EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)

[ChaseR]

my ECU flashes 12 times for

12 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

Anyone else have this problem? how do you remedy it? new EGR valve?

[Pico]

you can try cleaning the EGR to get out some of the built up carbon deposits.
Then reset the ECU after you've cleaned the EGR

[87roach]

I have this same problem right now... I think I will poke around with it tomorrow. The light only comes on after I have warmed up.

[ChaseR]

I have this same problem right now... I think I will poke around with it tomorrow. The light only comes on after I have warmed up.

Yeah man the light comes on during my morning commute at the same time every morning being warmed up. Is there a way to bypass (remove) the EGR, I know with the K20Z in My Si there is a blockoff plate availiable.

[DBMaster]

I had that same code a couple of years ago. I read and was told that usually the EGR is the LAST thing to go in that system, but in my case the EGR needed to be replaced. The lift sensor is an integral part and cannot be purchased separately. When I took off the EGR to clean it I noticed that when I applied vacuum it would open all the way but there was a slight sticking point about halfway through it's upward travel. This slight hesitation in opening was enough to trip the sensor and set the code. I found no way to fix it so I replaced the EGR. The EGR is one of those emission control devices that actually helps - other than just reducing NOx emissions. By introducing a little exhaust into the intake the detonation is made a bit more even and engine knock is prevented. I don't support removing it even though others in this forum do.

[nfs480]

Yeah, mine did the same thing last year and I cleaned it, replaced the EGR control solenoid, and then finally replaced the EGR valve itself. Replacing the valve itself fixed the problem, so i'm willing to bet money that's what you're going to have to do to fix it.

[Rendon LX-i]

i have that problem now....im just going to put a plate on it....clean it also see what happens

[ChaseR]

well there goes another $195 freaking dollars. Think a junk yard one will suffice?

Could this also Be why I have hesitation below 3k RPM when im not in WOT? After 3k RPM it's almost like a VTEC crossover, the engine breathes better This is prob the secondaries opening up but the change is a lot more pronounced.

[ChaseR]

http://www.partsamerica.com/productdetail.aspx?MfrCode=NIE&MfrPartNumber=FE3735&PartType=282&PTSet=A

[nfs480]

It's $157 on hondaautomotiveparts.com

[Pico]

theres one on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-89-Honda-Accord-EGR-Exhaust-Gas-Recirculation-Valve_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39Q3 a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q 2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem140269887244QQitemZ1402698872 44
$110.00 free shipping

[DBMaster]

The one on eBay is not the right one. I bought mine from Majestic Honda.

[nfs480]

Yeah, I got mine from Majestic Honda too, you can't go wrong with that one so if I were you I would just bite the bullet and get the Honda one.

[Dr_Snooz]

If you haven't confirmed that the valve is bad, you should start there. Warm up the car and apply vacuum to the EGR valve. The engine should stall. If it doesn't, it's a fair bet the valve is bad, but it could just be dirty. Definitely start with a cleaning in that case. If it still doesn't stall, replace the valve.

[DBMaster]

If you haven't confirmed that the valve is bad, you should start there. Warm up the car and apply vacuum to the EGR valve. The engine should stall. If it doesn't, it's a fair bet the valve is bad, but it could just be dirty. Definitely start with a cleaning in that case. If it still doesn't stall, replace the valve.

Mine passed this test before I replaced it. The sticking halfway open did not prevent the valve from opening all the way. It just caused a slight hesitation. I'll bet the car still would have passed emission testing as well. But, then I would have to be looking at the stupid yellow light on the dash. Cleaning is definitely a good first step. If sticking is the problem here cleaning just might help. I am not one to suggest removing the EGR and blocking the opening. I think it is an important emission control device that does not hamper performance. You will almost surely not pass emission testing without an EGR, but there are bigger cosmic issues than just passing inspection.

[nfs480]

Mine passed this test before I replaced it. The sticking halfway open did not prevent the valve from opening all the way. It just caused a slight hesitation. I'll bet the car still would have passed emission testing as well. But, then I would have to be looking at the stupid yellow light on the dash. Cleaning is definitely a good first step. If sticking is the problem here cleaning just might help. I am not one to suggest removing the EGR and blocking the opening. I think it is an important emission control device that does not hamper performance. You will almost surely not pass emission testing without an EGR, but there are bigger cosmic issues than just passing inspection.

Mine also passed all of the diagnostic tests from the shop manual and I still had to replace the valve itself to get the light to go away.

[Dr_Snooz]

Fair enough. It just sounded like buying a new valve was gonna be step #1 and I wanted to prevent that.

[nfs480]

Yeah, clean it first, but don't make the mistake I did and replace the control solenoid before the valve itself, if it passes all the tests and cleaning doesn't help just replace it.

[ChaseR]

Ok cleaned it, and all is well now.. Soaked it in WD40 for about 30 mins while I did other shit..

[nfs480]

cool, it seems you were far luckier than I was.

[ChaseR]

yeah no CEL light as of now, drove for about 20 miles. awesome.

[87roach]

Could this also Be why I have hesitation below 3k RPM when im not in WOT? After 3k RPM it's almost like a VTEC crossover, the engine breathes better This is prob the secondaries opening up but the change is a lot more pronounced.

I have this same thing right now, maybe I will try giving it a good clean. I'm not going to replace it because it's not even functioning, but I would like the light to go away and see if its giving me my other idle/hesitation issue.

[ChaseR]

light came on last night but not this morning on the way to work. The EGR itself is not stuck, this leads me to believe it is the sensor. Or a bad connection

[2oodoor]

Ive been thinking about this one, something I noted was in the schematic one of the signal wires for the egr position (lift) sensor feeds thru the temp sensor.
The green/yellow wire comes out of the ecu thru the temp sensor then it turns green/white out of the temp sensor to the egr lift sensor. That same green white wire also goes to the intake air temp sensor.
The yellow wire out of the egr lift sens. goes back to the ecu, I think that is the output signal from the egr lift.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/1223995280.jpg

[Dr_Snooz]

You're still getting 12 flashes, right?

[ChaseR]

yes

[nfs480]

My theory is that the sensor in the EGR valve is bad, which is what happened to mine. Problem was that in order to replace the sensor you have to replace the valve. If you've cleaned it and it passed all of the tests from the shop manual i'm willing to bet you'll have to replace the valve itself to get the CEL to go out for good.

[ChaseR]

no CEL all day today, I wiggled the connector so that could have been it too. I still have hesitation below 3000 RPM when not in WOT and I think my timing may Be off. I also have a whistling sound coming from my throttle body when at partial thrttle. Its annoying and only started after I adjusted My Idle.

[Dr_Snooz]

We finally have a good shop manual available on the board:

1989 USDM Manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php)

The EGR diagnostic procedure starts on p. 12-79. It's time to go through it. If you still can't find the problem, your EGR ports could be full of crap. You can try cleaning them:

Cleaning EGR ports (http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl053c.htm)

I haven't done this, so don't know what to expect.

Your vacuum leak at the throttle body could be your hesitation problem and can make your EGR system go screwy. You might want to fix that.

[ChaseR]

We finally have a good shop manual available on the board:

1989 USDM Manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php)

The EGR diagnostic procedure starts on p. 12-79. It's time to go through it. If you still can't find the problem, your EGR ports could be full of crap. You can try cleaning them:

Cleaning EGR ports (http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl053c.htm)

I haven't done this, so don't know what to expect.

Your vacuum leak at the throttle body could be your hesitation problem and can make your EGR system go screwy. You might want to fix that.

Well I don't have a TB vacuum leak.

[VIPER1988]

i had the same problem about 8 months ago. ended up being a ported vacuum switch on the side of the thermostat housing. it was about $35 at advance auto parts. good luck

[ChaseR]

talking about thsi right here?

http://www.autozone.com/R,2390404/vehicleId,1044201/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,3145/partType,00212/shopping/partProductDetail.htm

[VIPER1988]

yeah thats the one

[watch4it]

Iam new to this site, and new to this problem on my 1987 Accord 2.0L.
I have used the manual from here to start the diagnostic procedures for the PGM-FI light on the dash. Living in calif it will not pass smog with the light on!
292,006 miles on the car. I have put new bearings mains and rods, Did a valve job on the head,and new rings, the cylinderbores just needed the glaze busted in them,they looked beautiful and measured fine.
Here is my problem: Just the last year(smog every 2 yrs here) the pgm-fi light came on. I had replaced the pvc valve when I did the head so started to look on the web and found most all referenced the EGR Valve. Started at the top of the list and ordered a new EGR valve Yikes $203.00, Mine would not read continuity through the wire conections. Ended up taking the switch off the top and cleaned the shaft up and it checked fine after reassembly. So started to follow the check list and up to hose #24 all checked ok. Unplug the 2P connector Vacume control box and tested CVC valve and had no vacume. Tried to find one nobody had it so went to pick and pull found same car 190,000 miles on it and bought the control box for $23.00. To test for vacume It states to hook the2P conector to the battery (PG12-81) my plug wires were not in the same location as the one pictured(mine were on the same row but on each end of the plug). Started car and still no 8" vacum so went into control box, removed hose between cvc valve and air chamber, still no vacume. But here is the last part of my problem. I disconnected the wires to the 2P connection kinda hooked thing back to drive the car to the Pick and Pull yard and it would not start! I didn't check for spark but checked (all) the fuzes, all Ok. so turned the key on to see if ECU was blinking a code. It didn't blink at all. Nothing:devil: So I figures I would pull the 2P connection and see if I used the wires in it like it said and still no ECU blink but the engine started and ran. Soon as I unplugged the wire from the positive terminal on the battery to the 2P connection the engine would die.
Summary: No ECU light blinking a code.
No engine run without jumper wire from pos on battery to the
Blk/Yel on 2P connection.
Could I have fried the Ignition control solenoid valve or something else in the
Blk Box? Hate to just start replacing just any ole part as a solution, and I don't find anything posted with this type of problem listed. Please help if ya can.
Ps I too already have the hammer routine down pat!!:devil:
Sincerely: watch4it a Honda driver. Better than having my throttle stick to the floor.

[watch4it]

Also found that using a noid light on number one injector shows no signal to injector unless jumper wires are from battery to 2P connection. The car will run with the jumper wired 2P connection but it shure won't pass smog!!
Is this the death of my accord. Uses no oil not a oil leak anywhere and if I cant seem to find a solution she will become a parts car and I will be walkin,(seriously).
Also iam interested in what ECU,ECM will work in this car? I purchased one out of a 1989 Accord but it had an automatic 2.0L in it but had lower mileage
than mine. Cant seem to find any info on ECU Identifacation or crossover info on web.:sadwave:
Thanks 4 the help great site!!!:o
Watch4it

[Oldblueaccord]

Make sure your Main Relay under the dash is working correctly. Do a search here in this section or a google search. Its the relay that latches in the fuel pump with the ignition curcuit.

I don't think you did anything by unplugging the map sensor except making another code possibly.

As far as the EGR its a tough fix as you have read here besides replacing everything.

wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Wow. Long post.

Okay. There are a few things wrong here. When buying from the yard, remember that what you're buying has, at most, a 50% probability of being good. You had verified a bad CVC, which is good. Replacing the entire box was not so good. The CVC is only one of several components in the box. By replacing them all with unknown junkyard parts, you introduced a lot of potential problems into the mix. Second, you mention that your wiring was different from the manual so you hooked up your power differently. Basically, you put power to the box in a way the manual didn't specify. My suspicion is that your wiring isn't any different from the manual and that by hooking things up as you did, you cooked the box.

Long and short: put your old box back in. Go back to the yard and buy ONLY the CVC (take the box apart) and put just that one part into your box.

Report back what happens. Good work on the car, by the way. Sounds like a keeper.

[watch4it]

Wow. Long post.

Okay. There are a few things wrong here. When buying from the yard, remember that what you're buying has, at most, a 50% probability of being good. You had verified a bad CVC, which is good. Replacing the entire box was not so good. The CVC is only one of several components in the box. By replacing them all with unknown junkyard parts, you introduced a lot of potential problems into the mix. Second, you mention that your wiring was different from the manual so you hooked up your power differently. Basically, you put power to the box in a way the manual didn't specify. My suspicion is that your wiring isn't any different from the manual and that by hooking things up as you did, you cooked the box.

Long and short: put your old box back in. Go back to the yard and buy ONLY the CVC (take the box apart) and put just that one part into your box.

Report back what happens. Good work on the car, by the way. Sounds like a keeper.

No I didn't replace the whole control box. I did replace the cvc and replugged in the 2P connection and the engine would not start. The 2P connection has 2 rows of female spade type connectors the diagram in the manual show using
the top right hand corner and the middle connection of the lower row connections. Page 12-80. My plug has the top left corner as the blk/yel and the bottom right corner as the red wire. My center wire as in the diagram is white. This is with the plug in the same orentation as in the picture on pg 12-80.
So I re jumpered the wires + batt to blk/yel and - batt to Red and the engine will run again. Without the jumper wires No code will flash in ECU and using a Noid light to check the pulsing to the injectors, there is none ecxept when you use the jumper wires,and the ECU will flash no codes. So I went no farther
One reply was the main relay under the dash I'll check it tomorrow but the Engine runs with the jumper wires in the plug so the fuel pump has to be working then and nothing works without them except the starter, dome lights etc which run off the battery. I was wondering what the Ignition Control Solenoid Valve Page 12-6 would have anything to do with this?
Sorry to rattle on I always figure to say enough to describe the type of problem will help to diagnose.
Thks 4 the reply:
Bob:pc:
PS I'll change just the cvc and do the vacum check and see what happens tomorrow (i will have to use the jumper wires to make it run though)

[watch4it]

:bandance:I checked the Main relay under the dash Left side around fuze box! It was hiding:rant: I thought I read somewhere "Good luck getting it Remounted" well I found it is possible, but for a 65 yr old man the flexibility thing is kind of a new learning curve:omg:Here is the link with the test listed. I still have no pulses to the injectors and the engine will not Run without the positive battery terminal hooked to the blk/yel wire in the 2P plug.:confused:
Thanks for the Help!!
Honda owner: Still holdin on

Well that didn't work!!! Because I only have 3 posts I could not put the link here for the test of the main relay. It was a good link and it was hard for me to find anything about troubleshootin It.
Sorry! Guess if ya want it I could send it to ya.:hmph:
http://autorepair.about.com/od/enginetroubleshootin1/a/hon_mnrelay_tst.htm

[watch4it]

Here is a list of my mistakes or lack of experiance that I have learned from:rockon:
1. I don't have enough posts to be able to share links that might be
advantagous to this site.
2. The manual that is shown at this site is for 1989 Honda Accords. Mine is
a 1987.

3. The diagram shown in the 1989 manual Page 12-80. ( I looked at the test
of using the external wire part of the plug not the female part on the Blk
Box. The 1987 Manual I found (which I cant give ya the link see #1) gave
alot clearer picture and the color code of the wires matches, Blk/yel but
the other is orange.
4. Iam almost certain but havent tested to make shure, (it states to
substitute a good ECM and see if that fixes it). That I cooked the ECM
Does anyone have a loaner?


5. :hmph:


Any Idea what else I might have fried by hooking
up the external wireing to the battery using the 1989 manual discription to the external male part of the plug? I used the same sequence described to the blk/yel & Red wire on the plug. Hint: Now if I hook just the + jumper wire
to the blk/yel it is what will make the injector pulse and the fuel pump come
on and the engine run. Remove that jumper wire and the engine Dies!
Thanks so far for the help:
Sincerely: watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Just in case Watch4it, did you check the fuses? Does the digital clock work before this happened?
One day I was doing some checkup when the engine died. It would crank, but it would not start. No PGM_FI light, no blinking ECU codes under the seat... .
After a few minutes I started fiddling with the fuses under the dash. One of them was labeled either ECU or EFI (can't remember now) but it was blown; I replaced it, and the car sprang back to life (and the clock too). The clock (and the dashboard light) should have sprang something on my mind but somehow it did not.
If you jump wires and the car runs, I would look for blown fuses.
The 89 black box probably has more wires than the 87 because some other stuff is in there that the 86-87 did not have; vapor canister solenoid (another emissions device), and second intake runner solenoid are two of the things that 88-89 had that 86-87 did not (or had a different implementation). Still, the 89 service manual should be useful for EGR troubleshooting
HOpe it helps

[Dr_Snooz]

If you leave the jumper off, then you are diagnosing a standard no-start condition. You need fuel, spark and air to make combustion, so one of those three is missing. It sounds like you aren't getting fuel. I say it sounds like it, but please verify this first. If this is indeed the case, start by checking the fuel pump. Move to the main relay, then the fuel filter and finally the injector resistor. The '89 manual has tests for all these on pp. 12-64, 12-66, 12-63 and 12-61 respectively. Don't get too hung up on doing exactly like the manual says. For instance, when checking the fuel pressure, you don't necessarily need to know exactly what PSI it's putting out. You just need to know that gas comes out in torrents and not a little dribble. Also check the injector ground wire. It comes off the wire rail that sits on top of the injector rail and goes down to the intake manifold. It can come loose and cause all kinds of fun. If you aren't comfortable extrapolating from the '89 manual, there is an '86 manual with various supplements here (http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html). This is a manual for the Russian market, so you'll still be extrapolating, but maybe less so.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[watch4it]

Well Iam back to the first step. Got her to run again.I had checked the fuzes in the first place and all were ok! Then I started to do the diagnose with the wires from the battery to the WRONG side of the 2P connection. It was a fuze that popped! that lost my ECU power.
Started it back up and let it run untill cooling fans came on and NO PGM-FI light!!! Then I test drove it into town to find that it just took a little longer to come on than before.
So I'll start the process over again from the begining in the morning!
Thanks so much for the Sharing of your experiances and knowledge. I would have thrown away a good car. But then I would be walkin, (our good economy
and all) Barely pay for matenence and gas. Ow!!
Thnks, Sincerely: watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Good work bro! Let us know when you get it running and are driving around with a big goofy grin.

[kentwat]

Just for a fyi, mine is an 86 and I mainly used the manual for the pgm-fi test for egr testing. I swapped my egr out several times. It would pass the vacuum test and then the light would come on right down the road. Mine after using the 89 manual turned out to be the cvc as you stated. It was just a bit frustrating since they were talking about tests in the manual and the 86 accord manual didn't have the tests. ECO and the Dr. got me up and running. Thanks again guys.

[watch4it]

Well I guess Iam going to have to give up:Owned2:. I cant seem to find valid info to help me through the diagnostic. Iam on Social Security and I only have $100 bucks a month left from the bills to spend on this, and the worst of it is I seem to be wasting most of the money on not needed things that don't improve the product.
I found a 1987 Manual online that speaks a totally different language than the chiltons manual or the 1989 manual of yours and I haven't looked at the Russian version. :facepalm:.
The chilton manuals words are " Stop engine. Disconnect #24 hose from CVC valve inside the emmisions box. Substitute a vacum gage. Restart engine" (Hook vacum gage to what!!!!) the hose or the cvc valve!!!
Next in process " Stop engine. Deconnect #24 hose to the CVC valve, disconnect the unnumbered hose from the cvc valve. Attach a vacum gauge to the open cvc port. Restart engine." ( leave the other hose off too or reconnect it to cvc??)
One manual says to pinch hose #17 and see if there is vacum to the EGR valve. One manual says hose 17 is for the a/c Idle boost Solinoid valve and the other says it is for the air cleaner.
I guess it is just knowing the language or the bare basics of the engine repair!.
Any how I guess I wont make my deadline for my smog and I cannot afford the penalities of filing the registration late. oH WELL GETTIN OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES.
Thanks for all the help, and it wasn't your fault i failed it is mine.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
supplemental.

Sincerely:watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

No self pity. You can have self pity if your family has been crushed by an 8.8 quake. If you haven't, then as far as I can tell, you have a running car that will never die, a great manual and a very knowledgeable resource here at 3geez. It's easy to get discouraged when dealing with smog stuff, but that won't get the car fixed. Okay? So go start it, warm it up to temp, put vacuum to the EGR valve and tell me if it stalls.

You definitely want to stick with the Honda manual, even if it's not the right year. Take the Chilton manual, put it in a drawer and use it when you run out of toilet paper.

[watch4it]

Thanks:D
It does do that. Warm it up pull hose 16 off of egr and hook vacum gage to egr and barely give it a pump and the engine starts to die. Pump it a little more and yes it does die.:chainsaw:
Thanks i needed that:slap:
watch4it

[Oldblueaccord]

Try you local library maybe for some reference help. They might be able to find a manual for you year car.

wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Good. If you disconnect the #24 vacuum line (coming from the intake manifold) are you getting vacuum? If so, how much?

[watch4it]

Cold at first start: 19 in.HG
after 6 mile drive: 22 in.HG
:bowrofl:
Thnks: watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

That's great vacuum. Wow. With the engine at temp, are you getting vacuum at the #16 hose that goes to the EGR valve?

[watch4it]

No Vacuum at the hose end of #16
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

That's great vacuum. Wow. With the engine at temp, are you getting vacuum at the #16 hose that goes to the EGR valve?

Vacuum only reaches the EGR valve when the solenoid closes; otherwise #16 is at atmosphere pressure through #17 hose. #17 attaches between the air filter and throttle body.
One thing I did when testing my code 12 was plug #17 at idle; idle would become rough and eventually the engine would stop as the EGR valve actuate.
#17 is connected to the EGR solenoid (a cylinder-shaped metallic thing with two hose connectors -one on each end); and the other end of the solenoid goes... to a plastic cylinder inside the box if I remember right. When the EGR solenoid closes, then the vacuum produced by the flying-saucer thing would actuate the EGR valve through that plastic cylinder.

If he has vacuum inside the box, then the next step would be whether the disk-shaped thing (can't recall the f... name) inside the box provides steady vacuum (6-8 in HG) for accurate EGR operation.

Oh, and I used the 1989 manual for the testing; the EGR system is identical. Remember, though that there are other things inside the black box and those may differ from 86-87 to 88-89.

Please check with the manual as I'm writing from memory (I have not opened the black box in quite a while) Hope this helps.

I may go to the jy tomorrow morning so I might go hunting for a working EGR if you eventually need one. They run cheap if one knows how to find a working one... let me know.
I also have the flying-saucer thingy, the plastic cylinder and probably the EGR solenoid valve too. I took them from another 3G just in case and I remember they worked -swapped back and forth with mine. I have no use for any of those; I only have to find them.

That reminds me that I should have posted how to diagnose the EGR valve itself...:banghead:

[watch4it]

Thanks!!
I think my EGR Valve Checks ok. If ya had the way to test it, Ok. I cleaned the shaft in the EGR switch and seemed to free it up alot and also sprayed some contact cleaner into the switch and measured the voltage using the center wire as neg. I got an increasing voltage on one side (w/vacuum applied) and a decreasing voltage ( or ohm I should say) on the other side. I think that is what its suppose to do.
As far as parts I think I have enough bought right now. I have replaced the CVC valve and did a vacume check on the old one and it didn't test ok, the jy valve tested ok. I bought the whole black box for parts. The car was way lower mileage than mine. So I have all the parts from that box I can use.
If it comes to changing something I can't find I will diffently ask here at
3GEEZ.
:bowrofl: Thanks to all for this kind of thoughtfulness and help!:jaw: Usually never find this kind of help anymore.
Thanks: watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Your EGR valve seems to be OK; that is the way I tested mine.

It seems you have everything you need; at least for the EGR vacuum circuit I have not seen differences between 86-87 and 88-89.
Make sure that you make notes when disassembling the black box to re-connect all the hoses the way they were originally; there are so many f... small hoses and bends...
I screwed once with another circuit there (A/C vacuum solenoid) and the car would keep the high idle even when I turned the A/C off!

Follow the test as in the manual; you'll get that fixed

[Dr_Snooz]

That brings us back to the 2P connector that went wrong the last time. I'd like you to set up the jumper wires like you did last time. However, before putting power to anything, would you be able to take a picture of what you did and post it here? If you can also record the colors and positions of the wires coming off that connector and going into the box, that'd be awesome. I'd like to see what's different between yours and the '89s. Are you able to do that?

[watch4it]

That brings us back to the 2P connector that went wrong the last time. I'd like you to set up the jumper wires like you did last time. However, before putting power to anything, would you be able to take a picture of what you did and post it here? If you can also record the colors and positions of the wires coming off that connector and going into the box, that'd be awesome. I'd like to see what's different between yours and the '89s. Are you able to do that?
Yes I think I can:nervous: I do have a digital camera, cheap one but I'll try.
Just one question, Is the 2P connection the main one coming out of the Right side of the blk/box or the one of the two which clip on the frnt of the blk/box on the metal bracket on the left(looking at it from the front) or (car language setting in the drivers seat looking forward would make it the one on the right!!!! lol. One manual shows it one way and another shows it the other. I used the main one coming out of the side first time. Yikes
Thnks Ya All. You too Hammer man!!
watch4it

[watch4it]

Well here goes with another test. Trying to post pics!!:banghead:
They are laid out the way I took the 2P connection to be looking at the manual that is the way I ran the test to the using the male end of the 2P plug. Is one of the other plugs to the front of the black box the 2P plug?
Stuck again No pics. Cant copy paste Pics?

[Dr_Snooz]

Well here goes with another test. Trying to post pics!!:banghead:
They are laid out the way I took the 2P connection to be looking at the manual that is the way I ran the test to the using the male end of the 2P plug. Is one of the other plugs to the front of the black box the 2P plug?
Stuck again No pics. Cant copy paste Pics?

Upload the pics to a photo sharing site like photobucket.com. Then paste the link into your post. The connector you want is on the side of the box facing the passenger side of the car.

[watch4it]

I hope they are here.C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\Honda pic's.rtf
At image shack at the bottom of the post?

So the Image Shack dosen't work the same as PhotoBucket?? and I thought mechanical work was hard, Yikes
One of these ways has to work OR just loan me your hammer it will just take a second!!!!

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, that's a start. The second link works but the pic is too small to really see anything. It surely looks like you don't have it hooked up correctly. You want to hook positive to the black wire with a yellow stripe. The other goes to the red wire. Does that make sense?

I'm assuming that your red jumper wire is going to the positive battery terminal and the black one is going to the negative terminal. Please confirm that though. Try hooking it up again and see if you can get a better picture.

[Oldblueaccord]

I hope they are here.C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\Honda pic's.rtf
At image shack at the bottom of the post?
http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201986%20Honda%20accord%20How% 20I%20wired%20it/
So the Image Shack dosen't work the same as PhotoBucket?? and I thought mechanical work was hard, Yikes
One of these ways has to work OR just loan me your hammer it will just take a second!!!!
http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/?action=view&current=PI5Send1.jpg

your pretty close. I use imageshack to upload the photo. It has to be on the web somewhere for the whole world to see it otherwise.

The links they provide I cut and paste onto here. Use preview post button to see if your link works.

wp

[Oldblueaccord]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3980/img1242.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/i/img1242.jpg/)

I direct copied the Fourm link I also resized the pictures 800x600 15 inch moniter.


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7438/img1241g.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/img1241g.jpg/)


http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6963/img1239q.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/img1239q.jpg/)

[watch4it]

more spaceWow nice pic's. I will try and resize my pictures.
If that is the 2P connection then I have used the wrong one!
Thanks for the help old blue I hope you and Dr. Snooze are working hand in hand. I get confused pretty easy. Gettin old ain't for Sissies. I think I'am losin my mind or sometimes quite frankly Don't Give A D--, Or really "just tired of the struggel"
You all are great on this site, THANK YOU again!!
watch4it

[watch4it]

ok using up more space again.
I tried a new upload of pics, here
http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/
I can double click on the photos or right click on them and get them to be larger. Made comment on photo
with wires on white paper note.
I miss typed the folder title it should read 1987 not 86!!!

[LX-incredible]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3980/img1242.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/i/img1242.jpg/)

I direct copied the Fourm link I also resized the pictures 800x600 15 inch moniter.


http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6963/img1239q.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/img1239q.jpg/)

That's the MAP sensor connector.

[watch4it]

Well, that's a start. The second link works but the pic is too small to really see anything. It surely looks like you don't have it hooked up correctly. You want to hook positive to the black wire with a yellow stripe. The other goes to the red wire. Does that make sense?

I'm assuming that your red jumper wire is going to the positive battery terminal and the black one is going to the negative terminal. Please confirm that though. Try hooking it up again and see if you can get a better picture.

Yes that is the way they are going. Pos-blk/yel, neg- red

[Oldblueaccord]

What other connector does he need the EGR inside the box ?



wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Yes that is the way they are going. Pos-blk/yel, neg- red

I want you to use this terminal.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq132/dr_snooz/Presentation1-6.jpg

Try it again and let me know what you get.

[watch4it]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/PI5Send1-1.jpg The insides of the blk box is upside down so is the plug that you designated for me to use. I got zero vacuum at the canister, but I can hear it and feel it coming out of the CVC valve.
I did hook #16 back to EGR valve before I ran this check and I left the connections to the battery hooked up. Pos to blk/yel, and neg to Red wires.
I had already changed the CVC valve at the time when I ran the first group of tests using the male end (wrong end) of the 2P plug. I ran a vacuum check on the CVC valves and the one out of the JY box seemed like it checked ok where my old original tested different as far as holding vacuum. So I changed it.
Sincerely: watch4it:uh:

[ecogabriel]

That canister you mentioned has three hose connections (correct me if I'm wrong I have not seen it in a while).
One goes to the vacuum modulator (the round thing to the left of the canister). Another connector goes to a solenoid valve (metallic with two connectors) and the third one is hose #16 that goes to the EGR valve.
With engine running, if you disconnect the plastic canister from the vacuum modulator there would be no vacuum in it.
As for the vacuum modulator, you should expect to see vacuum between 6 and 8 inHG; 5 inHg is enough to fully open the EGR valve.
If you connect the vacuum modulator to the canister (the 90-degree bent hose) AND plug the hose going to the solenoid valve, you should see vacuum in #16. Actually, with engine running the EGR will open, idle will become rough and engine will most likely stop. If that works then the vacuum part of the EGR (save for the solenoid valve) works.
The solenoid valve can be tested applying battery voltage directly; it should make a clicking noise if it works; make sure that when you apply voltage to it, it is already disconnected from the car's wiring. If it works it will close, vacuum will open EGR valve and idle will be rough or engine will stop.

it seems you are getting closer to discovering what is wrong with the EGR system; hope the other stuff works out OK too.

[Dr_Snooz]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/PI5Send1-1.jpg The insides of the blk box is upside down so is the plug that you designated for me to use. I got zero vacuum at the canister, but I can hear it and feel it coming out of the CVC valve.
I did hook #16 back to EGR valve before I ran this check and I left the connections to the battery hooked up. Pos to blk/yel, and neg to Red wires.
I had already changed the CVC valve at the time when I ran the first group of tests using the male end (wrong end) of the 2P plug. I ran a vacuum check on the CVC valves and the one out of the JY box seemed like it checked ok where my old original tested different as far as holding vacuum. So I changed it.
Sincerely: watch4it:uh:

The black wire should be connected to a center spade, but yours looks to be hanging off an outside spade. Are you sure you're wiring this up correctly? Please be very sure because you're close to spending money again. If your diagnosis comes out wrong because you didn't have the wires hooked up right, then you're going to be sad and I'm not going to be able to help you.

[watch4it]

The black wire should be connected to a center spade, but yours looks to be hanging off an outside spade. Are you sure you're wiring this up correctly? Please be very sure because you're close to spending money again. If your diagnosis comes out wrong because you didn't have the wires hooked up right, then you're going to be sad and I'm not going to be able to help you.
Yes it is the outside spade that is the Red wire and the upper corner is 2(Two) blk/yel wires, That is where the wires are located in the plug you circled in my Picture My wiring dosent look like it is in the same order as in the manual. So I never hooked them up by the diagram, just hooked them by the color's stated. Course I used the wrong end of the 2P connection the first time i ran the test but it seems to have survived that with just a blown fuze.
Center wire male plug Is light beigh or white
center wire female plug is yellow w/Green tracer
:nuts: I know we are doing this the hard way!! comunication across the web is rough. But Iam trying to do just as You ask and use the colors you ask. The color arangement on my plugs isn't the same as in the manual. I wrote them out on the one picture at PhotoBucket.
Thanks for the warning Iam staying in step with your requests not doing anything on my own. If The car remains dead it is not your fault, It would be dead without your help anyhow!
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/PI5Send3.jpg
Thanks again:watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

If you follow the wires from the plug, where do they go? We're trying to diagnose the CVC or the EGR Control Solenoid Valve, so one of those should be getting power. If you're wiring up something else, then we need to do it differently.

[watch4it]

If you follow the wires from the plug, where do they go? We're trying to diagnose the CVC or the EGR Control Solenoid Valve, so one of those should be getting power. If you're wiring up something else, then we need to do it differently.

Iam wireing it by the colors stated
Red to the neg on the battery
Blk/yel to the positive on the battery
NO Matter where they are in the sequence in the plug.:uh:
All the smilies apply to ME NOT TO you. Hope you arnent taken them wrong.

The wires go to the 2 electical components in the black box. Ignition control solenoid valve and the Bypass control solenoid valve.
Thks for all your hard work!!
Watch4it

[ecogabriel]

I do not know if this would help, but I went outside and took a picture of my black box and the wires.
It is from a 1986 Accord LX-i automatic; I took it with the connector clip pointed upwards as it goes in the black box.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6386/fscn0706.jpg

[watch4it]

I do not know if this would help, but I went outside and took a picture of my black box and the wires.
It is from a 1986 Accord LX-i automatic; I took it with the connector clip pointed upwards as it goes in the black box.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6386/fscn0706.jpg

Wow what nice Pics you guys can take!!:jaw: My wires look diff maybey cause iam a standard trans? No i take that Back that is where my red and my blk/yel are located. Same locations and same colors in that order But you are showing the Male end of the 2P connection or the female end that is in the metal mounting brkt? OOPS I always open mouth and insert foot. I see the female down in the lower left corner of your pic!!

[watch4it]

That canister you mentioned has three hose connections (correct me if I'm wrong I have not seen it in a while).
One goes to the vacuum modulator (the round thing to the left of the canister). Another connector goes to a solenoid valve (metallic with two connectors) and the third one is hose #16 that goes to the EGR valve.
With engine running, if you disconnect the plastic canister from the vacuum modulator there would be no vacuum in it.
As for the vacuum modulator, you should expect to see vacuum between 6 and 8 inHG; 5 inHg is enough to fully open the EGR valve.
If you connect the vacuum modulator to the canister (the 90-degree bent hose) AND plug the hose going to the solenoid valve, you should see vacuum in #16. Actually, with engine running the EGR will open, idle will become rough and engine will most likely stop. If that works then the vacuum part of the EGR (save for the solenoid valve) works.
The solenoid valve can be tested applying battery voltage directly; it should make a clicking noise if it works; make sure that when you apply voltage to it, it is already disconnected from the car's wiring. If it works it will close, vacuum will open EGR valve and idle will be rough or engine will stop.

it seems you are getting closer to discovering what is wrong with the EGR system; hope the other stuff works out OK too.

Yes your right three connections on the canister. two eletrical switches in the box wired to the female plug on the blk/box, ignition control and bypass control solenoid valves.
Thanks.

[ecogabriel]

The photo is from the male connector in the wire maze. It plugs into the female one in the black box.

I took it from the back so you could see the wires' colors as clear as possible. Sorry I could not pull them out more my wires are so f... hardened and brittle.

[Dr_Snooz]

Iam wireing it by the colors stated
Red to the neg on the battery
Blk/yel to the positive on the battery
NO Matter where they are in the sequence in the plug.:uh:
All the smilies apply to ME NOT TO you. Hope you arnent taken them wrong.

The wires go to the 2 electical components in the black box. Ignition control solenoid valve and the Bypass control solenoid valve.
Thks for all your hard work!!
Watch4it

So your jumper wires are not powering the right modules. Ignore the wire colors and run your jumpers to the positions on the connector shown in the manual (p.12-80). Take a pic before powering it so we can make sure you aren't about to roast anything.

[watch4it]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location!:uh: Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location!:uh: Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

I would say keep walking the manual with snooz. I am walking this from my memory after reading the manual and online stuff on how EGR systems work. I assumed (in my case right) that wiring would be OK but you may not assume that.
Best of all, you are learning out of this experience; that's the best part of it.

[watch4it]

Well I checked out the colors of my wires and where the go to.
1. the EGR solenoid has 1 post Orange & 1 post blk/yel
2. the Ignition Control solenoid has 1 post Red & 1 post blk/yel
3. the Bypass control solenoid has 1 post Yel/grn & 1 post blk/yel

Fom the 2P connection that the Dr said to use there is a splitter and a coupler that divides the blk/yel wire to go to all of the devices. My 2P plug has a lower row of (3) connections: Red, ylw/grn, orng. The top row is (1) connection in the top right corner and it is Blk/yel. I had my wife look at the colors to get them confirmed! Plug from open end clip retainer at top looks something like
_
_ _ _ (d--It can't get the dashes to line up, the dash on the top row is on the right corner not the left)with the top corner being the blk/yellow.
I did jump the EGR control valve and it makes the selenoid clicking noise so took the top with the vacume hoses off and watched the plunger go up and down, all ports seemed clean.
One port or hose #23 goes to the drivers side of the injectors plenum chamber the other hose #18 goes to the air cleaner neck before the intake valve on the injector.
If I dissconect the elbow hose to the canister from the CVC valve I get 0 vacuum to the EGR control Solenoid valve. The elbow hose on the CVC DOES have more that 8" hg vacuum to it through the CVC valve from hose #24 which comes from on the front of the plenium chamber.
I don't see how I can get a vacuum reading off of the canister with the vacuum supply disconnected:beat: But that is the way it tests no vacuum to the canister with the hose disconnected from the CVC.
I did check continuity of the wires to the EGR control Solenoid before I ran the check That was the blk/yel & Orange
watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location!:uh: Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

The EGR system is driven by operating conditions. Just because a part does something when you power it, doesn't mean it's doing the right thing under the right conditions. Of course, if you get the hang of things and want to move forward, then by all means, do so.

So yeah, yours is different. I'm going to go with the way you connected it originally: blk/yellow and red. Go ahead and power it. Remember that you want the engine at temp when you do this. Let us know what you find out.

[watch4it]

The EGR system is driven by operating conditions. Just because a part does something when you power it, doesn't mean it's doing the right thing under the right conditions. Of course, if you get the hang of things and want to move forward, then by all means, do so.

So yeah, yours is different. I'm going to go with the way you connected it originally: blk/yellow and red. Go ahead and power it. Remember that you want the engine at temp when you do this. Let us know what you find out.

So it will be the ignition control selonoid that we want to test first. That is what the red& blk/yel go too? and thats from the 2P plug you circled in the photo.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, the blk/yellow goes to everything, so the circuit is going to be completed by the red wire. It should only power the CVC...

....or a fireball will engulf your house. I'm not sure which. Just kidding. It should be fine.

[watch4it]

Well, the blk/yellow goes to everything, so the circuit is going to be completed by the red wire. It should only power the CVC...

....or a fireball will engulf your house. I'm not sure which. Just kidding. It should be fine.

Ok:beat: I'll try it in the morning. I have an 8:00 am appointment but it should only last about an hr and a half.
Power the CVC?? it is just a vacuum pod there are no wires running to it.
But if red & blk/yel give me the fire ball I'll just use the ins money and we wont have to fix this old antique.:naughty:
Watch4it

[ecogabriel]

If your EGR solenoid clicks when powered then it may be working OK. If you want to know precisely, disconnect #16 from the canister inside the black box and attach a vacuum gauge; make sure the other two ports of the canister are connected where they should go. With the engine running, power the EGR solenoid and you should see CVC vaccuum in the canister too
Better yet, if you have a tee connector place it between the canister and the #16 and attach the vacuum to the tee; that way when you power your EGR solenoid vaccuum should reach the EGR valve. The engine should run rough or stop when the EGR valve works.
I wonder if you have tested the EGR valve for holding vacuum; if it has a punctured diaphragm it may not open as much as it should (if at all) and then set a code 12. The test I did only tests for a non-working plunger sensor.

Don't give up on an otherwise working car; problems with emissions systems are common and solvable. Besides, our cars are so f... good that are fuel efficient even after 20+ years

[ecogabriel]

I am looking at the 89 manual and there are slight differences with what you see in 86-87 black box. For instance, the solenoid valve in the manual looks like those used in the A/C idle booster; the one in 86-87 box is different and in one end is connected to hose #17 that goes to the air pipe between the filter box and the throttle body. Other than that, the systems look like the same.

Other than that, looking at the diagram the system works when the ECU grounds the solenoid. 12v should be present in one of the solenoid electrical connectors with engine running.

[Dr_Snooz]

Don't give up on an otherwise working car; problems with emissions systems are common and solvable. Besides, our cars are so f... good that are fuel efficient even after 20+ years

Especially when your vacuum is so good. That car's a keeper.

[watch4it]

Just in case Watch4it, did you check the fuses? Does the digital clock work before this happened?
One day I was doing some checkup when the engine died. It would crank, but it would not start. No PGM_FI light, no blinking ECU codes under the seat... .
After a few minutes I started fiddling with the fuses under the dash. One of them was labeled either ECU or EFI (can't remember now) but it was blown; I replaced it, and the car sprang back to life (and the clock too). The clock (and the dashboard light) should have sprang something on my mind but somehow it did not.
If you jump wires and the car runs, I would look for blown fuses.
The 89 black box probably has more wires than the 87 because some other stuff is in there that the 86-87 did not have; vapor canister solenoid (another emissions device), and second intake runner solenoid are two of the things that 88-89 had that 86-87 did not (or had a different implementation). Still, the 89 service manual should be useful for EGR troubleshooting
HOpe it helps
all the stuff in the car was functional:slap: and I thank you for that slap!! found 15 amp fuze blown after checkin, now back to PGM_FI light problem.:chainsaw:

[watch4it]

Vacuum only reaches the EGR valve when the solenoid closes; otherwise #16 is at atmosphere pressure through #17 hose. #17 attaches between the air filter and throttle body.
One thing I did when testing my code 12 was plug #17 at idle; idle would become rough and eventually the engine would stop as the EGR valve actuate.
#17 is connected to the EGR solenoid (a cylinder-shaped metallic thing with two hose connectors -one on each end); and the other end of the solenoid goes... to a plastic cylinder inside the box if I remember right. When the EGR solenoid closes, then the vacuum produced by the flying-saucer thing would actuate the EGR valve through that plastic cylinder.

If he has vacuum inside the box, then the next step would be whether the disk-shaped thing (can't recall the f... name) inside the box provides steady vacuum (6-8 in HG) for accurate EGR operation.

Oh, and I used the 1989 manual for the testing; the EGR system is identical. Remember, though that there are other things inside the black box and those may differ from 86-87 to 88-89.

Please check with the manual as I'm writing from memory (I have not opened the black box in quite a while) Hope this helps.

I may go to the jy tomorrow morning so I might go hunting for a working EGR if you eventually need one. They run cheap if one knows how to find a working one... let me know.
I also have the flying-saucer thingy, the plastic cylinder and probably the EGR solenoid valve too. I took them from another 3G just in case and I remember they worked -swapped back and forth with mine. I have no use for any of those; I only have to find them.

That reminds me that I should have posted how to diagnose the EGR valve itself...:banghead: and on mine when I pinched off #17 it did not make any diff in the way the engine set there running. The manual said to do it the second time so I did and it still had no effect!:D
I have steady vacuum to the CVC valve from hose #24 and it comes out the little elbow hose on cvc valve. Hmm thats funny it dosent register on the other conections on the air chamber??? which is hooked into the EGR control Valve.

[watch4it]

ecogabriel: Did It sound right the way I tested my EGR Valve?
Hose #16 comes out of the air chamber as One of the connections and one goes to the EGR control solenoid.
I have 20+ in hg to the elbow hose on the CVC Valve and that hose connects to the Air Chamber with 2 outlets, 1. hose #16 to EGR valve
2. goes to the Purge cut-off solenoid valve. I get no vacuum readings out of those 2 outlets on the air chamber using a vacuum gage. I can suck on the inlet that comes from the CVC to the chamber and see that it makes vacuum on the hose outlet for #16 and the one to the purge cut off solenoid. By holding my finger tips on the outlets lifting them off and on.
Is there a test for the CVC valve?? I checked this one against my old one and they checked different but I don't remember, I would have to test them again. But the reason I changed it was because of the difference and that was the step in the diagnosis I was at so I thought my old one was bad. But it changed nothing.

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

[watch4it]

I have retraced through my posts and edited them as to what I remember were the effects at each stage. Maybe there is a clue in there for someone cause I shure ain't swimmin very well. My stepfather and I used to go bass fishing together. And after yrs of doing this I found out he couldn't swim. I asked him "what would you do if the boat sank", He said "Oh I'd sink to the bottom and just walk over to the shore.":D
Thanks again for puttin up with me I will be sunk if I cant get this to go guess i will have to learn to walk again:( although I think I'll avoid the water)
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Ummm... you gave me a bit to read... hang on a sec so I can finish reading...

[ecogabriel]

ecogabriel: Did It sound right the way I tested my EGR Valve?
Hose #16 comes out of the air chamber as One of the connections and one goes to the EGR control solenoid.
I have 20+ in hg to the elbow hose on the CVC Valve and that hose connects to the Air Chamber with 2 outlets, 1. hose #16 to EGR valve
2. goes to the Purge cut-off solenoid valve. I get no vacuum readings out of those 2 outlets on the air chamber using a vacuum gage. I can suck on the inlet that comes from the CVC to the chamber and see that it makes vacuum on the hose outlet for #16 and the one to the purge cut off solenoid. By holding my finger tips on the outlets lifting them off and on.
Is there a test for the CVC valve?? I checked this one against my old one and they checked different but I don't remember, I would have to test them again. But the reason I changed it was because of the difference and that was the step in the diagnosis I was at so I thought my old one was bad. But it changed nothing.

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

You measured vacuum at the outlet of CVC valve and read 8inHG, right? If yes, that sounds right.
Going to the canister that attaches to it, one hose comes from the CVC, another one goes to the EGR valve itself (#16), and the third one should go to the solenoid valve (metallic) that in turn communicates through hose #17 with the air pipe that goes from the air filter to the throttle body.
(I am working this from memory here, the 1898 USDM manual has similar components but the implementation is slightly different)
The way this works is like this: with the EGR solenoid open, there is no vacuum in the canister because air is being sucked up through #17. When the solenoid closes, there is vacuum in the canister and it reaches (via #16) the EGR valve, opening it.
Plugging #17 with engine running (and all the hoses connected in their places) should then work "as if" the EGR solenoid is closed and thus opening EGR valve which should affect engine idle speed if not stopping it.

How to check CVC valve? What I did was keep engine running and attach a vacuum gauge to it; you should read about 6-8 inHG.
If you have a piece of vacuum hose, I would do another "test": from the CVC outlet I would run that spare hose straight to the EGR valve. if the engine stalls or runs rough then your CVC works. Perhaps it is the plastic canister that has something funny with it.

[ecogabriel]

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

So the engine is at operating temperature and the cold advance solenoid is clicking???? Ummm... I heard mine clicking with engine cold, but not once it is warmed up. Did the fans come on? (that is the check that engine is at operating temperature). There may be something else going on, but let's keep this simple for now and focus on the EGR system only

[watch4it]

You measured vacuum at the outlet of CVC valve and read 8inHG, right? If yes, that sounds right.
Going to the canister that attaches to it, one hose comes from the CVC, another one goes to the EGR valve itself (#16), and the third one should go to the solenoid valve (metallic) that in turn communicates through hose #17 with the air pipe that goes from the air filter to the throttle body.
(I am working this from memory here, the 1898 USDM manual has similar components but the implementation is slightly different)
The way this works is like this: with the EGR solenoid open, there is no vacuum in the canister because air is being sucked up through #17. When the solenoid closes, there is vacuum in the canister and it reaches (via #16) the EGR valve, opening it.
Plugging #17 with engine running (and all the hoses connected in their places) should then work "as if" the EGR solenoid is closed and thus opening EGR valve which should affect engine idle speed if not stopping it.

How to check CVC valve? What I did was keep engine running and attach a vacuum gauge to it; you should read about 6-8 inHG.
If you have a piece of vacuum hose, I would do another "test" the following: from the CVC outlet I would run that hose straight to the EGR valve. if the engine stalls or runs rough then your CVC works. Perhaps it is the plastic canister that has something funny with it.

Let me continue reading and see what else is there

iYes i have 8-9 in hg at CVC valve and my hoses are connected like you stated. The air chamber kinda seem plugged up, I mean air didnt pass through it real easy or alot but it did pass through it. None of the other valves seem to activate. the only one is the ignition control solenoid when you rev the engine.

[ecogabriel]

and on mine when I pinched off #17 it did not make any diff in the way the engine set there running. The manual said to do it the second time so I did and it still had no effect!:D
I have steady vacuum to the CVC valve from hose #24 and it comes out the little elbow hose on cvc valve. Hmm thats funny it dosent register on the other conections on the air chamber??? which is hooked into the EGR control Valve.

from #24 you should see basically intake vacuum (about 20inHG... you said 22 right?)
If the CVC provides steady vacuum (6-8 inHG) then the CVC is OK.
With all the connections in the canister if you remove the one that goes to the EGR solenoid and attach a vacuum you should see vacuum there and (and the EGR valve working and probably killing the engine). To see vacuum where #16 attaches, you need first to plug the other canister connector (the one going to the solenoid) or plugging #17

Do you have a spare canister to swap? And just in case, if you have kept the other black box untouched at this point make sure that the hose connections are done the same way.

[ecogabriel]

Yes i have 8-9 in hg at CVC valve and my hoses are connected like you stated. The air chamber kinda seem plugged up, I mean air didnt pass through it real easy or alot but it did pass through it. None of the other valves seem to activate. the only one is the ignition control solenoid when you rev the engine.

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.

[watch4it]

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.
If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets. Even by reving the engine and having the Ignition control Solenoid click if you watch the vacuum gage it does not change from 0 vac. This is the picture Iam getting my termanology from for the Selonoids.http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201987%20Honda%20Accord%20%20L X/HondaComponentPic.jpg

[watch4it]

from #24 you should see basically intake vacuum (about 20inHG... you said 22 right?)
If the CVC provides steady vacuum (6-8 inHG) then the CVC is OK.
With all the connections in the canister if you remove the one that goes to the EGR solenoid and attach a vacuum you should see vacuum there and (and the EGR valve working and probably killing the engine). To see vacuum where #16 attaches, you need first to plug the other canister connector (the one going to the solenoid) or plugging #17

Do you have a spare canister to swap? And just in case, if you have kept the other black box untouched at this point make sure that the hose connections are done the same way.

The other blk box dosn't have the same kind of canister in it. Mine has 3 hookups and the one in my JY box has 2. My hose #17 is hooked up to the air tube before the throttle bodie and has been for as much as i know. The hose going to the
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/PI5Send1-2.jpg solenoid in the far right corner(its a cast alum lookin thing) and hose #17 goes to the top of it. Where the EGR Control solenoid is a brass colored steel lookin solenoid Which has 2 larger hoses hooked to the bottom of it. Hope ya can tell from the pic. I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

[watch4it]

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.

So as the test shows the canister is open and workin.Post #103

[watch4it]

So the engine is at operating temperature and the cold advance solenoid is clicking???? Ummm... I heard mine clicking with engine cold, but not once it is warmed up. Did the fans come on? (that is the check that engine is at operating temperature). There may be something else going on, but let's keep this simple for now and focus on the EGR system only

I checked my temp with my cooling system analyzer and the cooling fan came on at 170 deg.
Which at one time I did change the cts (coolant temp sensor) with a Kragen aftermarket. It still off and on(not always) shows cold then will make the connection and show the running temp. I always thought it was just the plug connection and I never bothered to fix it.

[ecogabriel]

I see the EGR solenoid at the lower right of the photo (aluminum color). Hose #17 is attached at the top of it (the photo is the bottom side of the box right?) And one of the canister connectors is connected with the EGR solenoid; the other hose that comes out of the air chamber at a 90 degree angle from the previous one is #16 -the one that goes to the EGR valve.
The box looks the same as mine (86); 88-89 are slightly different as they have a different solenoid valve and that is why the air chamber (canister) is different too.

let's see your checks.
If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets.
I should have told you to plug #17, but... let's see the other test
I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

The fact that it wanted to kill the engine signals that EGR valve works. It also shows that the canister works (and the CVC too).... I am unsure why you read 20 inHG; since you are measuring vacuum after the CVC you should have seen about the same vacuum at the CVC outlet.
Restablish the hose connections as in the photo you posted and start the engine. DETACH ANY WIRING GOING TO THE SOLENOID; once the solenoid valve is electrically isolated from the car's wiring apply battery voltage to it; positive to one contact, negative to the other
If it works, you should see the engine idling rough or being killed.
That would show that the EGR system in the box (and the valve itself) is working, and that the problem may be the ECU not being able to "communicate" with the box (maybe wiring issue)

If, after powering the EGR solenoid the engine runs as if nothing happens; then the EGR solenoid may be defective.
If that is the case, I think it is possible to make the other solenoid and air box combination work in yours

to recap, I am trying to "operate" the EGR system by directly working on the EGR solenoid.

Again, DETACH ANY WIRE GOING TO THE EGR SOLENOID BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO TEST OPERATION OF EGR SOLENOID in the way I suggested; the last thing I want is a fried ECU (or whatever else for that matter)

I hope I was clear enough; if you have a question please ask...

[Dr_Snooz]

Sorry, you lost me. When you powered the box, you got 8" at the #16 vacuum line?

[watch4it]

I see the EGR solenoid at the lower right of the photo (aluminum color). Hose #17 is attached at the top of it (the photo is the bottom side of the box right?) And one of the canister connectors is connected with the EGR solenoid; the other hose that comes out of the air chamber at a 90 degree angle from the previous one is #16 -the one that goes to the EGR valve.
The box looks the same as mine (86); 88-89 are slightly different as they have a different solenoid valve and that is why the air chamber (canister) is different too.

let's see your checks.
If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets.
I should have told you to plug #17, but... let's see the other test
I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

The fact that it wanted to kill the engine signals that EGR valve works. It also shows that the canister works (and the CVC too).... I am unsure why you read 20 inHG; since you are measuring vacuum after the CVC you should have seen about the same vacuum at the CVC outlet.(I do)
Restablish the hose connections as in the photo you posted and start the engine. DETACH ANY WIRING GOING TO THE SOLENOID; once the solenoid valve is electrically isolated from the car's wiring apply battery voltage to it; positive to one contact, negative to the other
If it works, you should see the engine idling rough or being killed.
That would show that the EGR system in the box (and the valve itself) is working, and that the problem may be the ECU not being able to "communicate" with the box (maybe wiring issue)

If, after powering the EGR solenoid the engine runs as if nothing happens; then the EGR solenoid may be defective.
If that is the case, I think it is possible to make the other solenoid and air box combination work in yours

to recap, I am trying to "operate" the EGR system by directly working on the EGR solenoid.

Again, DETACH ANY WIRE GOING TO THE EGR SOLENOID BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO TEST OPERATION OF EGR SOLENOID in the way I suggested; the last thing I want is a fried ECU (or whatever else for that matter)

I hope I was clear enough; if you have a question please ask...

no I understand. I blew some low preshure air through the canister and then measured the vacuum the second time and it showed vacuum. could I rinse it out with some choke and carb cleaner? Or I have to go tomorrow and try and find the RIGHT blk box for this car. Appaently the one I bought is different.
I wish I had a picture (the right one) for this box. the one I put on photobucket from page 12-6 dosen't match up with the right locations for solenoids and also it dosen't show 2 barrel like valves,only the one and they call it the egr control valve.(in that picture) but you say the other one is it.
So you want to just disconect the egr solenoid or all of the solenoids? I think ya mean just the egr solenoid.
Thanks again
watch4it
PS:my honda dealers around here said None of the parts in that blk box are available anymore.
So the blk/yel and the red are wired or jumpered Pos to blk/yel and the red to neg on batt? yes thats the way I hooked them up BUT I found out the EGR Control valve is not the one I thought it was! You are right it is the one on the right of the picture and none of the wires as per the manual are in what we have been calling the 2P connection. That solenoid has a blk/yel and red wire to it and it is one of the little plugs on the outside of the blk/box on the front. The one on the left goes to the map sensor and the one on the right is the EGR control Solenoid Valve plug. I seperated it and used just the wires going to it with the 2P Plug put back together and by jumping those wires to the battery I do get a stutter engine die test. Thanks we are makin progress. Yee Haww nice job to you all. and to me 2.
watch4it

[watch4it]

Sorry, you lost me. When you powered the box, you got 8" at the #16 vacuum line?

(No) vacuum at the #16 hose. thats with the blk/yel and red wires jumpered to the batt. Or with the 2P connector plugged back together.
But with the #16 hose connected to the egr and the other end goes to one of the outlets on the canister then one on each end of the canister one goes to the elbow hose on the CVC valve and the other end goes to the EGR controll solenoid valve. If i disconnect that hose and plug it with my finger the engine starts to stutter and die. if I put the vacuum gage on that hose it shows agout 20"hg vacume which comes through the canister and the CVC valve, and that makes the engine stutter and act like it will die too.

Now that I found the right wires do you want me to run this test again. See post #108
Thnks:watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

If you disconnect the hose between the CVC and the air chamber and measure vacuum at the air chamber, what does it read?

[watch4it]

If you disconnect the hose between the CVC and the air chamber and measure vacuum at the air chamber, what does it read?

There are two hoses to the cvc the elbow hose is the supply to the air chamber but the supply to the cvc is the center hose #24 from the plenum chamber. When I disconect the elbow hose from the air chamber I get about 20"hg. and then it shows about the same going through the air chamber to the EGR Control solenoid. but shows no vacuum to the #16 hose coming off the air chamber which goes to the EGR valve on the engine. If I pull the hose off the EGR Control valve and plug it then it puts vacuum to the #16 hose and makes the engine stutter and die.
Watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?

[watch4it]

Well, Well,Well.Today is a good day. First off I want to thank you all for your time and thoughts on my problem, and believe me it was my problem.
Thanks Dr Snooze, ecogabriel, Oldblueaccord, LX-Incredible, and any others that took time out of your time to aid in this with pics, comments etc.
I have had experiances on other sites that you might pay alot of money and still not get the answer you needed. This in posts alone was probably worth alot of money. THANK YOU all.
I just went on a 40 mile test drive and I got no light! NO PGM-FI light! I drove the poop out of her just to get it all cleaned out. 292000+ miles and this car I garuntee you will peg the speedo. No paint, interior is Kinda clean, but she is my car and I have never been happier.
Now for the next step, the ole smog mieser. Yikes:bow:
Thank You again. Ill give ya all One guess as to what the problem was. He He!:idea: there is a hint in all the posts. I'll tell ya soon.
Good Day to you all and remember.
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
supplemental.:bow:
Thanks to you all!!

[watch4it]

We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?

Thanks Doc It is workin fine. Thanks for hangin in there by the number of posts you have I can see you have done this for alot of other people also.
Thanks again:
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

The freaking black box design changed mid-series; 86-87s have a different setup than 88-89. What the manual has in terms of testing is OK but since the wiring is done differently, it is a PITA to follow the first time one faces the system. For instance, I remember the 2-wire connector to the right of the 3-wire connector (MAP sensor) but I did not recall its exact function (EGR solenoid) which you discovered by following the wires. I did remember the shape of the EGR solenoid when you posted the photo (good photo, by the way)

[ecogabriel]

WATCH:
I was writing the previous post and I did not realize that you have already solved the problem

GOODDDD!!!

Another 3G saved!!!

[watch4it]

WATCH:
I was writing the previous post and I did not realize that you have already solved the problem

GOODDDD!!!

Another 3G saved!!!
It wasn't me It was you people going through all the hard research and helping me test. I say THANK YOU AGAIN.

The problem seemed to be the CTS (thats what i always called them) I made note that I had changed it over a year ago and that was when the PGM-FI light had started to come on. After changing the coolant temp sensor the light still came on so I didn't think they were related. Well Well Well turns out that it struck me like a slap from the doctor that I had busted the little rubber like boot that covered the protruding end connection on the CTS and the connector was rounded out (loose) from all the effort that it took to get it off! Think about it! A bad connection to the coolant temp sensor lets the ECU get a (change your mind) am I hot or am I cold signal!:hmph: Thats why my temp gauge would sometimes register and sometimes not, and that was the reason I changed the temp sensor in the first place. So it was a repair that wasn't done right by this front yard mech that caused the afore mentioned problem refered to as My problem. haha
I thank you all for your support I hope I have this done but time is always the truth teller. I will always check in to 3gees and see whats up but everyone can rest for a min from me the pestery kid on the block.
Good job by all and to all a good night. Rest well and THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!:bow:
watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Odd that the temp sensor would throw an EGR code. Nice sleuthing there. Keep her running for a long time now.

[ecogabriel]

Odd that the temp sensor would throw an EGR code. Nice sleuthing there. Keep her running for a long time now.

I was thinking how a temperature sensor that sends information to the dashboard gauge may affect ECU operation, considering that the ECU uses another sensor to know engine temperature.

Anyway, keep the car running running and enjoying it!

[watch4it]

I was thinking how a temperature sensor that sends information to the dashboard gauge may affect ECU operation, considering that the ECU uses another sensor to know engine temperature.

Anyway, keep the car running running and enjoying it!

What sensor is that? And it is funny to me because I had a hecka time finding the coolant temp sensor when I was doing that job. There are two more in my water neck that hook to the block. I dont remember the names but I remember reading a diffinition some where (Ive been thinking about this one, something I noted was in the schematic one of the signal wires for the egr position (lift) sensor feeds thru the temp sensor.
The green/yellow wire comes out of the ecu thru the temp sensor then it turns green/white out of the temp sensor to the egr lift sensor. That same green white wire also goes to the intake air temp sensor.
The yellow wire out of the egr lift sens. goes back to the ecu, I think that is the output signal from the egr lift.) in parenthisis is the researched Item. I kept a word pad document with all the info I researched so I could try and work through the problem. But then I found this miracle site and you all started to help, But I still have my info saved.
Maybe it is one of those made in Japan cars and then a mid production run which makes it part Honda and Part Accorn. hehe I always end up with something like that. My whole life has been that way kinda backwards. But I was a breached birth babie anyhow, so the record is just holding true.
Thanks again: My deepest respect to you all.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

What sensor is that? And it is funny to me because I had a hecka time finding the coolant temp sensor when I was doing that job. There are two more in my water neck that hook to the block. I dont remember the names but I remember reading a diffinition some where (Ive been thinking about this one, something I noted was in the schematic one of the signal wires for the egr position (lift) sensor feeds thru the temp sensor.
The green/yellow wire comes out of the ecu thru the temp sensor then it turns green/white out of the temp sensor to the egr lift sensor. That same green white wire also goes to the intake air temp sensor.
The yellow wire out of the egr lift sens. goes back to the ecu, I think that is the output signal from the egr lift.) in parenthisis is the researched Item. I kept a word pad document with all the info I researched so I could try and work through the problem. But then I found this miracle site and you all started to help, But I still have my info saved.
Maybe it is one of those made in Japan cars and then a mid production run which makes it part Honda and Part Accorn. hehe I always end up with something like that. My whole life has been that way kinda backwards. But I was a breached birth babie anyhow, so the record is just holding true.
Thanks again: My deepest respect to you all.
watch4it

The sensor you replaced screws in the back side of that neck yo mentioned. The two sensors that screw at the top of it? one is a radiator fan switch that will act when engine gets extremely hot when stopped; the other one is the one that the ECU uses to see how hot or cold the engine is...
By the way, my LX-i is also a japanese one. Regardless of manufacturing place, they all have to conform to the standards of the place in which they are sold (in our case the U.S.)

When you mentioned the cold solenoid working with engine hot I though that maybe the sensor that tells engine temperature to the ECU (screwed at the top of the water pipe) was not working OK.
In any event, you should just get it sniffed for emissions and tell us how it went.

[watch4it]

The sensor you replaced screws in the back side of that neck yo mentioned. The two sensors that screw at the top of it? one is a radiator fan switch that will act when engine gets extremely hot when stopped; the other one is the one that the ECU uses to see how hot or cold the engine is...
By the way, my LX-i is also a japanese one. Regardless of manufacturing place, they all have to conform to the standards of the place in which they are sold (in our case the U.S.)

When you mentioned the cold solenoid working with engine hot I though that maybe the sensor that tells engine temperature to the ECU (screwed at the top of the water pipe) was not working OK.
In any event, you should just get it sniffed for emissions and tell us how it went.
Thank You I will.:help:

[watch4it]

well I did get rid of the PGM-FI light as coming on but it failed smog:slap:
I think I need the test for the EGR valve? The smog Tech said he thought it was that the car needed a new Catalitic Converter. So I replaced it with a Thrush cat, it was the only thing available,$173.00 :rant:
I remember this experiance from before on a smog for my olds replaced the cat and it made no diff.
I think the CTS was the prob (loose connection) for the PGM-FI light, on the Honda.
But I have a funny feeling it is really the EGR valve for the no pass Smog. I checked each of the wires using the center wire as neutral and I did get readings off of each outside wire as I applied vacumm. Does that mean it passes the test? Remember that I did take the switch off of the top and clean the pintal shaft. Before I did that I had no referance voltage on the test. EGR valve was $203.00 So I decided to look into the old one to MAKE shure it was broke before I replaced it, Thought I could fix anything attitude.:D Iam truly getting Humbled by this little car.
Could I get an update for my problem and get the way to test the EGR valve?
Much appreciated.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

well I did get rid of the PGM-FI light as coming on but it failed smog:slap:
I think I need the test for the EGR valve? The smog Tech said he thought it was that the car needed a new Catalitic Converter. So I replaced it with a Thrush cat, it was the only thing available,$173.00 :rant:
I remember this experiance from before on a smog for my olds replaced the cat and it made no diff.
I think the CTS was the prob (loose connection) for the PGM-FI light, on the Honda.
But I have a funny feeling it is really the EGR valve for the no pass Smog. I checked each of the wires using the center wire as neutral and I did get readings off of each outside wire as I applied vacumm. Does that mean it passes the test? Remember that I did take the switch off of the top and clean the pintal shaft. Before I did that I had no referance voltage on the test. EGR valve was $203.00 So I decided to look into the old one to MAKE shure it was broke before I replaced it, Thought I could fix anything attitude.:D Iam truly getting Humbled by this little car.
Could I get an update for my problem and get the way to test the EGR valve?
Much appreciated.
watch4it

My failed EGR valve had no continuity in one of its sides; several others I picked in the jy had the same issue but the one in the car now reads on both sides. No code 12 (EGR) and pass emissions like a champ; I have to test this year.

Post emission results. if NOx is high then EGR system (or cat) may be culprits. If no code 12, your EGR system is working. It might be the case that the individual passages to the cylinders are partially clogged; Snooz knows about it (I have just read about it)
Other failures (HC or CO) may or may not be due to the cat.

To replace the cat, one has to be sure that there are no other problems that may make a car fail emissions. My 3G failed the first time (NOx very high) but with a replaced EGR valve passed without a hiccup.
My 5G civic also failed once for NOx but it does not have any EGR system; the guy looked at the test results and CO and HC were within passing range, took a look at the cat (OE, 180K) and said that the problem would be there. Sure enough, mine was nicely melted inside... new cat, no more problems

Bottom line: before replacing cat, post test results and we may say something else

[watch4it]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201987%20Honda%20Accord%20%20L X/img002.jpg
Here is the first smog test. He ran two more today after I replaced the cat like he sugested. Failed both of them. One failed on the low end test and the other one failed on the high end test. I'll get the numbers tomorrow and stickem in the photobucket.
Thanks: watch4it:nuts:

[Dr_Snooz]

I was pretty sure we hadn't heard the last of this thread. Failing on NOx is almost always EGR. To pick up where we left off then:

"We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?"

Be sure the engine is at temp when you do this.

[ecogabriel]

Here goes my emissions report from '09 for the Accord
Cat and EGR both working

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1645/emissins.jpg

A few observations:
When this car failed emissions, NOx was out of whack in both tests but both HC and CO were fine -actually lower than yours. Working EGR valve fixed the code 12 and the emissions problem
My 5G Civic also failed emissions for high NOx; unlike the accord, my civic does not have an EGR system. All the NOx reduction was done by the cat. Both my HC and CO numbers were within norm but more like yours. With those numbers in hand, the guy suggested replacing the cat; I had come to kind of the same conclusion after reading several threads on the internet. My cat in the civic was fried; no problems after it.

My suspicion? I would like to see the new numbers with a new cat.
Still, I may ask if the code 12 has returned.

[ecogabriel]

I was pretty sure we hadn't heard the last of this thread. Failing on NOx is almost always EGR. To pick up where we left off then:

"We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?"

Be sure the engine is at temp when you do this.

I would not have replaced the cat yet, but I would like to see the new numbers. I would have first replaced the O2 sensor; far cheaper to replace and a tune-up item anyway.
If you look at his HC and CO numbers they are within normal range but still higher than (I assume from the posted report) other similar cars. I posted my emission test results from '09 for that reason. Working cat, working EGR, and fresh O2 sensor (universal-type) for this last test.

If there is a functional problem with the EGR system the ECU will pick it right up; ECU has predetermined settings for EGR operation and if what it senses from the EGR valve sensor is not what it expected it will flag a code right away.
The only problem ECU would not pick up is clogged EGR runners; and I read that this was a problem for both 3G and 4G Accords.
If I recall correctly, you have had this problem.

I am trying to find the old threads I read about this... found it
http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=106701

Sorry for editing again; I found another article that if not that good as others I have read it has something at the end on how NOT TO diagnose emissions problems, A.K.A. slap a new converter; read under C02

http://www.salemboysauto.com/original-faqs/faq-20.htm

[watch4it]

Here goes my emissions report from '09 for the Accord
Cat and EGR both working

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1645/emissins.jpg

A few observations:
When this car failed emissions, NOx was out of whack in both tests but both HC and CO were fine -actually lower than yours. Working EGR valve fixed the code 12 and the emissions problem
My 5G Civic also failed emissions for high NOx; unlike the accord, my civic does not have an EGR system. All the NOx reduction was done by the cat. Both my HC and CO numbers were within norm but more like yours. With those numbers in hand, the guy suggested replacing the cat; I had come to kind of the same conclusion after reading several threads on the internet. My cat in the civic was fried; no problems after it.

My suspicion? I would like to see the new numbers with a new cat.
Still, I may ask if the code 12 has returned.
No the code 12 did not return to the ecm light. It is off(the light) it dosen't blink or glow or nothing. It is off.
Thank you: watch4it

[watch4it]

No the code 12 did not return to the ecm light. It is off(the light) it dosen't blink or glow or nothing. It is off.
Thank you: watch4itHere are the other 2 times he ran the test. failed on the low run and passed on the high then switched itself for the next one.Times are at the top of the ticket.
watch4it
ps. $20.00 test fee in GA!!! Wow and calif is going broke. We must have more leaches out here! Mine was $69.00


http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201987%20Honda%20Accord%20%20L X/img005.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201987%20Honda%20Accord%20%20L X/img004.jpg

[watch4it]

I would not have replaced the cat yet, but I would like to see the new numbers. I would have first replaced the O2 sensor; far cheaper to replace and a tune-up item anyway.
If you look at his HC and CO numbers they are within normal range but still higher than (I assume from the posted report) other similar cars. I posted my emission test results from '09 for that reason. Working cat, working EGR, and fresh O2 sensor (universal-type) for this last test.

If there is a functional problem with the EGR system the ECU will pick it right up; ECU has predetermined settings for EGR operation and if what it senses from the EGR valve sensor is not what it expected it will flag a code right away.
The only problem ECU would not pick up is clogged EGR runners; and I read that this was a problem for both 3G and 4G Accords.
If I recall correctly, you have had this problem.

I am trying to find the old threads I read about this... found it
http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=106701

Sorry for editing again; I found another article that if not that good as others I have read it has something at the end on how NOT TO diagnose emissions problems, A.K.A. slap a new converter; read under C02

http://www.salemboysauto.com/original-faqs/faq-20.htm
Awsome articles my shop manual will appreciate the printed out SUPPLEMENTS.
watch4it

[watch4it]

I was pretty sure we hadn't heard the last of this thread. Failing on NOx is almost always EGR. To pick up where we left off then:

"We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?"

Be sure the engine is at temp when you do this.

With engine at op temp cooling fans cycled twice.
Ok Dr I am a little confused but if I follow your request there is zero vacuum at the canister.
The reason for my confusion is that hose #24 supplies the vacuum to the CVC, It comes from the plenum on the injection. If you unhook the elbow hose from the CVC to the canister there is no vacuum supplied to the canister. The Hose #24 goes into the center of the CVC and the elbow hose(no # on it) comes out of the outside edge and goes to the Canister. Hose #16 is attached to the other end of the canister as well as one more hose(no#) which goes to the solenoid valve in the corner of the blk box. The picture on page 12-6 isn't a correct representation of my blk box. But it is the solenoid valve that looks like it is cast aluminum, it has hose #17 into the top of it and the no # hose from the canister going into the bottom of it with a blk/yel & a red wire to it for the electrical connection. Which comes from the outside plug on the front of the blk box not from what we have been calling the 2P connection on the right side of the box. If Pic helps.
watch4it
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/PI5Send1-2.jpg (http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/?action=view&current=PI5Send1-2.jpg)http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0003_edited.jpg

[ecogabriel]

The photo may not be an accurate representation, but if your canister has three hose connectors then the image applies; actually it looks a lot like mine.
When testing the way Dr. suggested from the manual (manual for a 89) you are not going to see any vacuum in the canister; since #17 is opened to the atmosphere and communicates with the canister, vacuum WILL NOT form in the canister.
The only way you are going to see vacuum there is attaching the vacuum gauge to where hose #17 is connected. Alternatively, connect the vacuum gauge using a tee connector between the canister and the solenoid, and apply power to the solenoid.

Correct me if I am wrong; I see two hose connnectors coming at 90 degrees at the base of the canister. One hose goes to the solenoid, and from it via #17 to the atmosphere (air filter tube); the other hose is #16 and goes to the EGR valve.
When you close access to atmosphere (energize solenoid or plug #17), vaccum forms in the canister and operates the EGR valve. This is the missing part in the 89 manual; those two 90-degree connectors are incorporated into the EGR solenoid that is different from the one you have; the one you have is like the one in the picture right? (one hose at the top, another at the bottom)

The 89 (and probably 88) accords have a two-hose canister. I saw the diagram in Snooz's book.
I can find a way to adapt that implementation of EGR control into an 86-87 accord if necessary -it'll make #17 hose unnecessary- but it distracts us here.
I think the box you bought has that kind of canister right?

[watch4it]

The photo may not be an accurate representation, but if your canister has three hose connectors then the image applies; actually it looks a lot like mine.
When testing the way Dr. suggested from the manual (manual for a 89) you are not going to see any vacuum in the canister; since #17 is opened to the atmosphere and communicates with the canister, vacuum WILL NOT form in the canister.
The only way you are going to see vacuum there is attaching the vacuum gauge to where hose #17 is connected. Alternatively, connect the vacuum gauge using a tee connector between the canister and the solenoid, and apply power to the solenoid.

Correct me if I am wrong; I see two hose connnectors coming at 90 degrees at the base of the canister. One hose goes to the solenoid, and from it via #17 to the atmosphere (air filter tube); the other hose is #16 and goes to the EGR valve.
When you close access to atmosphere (energize solenoid or plug #17), vaccum forms in the canister and operates the EGR valve. This is the missing part in the 89 manual; those two 90-degree connectors are incorporated into the EGR solenoid that is different from the one you have; the one you have is like the one in the picture right? (one hose at the top, another at the bottom)

The 89 (and probably 88) accords have a two-hose canister. I saw the diagram in Snooz's book.
I can find a way to adapt that implementation of EGR control into an 86-87 accord if necessary -it'll make #17 hose unnecessary- but it distracts us here.
I think the box you bought has that kind of canister right?
The jy box I bought just had an inlet hose and an outlet hose on the canister. Straight through. Mine has one inlet hose from the CVC valve and 2 outlets on the other end, One at a ninety and one straight out the end. I think it was you or somewhere I kind a remember it said to pinch off hose #17. I didnt do that in the Dr's Test ( since you brought up Hose #17) That might have given me vacuum?
watch4it
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0001_edited-1.jpg

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm reading that your current air chamber (from the junkyard box) has only two vacuum connections, but your old one had three. Am I reading that right?

[watch4it]

I'm reading that your current air chamber (from the junkyard box) has only two vacuum connections, but your old one had three. Am I reading that right?

Yes the picture on photobucket is of my old canister the JY one only had to outlets. one on each end
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

I'm reading that your current air chamber (from the junkyard box) has only two vacuum connections, but your old one had three. Am I reading that right?

His canister or air chamber looks like the one in the photo he posted -one hose to the vacuum modulator (green round thing) and two more hose connectors at the other end. Mine looks exactly the same.
Honda changed things on the EGR system mid-series; 86-87 are different from 88-89. They are not mind-boggling but you need to keep in mind the difference in order to use the testing as in the 89 manual. Try to read what I posted then compared to the diagram in the 89 and you'll get how it works.

[ecogabriel]

I am trying to retrace all this... and put some things together

You mentioned hearing a clicking sound when you accelerated coming from the box which was probably from the cold air advance solenoid. Do you still hear it when the engine is hot??? Because that should not be working with the engine hot; the ECU commands that solenoid

You also mentioned that if you applied vacuum to the EGR valve with engine running, idle would become rough. That would discard an earlier idea I had (clogged individual EGR runners)

EGR system only works on certain engine conditions; it does not work with engine cold for example. ECU knows the engine is hot via TW sensor.... if that sensor fails it should post a code (light PGM_FI and flash ECU under drivers' seat) although I also remember some guys talking about TW sensor problems and no codes...

http://www.auto-repair-help.com/automotive_maintenance/automotive_sensors.php

I am wondering if the problem is that ECU does not know engine is hot; so EGR system does not activate but cold advance solenoid remains active... I am assuming that ECU system is OK because there are no code 12...

[Dr_Snooz]

As a general rule, it will be very hard to pass smog if you're using the wrong parts...

[watch4it]

I am trying to retrace all this... and put some things together

You mentioned hearing a clicking sound when you accelerated coming from the box which was probably from the cold air advance solenoid. Do you still hear it when the engine is hot??? Because that should not be working with the engine hot; the ECU commands that solenoid

You also mentioned that if you applied vacuum to the EGR valve with engine running, idle would become rough. That would discard an earlier idea I had (clogged individual EGR runners)

EGR system only works on certain engine conditions; it does not work with engine cold for example. ECU knows the engine is hot via TW sensor.... if that sensor fails it should post a code (light PGM_FI and flash ECU under drivers' seat) although I also remember some guys talking about TW sensor problems and no codes...

http://www.auto-repair-help.com/automotive_maintenance/automotive_sensors.php

I am wondering if the problem is that ECU does not know engine is hot; so EGR system does not activate but cold advance solenoid remains active... I am assuming that ECU system is OK because there are no code 12...
I wish I had a picture of what to call the items in my blk box. My clicking seems to be coming from the switch next to the aluminum lookin solenoid on the right side of the Picture
Yes I do hear a click when I rapp the throttle after the engine is warmed up.
I have no codes flashing in the ECM.
Yes if I apply vacuum to EGR valve when engine is at op temp it stumbles and apply more it will die.(very little needed, never paid attention to the #'s or amount) It did the same for the smog tech plus he hooked up his vacuum gage to hose #16 and gave the car throttle while on the dyno and said it showed vacuum and then the vacuum would just fall off.
So apparently hose #16 recieved a momentary signal from something to allow vacuum to be applied to hose #16 and then it didn't hold it (if it was suppose to). The rpm stayed the same and then vacuum fell off.
I cleared the codes(disconnected Batt) on the ECU and none have ever come back (the lights do not flash anyhow one of my previous posts).

[watch4it]

His canister or air chamber looks like the one in the photo he posted -one hose to the vacuum modulator (green round thing) and two more hose connectors at the other end. Mine looks exactly the same.
Honda changed things on the EGR system mid-series; 86-87 are different from 88-89. They are not mind-boggling but you need to keep in mind the difference in order to use the testing as in the 89 manual. Try to read what I posted then compared to the diagram in the 89 and you'll get how it works.

Easy choice for me if the part dosen't look the same ya can't use it! The jy box was off a car with an automatic trans. Iam seeing now that that makes a diff. I never used the canister out of the jy box as a replacment part in my car. BUT i did use the CVC valve because mine didn't check the same as to when vacuum was applied to it with vacuum test as the one from the jy. I am not trying to make things worse by just changing a bunch of things around. I have been doing my own mech work all my life( that dosen't make me perfect but I do know SOME basics):) I have built engines rebuilt engines owned a autobody repair facility for 17 yrs and been around autos always.
I WILL TRY AND FOLLOW DIRECTIONS that is why iam here. I don't know techincal stuff. But I don't know how to spell ether. Will that make me fail.
Thanks for your patience::violin:Watch4it

[watch4it]

I was thinking about the momentary vacuum applied to the #16 hose at the smog shop.
As you stated the the clicking from the cold air solenoid, Maybe that was what showed the momentary vacuum to the hose as the smog tech applied throttle.
That is when i hear the click is when I rapp the throttle and then it will click again as the engine decelerates. Clicks evertime i do that. Engine at operating temp or cold?:huh:
I will run that check and reply with info. I think I checked it when the doc asked for his test and it didn't show any vacuum but I'll try it by rappin the throttle and hearing the click.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

I wish I had a picture of what to call the items in my blk box. My clicking seems to be coming from the switch next to the aluminum lookin solenoid on the right side of the Picture
Yes I do hear a click when I rapp the throttle after the engine is warmed up.
I have no codes flashing in the ECM.
Yes if I apply vacuum to EGR valve when engine is at op temp it stumbles and apply more it will die.(very little needed, never paid attention to the #'s or amount) It did the same for the smog tech plus he hooked up his vacuum gage to hose #16 and gave the car throttle while on the dyno and said it showed vacuum and then the vacuum would just fall off.
So apparently hose #16 recieved a momentary signal from something to allow vacuum to be applied to hose #16 and then it didn't hold it (if it was suppose to). The rpm stayed the same and then vacuum fell off.
I cleared the codes(disconnected Batt) on the ECU and none have ever come back (the lights do not flash anyhow one of my previous posts).

Little vacuum is needed to activate EGR valve; 5inHG are enough to fully open it. Would it be the EGR valve not holding vacuum because there may be a leak in the diaphragm? Apply vacuum to the EGR valve only, apply say 10inHG and look carefully at the gauge; it should hold the vacuum you applied. Try different vacuum depths within the operating range and see what happens... vacuum should not drop if the EGR valve diaphragm is not leaking

I do not expect EGR system working continuously; it works when NOx is most likely to form -acceleration under load- to lower combustion chamber temperatures using exhaust gas.

[ecogabriel]

Easy choice for me if the part dosen't look the same ya can't use it! The jy box was off a car with an automatic trans. Iam seeing now that that makes a diff. I never used the canister out of the jy box as a replacment part in my car. BUT i did use the CVC valve because mine didn't check the same as to when vacuum was applied to it with vacuum test as the one from the jy. I am not trying to make things worse by just changing a bunch of things around. I have been doing my own mech work all my life( that dosen't make me perfect but I do know SOME basics):) I have built engines rebuilt engines owned a autobody repair facility for 17 yrs and been around autos always.
I WILL TRY AND FOLLOW DIRECTIONS that is why iam here. I don't know techincal stuff. But I don't know how to spell ether. Will that make me fail.
Thanks for your patience::violin:Watch4it

CVC is OK to use no problem; the auto box should have another solenoid to keep idle speed when transmission is in D (mine has one) The difference in canisters is due to different model year.

[ecogabriel]

I was thinking about the momentary vacuum applied to the #16 hose at the smog shop.
As you stated the the clicking from the cold air solenoid, Maybe that was what showed the momentary vacuum to the hose as the smog tech applied throttle.
That is when i hear the click is when I rapp the throttle and then it will click again as the engine decelerates. Clicks evertime i do that. Engine at operating temp or cold?:huh:
I will run that check and reply with info. I think I checked it when the doc asked for his test and it didn't show any vacuum but I'll try it by rappin the throttle and hearing the click.
watch4it

If you see vacuum when you hear the click, what is clicking should be the EGR solenoid... cold advance is not related to EGR; one works with engine cold, the other when engine has warmed up.

check the EGR valve to see if it holds vacuum as I posted; after that I would suggest checking the hoses between the CVC and the egr valve and see if all of them adjust tightly...

[watch4it]

If you see vacuum when you hear the click, what is clicking should be the EGR solenoid... cold advance is not related to EGR; one works with engine cold, the other when engine has warmed up.

check the EGR valve to see if it holds vacuum as I posted; after that I would suggest checking the hoses between the CVC and the egr valve and see if all of them adjust tightly...

Don't know how he said hose#16 showed vacuum.
I check with engine cold and at op temp and reving engine my gauge showed no vacume change on hose #16.
I have checked all the hoses they were all on there so tight you had to use needle nose pliers to twist them on the stem they were mounted on to break the seal so you could pull them off. My whole engine compartment looks real stock there are no signs of things being changed or mickied.
That valve clicks when engine is at op temp (when you rap the throttle and when it decellerates it clicks again) I'll check EGR for Holding Vacuum. and that is the valve right in front of the aluminum looking solenoid not the one to the left of the selenoid. (see pic in post at 2:28 yesterday.BRB
watch4it
Checked to see if EGR would hold 10"hg vacuum after 30 min it was gone after 10 min it was down to 8"hg so I guess the EGR does not hold vacuum????

[watch4it]

If you see vacuum when you hear the click, what is clicking should be the EGR solenoid... cold advance is not related to EGR; one works with engine cold, the other when engine has warmed up.

check the EGR valve to see if it holds vacuum as I posted; after that I would suggest checking the hoses between the CVC and the egr valve and see if all of them adjust tightly...
it is the same valve clicking all the time not the EGR solenoid the one right to the front of it(not the aluminum looking one) not the one along side of the aluminium looking one the one in frnt of it.

Checked to see if EGR would hold 10"hg vacuum after 30 min it was gone after 10 min it was down to 8"hg so I guess the EGR does not hold vacuum???? it.

[watch4it]

it will hold vacuum, but it leaks off real slow.
Checked to see if EGR would hold 10"hg vacuum after 30 min it was gone after 10 min it was down to 8"hg so I guess the EGR does not hold vacuum????,

[ecogabriel]

As a general rule, it will be very hard to pass smog if you're using the wrong parts...

His black box looks like mine down to the 3-hosed canister too and the EGR solenoid in the lower right corner.
There is no hose #17 connected to the EGR solenoid in the 89 service manual. Unfortunately there is no 86-87 service manual to see the EGR system there; both systems are similar but not identical.
I fiddled with that box for quite some time until I figured out how it worked; that is why I may still go from memory even though I have not opened it in more than a year.
Other differences between black boxes: 88-89 have the two-stage intake manifold that 86-87 do not have; that solenoid is in the black box. Evaporative system in 88-89 is solenoid-controlled (and in the black box) when in 86-87 is controlled with a wax valve in the thermostat pipe.


I wish I had a picture of what to call the items in my blk box. My clicking seems to be coming from the switch next to the aluminum lookin solenoid on the right side of the Picture
Yes I do hear a click when I rapp the throttle after the engine is warmed up.
I have no codes flashing in the ECM..

I see a green thing close to the EGR solenoid with a hose attached to it, is that the one that clicks? can you follow the hoses to see where it goes? There should be another one similar to that one; I don't remember which one is for the cold advance and which for the A/C idle boost solenoid.

In an earlier post you talked about temp sensor not making proper contact; would you mind checking the connectors on the other two switches mounted in the thermostat pipe?

[ecogabriel]

it will hold vacuum, but it leaks off real slow.
Checked to see if EGR would hold 10"hg vacuum after 30 min it was gone after 10 min it was down to 8"hg so I guess the EGR does not hold vacuum????,

Since the valve operates intermittently, I do not see losing 2" in 10 minutes as a leaking valve; a valve that starts losing vacuum immediately after applying vacuum is
a leaking one. And you said the hoses are damn tight, so no vacuum leaks from there anyway.

Can you take a good picture of the thermostat pipe where the temp sensor and the other two switches are screwed in? One of those is for the radiator fan, and the other tells the ECU engine temperature.

[watch4it]

Since the valve operates intermittently, I do not see losing 2" in 10 minutes as a leaking valve; a valve that starts losing vacuum immediately after applying vacuum is
a leaking one. And you said the hoses are damn tight, so no vacuum leaks from there anyway.

Can you take a good picture of the thermostat pipe where the temp sensor and the other two switches are screwed in? One of those is for the radiator fan, and the other tells the ECU engine temperature.

<a href="http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/?action=view&current=DCFN0003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/?action=view&current=DCFN0001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Crap what type of link should i be selecting to let you have a link to my pics? The one I selected the one time posted my picture here on 3Gees. Didn't meen to do that.

here are my latest attempts for pics. Hose #12 and hose #19 come out of the green switch hose 12 goes to the vacuum switch on the themostate pipe hose #3 comes off the other side of that switch and goes to the charcol vapor cannestor mounted on the firewall. Hose #19 goes over to the valve on the front of the plenum on the injection and it has a little nylon adjustor lookin knob on the bottom of it and a vacuum pod in the top. Second picture. I checked the snap type connectores for the 2 switches as you asked and the seem clean and tight when ya snap them back on.
The switches on the thermostat pipe are 1. the vacuum switch with hose 12 running to it and hose 3 from it to the charcol canister. 2. The temp sender next to the vacuum switch. 3. The two switches on the top of the pipe.
All the vacuum hoses That I have messed with were like they were glued on, but they were not glued. I have checked them all and they all seem tight. The ones I took loose feel the same (tight) after I replaced them onto the connections.
Watch4it

[watch4it]

Since the valve operates intermittently, I do not see losing 2" in 10 minutes as a leaking valve; a valve that starts losing vacuum immediately after applying vacuum is
a leaking one. And you said the hoses are damn tight, so no vacuum leaks from there anyway.

Can you take a good picture of the thermostat pipe where the temp sensor and the other two switches are screwed in? One of those is for the radiator fan, and the other tells the ECU engine temperature.

and the other tells the ECU engine temperature.
So the one I changed and that had the loose connection was just for the gauge in the dash it wasn't the coolant temp sensor. It was the single wire switch next to the 2 hose vacuum switch.????

[watch4it]

Well I just went out and I don't know why I checked all the vacuum lines again while engine was up to op temp.
I found the click is coming from the orange colored solenoid next to the EGR solenoid. I unplugged the green solenoid (blk-yel) wire and that made no diff,so i unplugged the EGR selenoid and that made no diff, so I unplugged orange solenoid (blk-yel) wire and it made the click stop. When i unplugged the orange solenoid the click with rapping the throttle stopped. The hoses coming from the orange selenoid are 12 & 15. 15 goes to the vacuum addvance on the distributor and 12 is joined together with the other green selenoids 12 hose and it goes to the vacuum switch on the thermostat pipe.
I put my vacuum gage on the end of the canister that runs to the EGR Selenoid and as soon as I plugged the gauge on the engine stumbled and died. It would run fine with the hose just disconnected from the canister. It looked like It drew about 15-18"hg when I had the gauge hooked up. If i tied into the EGR solenoid hose and reved the engine it would give me about 8" hg and then that reading would drop back to zero. Rap it again and the vacuum would go about 8" and then drop again.
the other hose on the end of the cannister comes off at a ninety and it is the #16 hose to the EGR valve.
Don't know if any of this is relavant.

[Dr_Snooz]

If your air chamber started with three nipples and now has only two, then what happened to the third vacuum line?

[ecogabriel]

Well I just went out and I don't know why I checked all the vacuum lines again while engine was up to op temp.
I found the click is coming from the orange colored solenoid next to the EGR solenoid. I unplugged the green solenoid (blk-yel) wire and that made no diff,so i unplugged the EGR selenoid and that made no diff, so I unplugged orange solenoid (blk-yel) wire and it made the click stop. When i unplugged the orange solenoid the click with rapping the throttle stopped. The hoses coming from the orange selenoid are 12 & 15. 15 goes to the vacuum addvance on the distributor and 12 is joined together with the other green selenoids 12 hose and it goes to the vacuum switch on the thermostat pipe.
I put my vacuum gage on the end of the canister that runs to the EGR Selenoid and as soon as I plugged the gauge on the engine stumbled and died. It would run fine with the hose just disconnected from the canister. It looked like It drew about 15-18"hg when I had the gauge hooked up. If i tied into the EGR solenoid hose and reved the engine it would give me about 8" hg and then that reading would drop back to zero. Rap it again and the vacuum would go about 8" and then drop again.
the other hose on the end of the cannister comes off at a ninety and it is the #16 hose to the EGR valve.
Don't know if any of this is relavant.


First, when you plugged the hose going to the EGR solenoid with the vacuum gauge you acted AS IF the solenoid was acting the EGR system. Engine stumbled and died tells that there is enough vacuum to operate the system, that vacuum reachs the EGR valve, and that exhaust gases find their way to the intake manifold.
I think you tested the EGR solenoid earlier applying battery voltage to it; it should kill the engine when powered

It still surprises me that there are no code 12 and you have an emissions failure for NOx. If there were an electrical problem, the ECU should flag it. For instance, a non-working solenoid is flagged as code 12 because ECU operates EGR and when it compares EGR valve reading (from the valve's sensor at the top) it sees something different as it expected. Same if the valve sensor is the problem. Same if there were a vacuum leak or no vacuum in the system (which we know it is not the case here)

The only thing I can think of is that ECU does not operate EGR system because it thinks engine is still cold, and EGR system does not operate with engine cold. It is maybe anectodal, but my failed NOx values were FAR WORSE than yours -above 2K whatever the unit-.
I know from reading about emissions stuff that if the engine runs rich that cools down combustion chamber (it increases other emissions, but I'm thinking about NOx). The instance in which the engine runs richer is when it is cold. The only thing I am thinking about is that perhaps the temperature sensor is failing, not enough to flag a code but enough for the ECU to see engine as cold.

I would do this: I would unplug the EGR valve vacuum hose and start driving the car that way. If ECU sees engine hot then it would try to operate the EGR system and because of the unplugged hose it would not operate it, so it should post a code 12 and light the dashboard light. If this is the case, then we should start checking the wiring going from the solenoid to the ECU
ON the other hand, if it sees engine as cold it won't try to operate it and there should be no code.

I'll check this logic with my car tomorrow and see what happens.

[ecogabriel]

If your air chamber started with three nipples and now has only two, then what happened to the third vacuum line?

HIs air chamber (the one in the car) has always had three nipples; the one in the box he bought from the yard had two

No third line anymore for 88-89, so the air chamber is different. They used a different solenoid valve so they also got rid of hose #17 that provided atmospheric pressure to the EGR valve when not in use.

[watch4it]

If your air chamber started with three nipples and now has only two, then what happened to the third vacuum line?

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0003_edited.jpg
I never changed the canister. The only part I changed was the CVC Valve out of the JY box to mine. Everything else is still the same parts minus the catylitic converter which I changed on the smog techs advice.

[ecogabriel]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/DCFN0003_edited.jpg
I never changed the canister. The only part I changed was the CVC Valve out of the JY box to mine. Everything else is still the same parts minus the catylitic converter which I changed on the smog techs advice.

My canister looks exactly the same; even the black tape is the same...

[watch4it]

I would do this: I would unplug the EGR valve vacuum hose and start driving the car that way. If ECU sees engine hot then it would try to operate the EGR system and because of the unplugged hose it would not operate it, so it should post a code 12 and light the dashboard light. If this is the case, then we should start checking the wiring going from the solenoid to the ECU
ON the other hand, if it sees engine as cold it won't try to operate it and there should be no code.

Hope your not testing on your car. I shure don't want anyone else to have problems.
I did as you stated above and it turned my PGM-FI light back on in the dash panel and set or flashes a code 12 in the ECM.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Hope your not testing on your car. I shure don't want anyone else to have problems.
I did as you stated above and it turned my PGM-FI light back on in the dash panel and set or flashes a code 12 in the ECM.
watch4it

I would not tell anyone to do anything I would not do myself.
Yes, I did what I told you on my car. With my car dead cold, I disconnected EGR valve sensor, turned it on and started driving. No codes until engine got warm, then code 12. Turn engine off, then back on, and started driving; as the engine was already warm, the dashboard light came on almost immediately.
Later that day I did another test but this time with what I exactly told you (#16 hose disconnected). ENgine cold, I drove for a mile or so with no dashboard light but once it was warm... dashboard light on and code 12 on the ECU led.

So, whatever problem flagged a code 12 when you first posted seems gone now.
Your ECU does not flag a code when everything is connected because it is using your EGR system. I had thought that if the TW sensor was off range somehow it might not let ECU know that engine was warm enough for EGR to come on... well, I was wrong although the theory was right; you can drive the car while cold and no dasboard light (or computer code) would show up until engine is warm and attempts to use EGR system.

Now we have a failure that is EGR-related but your system -for all evidence we have- works. The only reason left is EGR passages partially or totally clogged. It may be that your EGR valve is clogged with carbon, or the individual runners to each cylinder are partially obstructed. Far less likely, the pipe bringing exhaust gases from the exhaust manifold to the EGR valve may be clogged. IN any case, even if the system works, if there is an obstruction somewhere that prevents exhaust gas to reach the cylinders you'll have a NOx failure in an emissions test.

You may try removing the EGR valve and looking for carbon deposits if you have not done so. With the valve out you may try running the car to see if exhaust gases get to the valve; you'll hear noises if the passage from the exhaust manifold is unobstructed. Oh, the f... nuts on the EGR valve are f... hard to get out; make sure you get a hexagonal socket of the right size or you may not be able to get them out

Try getting the document below; although it applies to Accords 1990 and later they have the same delivery system of individual EGR passages and suffer the same problems; what refers to the 1990 model in that document seems to square right with 3Gs.

http://home.comcast.net/~em-engineering/T2T013.pdf

Sorry for the delay: I was out of town last weekend and I am nuts w/school stuff...

[watch4it]

I would not tell anyone to do anything I would not do myself.
Yes, I did what I told you on my car. With my car dead cold, I disconnected EGR valve sensor, turned it on and started driving. No codes until engine got warm, then code 12. Turn engine off, then back on, and started driving; as the engine was already warm, the dashboard light came on almost immediately.
Later that day I did another test but this time with what I exactly told you (#16 hose disconnected). ENgine cold, I drove for a mile or so with no dashboard light but once it was warm... dashboard light on and code 12 on the ECU led.

So, whatever problem flagged a code 12 when you first posted seems gone now.
Your ECU does not flag a code when everything is connected because it is using your EGR system. I had thought that if the TW sensor was off range somehow it might not let ECU know that engine was warm enough for EGR to come on... well, I was wrong although the theory was right; you can drive the car while cold and no dasboard light (or computer code) would show up until engine is warm and attempts to use EGR system.

Now we have a failure that is EGR-related but your system -for all evidence we have- works. The only reason left is EGR passages partially or totally clogged. It may be that your EGR valve is clogged with carbon, or the individual runners to each cylinder are partially obstructed. Far less likely, the pipe bringing exhaust gases from the exhaust manifold to the EGR valve may be clogged. IN any case, even if the system works, if there is an obstruction somewhere that prevents exhaust gas to reach the cylinders you'll have a NOx failure in an emissions test.

You may try removing the EGR valve and looking for carbon deposits if you have not done so. With the valve out you may try running the car to see if exhaust gases get to the valve; you'll hear noises if the passage from the exhaust manifold is unobstructed. Oh, the f... nuts on the EGR valve are f... hard to get out; make sure you get a hexagonal socket of the right size or you may not be able to get them out

Try getting the document below; although it applies to Accords 1990 and later they have the same delivery system of individual EGR passages and suffer the same problems; what refers to the 1990 model in that document seems to square right with 3Gs.

http://home.comcast.net/~em-engineering/T2T013.pdf

Sorry for the delay: I was out of town last weekend and I am nuts w/school stuff...
Egr Nuts: First time I used a 12 or 13 mm 1/4" drive socket with a 1/4" 360 deg universal with a 1/4" to 3/8" adapter to a 3/8 drive ratchet and extension. Np, No wd 40 just a sharp smack on the ratchet when it was loaded with presshure and it poppedem loose, as the nuts loosened I raised the EGR valve with one hand as the nuts came to the end of the studs, the socket had a little dumb dumb in it to hold the nut. I can never find stuff when it drops.
Iam shure my passageways are clean I did that when I took the head off and the tube from the exhuast manifold was cleaned ot to. I will Pull the EGR and the pipe connection
and make shure they are clear.
I did buy a new O2 sensor and a new TW sensor and changed them. I think it pretty well leaves only the EGR passage ways as to what could be the culprit.
Thanks ecogabriel for the hang time. Hope you are havin fun at it. Quite rare to find someone who will share their time and knowledge and have the hang time you have exibited. Ill reply after next smog!!!
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Most likely, there is one or two partially clogged EGR passages. If you saw the photos at the end of that document, you could see where the passages get clogged -where the runner gets in to the individual intake runners. Those are small enough to clog themselves with carbon. You could also see how hard is reaching them in our cars and those that came immediately after. Even if you reach them with a hook from the intake chamber I am not sure they can cleaned up completely.

Partially clogged runners would explain why you can still kill the engine when applying vacuum to the valve but fail emissions; exhaust flow reaches the cylinders but not enough during engine operation to keep NOx down. ECU does not detect anything wrong because the only test it does is for the valve sensor position. More modern cars (OBDII) test also EGR flow using other means.

Partially clogged EGR runners are a common failure for Hondas; you google them and they keep popping up.

TW sensor was not likely the problem; its only connection with EGR was telling ECU about engine temperature, and the test you did shows that it is working. It won't hurt anything though (except your pocket) and they are known to cause problems as some guys reported here.
02 sensors are a tune up item so if you do not remember when you replaced it it was a good thing to do.

Good luck

[Dr_Snooz]

I think you drill into the passages from the top of the manifold. There are little blobs of solder or something that you drill out. I can't find a pic. Clean up and then replace with a threaded plug.

[watch4it]

Most likely, there is one or two partially clogged EGR passages. If you saw the photos at the end of that document, you could see where the passages get clogged -where the runner gets in to the individual intake runners. Those are small enough to clog themselves with carbon. You could also see how hard is reaching them in our cars and those that came immediately after. Even if you reach them with a hook from the intake chamber I am not sure they can cleaned up completely.

Partially clogged runners would explain why you can still kill the engine when applying vacuum to the valve but fail emissions; exhaust flow reaches the cylinders but not enough during engine operation to keep NOx down. ECU does not detect anything wrong because the only test it does is for the valve sensor position. More modern cars (OBDII) test also EGR flow using other means.

Partially clogged EGR runners are a common failure for Hondas; you google them and they keep popping up.

TW sensor was not likely the problem; its only connection with EGR was telling ECU about engine temperature, and the test you did shows that it is working. It won't hurt anything though (except your pocket) and they are known to cause problems as some guys reported here.
02 sensors are a tune up item so if you do not remember when you replaced it it was a good thing to do.

Good luck

Downloading a pic of the last smog slip to photobucket. Sorry someone else had my handle "watch4it" so I used an ole stand by "Chokeyourchicken".
ANYHOW it passed this time. I think the sugestion of the O2 sensor as a tune up item was right. I had never changed it but I bought the car with 190,000 + miles on it.
I guess I will go through all the things it takes to clean the EGR Runners just to make shure MOST of the EGR system was addressed.
Thanks again 4 all the help I hope the Karma repays itself to you tenfold. Iam shure in debt to you. Good Job, Practise makes perfect.:thumbup:
Now I'll see 300,000 miles on this little beauty. Then I might try for 400,000.
Sincerely: watch4it
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/chokeyourchicken/P2%20connection%204%201987%20Honda%20Accord%20%20L X/img006.jpg

[watch4it]

I think you drill into the passages from the top of the manifold. There are little blobs of solder or something that you drill out. I can't find a pic. Clean up and then replace with a threaded plug.


http://home.comcast.net/~em-engineering/T2T013.pdf
Here ya go!!
Thanks ecogabriel:
watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Nice work! She's good for 400k, just don't give up on her.

[watch4it]

Nice work! She's good for 400k, just don't give up on her.

And I am glad I didn't have to borrow that hammer you are toting around with ya. Thanks for your help.:thumbup:
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

I'm glad you ended up passing smog and you can keep the car running. I had to retrace the thread to see the O2 sensor thing; they are cheap, we generally do not have the resources to test them (I don't have an oscilloscope) it is sensible to replace them.
One thing I like is that you ended up learning things by working instead (or besides) reading about them.

[phrenology]

SMOG FAIL:huh:

I had an EGR code on the ECU, ended up replacing the the EGR main valve/lift sensor assembly. The code/engine light went away and the stutter at idle RPMs mostly went away. I took it to smog today and it passed everything in the 15 mph range but failed the 25 mph range tests in NO parts per million blowing a 913. Compared to the previous owners smog at 617 in the same category. I'm not sure what the CA tolerance is in the NO readings but it's testing a lot higher than it did a year ago.

The tech said it was running lean in the 25 mph, I think the problem is also contributing to minor low idle issues. Any guesses? I'm thinking its an 02 Sensor throwing off the map? Its pretty much stock and I don't think any of the original sensors have been replaced. I'm at 117K, so things like sensors could be starting to fail now. :dunno:

[phrenology]

Any ideas on decreasing high NO @ higher speeds?

[phrenology]

Gonna try to get this high NO reading sussed out next week.

[ecogabriel]

A short answer: running lean may be a O2 sensor on its way out. If you have no record when it was last replaced I'd get a new one; a universal-type runs about $20.

If you don't mind reading take a look at the links below; they talk about emission failures and most likely causes. They apply in general to our cars but there are some things that don't... I keep some of that info in my computer for reference

http://www.auto-repair-help.com/auto_diagnostics/diagnose_emission_test_failure.php

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr1196.htm

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2004/techtips.htm

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h56.pdf (I found this and belong to toyota but it is good from what I have seen so far)

Sorry for not posting earlier I'm nuts running with other stuff so I don't log in as I used to


would you mind posting the results of your smog test?

[phrenology]

A short answer: running lean may be a O2 sensor on its way out. If you have no record when it was last replaced I'd get a new one; a universal-type runs about $20.

If you don't mind reading take a look at the links below; they talk about emission failures and most likely causes. They apply in general to our cars but there are some things that don't... I keep some of that info in my computer for reference

http://www.auto-repair-help.com/auto_diagnostics/diagnose_emission_test_failure.php

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr1196.htm

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2004/techtips.htm

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h56.pdf (I found this and belong to toyota but it is good from what I have seen so far)

Sorry for not posting earlier I'm nuts running with other stuff so I don't log in as I used to


would you mind posting the results of your smog test?

Thanks for your help. I'll read more when I get home, and post up the Smog results.

[ecogabriel]

I found an article on how to diagnose EGR issues in our Hondas.

It has a way to test EGR valve sensors but I had discovered one anyway; what it is good is the description on how to clean the individual EGR runners. Also, it has a fast-track way to test functionality for 86-87s accords (88-89s are slightly different but there's a service manual for those)... It also described a problem I had recently (a lazy EGR) that is more typical (because of design) in early 3Gs than in the late ones.

http://img213.imageshack.us/i/hondaegr13.pdf/

Anyway, it seems that you may fix the NOx problem (if the failure is not by a large margin) with a new O2 sensor. That is the reason for posting all the links and whatnot; just keep them as reference (plus what it is here on how to check the valve itself)

[phrenology]

I already replaced the main EGR valve before I went to smog. I will try to copy and post my smog reports tomorrow. The smog tech noted that it was running lean at the 25 mph test when it failed the NO. BTW thanks for all the links.