is a waste of everything. If you're bent on making this work, use a solar or plug in electrolysis system at home to produce the gas, then carry in the vehicle only what's needed. Keep in mind, that a molar mixture (or stoichiometric, if you prefer that term) of combustible gas and oxygen, is an explosive. I think there are far more gains available from using higher compression and Ethanol.

[2ndGenGuy]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?
I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

Isn't that the idea behind Fords new EcoBoost motors? I think GM is working on something similar... even talks of putting a direct injection turbo 4 in the new Camaro.

[Ichiban]

I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

I missed this the first time I read your post. Have you done any reading on HCCI gasoline engines? (homogeneous charge compression ignition)

Major research labs (not hicks selling BS) have been looking into this for some time now. Basically involves using some (but not all) principles of diesel engine combustion to improve the efficiency of gasoline engines, including higher compression.

[lostforawhile]

I AM.

I'm still working on the best design to create HHO gas. I've had 3 tries so far each creating more gas. My next attempt is going to be much better (I hope). I'm going to try to use welding electrodes to: A) reduce the amount of sediment in the water and b) Ease of construction, If I can create a device with a central negative rod surrounded by positive rods - replacement and maintenance will be easy.

The two questions that need to be answered are:

How much drain will this device actually cause on the motor in HP loss?

and how much leaner can we run the mixture of Gas with the HHO additive?

I hope to have answers for in the next couple weeks.


MODS: Please don't close this thread. The people do not believe that this is a possibility are the only ones wanting this to happen. I click here daily to see what I can learn from everyone.

[lostforawhile]

my favorite finding from another forum
ridgeracer
Junior Member

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: st peter, MN
Posts: 54


Default fart powered car
what if when you wanted to refuel you went to a drive through mexican place (you could still call em 'gas stations'!) and filled up on beans or whatever, and had something rigged up into the seat that inducted your farts as you ripped them, and converted it into useable energy via compression/detonation or something? sure it would be slow- but while you weren't farting you would be pedaling or something. what if.
__________________
2005 zx3 black, new antenna, painted interior a bit, waiting on turbo/na...


with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.
would this be BBT gas? burrito2 buritto2 taco1?

[Ichiban]

my favorite finding from another forum


with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.

What are you talking about?

[lostforawhile]

What are you talking about?if you have to ask....well never mind :bowrofl:

[cygnus x-1]

with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.
would this be BBT gas? burrito2 buritto2 taco1?


I have a friend who could power the entire US from his ass. It's pretty scary. :ugh:

Honda already has a methane car though.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/


C|

[cygnus x-1]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?

Here is a quote from the book I mentioned (Internal combustion Engine Fundamentals; John Heywood):

“The effect of exhaust gas recycle on engine performance and efficiency, for mixture with φ <= 1 [lean of stoichiometric], is similar to the addition of excess air. Both EGR and excess air dilute the unburned mixture… …At constant burn duration, BSFC and exhaust temperature decrease with increasing EGR… …This improvement in fuel consumption with increasing EGR is due to three factors: (1) reduced pumping work as EGR is increased at constant brake load (fuel and air flows remain almost constant; hence intake pressure increases); (2) reduced heat loss to the walls because the burned gas temperature is decreased significantly; and (3) a reduction in the degree of dissociation in the high-temperature burned gases which allows more of the fuel’s chemical energy to be converted to sensible energy near TDC. The first two of these are comparable in magnitude and each is about twice as important as the third… …Though addition of EGR lengthens both the flame development and propagation processes (as indicated by the increasing MBT [Maximum brake torque] spark advance requirement with increasing EGR), the faster-burning [combustion] chamber follows the anticipated pattern of significant BSFC reductions until, at about 20 percent EGR, the combustion quality deteriorates. For the slower-burning chamber, the tolerance to dilution with EGR is much less.”


So what it looks like to me is that they are using hydrogen enrichment to increase how much EGR they can use, thereby decreasing BSFC. My guess as to why they are using exhaust gas for dilution instead of just air is that the exhaust gas limits the excess O2 for further reduction of NOx emissions. I thought that was already inherent with lean burn due to the reduced combustion temperatures, but maybe not enough. IDK.
So according to them, the fuel/energy cost associated with the hydrogen enrichment is more than offset by how much they can extend EGR usage.




I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

Not familiar with the VTEC-e. How lean does it run? There is also the i-VTEC I. It supposedly ran at an incredible 65:1 AFR. Check this out:
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4031127a/

There was also something I ran across just few weeks ago about an improved ignition system that can ignite super lean mixtures:
http://www.leanburnignition.com/index.htm

And I totally agree about the future of lean burn engines. The emissions reduction measures put in place in the '80s forced automakers to design engines that primarily run at stoich in order to make the catalytic converters function correctly. What if instead they would have pursued lean burn and been able to reduce fuel consumption AND emissions? And wouldn't reduction in fuel usage lower total emissions just by itself?
Much like the healthcare industry, it seems progress in the auto industry is slowed by crappy legislation.


Well, I digress. Mostly just for my own curiosity I may try the HHO thing and see what happens. I've determined that my engine starts to lean surge at around 16:1 AFR. Would be interesting to see if it could run leaner with hydrogen enrichment.

C|

[2oodoor]

Megaton water asteriods ! is that where ass water comes from? It does seem to appear from "thin air"
Accord Theory tootin his unicorn dust ! wtf I have been missing the fun here too! you take paypal? ;)


seriousley, ah hem .. Gemini is just opening the conversation, and has humbled himself to all. Nothing wrong here. We should be throwing these ideas around and be open to critical observations, it is a tech forum like AT says. Some of the best inventions and discoveries were made by accident (not all without accidents) while looking for something else.

There is an ongoing article (duplicated umteen times of course) somewhere on the net, about this other conversion you get from materials available at a hardware store. I "hear" of even local folks here doing it on thier civics and getting up to 60 mpg. It is also a hydrogen conversion of some sort.

[lostforawhile]

i'm waiting for someone to mention the UFO powered cars, yes people believe they are real. :rolleyes:

[88Accord-DX]

I've been looking at a few sites about hydrogen used in cars. Some good reading on the subject. Here are the links.



http://waterpoweredcar.com/inventors.html

http://hydrogengarage.com/education.html

[lostforawhile]

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/timages/page/ufo_car090107-1a.jpg

[AccordB20A]

lol.

HHO or whatver u call it is flammable as fuck i can tell u that lol as we has discovered lol

[Gemini2003]

LOL at AccordB20A

[2oodoor]

:devil:
lol.

HHO or whatver u call it is flammable as fuck i can tell u that lol as we has discovered lol

[cygnus x-1]

I've been looking at a few sites about hydrogen used in cars. Some good reading on the subject. Here are the links.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/inventors.html

http://hydrogengarage.com/education.html


I spent an hour or so browsing through these and unfortunately while they do seem interesting, most of it is nonsense. The bottom line is that water is not a fuel. Hydrogen can be used as an energy carrier but the energy used to create it must come from somewhere. Also interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car


However, there may still be some possibility for using hydrogen as an additive to achieve small improvements in fuel efficiency for gasoline engines. If it works this would not violate any laws of physics because the gasoline is still the ultimate fuel source. All it would be doing is allowing the engine to make a little better use of the energy that is already stored in the gasoline.


C|

[Blkblurr]

Ok. I'm going to weigh in on this topic. I have not built one of these yet but I will. The concept for this is not creating more energy than you put into it. It is about the chemical reaction that the HHO has with burning gasoline. Essentially the effect that oxygen has on complete burn of the fuel as well as the effect the hydrogen has with the fuel during the same process. It would be a similar concept to adding octane boosters to retard combustion and reduce pinging. It a chemical reation the HHO generator produces.You also get a small amount of water produced in the combustion that very slightly cools the cylinder and burn reaction just after detonation. You cannot run the car on water itself. This process produces too small an amount of HHO. I suspect it works as mentioned as I have done some research on it but many factors come into play. The age of the car, the type of fuel to air mixing system, (ie) carb vs injection, the type of control via computor the car has. The more efficient the car already is the less impact the HHO generator will have. I know that one of the major three car companies is testing this now so it must have some merit. I have a set of plans to build this and a book on making it work and tweaking your car to get more milage out of it etc. Time will tell and I will post my results once I build it. I expect it will take me awhile before I get to it but hopefully I can provide some good information. By the way, producing hydrogen for car use does not delplete the water on earth as it returns to water when burned. No loss of water in any way. It is mearely a perfect energy transfer.

[OldSkoolA20accord]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Browns-gas-generator-HHO-Blaster-kit-with-bubbler_W0QQitemZ110276020006QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42 604QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

here is a generator thing i found when i was looking at parts for my blaster.

[AccordB20A]

Ok. I'm going to weigh in on this topic. I have not built one of these yet but I will. The concept for this is not creating more energy than you put into it. It is about the chemical reaction that the HHO has with burning gasoline. Essentially the effect that oxygen has on complete burn of the fuel as well as the effect the hydrogen has with the fuel during the same process. It would be a similar concept to adding octane boosters to retard combustion and reduce pinging. It a chemical reation the HHO generator produces.You also get a small amount of water produced in the combustion that very slightly cools the cylinder and burn reaction just after detonation. You cannot run the car on water itself. This process produces too small an amount of HHO. I suspect it works as mentioned as I have done some research on it but many factors come into play. The age of the car, the type of fuel to air mixing system, (ie) carb vs injection, the type of control via computor the car has. The more efficient the car already is the less impact the HHO generator will have. I know that one of the major three car companies is testing this now so it must have some merit. I have a set of plans to build this and a book on making it work and tweaking your car to get more milage out of it etc. Time will tell and I will post my results once I build it. I expect it will take me awhile before I get to it but hopefully I can provide some good information. By the way, producing hydrogen for car use does not delplete the water on earth as it returns to water when burned. No loss of water in any way. It is mearely a perfect energy transfer.

one of the best posts in this thread right there

[Oldblueaccord]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

Remember the term "limelight" I never new it came from this gas. I have been reading about its uses. They do glass polishing with it.


wp

[mushroom_toy]

I was gonna say some funny remark about methane, but yal already mentioned using it. Damn lol. Power your car with your shit...now thats what I call recycling.

Haha im jk this thread is a boring read lol im out.

[AccordB20A]

well i know i wouldnt mind a fart powered car. have a pipe on every seat and when someone lets go it sucks it into the motor

[lostforawhile]

how about a bullshit powered car? than it can run off of this thread,and some of the other ones off of the internet. :bowrofl: like some of the nuts say, the laws are physics are made up to prevent our theories from working

[2oodoor]

how about a car powered car, just push or pull one around with the other, FREE ENERGY for the coaster... thats it! Im going to the patent office TONIGHT

[2oodoor]

^^ phhhht shit that would be a train, dumb ideas. trains... hmph turning diesel energy to electric power, one source feeding another and wasting the diesel energy.

[cygnus x-1]

That's the cool thing about electric motors. They can pull against a dead load. Try getting an 8000 ton train moving with a mechanical clutch.

C|

[Oldblueaccord]

That and regenitive braking.

Still wondering if this works and how? I read alot about it.



wp

[2oodoor]

It does work, EZGO golf carts have been using it for long time.

[lostforawhile]

yea the braking does work, all electric or hybrid cars use it. you are recovering some of the energy of the moving car,and turning it back into electricity instead of wasting it as heat in the brakes. as fas as the diesel trains, they are very efficient, all diesel engine trains use electric traction motors,these are powered by diesel generators on the train. this is a much more efficient process then direct driving with the diesel. most ships also use this same technology. the electric motor itself is close to 100 percent efficient,other then energy lost as heat.

[2oodoor]

guess I should have put up sarcasm warning

[Oldblueaccord]

That and regenitive braking.

Still wondering if this works and how? I read alot about it.



wp



whoops late night statement..

I should have said:

I am still wondering how HHO gas works in a IC engine. I have read alot about it theory wise but I'm still lost.

Sorry to be somewhat on topic, on with the rest don't let me hold you all up.


wp

[johndej]

ah, sport compact car magazine just ran an editorial about this. its complete BS and will never work. if you know a bit about chemistry, find the article, its rather entertaining.

[Gemini2003]

Watch this (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Kq9Wtc0PM) and this and this :-) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav7zNb0CpI&NR=1) he quotes home much amperage he's pulling here: Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnXU7Ns_jw4&feature=related)


THIS GUY is serious. http://alt-nrg.org/ Hundreds of video's on you tube.

[Oldblueaccord]

Watch this (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Kq9Wtc0PM) and this and this :-) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav7zNb0CpI&NR=1) he quotes home much amperage he's pulling here: Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnXU7Ns_jw4&feature=related)


THIS GUY is serious. http://alt-nrg.org/ Hundreds of video's on you tube.

That is a link I like. Very iinformative!

They address the O2 sensor part which has been bugging me some and talks about lowering the voltage accross the plates etc.


wp

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh wow bubbles. Wow that must mean it's working. Can't be the lye or any of that other shit they put in the water. :rolleyes:

[ghettogeddy]

sorry the best chance of better fuel efficiency is gona be bio diesel or if they do more research on regular gas everything else is gona be an expensive mess

[cygnus x-1]

The purpose of the "other shit" :lol: in the water is to make it a better electrical conductor. You can use anything that makes the water either acidic or basic.

One thing I haven't seen yet is a cell that collects the hydrogen and oxygen separately. It's not hard to do, you just separate the positive and negative electrodes and have the bubbles go to different air spaces. I did this exact thing as a science project when I like 10 (for a different reason, and yes, I'm a nerd). But the point of separating the gases would be to introduce only the hydrogen into the air/fuel mixture. The hydrogen is what actually makes the combustion process more efficient, not the oxygen. The extra oxygen only fools the O2 sensor into thinking the mixture is too lean which causes the ECU to add more fuel; which is the opposite of what you want. The point of adding the hydrogen is to allow the engine to run even more lean than it normally would. This is why people are using those little electronic gizmos to alter the O2 sensor and MAP/MAF sensor signals along with their HHO rigs. They're tricking the ECU to inject less fuel.


Biodiesel is a cool idea, and I'm actually using it in my diesel converted Suzuki. The problem with biodiesel is that it has to be processed, which uses more energy to create the fuel. Even better is to run straight vegetable oil without the extra processing to convert to biodiesel. And even better than that is to run waste vegetable oil from local restaurants, since they have to pay to have the stuff hauled off and disposed of. You can collect their old oil for free and filter/dewater it to use as fuel for diesel engines. The vehicle does require some modification to run straight vegetable oil but it's not especially difficult to do. If you drive a lot you can recover the conversion and processing costs pretty quickly.


C|

[2ndGenGuy]

Yep, I used salt once to make a glass of water conductive. The more salt I added, the brighter my light bulb would get, to a point. But it corroded the crap out of the nails I had the wire wrapped around. I think lemon juice might have worked too. Or that was for a different project. It was a long time ago for me as well. :tongue:

Can't you buy Hydrogen somewhere? Seems like it would be easier to play with it that way and get your car tuned and running right on it. At least it seems it would be easier than screwing around with generating it on the fly in the car itself and just running a tube from your "HHO" bottle into your air intake completely unmetered.

Then after you get your car running properly on it, then focus on your electrolysis machine. Figure out how to store it and generate it. Isn't there some sort of "litmus paper" that could test to make sure you're really generating hydrogen, and see just how much of it you're making? This is the kind of thing I want to see that I haven't seen. All that these YouTube videos show is some wires and tubes running into a beaker of water and making bubbles. Not even proof that they're making "HHO" gas of any sort. Apparently it's too dangerous to store. :rolleyes:

I guess I just don't understand the hype of this HHO stuff they keep talking about when it seems much simpler to just focus on regular old hydrogen.

[2oodoor]

Cygnus x-1 :I needa diesel sammy, my niece is owner operator of a chain of fried chicken shacks in the Atlanta area. She says they have a LOT of that old vegatable oil to dispose every week.

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh wow bubbles.

OH MY GOD! It's cold fusion!!!! We'll never need Saudi oil again!!!

:tongue:

Anyway, this thread is a major drag because there's just a lot of name-calling and hate but nothing useful. I've seen some of the videos on this stuff. Yes, it appears as if you can run a small two-stroke motor on something other than straight gasoline, but that's not very useful in a car. There are a lot of things that work in the abstract. That doesn't mean they do in real life.

Can someone please just rig up their car with a boost kit or HHO or compressed H2 or Uranium 236 or whatever and:

1. Prove that it works, post a how-to and make everyone happy :)

2. Blow up their car and prove this to be all bunk. :crying:

No more haters please. That's not helpful.

[2ndGenGuy]

Here's an interesting article on how scientists are splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using sunlight. They mention using the hydrogen, but nothing about HHO gas.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/mu-mtl081408.php

[lostforawhile]

for the hundredth time there is no such things as hho gas, it's hydrogen, you don't consider the oxygen in the air as part of it,all fuels need oxygen to burn.

[cygnus x-1]

I'm pretty sure you can get tanks of hydrogen from industrial gas suppliers. But I imagine it's pretty expensive. And from what I can tell so far you really don't need all that much, so generating it on the fly is an ok way to get it. It's also safer since you don't have to worry about a lot of it escaping if there is a major leak or something.

But the point of the question is still valid. What sort of tuning needs to go along with this to make it really work? How much is enough? Too much?

And I was also noticing that a lot of the videos on youtube are really uninformative. Many of them are just panning shots of some equipment and bubbling water, with some trendy music in the background. I have yet to find any that talk about the actual relevant science behind this stuff. Like specific chemical reactions with different electrolytes, and how to get more gas production without generating too much heat. What about using multiple cells with a lower voltage per cell? There are lots of other questions.


To address 2ndgenguy's question, electrolysis actually does make regular old hydrogen. When you apply power to the electrodes, hydrogen gas forms around the negative electrode and oxygen gas forms around the positive electrode. HHO is just the mixture of the two. You could separate the electrodes and just collect the hydrogen by itself and vent the oxygen to the atmosphere. That's what I was suggesting earlier.


Anyway, all this is on my list of stuff to try pretty soon. Other 'more important' stuff keeps getting in the way though.


C|

[thegreatdane]

for the hundredth time there is no such things as hho gas, it's hydrogen, you don't consider the oxygen in the air as part of it,all fuels need oxygen to burn.

excactly. Without sufficient oxygen you will have no use of adding more fuel.

I think you should rather just look into simple water injection instead.

And lol at H2O being called HHO :)

[Oldblueaccord]

Yep, I used salt once to make a glass of water conductive. The more salt I added, the brighter my light bulb would get, to a point. But it corroded the crap out of the nails I had the wire wrapped around. I think lemon juice might have worked too. Or that was for a different project. It was a long time ago for me as well. :tongue:

Can't you buy Hydrogen somewhere? Seems like it would be easier to play with it that way and get your car tuned and running right on it. At least it seems it would be easier than screwing around with generating it on the fly in the car itself and just running a tube from your "HHO" bottle into your air intake completely unmetered.

Then after you get your car running properly on it, then focus on your electrolysis machine. Figure out how to store it and generate it. Isn't there some sort of "litmus paper" that could test to make sure you're really generating hydrogen, and see just how much of it you're making? This is the kind of thing I want to see that I haven't seen. All that these YouTube videos show is some wires and tubes running into a beaker of water and making bubbles. Not even proof that they're making "HHO" gas of any sort. Apparently it's too dangerous to store. :rolleyes:

I guess I just don't understand the hype of this HHO stuff they keep talking about when it seems much simpler to just focus on regular old hydrogen.

I kinda said that in post #30 but since we are having a post padding fest I am having pizza tonight for dinner too.

Lost...

Don't get too wrapped up in the terminology HHO is just what is says, Kinda like air is made up of many things besides O. But its on the wiki if you want to bother reading it.



wp

[cygnus x-1]

Lost...

Don't get too wrapped up in the terminology HHO is just what is says, Kinda like air is made up of many things besides O. But its on the wiki if you want to bother reading it.

wp


Right, it's just a name.





excactly. Without sufficient oxygen you will have no use of adding more fuel.

I think you should rather just look into simple water injection instead.

And lol at H2O being called HHO


A good point. But the purpose of adding hydrogen to the air/fuel mixture is to allow the engine to operate with leaner mixtures than is normally possible. A leaner mixture means that there is a surplus of oxygen in the intake charge, so there will be plenty to oxidize the hydrogen and the fuel.

There is one thing that needs to be made absolutely clear.

THE HYDROGEN IS NOT BEING USED AS A FUEL. IT IS A FUEL ADDITIVE TO INCREASE COMBUSTIBILITY.

All that stuff about using water as a fuel is complete rubbish. Hydrogen can be used as a fuel but in this case it is not.

And HHO is not H2O.

C|

[2oodoor]

last two posts, excellent clarification guys!
I love it when I am reading down a thread and get fired up to clarify what someone obviousley is not getting then somebody gets to it finally...

EVOO ok, Extra virgin olive oil.. do you actually think there are extra virgins? and then what are they doing with all that olive oil? it's just an acronym for the topic, the English language is complicated so you can't take every term literally.

[A18A]

how about, strengthening teh engine so so so much that you can run super super lean and not do no harm.. win win win win win. i didnt steal that idea from anyone in particular :)

[Blkblurr]

for the hundredth time there is no such things as hho gas, it's hydrogen, you don't consider the oxygen in the air as part of it,all fuels need oxygen to burn.

HHO gas or Browns gas is a name given for the remixing of both components of gas when you split the water molecule. It of course does not become water again until it is burned but you can buy a welder that runs on it.

[cygnus x-1]

how about, strengthening teh engine so so so much that you can run super super lean and not do no harm.. win win win win win. i didnt steal that idea from anyone in particular :)

The strength of the engine has nothing to do with running lean. It's about ignitibility and combustibility. As the mixture gets leaner it also gets harder to ignite and slower burning. When it gets to around 16.5:1 (depending on combustion chamber shape and such) it becomes so difficult to ignite that you get lean surge and misfires. Too much beyond 17:1 and it just won't ignite. A small amount of hydrogen added to a lean mixture makes it easier to ignite and speeds up the combustion so that it's more stable. It also drastically reduces NOx emissions (I believe by lowering combustion temperature).

C|

[2ndGenGuy]

So it's not about offsetting the gasoline with hydrogen? Aren't they talking about like 175% fuel efficiency using "HHO"? Can you really get that much better mileage just by lean burning an engine? As I recall, CVCC motors never got phenomenal mileage, just were cleaner burning as a result of the lean burn. Compare the ES2 to the A18.

[2oodoor]

Mixtures= good comparison is an oxeacetylene torch, or propane torch.
The leaner the flame gets :you have a blue flame which is loud and carries force and is capable of cutting metal it is so hot.
The richer the flame gets: white to orange color and is much quieter, to rich it starts to carburize and sends black airborne soot out.
A too lean mixture with considerable flow can destroy the combustion chamber in the head and burn holes in the piston and rings.

[cygnus x-1]

So it's not about offsetting the gasoline with hydrogen? Aren't they talking about like 175% fuel efficiency using "HHO"?

In our particular case, no. However I suspect that many people in the *HHO world* incorrectly think that it is; which is part of the problem. Many of the people that are messing around with this stuff have no clue about how it actually works. So we end up with lots of mis-information, junk science, and people using the general lack of real knowledge to sell crap. It is possible to run a combustion engine on only hydrogen, but it's way different from gasoline and would require a very different setup; i.e. compression ratio, valve timing, ignition, intake/exhaust tuning, etc.

175% efficiency is obviously over-unity, which is (as far as we know) impossible.



Can you really get that much better mileage just by lean burning an engine? As I recall, CVCC motors never got phenomenal mileage, just were cleaner burning as a result of the lean burn. Compare the ES2 to the A18.

You can if you can run really lean. Lean burn technology has already been demonstrated in production cars, including one by Honda. The real question is whether an on-demand electrolytic hydrogen source can add enough efficiency to make up for it's own energy consumption. I believe Delphi has already produced a hydrogen enhancement setup for use on diesel engines. But it produces hydrogen by reforming a small amount of fuel instead of by electrolysis of water. As I understand it's more efficient to reform hydrogen from hydrocarbons than to use electrolysis of water.


C|

[Oldblueaccord]

OH MY GOD! It's cold fusion!!!! We'll never need Saudi oil again!!!

:tongue:

Anyway, this thread is a major drag because there's just a lot of name-calling and hate but nothing useful. I've seen some of the videos on this stuff. Yes, it appears as if you can run a small two-stroke motor on something other than straight gasoline, but that's not very useful in a car. There are a lot of things that work in the abstract. That doesn't mean they do in real life.

Can someone please just rig up their car with a boost kit or HHO or compressed H2 or Uranium 236 or whatever and:

1. Prove that it works, post a how-to and make everyone happy :)

2. Blow up their car and prove this to be all bunk. :crying:

No more haters please. That's not helpful.

I do think it is funny that a typical human reaction to something foreign or differant than what they have done or seen is to be negative and act negative to the idea or the person people responsible for that idea.

I always try to remember that there was a time we (people) thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

Editing some while I am on my soap box. It does show the state of the education system in this country. I mean I got a circled 50 in Chem in highschool so don't have much to go on but I can understand so Chemistry and I did fair in math. I did a little better in 2 courses in college but it was dumbed down because I was in a management course. I wish I could teach people better but I'm not quilified in anyway to cover Chem or Phisycs so I try and keep my mouth shut.

I was skeptic when I added Acetone to my gas and got better mileage and still getting good results with 20% etheanol as well but I couldnt explain how or why.


wp

[2oodoor]

Myla Madson's complete guide to building and installing a Hydrogen Generator.
a coworker bought and DL this, looks interesting. There is a guy at a local shop that did it to his civic, has got 70 mpg with it.
It looks dangerous as fuc though
http://reviews.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Economy-Device-SCAMS_W0QQugidZ10000000005261775

[2ndGenGuy]

I do think it is funny that a typical human reaction to something foreign or differant than what they have done or seen is to be negative and act negative to the idea or the person people responsible for that idea.

I always try to remember that there was a time we (people) thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

Editing some while I am on my soap box. It does show the state of the education system in this country. I mean I got a circled 50 in Chem in highschool so don't have much to go on but I can understand so Chemistry and I did fair in math. I did a little better in 2 courses in college but it was dumbed down because I was in a management course. I wish I could teach people better but I'm not quilified in anyway to cover Chem or Phisycs so I try and keep my mouth shut.

I was skeptic when I added Acetone to my gas and got better mileage and still getting good results with 20% etheanol as well but I couldnt explain how or why.


wp

I'm not sure what makes you think that we were just being blindly negative about it. There are about 10,000 things when you go online and look up "HHO" that throw up BS flags in my head. I think they've all been explained in this thread, so I'm not going to re-iterate and re-inflame this thread. Nobody who had anything negative to say about it was just saying "no it's not possible" and not backing up what they said with some sort of actual fact or logical reasoning.


Myla Madson's complete guide to building and installing a Hydrogen Generator.
a coworker bought and DL this, looks interesting. There is a guy at a local shop that did it to his civic, has got 70 mpg with it.
It looks dangerous as fuc though
http://reviews.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Gen...00000005261775

That guide you linked says that magnets increased diesel fuel economy by 5-20%. :bs: Makes it hard to take any of that other information seriously...

[2oodoor]

:rice:-o-gen-ized

[2ndGenGuy]

:rice:-o-gen-ized

Lol

[2oodoor]

That guide you linked says that magnets increased diesel fuel economy by 5-20%. :bs: Makes it hard to take any of that other information seriously

wow the link is not even the same thing I was looking at, it changed even though the addy is the same. It was a scam alert.

[2ndGenGuy]

wow the link is not even the same thing I was looking at, it changed even though the addy is the same. It was a scam alert.

I was wondering about that. It didn't seem like you posted quite what you were talking about... :toilet:

[gp02a0083]

it's hydrogen not hho,thats whats burning,when you break down water it becomes hydrogen and oxygen, if it had two hydrogen atoms it actually would be radioactive. just be very careful a hydrogen leak can cause a huge explosion. enough to blind you or severely burn you. i'm waiting for someone on here to get hurt, not stuff you want to play with. i hope no one does,but i have the feeling it's going to happen. also when hydrogen is burning it's invisible, you can't see it,

it would not exactly be radioactive, yes hydrogen can be formed via electrolysis, however limiting stoicmetric amounts, for every molecule of H20 2h to 1 O. To make radioactive isotopes would be difficult and would require a significant amount of deuterium and tritium to be formed, heavy hydrogen/deuterium is roughly like 0.01% natural abundance. Deuterium isn't all that bad i use it consistently in NMR studies , tritium on the other hand is less stable and harder to manufacture.

Going back to the HHo, had scientific studies of it are lacking with only 30 publicized papers, 6 of them were retracted, they can be found through the ACS's (American chemical society) supposedly the theory behind it deals with the dissociation of a single hydrogen from a hydroxide. even still breaking the covalent "partial dipole" would be difficult, probally would require very strong RF frequencies similar to ICP-OES/MS. what has been shown is yes production of h2 in a sense to make combustible fuel, this process would probably be better suited for voltaic means.

[cygnus x-1]

Going back to the HHo, had scientific studies of it are lacking with only 30 publicized papers, 6 of them were retracted, they can be found through the ACS's (American chemical society) supposedly the theory behind it deals with the dissociation of a single hydrogen from a hydroxide. even still breaking the covalent "partial dipole" would be difficult, probally would require very strong RF frequencies similar to ICP-OES/MS. what has been shown is yes production of h2 in a sense to make combustible fuel, this process would probably be better suited for voltaic means.


I understand what you're talking about here but I'm not sure how this fits into the discussion. Is this an alternate hydrogen production method (alternate to standard electrolysis)?


C|

[gp02a0083]

kinda it could be another way to create hydrogen, but i think it could be used better for a voltaic cell (similar along the lines of a galvanic cell ). Point being this, i think would not be well suited for a combustible fuel

[Ichiban]

Is this still going on? I don't understand it, as using conventional electrolysis methods (not including inherent energy losses) you will always get out exactly as much energy from burning 2H+0 as you put in dissociating water into the 2H+O to begin with.

Since no machine is 100% efficient, you simply stand to loose energy, both in the manufacture of the gas, and in the combustion of it.

I say leave the water out of it and focus on traditional means, like reducing weight, pumping losses, rotating/unsprung mass etc.

Unless, there's some catalyst effect that improves the efficiency of the original fuel/air reaction that I'm not aware of, and the 2H and O gas is manufactured remotely.

[cygnus x-1]

Is this still going on? I don't understand it, as using conventional electrolysis methods (not including inherent energy losses) you will always get out exactly as much energy from burning 2H+0 as you put in dissociating water into the 2H+O to begin with.

Since no machine is 100% efficient, you simply stand to loose energy, both in the manufacture of the gas, and in the combustion of it.

That's correct. You get a little less out because you lose some energy to heat during the electrolysis process. The efficiency varies depending on the voltage used during the process (among other things).




I say leave the water out of it and focus on traditional means, like reducing weight, pumping losses, rotating/unsprung mass etc.

Unless, there's some catalyst effect that improves the efficiency of the original fuel/air reaction that I'm not aware of, and the 2H and O gas is manufactured remotely.


You just about hit it on the head. The improvement in efficiency actually comes from reduction of pumping loses. It works like this:

One reason diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines is because they have no throttle plates, and therefore don't have to work as hard pulling air into the cylinders (reduced pumping loses). They do this by being able to burn really lean fuel mixtures. Gasoline engines can get the same benefits by running very lean air/fuel mixtures, except for one problem. Beyond about 17:1 AFR (depending on the engine) the combustion process isn't very stable and the spark ignition can't reliably start the burn. Adding hydrogen to the mixture makes it easier to ignite and helps sustain the burn so that it can consume all the available fuel.

You could kind of think of it like trying to start a charcoal grill where the charcoal is not piled up, but is more spread out on the grate. You might be able to get one chunk lit but the flame won't easily spread to the next one. But if you add some lighter fluid to it, the flame is much easier to start and will spread quickly to the rest of the charcoal. In terms of actually using the energy in the charcoal (cooking the food), the lighter fluid itself adds nothing (it's already burned up), except to allow the whole process to get started enough to sustain itself.

That's a somewhat crude analogy but it does I think help to illustrate what is going on. So the real question becomes; can the efficiency gain from reduced pumping loses offset the energy lost trying to create the hydrogen in the first place? It has already been done with diesels and there is a company with a commercial application available. With gasoline engines I believe it's theoretically possible but I don't think it's been developed enough to know if it's really practical.

Incidentally, last fall I did build an electrolysis cell to mess with but I still haven't tried it out yet. Too many other projects keep getting in the way.

C|

[cygnus x-1]

kinda it could be another way to create hydrogen, but i think it could be used better for a voltaic cell (similar along the lines of a galvanic cell ). Point being this, i think would not be well suited for a combustible fuel


Just so I'm understanding right; by "it" you mean the process of electrolysis using some sort of acid or base solution?


C|

[gp02a0083]

yuypers can be used in an acidic or basic solution , typical ud want a basic solution so you can facilitate the transport of protons thus creating a "flow" of electrons

[Ichiban]

That's correct. You get a little less out because you lose some energy to heat during the electrolysis process. The efficiency varies depending on the voltage used during the process (among other things).


I'm also thinking that because gasoline engines are far from 100% efficient, you are going to have substantial energy losses on the recovery side, when you actually burn the fuel.




You just about hit it on the head. The improvement in efficiency actually comes from reduction of pumping loses. It works like this:

One reason diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines is because they have no throttle plates, and therefore don't have to work as hard pulling air into the cylinders (reduced pumping loses). They do this by being able to burn really lean fuel mixtures. Gasoline engines can get the same benefits by running very lean air/fuel mixtures, except for one problem. Beyond about 17:1 AFR (depending on the engine) the combustion process isn't very stable and the spark ignition can't reliably start the burn. Adding hydrogen to the mixture makes it easier to ignite and helps sustain the burn so that it can consume all the available fuel.

I have a decent understanding of how diesels run. Timed direct injection forces a metered amount of fuel into hot compressed air just before TDC, where the fuel "cloud" autoignites along the fringes where the fuel/air interface exists. Cylinder turbulence mixes the air and fuel, until the fuel is completely consumed in a surplus of superheated air. Of course, it's not a perfect system, and some of the fuel mixes with the air before the moment of "flash" and this mixture detonates at the beginning of combustion to give the traditional diesel clattering noise.

Also, diesel fuel contains far more energy/liter than gasoline does, and combusts its fuel in a surplus of air (usually) These are some other reasons behind the efficiency of the diesel.

Anyways, is the purpose of the HHO debate to allow elimination of the throttle, and to basically use a Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition Gasoline (HCCI, or so I've read), or a traditional gasoline throttle/injector setup, which doesn't create any improvement in VE?

Just curious here.






You could kind of think of it like trying to start a charcoal grill where the charcoal is not piled up, but is more spread out on the grate. You might be able to get one chunk lit but the flame won't easily spread to the next one. But if you add some lighter fluid to it, the flame is much easier to start and will spread quickly to the rest of the charcoal. In terms of actually using the energy in the charcoal (cooking the food), the lighter fluid itself adds nothing (it's already burned up), except to allow the whole process to get started enough to sustain itself.

I understand that it is difficult to ignite extremely lean mixtures, and that they are prone to detonation. However, isn't the HHO solution simply adding more fuel, enriching the mixture?




That's a somewhat crude analogy but it does I think help to illustrate what is going on. So the real question becomes; can the efficiency gain from reduced pumping loses offset the energy lost trying to create the hydrogen in the first place? It has already been done with diesels and there is a company with a commercial application available. With gasoline engines I believe it's theoretically possible but I don't think it's been developed enough to know if it's really practical.

I believe the most commercially popular solution to get more air into a diesel is the turbocharger. I've also heard of propane injection being used.

What other systems are out there to improve the efficiency/power output of the diesel?



Incidentally, last fall I did build an electrolysis cell to mess with but I still haven't tried it out yet. Too many other projects keep getting in the way.


C|

Only way I could see this being viable is if it's solar powered. Just my $.02

[Gemini2003]

So Anyone Tried the HHO conversion yet? LOL Man I started this thread forever ago :-) Bump because I still like the Idea :-)

[lostforawhile]

http://scipp.ucsc.edu/outreach/cover-3rdE-300.jpg
http://preparetoenteraworldofpain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/over9000_facepalm.gif

yes the book is huge, I wanted to make sure you didn't miss it.

[lostforawhile]

just for a refresher, you can cannot create or destroy energy, you can only change it from one form to another, it takes energy to turn the alternator in the car, the more electrical energy it's asked to put out the more energy it takes to turn it. You are turning gasoline energy into electrical energy. if you are trying to make hydrogen, you are using the electrical energy,which is made from the energy of the gasoline,to turn hydrogen into fuel which is changed into heat energy. in all these conversions you have loss in the way of heat energy, heat energy lost turning the gasoline into energy, heat lost producing the electricity, and loss in the wiring as heat, and frictional losses as heat in the alternator. you are converting the same energy three times, this means you have loss three times, you are at a net loss, you can never get more then what you put in. HHO is a physics fairy tail

[cygnus x-1]

just for a refresher, you can cannot create or destroy energy, you can only change it from one form to another, it takes energy to turn the alternator in the car, the more electrical energy it's asked to put out the more energy it takes to turn it. You are turning gasoline energy into electrical energy. if you are trying to make hydrogen, you are using the electrical energy,which is made from the energy of the gasoline,to turn hydrogen into fuel which is changed into heat energy. in all these conversions you have loss in the way of heat energy, heat energy lost turning the gasoline into energy, heat lost producing the electricity, and loss in the wiring as heat, and frictional losses as heat in the alternator. you are converting the same energy three times, this means you have loss three times, you are at a net loss, you can never get more then what you put in. HHO is a physics fairy tail



You are 100% correct about the physics. However you're misunderstanding the mechanism for how hydrogen injection (supposedly) works. (I say "hydrogen injection" because the oxygen component of "HHO" is actually irrelevant) The hydrogen adds no significant extra energy to the combustion process. IT IS NOT ACTING AS A FUEL. If that were the idea then it absolutely would be a net loss. The (theoretical) efficiency gain comes from a reduction of pumping losses, made possible by allowing the fuel (gasoline) to burn at leaner mixtures than would otherwise be possible without the additional hydrogen. No energy is being created or destroyed. It's an improvement in how the fuel's thermal energy can be used by the engine.


Here's an interesting question. How is it that (all else being the same) increasing the compression ratio of an engine can increase power output? It takes more force (and therefore work) to compress the mixture in the cylinders right? The fuel doesn't have any more energy than it did before. So where is the extra power coming from?


C|

[lostforawhile]

You are 100% correct about the physics. However you're misunderstanding the mechanism for how hydrogen injection (supposedly) works. (I say "hydrogen injection" because the oxygen component of "HHO" is actually irrelevant) The hydrogen adds no significant extra energy to the combustion process. IT IS NOT ACTING AS A FUEL. If that were the idea then it absolutely would be a net loss. The (theoretical) efficiency gain comes from a reduction of pumping losses, made possible by allowing the fuel (gasoline) to burn at leaner mixtures than would otherwise be possible without the additional hydrogen. No energy is being created or destroyed. It's an improvement in how the fuel's thermal energy can be used by the engine.


Here's an interesting question. How is it that (all else being the same) increasing the compression ratio of an engine can increase power output? It takes more force (and therefore work) to compress the mixture in the cylinders right? The fuel doesn't have any more energy than it did before. So where is the extra power coming from?


C|
increasing the compression is more a matter of efficiency, the higher the compression the less energy energy is wasted on the fuel air charge expanding after it lights, it acts more efficiently on the piston, the downside of course is heat and the need mainly for fuel with a higher octane rating to avoid detonation. I don't understand the theory of using hydrogen except for octane possibly, but it has a poor octane rating. It's better to use something like propane to allow it to run on a leaner mixture, remember that propane used energy somewhere in the process, so you really aren't gaining anything. somewhere along the line with any of these octane boosting fuels,energy was used, nothing is free. It's like the electric car concept, zero emissions bla bla bla, where do they think the electricity is going to come from? if you look at the entire chain of that electricity from creation, to making it to your car, it's actually less efficient. Shhhh the government doesn't want you to know that, electricity is a clean fuel? funny whats that stuff coming out of the coal fired power plant, or the radioactive fuel that will be decayed in 10000 years

[Dr_Snooz]

Why did you bring this thread back? If we spend another 6 months squabbling about theory, I swear I'm going to freak out. How about we try this: only people who have actually BUILT an HHO unit that actually WORKS are allowed to post about it from here on out.

Better yet, just lock this thread.:lock:

[lostforawhile]

Why did you bring this thread back? If we spend another 6 months squabbling about theory, I swear I'm going to freak out. How about we try this: only people who have actually BUILT an HHO unit that actually WORKS are allowed to post about it from here on out.

Better yet, just lock this thread.:lock:
which is the reason I posted the http://preparetoenteraworldofpain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/over9000_facepalm.gif

[2oodoor]

sweeet!!
popcorn, fried bolonga sandwich, junior mints... big gulp pibb.. this is quality entertainment..
bug zapper plugged in, whada hell its satu:rockon:rday nite

[lsemple]

I installed HHO on my Accord (1987) w/ carb, and have tested it by driving with it on and with it off.

The results I am having are great, and now my car has more power, runs smoother, shifts at lower rpm, and the engine is more quiet.


I tested it by removing the vacuum line to the hydro generators (T'd into the Charcoal canister vacuum line), and put the orig. vac hose on, the Engine's rpm dropped by 1 or 2 hundred rpm. I drove around like this and the car was slower, lacked the power it had, and sounded rougher. So I put my T back on and am using the generators I made to make my car run better.

I am expecting better results on our 'air-care' program that is enforced by ICBC here in BC, even though my exhaust system is in not-so-good condition.

[cygnus x-1]

I installed HHO on my Accord (1987) w/ carb, and have tested it by driving with it on and with it off.

The results I am having are great, and now my car has more power, runs smoother, shifts at lower rpm, and the engine is more quiet.


I tested it by removing the vacuum line to the hydro generators (T'd into the Charcoal canister vacuum line), and put the orig. vac hose on, the Engine's rpm dropped by 1 or 2 hundred rpm. I drove around like this and the car was slower, lacked the power it had, and sounded rougher. So I put my T back on and am using the generators I made to make my car run better.

I am expecting better results on our 'air-care' program that is enforced by ICBC here in BC, even though my exhaust system is in not-so-good condition.


Very interesting! And now for the barrage of questions. Which charcoal line did you tee into? Which generator design are you using? Have you taken any measurements on how much current it draws? Have you tried any fuel mileage tests? When you tried running without the generators, did you still have the generators running and just venting to the air or were they not running at all?


Get your snacks ready Roo', it's starting up again! :lol:



C|

[Dr_Snooz]

I installed HHO on my Accord (1987) w/ carb, and have tested it by driving with it on and with it off.

The results I am having are great, and now my car has more power, runs smoother, shifts at lower rpm, and the engine is more quiet.


I tested it by removing the vacuum line to the hydro generators (T'd into the Charcoal canister vacuum line), and put the orig. vac hose on, the Engine's rpm dropped by 1 or 2 hundred rpm. I drove around like this and the car was slower, lacked the power it had, and sounded rougher. So I put my T back on and am using the generators I made to make my car run better.

I am expecting better results on our 'air-care' program that is enforced by ICBC here in BC, even though my exhaust system is in not-so-good condition.

:bs:

Sorry, I'm calling BS. You have one post, no pics, no build thread, no nothing, but you have HHO. Well, I make my toast with a cold fusion reactor. You're going to have to do a lot better than this.

Just to be fair, I think the theory is great. It's the reality that seems to be the problem. If this was such great technology, everybody would have it and you could buy a conversion kit at Kragen.

[lostforawhile]

:bs:

Sorry, I'm calling BS. You have one post, no pics, no build thread, no nothing, but you have HHO. Well, I make my toast with a cold fusion reactor. You're going to have to do a lot better than this.

Just to be fair, I think the theory is great. It's the reality that seems to be the problem. If this was such great technology, everybody would have it and you could buy a conversion kit at Kragen.

my garbage powered cold fusion reactor is a lot better then this HHO stuff, and it's almost done, give me another six months

[Demon1024]

You guys should really try alcohol injection
My theory:
It makes me happy, should make my car happy

[lostforawhile]

You guys should really try alcohol injection
My theory:
It makes me happy, should make my car happy

you mean methanol? worthless unless you are running boost, with a boosted car it's a great advantage in preventing detonation. you can buy kits from Summit and Jeggs, you run windshield washer fluid with the kits, thats all it is, Methanol and water