The Age old Question - ATF, Only Honda OE really?

[mavric240]

Ok I know this has been asked before and and asked some more here.

Please bare with me on this it will make sense, really.

I have used the Honda fluid on recommendation from here and I am a believer. Today one of my customer's brought in a bottle of O'Reily's Global ATF to me and showed me where it say's it is an approved Honda ATF Z1 fluid. This is the only ATF in the aftermarket that I have seen that actually mentioned the Z1 fluid and had the Honda part number on it. :deal:

So my question is - Is this an acceptable substitute for the OE Honda fluid?

[Oldblueaccord]

First off nice car in sig! whats the setup?


On page 15-16 of the Helms 1988 Accord book it says use Dextron-type automatic transmission fluid.

For what I know my wifes 92 wagon that has an auto the helms actually says use Dextron II aproved fluids. I bought some of the Castrol brand for foriegn cars myself.

I dont think it hurts you to use the Honda brand fluid and from what I have read it is an improvement.

wp

[mavric240]

First off nice car in sig! whats the setup?


On page 15-16 of the Helms 1988 Accord book it says use Dextron-type automatic transmission fluid.

For what I know my wifes 92 wagon that has an auto the helms actually says use Dextron II aproved fluids. I bought some of the Castrol brand for foriegn cars myself.

I dont think it hurts you to use the Honda brand fluid and from what I have read it is an improvement.

wp

It is a 1976 Dodge Aspen R/T, Factory R/T trim Package

I run a 340 with Holley 650 Double Pump sitting on a Wieland High Rise with a New Process 4 speed winding up a a 8.75 posi with a 391 gears. Its pretty fun to play with. But only gets like 4mpg.

[2oodoor]

It is a 1976 Dodge Aspen R/T, Factory R/T trim Package

I run a 340 with Holley 650 Double Pump sitting on a Wieland High Rise with a New Process 4 speed winding up a a 8.75 posi with a 391 gears. Its pretty fun to play with. But only gets like 4mpg.

I had a 76 roadrunner -set up about like that 318 4 speed new process, factory air delete. man I loved that car and wish I still had it. I worked at a Dodge dealer at the time and was always doing stuff to it.
also had an 80 model roadrunner, kind of rare, 318 edlebrock torquer and 4bbl. posi same too.

The atf should be synthetic blend like Honda's. I dont know what the deal is about the confliction of fluids in the manuals. You will notice a big difference in the shift quality between HOnda and dexron.

[mavric240]

I had a 76 roadrunner -set up about like that 318 4 speed new process, factory air delete. man I loved that car and wish I still had it. I worked at a Dodge dealer at the time and was always doing stuff to it.
also had an 80 model roadrunner, kind of rare, 318 edlebrock torquer and 4bbl. posi same too.

The atf should be synthetic blend like Honda's. I dont know what the deal is about the confliction of fluids in the manuals. You will notice a big difference in the shift quality between HOnda and dexron.

Yea I really like my Mopars but starting to come around on these hondas but whole new world too me.

[Vanilla Sky]

If not Honda Z1 fluid, get Mobil1 or B&M Trick Shift. Those are the only others I'd put in my car.

[mavric240]

If not Honda Z1 fluid, get Mobil1 or B&M Trick Shift. Those are the only others I'd put in my car.

Thank you Vanilla I will get the Mobil 1 from Pep Boys down the street from me. My Honda dealer is a ways away and actually charges $8.00 a QT for it.

[Vanilla Sky]

Yeah. That's the issue I have with the Z1. If it's available, get the Mobil1 synth trans fluid. It's a little cheaper than the Z1, but you can get it just about anywhere. I think I've seen the stuff at Wal-mart before.

[AccordB20A]

convert it ot manual and have no more issues :D

[Dr_Snooz]

My Honda dealer is a ways away and actually charges $8.00 a QT for it.

That's really the deal breaker with the Honda fluid, isn't it? I'm sure it's great, but getting it is a real pain in the arse. I just use the Valvoline MaxLife in mine. It's okay, cheap and widely available. When my tranny goes, I'll just do a MT swap. Win win really.

[2oodoor]

convert it ot manual and have no more issues :D

im gonna have to have one of each, the auto car is so much more comfy and roomy, dont know how that is.

[DBMaster]

If I'm not mistaken Z1 did not exist when these cars were new. Mine says Dexron II on the dipstick and in the owner's manual. That is supposed to mean that Dexron II meets Honda's requirements. In the intervening years Dexron III came along as well as Honda Z1. I have pretty much used Amsoil, Mobile 1, and B&M Synthetic Trick Shift. With 292,000 miles it is just now getting a little tempermental. It does not shift into 4th gear very readily until completely warmed up and when it is really hot outside I can feel a little slip before it "catches" and starts moving the car from a stop. These issues have been developing over the last few years so I would not be surprised if I end up with a new transmission in my future. I have to admit, though, that there were ZERO American cars from the 80's that had autos that would last 300K miles. I'm sure there were a few here and there, but not commonly found like on these Accords.

[Ichiban]

My 1gen accord had "DEXRON" cast into the filler/dipstick tube. I ran ATF that we stole in a 20 litre pail from an abandoned mine.

[2oodoor]

true, ok I will post what I edited on my previous entry.
If you were to compare the amount of manual tranny troubles to the amount of auto tx troubles on this board.. guess which one well outnumbers the other.
Manual, lost 5th gears, grinding , sychros, input shaft woes.. admitedly a large number are from improper servicing ie lack of lube, improper installs, slamming gears for sport driving. blah blah blah but still way more problems.
I still want one of each :)

[Dr_Snooz]

true, ok I will post what I edited on my previous entry.
If you were to compare the amount of manual tranny troubles to the amount of auto tx troubles on this board.. guess which one well outnumbers the other.
Manual, lost 5th gears, grinding , sychros, input shaft woes.. admitedly a large number are from improper servicing ie lack of lube, improper installs, slamming gears for sport driving. blah blah blah but still way more problems.
I still want one of each :)

Holy cow, you're right! We get one a month at least. At least with the autos, the answer is always the same: start with a flush, then adjust the TV cable. If it slips, rebuild.

Now I have to think about this more carefully. Maybe it's because the MT guys all drive like their hair is on fire??????????


My 1gen accord had "DEXRON" cast into the filler/dipstick tube. I ran ATF that we stole in a 20 litre pail from an abandoned mine.

And um, :wtf:

[2oodoor]

Now I have to think about this more carefully. Maybe it's because the MT guys all drive like their hair is on fire??????????



:

Doc Snooz you just made me spill coffee and some went up my nose I laughed so hard. ouch

[offthahook]

Mobil makes Z1 for Honda. Valvoline MaxLife actually mentions Z1 on the back and they have a chart that shows what product works on what makes. Honda/Acura is on that list and Valvoline's MaxLife does meet/exceed OEM specs. Honda parts guys have told me that Valvoline or Mobil products work just fine in Honda/Acura AT's. However, they tell the normal customers that the proprietary fluids are the ONLY way to go. Same deal with PS fluid. It's probably best to go with Honda labelled stuff, but good maintenance is the key to getting a component to last. If a label specifically mentions "approved for Honda/Acura", you're probably good to go these days. Several years ago, there were differences. But as Hondas have become so popular, the aftermarket has caught up as well. After all, not every Honda is serviced at a dealer (or with dealer parts). Used Hondas taken in on trade and not certified receive aftermarket parts at the dealership when they are run through service before being put on the lot.

And I've heard NEVER completely flush a Honda AT. Only do a drain/fill, not the entire system...

[DBMaster]

Question for offthahook and the Dr:

You mention adjusting the TV cable. I did play with mine a little, but barely changed the tension. The way I have it right now it has just enough tension so I can see the lever on the transmission move the instant the throttle moves. But, I adjusted my cable at the top end near the throttle body while the shop manual only mentions adjusting it on the transmission end. I thought having to remove the battery was a bit excessive when it appeared that I could do the same thing on the other end of the cable.

It started being reluctant to shift into 4th several years ago. I have done fluid changes every 30K miles for the life of the car with the synthetic fluids I mentioned. When it first started I could improve it by changing the fluid earlier. The shifts are pretty normal after I drive a few miles. If I get on the highway before it's totally warmed up I have to let off the accelerator slightly to coax it into fourth. If I hold it the engine will hit high RPM's and then the tranny will "slam" into 4th. I try to make the shift a little easier. Once it's warm it will go right into 4th with no problem.

My take is that it could continue like this for a long time, but that the transmission is nearing the time for replacement or rebuild. I just wanted some professional opinions.

Gracias, amigos.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, I've been needing to adjust mine but don't want to pull the battery either. I think I'll try it your way. As I understand it, the TV cable just tells the tranny how hard you are mashing on the gas pedal. If you have it floored, it makes the gear run right up to red-line before shifting. More generally, by adjusting it, you can make the tranny shift at higher or lower rpms overall. I adjusted mine to Honda spec, but am not satisfied with the results. I'm just going to play with it until I like it. You might be able to alleviate some of the hang up by playing with the cable, but no guarantees.

It sounds like your valve body is getting tired. It might be wear causing tolerances that are not quite what they should be anymore. It could also be varnish, gum or other assorted crud and buildup. Without knowing the maintenance history, I'd say it's gum that loosens when the tranny gets a little hotter. However, you take such good care of it and use such good oil that I wouldn't think it's that. At 300k, though, it's hard to say. You might try a detergent additive like Seafoam or something to see if it makes any difference. I'd be really conservative with it though. Your tranny is really old and you don't need to blow a seal.

Mostly, just keep doing what you're doing: good maintenance and being easy on it. If you keep that up, you might squeeze another 100k out of it.

[2oodoor]

you didn't direct the question to me DB Master but I will rude and insert my 2cent. I have never had to remove the battery etc.. I pop out the black plastic panel under the wheel, viola there she is spread wide open like a double barrel shotgun.
Factory specs on this thing never seems right.. well because it operates the lever which operates the valve. Spriing tension on the lever,and the state of tune or throttle body/carb set up can alter that spec. Just moving the jam nut two threads makes a differnence, pretty sensative once it gets in the range. The fact you say you can make it shift by letting off the gas pedal should tell you that it needs just a thread or two more adjustment.
If you sit back and think about this thing, they can venture out of adjustment just by the deteriation of the tune on the car, not even having moved the cable adjustemnt. You have to move the throttle say 8mm more to get the same torque it had with a fresh tune up, hence the throtttle (transmsission one) cable will pull more (hell probably 8mm as well) on the lever at the transmision.

rough basic auto tx theory using tv control valve bodys:
The tv lever controls a valve that routes tranny fluid into another channel in the valve body which changes pressure to an actuator that positons a drum to push into the next gearset.
This is accomplished by electrontically signaled solenoid valves in later models. Those use TPS , VSS and MAP signals to the ECM then ECM to TCM.

[DBMaster]

I pop out the black plastic panel under the wheel, viola there she is spread wide open like a double barrel shotgun.


I am not sure what a violin-like stringed instrument has to do with any of this. :lol:

I am sure you mean voila rather than viola. Seriously, though, I missed your earlier post or I would have addressed the question to you, too. I initially increased the tension on the TV cable slightly, probably less than 5mm movement. I was finding the shifts to be a bit premature so I tried progressively loosening it until it was where I wanted it. I don't think I described the letting off the gas correctly. I am within about 1.5 miles from I-35. By the time I actually get to the highway my temperature gauge is in the normal range. I think the transmission is slower to become fully warmed up than the engine. Whether I am getting on the highway or just driving around town it is still reluctant to shift into 4th so the amount of pressure on the cable doesn't seem to affect the shift. The reason I let off the gas a bit accelerating up to 60+ miles per hour is that when the shift finally does happen I don't feel the "bang" as badly if the RPM's are lower. If I am on a 40 mph road it will eventually shift into 4th as well with RPM's in the 3,000-3,500 range. If I don't let up slightly approaching terminal highway speed the hard shift will happen at 4,000-4,500 RPM. It just "feels" bad for the transmission. My suspicion is that a fluid passage or two may have some blockage - like an arterial plaque buildup - and that it takes the less viscous hot fluid to build enough pressure past the restriction to make the shift. It wouldn't be for lack of doing fluid changes. I wish this transmission had a replaceable filter that was actually accessible. I have given thought in the past to adding an inline spin-on filter kit, but at the age and mileage I am at now I figure "what's the point?"

[Dr_Snooz]

you didn't direct the question to me DB Master but I will rude and insert my 2cent.

Thanks. I was hoping you would. Removing the fender liner is a brilliant idea, by the way.

DB, from your more complete description, it's sounding more like a worn shift valve in the valve body. Those valves are just aluminum plungers sliding in an aluminum body and they get burrs and start to hang up. There's a really good tranny shop here in town. I'll try to call them tomorrow to see if they can recommend an additive to smooth things out.

[DBMaster]

Thanks. I was hoping you would. Removing the fender liner is a brilliant idea, by the way.

DB, from your more complete description, it's sounding more like a worn shift valve in the valve body. Those valves are just aluminum plungers sliding in an aluminum body and they get burrs and start to hang up. There's a really good tranny shop here in town. I'll try to call them tomorrow to see if they can recommend an additive to smooth things out.

Sounds good. I am willing to try again if it helps. Your description of the sticking valve sounds similar to something a transmission guy told me several years ago. The guy actually sounded like he knew something about Hondas. These automatics are very different from others of the vintage because they are non-planetary geared. His prognosis at the time was to just continue diligent maintenance and wait for the failure - which could take years. I guess he was right.

[2oodoor]

Voila, dam you picked one mispelled word out of that whole coffee driven novel.. :stick:
thats funny
anyway, I am a firm believer in doing holistic medicine before surgury doc Snooz btw..
so I still think that if the cable DB, was put back up at the throttle body, and then redo the adjustment at the tranny end, the trannny would be less annoying. I completely agree with the actual valve in the tranny being cupped out from wear, could cause this too. I was lookng a while back at the factroy manual breakdown of this tranny and saw that area could be trouble for holding.
If you are using regular Dexron, I dont know if Mighty auto parts is in your area, commercial accounts only.. they have a great additive.

On topic here, this JDM auto tranny I have uses the tv cable AND electronic solenoids. Since I am not using a TCM, I am working on a solution to deal with this without going electronic. One person says to hook them both to 12v by the key on switch. Energized al the time when the car is running. I am wondering which car is most like this one USDM, the civic or the prelude of about the same era. 89=90. I would like to know when the solenoids are supposed to be on, and when the are not, by using the diagnositc for one of those two other models. Getting a JDM manual on them is apparantly out of consideration. If these are ONLY lock up torque converter then it is not a big deal I can hook up an OD switch, but if they control shift points then I need to know what the deal is there.

[DBMaster]

I am currently using B&M Synthetic Trick Shift. Bought a few bottles at Pep Boys in Carrollton as they were liquidating. One thing I saw on a clearance table at another Pep Boys was an additive that said it turned "regular" ATF into friction modified ATF (like Honda Z1). The color of my ATF in the tranny is now a weird brown/purple because the B&M stuff is dyed BLUE instead of red.

No biggie on the voila. I am just anal retentive on spelling and grammar. I wouldn't say I never do it, but on this forum there's an awful lot of language-slaughter. :)

[2oodoor]

I would change the fluid if it is over 10k miles old on it then. Trick shift is supposed to be changed regularly I thought.

Spelling,:tongue:....
I can spell things right as I type but if I go back to proofread (?) I mess up vowels and plurals without realizing it.. sometimes I just type dialect as I would speaking no whut I mean vern..:violin: viola lol

[DBMaster]

I actually changed it prematurely the last time, but it was only a couple thousand miles ago. Synthetic fluid would normally go more than 30K miles, but I have changed it that often since the car was new.

Since we are talking transmission I have one other issue that I think is also related. When the ambient temperature is above 80 or so I find that the car surges when I let off the gas at high speed (i.e. exiting the highway). There is no vacuum leak and almost all of the idle control hardware has been replaced during the normal course of wear and tear. This includes the fast idle valve and the IACV. I also recently replaced the distributor with a new (not rebuilt) unit. When the car surges you can definitely see and feel it in the drivetrain. I have long suspected that this was related to wear in the transmission and not anything else.

I figure as long as I hijacked this thread I may as well go for broke! Sorry dudes!

[Dr_Snooz]

I completely agree with Roodoo on the TV cable. You can play with that for free, so start there. I don't think it's a TV cable issue, but you may be able to massage the problem away for a while longer.

Roodoo, I looked in my 4g manual to see if I could help you at all on those solenoids. It turns out that I have 4 solenoids. Two control lock up. Two control shifts. So I'm no help at all really. The lock up ones are above the shift controllers on the body of the tranny and can be seen from the top of the engine compartment. The shift solenoids requie a little more digging. Anyway, depending on which solenoid (or both) is activated, you have partial lockup, half lockup (different from partial) or full lockup.

[2oodoor]

thread jacking, cool since we have more than answered the question in post 1. lol

thanks Dr Snooz, I really wish I could get an English JDM breakdown of the tranny to see the fluid path for those solenoids. I think they are just lock up though, but when? I wonder if it affects starting, I found info on the prelude type but those have "sport mode" , so I think I will look closer at the 86-89 civic info.

DB that sounds like ign timing or some advance issue, maybe centrifrigal getting stuck or slow to retract? That tv cable can be slow too, so it is a good idea to lube it up good as you adjust it to make sure it returns to precise home position without fail/delay.

[Dr_Snooz]

thread jacking, cool since we have more than answered the question in post 1. lol

thanks Dr Snooz, I really wish I could get an English JDM breakdown of the tranny to see the fluid path for those solenoids. I think they are just lock up though, but when? I wonder if it affects starting, I found info on the prelude type but those have "sport mode" , so I think I will look closer at the 86-89 civic info.

DB that sounds like ign timing or some advance issue, maybe centrifrigal getting stuck or slow to retract? That tv cable can be slow too, so it is a good idea to lube it up good as you adjust it to make sure it returns to precise home position without fail/delay.

Yes, it's been a lovely romp through the weeds, hasn't it? Luckily, I'm about to bring it back on topic!!!

DB, I called the tranny shop here and they suggested BG's trans conditioner.

BG additive (http://www.bgprod.com/products/transmission.html)

If they get a bad tranny, they'll start with the cleaner, then flush and add the conditioner. No guarantees, but you can try it. These guys are the best in town, so if it were my trans, I'd try it. My BMW guy swears by additives, by the way.

Now to get back on topic. The shop here also insisted that they only use OE Honda fluid. With all the guys on here who swear by the OE fluid, you should also try that.

Tada! Back on topic.


Roo, I'm happy to post some pages from my 4g (USDM) manual describing lockup function. I don't have anything JDM though. Sorry.

[2oodoor]

You have a bmw guy? :kekeke:

I have access to snap on shop key (mitchell on demand) so I have all of the usdm info, thanks anyway

I just need specific information for those first Honda auto tx that used the two solenoids up on top of the bell housing AND the tv cable as like our regular 3geez.

on topic.. I do not endorse snake oils and miracle cures. But absolutley trust professional products like BG, or even Mighty. The things that work are the friction modifiers that convert. Regular dexron does like to get a little foamy, esp cheaper brands. You do not want the fluid to develop bubbles when it is supposed to be holding pressure against something, after all it is a form of hydraulic oil. You also want it to lubricate as it pushes, and foamy oil does not like to get go into tiny areas. Synthetic blends reduce foaming, modifiers reduce foaming and provide cushioning properties.
Before all these blends came out we would use GM corvette posi diff. additive to solve shudder and weak accumulator springs or whatever needs a little help thrusting out to move something inerds of the transmoosin.

[2oodoor]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/bobbys_angel/funny%20stuff/moose.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/1213620679.jpg

[Oldblueaccord]

It is a 1976 Dodge Aspen R/T, Factory R/T trim Package

I run a 340 with Holley 650 Double Pump sitting on a Wieland High Rise with a New Process 4 speed winding up a a 8.75 posi with a 391 gears. Its pretty fun to play with. But only gets like 4mpg.

I have a 1974 Scamp I am working on. Maybe get it running this month even.

318 "302" heads,Summit .455 cam, Eddy air gap, and a Holley 750 DP, 727 PTC 2500 rpm LO converter. Prolly going to go with a A 518 and an 8 3/4 B body rearend here some point( I got em) and maybe convert over to E-85 depending how high and cheap I can get my compression to.

Adjust your cables and see if you can get anything out of it or see if they are damaged. I am wondering if they speedo cable damage is from a bad ground wire that has happen to several people on here. No time for me to search. :idea:


wp

[DBMaster]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/1213620679.jpg

Cool. I'll try to find some locally. I have NAPA, AZ, and O'Reilly's nearby.

[Ichiban]

My 1gen accord had "DEXRON" cast into the filler/dipstick tube. I ran ATF that we stole in a 20 litre pail from an abandoned mine.


And um, :wtf:


I wrote in plain english. We got shitfaced one day and took home a 20 litre pail of god knows how old ATF that was identified solely on the basis of colour and odor. We ran it in said 1gen accord transmission, which demanded "DEXRON", via the dipstick plug. No problems.

Oh, and "colour" is in fact the correct spelling, in my country, at least, DB master.

Cello.

[Dr_Snooz]

You have a bmw guy? :kekeke:

Alas, you're right to laugh at me. His mechanics always break stuff on my car. I've effectively fired him, but he did help me that first year of BMW ownership to get a $5,000 tranny not to break when it wanted to so badly.

:Owned2:

[AccordB20A]

Very Clear indeed mike


true, ok I will post what I edited on my previous entry.
If you were to compare the amount of manual tranny troubles to the amount of auto tx troubles on this board.. guess which one well outnumbers the other.
Manual, lost 5th gears, grinding , sychros, input shaft woes.. admitedly a large number are from improper servicing ie lack of lube, improper installs, slamming gears for sport driving. blah blah blah but still way more problems.
I still want one of each :)

i missed this post. I find 5 speed more interesting. autos bore me and they also make it sound like you cant drive half the time. I also have one of each too but not for long im converting to manual this week.
Your auto a20a boxes dont fail cause the a20a makes no power to even stress the box. dunno why your 5th gears fail thats never happened to anyone in any honda over here that i know of... over here where every auto accord is a B20a most of them have had replacement boxes fitted 2 or 3 times, the auto accord i got for my gf had a rebuilt gearbox installed by honda 80,000kms ago and its fucked allready, the cars only done a total of 167,000kms lol.... and the manuals are allways in top condition. Still it depends how they are driven but usually grandmas own autos over here. Mighty b20a powers only made for a manual lol

the answer is.. dont rebuild the auto... convert to manual haha nah ill let you auto guys get back on topic now haha