READ THIS,VERY INTERESTING....(e-mail going around)

[detroit313]

Bad Mouthing American / Canadian Vehicles
Get the Facts Straight !

Here are some facts from the WEB that don't get the press they deserve - next time you hear negative comments about domestic this may come in handy it also has the sites that the info came from as well. Pay particular attention to #13 - It says a lot

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?
a. Germany
b. Japan
c. Korea
d. United States

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?
a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. GM
d. Nissan
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a. Acura, BMW, Cadillac (all luxury makes)
b. Honda, Mercury, Nissan (all non-luxury makes)
c. Acura (lux), Chevrolet (non-lux), BMW (lux), Mazda (non-lux)

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?
a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima (Nissan)
c. Camry ( Toyota )
d. Malibu (Chevrolet)

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?
a. Avalon ( Toyota )
b. Grand Prix ( Pontiac )
c. Sable (Mercury)

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?
a. Dakota (Dodge)
b. Ranger (Ford)
c. Tacoma ( Toyota )

7. Which car is the most economical overall?
a. Aveo (Chevrolet)
b. Fit (Honda)
c. Prius ( Toyota )

8. Which car did the LA Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?
a. A6 (Audi)
b. CTS (Cadillac)
c. RL (Acura)

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?
a. Chevrolet
b. Honda
c. Toyota

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?
a. Aura (Saturn)
b. Camry ( Toyota )
c. Fit (Honda)

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?
a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima coupe (Nissan)
c. Malibu (Chevrolet)

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. General Motors
d. Hyundai
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen

ANSWERS:

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States .
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota .
www.businessweek.com/a...

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.

a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
www.jdpower.com/autos/...
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America , taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
www.edmunds.com/help/a...

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.
www.latimes.com/classi...

9.. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award.. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that? A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
www.greencar.com/featu.../

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
www.northamericancarof...

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
www.northamericancarof...

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

13.If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit ’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit .

Detroit automakers: 79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America .
Foreign automakers: 33 U..S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America .
levelfieldinstitute.or.../

[Demon1024]

i agree on the vw point, but what is intitial quality in 3 years? 5,8,20 seriously i know id love to buy a car every 3 years. but i dont want to have to. i dont see nearly as many domestic cars making it to 300k as select imports. being American i hate to say it but it's true.
i'm all in for having a cady sport (got to drool on one today) but till i see more us brands getting more miles to a car i'll stick to honda

[Nafs Asdf]

Also aren't those answers based mostly on surveys, of Americans... And correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the average American say that any domestic product is better than any foreign one? I'm not saying the "facts" as you call them are necessarely wrong, but might they not just be a little bit biased?

Do the same surveys in Europe and European cars will top the list, do it in Japan and Japanese cars will be first.

[Elver]

I guess my first question is who put all of this together? There could be biases. Also I know that currently the U.S has made a few very good cars especially the Cadillac CTS V and the Chevrolet Corvette to name a few. I honestly dont doubt that in the last couple of years American auto makers are striving to make some really good cars. But we should look at why... Not only has American auto maker put most of their money in trucks but if we look in the 80's and the 90's America came up with some really really crappy cars. Many people lost their faith in GM. Chrysler and Ford during these years. It was also in these years when Camry and the Accord were becoming kings in the market. Why exactly have American's lost their faith?? I guess it will be reliability and quality. I really don't question most of the information that suggests that some American cars are in cases BETTER that Japanese ones. I guess my question is why hasn't it always been this way??!

[Vanilla Sky]

All I can say is the Malibu? Sure, it's a nice car, but I don't like that much plastic in my interior.

And I don't take anything JD Power says into consideration, especially "initial quality." Initial quality is what a panel of judges thinks of the build quality of a car just after it has been built. Many of the high ranking cars in initial quality have pretty big issues, even with the items scored in initial quality.

Sure, when I look at buying cars, I look at all makes. We're looking for a small wagon right now. I can't buy anything but the Caliber from any of the US makers, so I'm going Japanese. When Detroit builds a car in my market segment that isn't garbage, I'll buy it.

[detroit313]

thats the answer i KNEW i would get from people...JD powers is very respectble by the way. what is it with people thinking domestic cars are inferior? WTF!! have you people even owned one? is everyone outside of MI,OH,and the midwest thinking this way? we owned them all of our lives and they all have been great vehicles! i just dont get it..............

[rfiks]

this pisses me off, but im not surprised. wow where do i start...
if gm is soo gr8 why are they going out of buisness? and who are these jd power jerkofs-what we cant make decisions on our own? and what good is a luxory car? so you can make big payments and look cool i doing it? why would red bull indorse monster... they would'nt! america is having a hard time selling their p.o.s. so the have to put stuff like this out. look at how different HONDA commercials are from gm's. HONDA's commercials are alil funny (imo) gm's commercials are always the same! "they're trying to sell":deal: by talking about the various awards the won and sometimes even put out there how this p.o.s. is better than an import and sometimes include american made songs like sweet home alabama n stuff. HONDA does'nt have to try to sell they sell any ways!!! they make cars, motorcycles, boat engines, they even make air planes! and everybodys all over HONDA'S nuts after they made v-tec, now theres cars with "vvti", "ecotec" in shit hahaha maan' these guyz are full of it! and i was just a matter of time b4 this was gunna happen look how popular HONDA were back in the dayz and their still popular, the price of a b-series still has'nt changed much after the k-series and in not gunna get started on the "k". and its easy to make these cars fast. to me there is no better automobile than a import and no better car than a HONDA!

[Vanilla Sky]

Yeah, I have had experience with American cars. Take my dad's 2003 Chevy Silverado with 28,000 miles on it that was having steering and suspension issues since 8,000 miles? How about my mom's 2000 MAzda 626 with a Ford-built CD4E transmission that was dying at 80,000 miles? What about the Camaro that I've been daily driving since last year? It's falling apart! I've had 3geez with more miles in better mechanical condition.

Yeah, I have experience. When Detroit builds a car I like, I'll buy. Currently, the only thing that is available that I would consider is a Pontiac Vibe, but that's nothing more than a reskinned Toyota Matrix.

[Vanilla Sky]

And I'm going to make one observation here. The answer to number 7 isn't the Chevy Aveo, but the Daewoo Kalos. It's built in Korea, not in the US.

Even the Wikipedia entry for the Chevy Aveo is just rebranded :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_aveo

[cubert]

this pisses me off, but im not surprised. wow where do i start...
if gm is soo gr8 why are they going out of buisness? and who are these jd power jerkofs-what we cant make decisions on our own? and what good is a luxory car? so you can make big payments and look cool i doing it? why would red bull indorse monster... they would'nt! america is having a hard time selling their p.o.s. so the have to put stuff like this out. look at how different HONDA commercials are from gm's. HONDA's commercials are alil funny (imo) gm's commercials are always the same! "they're trying to sell":deal: by talking about the various awards the won and sometimes even put out there how this p.o.s. is better than an import and sometimes include american made songs like sweet home alabama n stuff. HONDA does'nt have to try to sell they sell any ways!!! they make cars, motorcycles, boat engines, they even make air planes! and everybodys all over HONDA'S nuts after they made v-tec, now theres cars with "vvti", "ecotec" in shit hahaha maan' these guyz are full of it! and i was just a matter of time b4 this was gunna happen look how popular HONDA were back in the dayz and their still popular, the price of a b-series still has'nt changed much after the k-series and in not gunna get started on the "k". and its easy to make these cars fast. to me there is no better automobile than a import and no better car than a HONDA!


:omg:


please stop.


What are luxury cars for? Not everyone likes driving around in a underpowered sub-compact car! What an idea! Besides, what does this have to do with American vs Imports?

You comment on American companies using American songs in their ads...what would you like them to use? A nice selection of German pop hits? I mean, really, where the hell are you going with this?

And before you pop another nut over "TEH MAD KRAZEE FAST VTAK SYSTEM DAT HONDA MADE"...They weren't the first ones to do variable valve timing.


Then you say blahblah blah easy to make fast...guess what? small block American engines are easy to make fast too. Again, this has nothing to do with the OP point, because it wasn't based on people modding the cars.



This being said, I do prefer imports over American stuff in most situations, although I havnt had a lot of experience with the newer cars, import or domestic. (newest being late 90's early 2000's)

[2oodoor]

It is my business to keep up with some of this in trade publications so I got most of those questions right.
Read the questions very carefully.

[turabaka]

I'm not gonna bash on American cars or anything here, but I just thought I'd add my 2 cents just for the hell of it.

I work at Autozone, and the most common cars I see coming in are Chevy, Ford, GM, Isuzu, and Subaru. The cars that I almost never see unless the owner did something incredibly stupid of they're buying performance parts is Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mitsubishi. I'm not saying that American cars suck, since in Idaho a lot of people own trucks, but some of the problems they have are just ridiculous sometimes.

ps. thought I'd add this cause I think it's funny. The chevy truck guys are my worst customers. They usually ask their questions like this. "I need a alternator for a chevy 350" where I have to follow up with "what year", and the usually response is "they're all the same" damned rednecks piss me off sometimes. Next time one of them asks I'm just gonna grab a random part, and hand it to them.

[2oodoor]

^^^ I concour^^^^
that is what makes me lean towards ford, you have to know what you are doing to work on them, and that random part you hand them they may just be able to work it! LOL

Most people do not expect to find parts for Honda (your list) there anyway.
You should be selling filters, belts, cv axles, brake parts once in a while, but that would be about it.

[turabaka]

^^^ I concour^^^^
that is what makes me lean towards ford, you have to know what you are doing to work on them, and that random part you hand them they may just be able to work it! LOL

Most people do not expect to find parts for Honda (your list) there anyway.
You should be selling filters, belts, cv axles, brake parts once in a while, but that would be about it.

yeah. Although like I said usually the only time it's something other than a tune up part the owner did something incredibly stupid the break it.

[lostforawhile]

um this is a honda bulletin board, of course people are going to be biased towards hondas. If this survey was on a ford board or a gm board everyone would biased towards the american cars. as of right now,there isn't much i like except older cars, even my wifes 98 civic has way too much plastic and it's cheap looking inside.

[cubert]

^^^ I concour^^^^
that is what makes me lean towards ford, you have to know what you are doing to work on them, and that random part you hand them they may just be able to work it! LOL

Most people do not expect to find parts for Honda (your list) there anyway.
You should be selling filters, belts, cv axles, brake parts once in a while, but that would be about it.


Maybe its just my experience, but ive had much better luck with Chevy trucks.

When i first started at the shop i used to work at, they had an F-150 with the straight 6 in it, it was gutless, got horrible fuel economy, and shifted like garbage (thank god we never pulled a trailer with it).


They then upgraded to a 99 Chevy 1500 with the 5.3 in it. This truck was tough, pulled hard, shifted great, fuel economy was average, and we always pulled trailers with it (everything from open snowmobile trailers to a 26' enclosed trailer with 8-9 bikes in it!) The only issue was it was a farm truck before we had it so it rusted out quick.

They also on occasion brought in the general managers 2500 with the 6.0 in it. This thing would pull that same enclosed trailer at 85-90mph with no issue/swaying etc.


They then went back to Fords, an F-150 with the 4.6, and an F-350 with the 5.4. Neither are all that powerful, (esp the 4.6, we put a small enclosed trailer on the back and the thing turned into a total dog. Each one developed a cracked exhaust mani after a little over 3 months of owning them, and the f-350 wasnt all that impressive in the towing department.


Again, could just be i had bad luck with fords... :dunno:

[2oodoor]

the ford with a 5.4 surely had some guts, come on now... I agree with the rest of it, comparing a 99 chevy 1500 to a streight six shifty ford is like comparing turkey burger to ribeye steak.. 5.3 chevy trucks are sweet no doubt about it. I have not seen these exhaust cracks like you mention... the exhaust pipes do pop and crack (sounds only) when you park them though.
I would not buy any other ford truck except uprgrading just like the one I have now (04 4.6 ext cab) honestly. If I were towing I would have a V-10 Ford or a Chevy diesel. We use a 5.4 short bed 150 at work, that thing will tote the mail bud... but I dread the day it needs plugs.
I have had all kinds.. Love the fords from sevanties n had a 72 Chevy cheyenne 454 4-10 gears, that thing would make your eyeballs water like riding without a helmet, FAST, burn rubber in every gear, automatic...I really liked the 99 1500 I had but the diff went out so I had to trade it quickley.

[cubert]

yea...the straight 6 comparo was a bad one :lol:

The 5.4 does have some nut to it, i will give it that...but maybe where its such a big truck it takes away some of that.


Like i said, maybe i got one that was taken care of poorly

[2oodoor]

these surveys can be curved to support any particular model
If you pick a field of odd models from toyota.. avalon, tercel, tundras... you will find more engineering mishaps than you would in tacoma or corollas. Thus you could bash the brand based on surveys inclusive of those vehicles toyota put out to target other markets. Tacoma and Corolla are long time world class products everyone else is targeting.
Honda, several models have suffered in quality, why? a number of theories could apply. Fact is, Americanized production schedules sort of forced their hand to reduce the number of operations required during assembly, and the materials like plastics and stamped steel had to be bought from the most economical sources, probably on bid. Nothing wrong with simplicity and "raw" cabin features, this was the way of Japanese cars decades ago was it not? Maybe we got a litte spoiled with the European immulation of our 3rd gen Accords ehh?
I know my 94 civic was made out of recycled chicken of the sea cans. lol
Hell that car would be almost fifteen years old now.. lol

[rfiks]

um this is a honda bulletin board, of course people are going to be biased towards hondas. If this survey was on a ford board or a gm board everyone would biased towards the american cars. as of right now,there isn't much i like except older cars, even my wifes 98 civic has way too much plastic and it's cheap looking inside.
thats what im sayin', the old ones are cool!(domestics) the new ones are just trash!!! i spent a good year as a auto dismantler and all i saw when digging through the mangled wreck of a gm is... "Made in Mexico." LOL the first time i seen it i yelled to my brother- hey did u see this shit!? he laffed and said, see their all like that! i know some people like domestics but to each his own... :stupid:

[1ajs]

theres alot of propoganda in that survay

in my city a good car is one that starts in -40 if u forget to plug her in... theres a reso why honda put heaters in the carbs on the a20

[labeledsk8r]

thats the answer i KNEW i would get from people...JD powers is very respectble by the way. what is it with people thinking domestic cars are inferior? WTF!! have you people even owned one? is everyone outside of MI,OH,and the midwest thinking this way? we owned them all of our lives and they all have been great vehicles! i just dont get it..............

i have owned a GM car before the 95 cutlass coupe... and my god i had some of the weirdest shit go rong on that... blown out fuel tank.. melted fuel sender (why i nthe hell is a fuel sender unit even getting hot!)door latches not working.. horible set up engine compartment (batt under the washer resivor?? come the fuck on) and just all around anoying.. i have had hondas and such treat me bad aswell... but not as bad as that cutlass did on repairs..

really i aswell feel that this is very bias ... american cars need to step back and rethink there outlook.. i mean i laughed at the most fuel econic car up[ there being an SUV and that they got it to match a normal non hybrid sedan... if american car makers were smart and if there new technology is so great.. then put it in a small car and tada the best car out there... but no lazzy ass americans have to have the biggest shit on the streets..

**edit** im not fully hateing on american cars.. they just have went way off there old paths... my grandparents have a ford 68 galixy 500 convertable and they still daily drive it wiht a crapload of miles... but american cars arnt built like that anymore..

[rfiks]

i have owned a GM car before the 95 cutlass coupe... and my god i had some of the weirdest shit go rong on that... blown out fuel tank.. melted fuel sender (why i nthe hell is a fuel sender unit even getting hot!)door latches not working.. horible set up engine compartment (batt under the washer resivor?? come the fuck on) and just all around anoying.. i have had hondas and such treat me bad aswell... but not as bad as that cutlass did on repairs..

really i aswell feel that this is very bias ... american cars need to step back and rethink there outlook.. i mean i laughed at the most fuel econic car up[ there being an SUV and that they got it to match a normal non hybrid sedan... if american car makers were smart and if there new technology is so great.. then put it in a small car and tada the best car out there... but no lazzy ass americans have to have the biggest shit on the streets..
rodger that!

[AccordB20A]

i cant even comment in this thread cause American cars aren't popular over here. we always make comments about how small someones cock is if we see a large American car/truck go past.

aaand american cars have to be reliable, its a larger country therefore they do more miles thats why they show as reliable cause they do millions of kms. but over here when the longest drive you can do is 1000km and the cars get started and stopped and started and stopped all the time they dont seem to last so they dont show as reliable.

[A18A]

only american car i know of over here are the chevy/toyota cavaliers, and fuck they suck

[Nafs Asdf]

Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.

http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00142/3205585.jpg

[paul]

thats the answer i KNEW i would get from people...JD powers is very respectble by the way. what is it with people thinking domestic cars are inferior? WTF!! have you people even owned one? is everyone outside of MI,OH,and the midwest thinking this way? we owned them all of our lives and they all have been great vehicles! i just dont get it..............

Stereotypes born from history which never were really lived-down or corrected fuel that misconception for the most part.

Quite a few domestics from the late 70s and early 80s were absolute abortions in terms of engineering, quality control, and performance; right when germany and asian started to get very good reputation/legacy in the US market, producing some of the best engineered cars to this day, even through the 90s it would be fair to say imports managed to maintain the lead in engineering/reliability.

What makes me nuts is how ridiculously hard-headed people are, on either side of the domestic/import fence! E.g. "I'd never own xxxx brand, they're total garbage and/or don't perform"...

[lostforawhile]

E.g. "I'd never own xxxx brand, they're total garbage and/or don't perform"...said while pushing their rustang uphill towards home,after the 1)engine 2)transmission 3) other major component eithier: 1)blew up 2) fell out 3) caught fire 4) failed in some almost impossible badly engineering induced way

[2oodoor]

Stereotypes born from history which never were really lived-down or corrected fuel that misconception for the most part.

Quite a few domestics from the late 70s and early 80s were absolute abortions in terms of engineering, quality control, and performance; right when germany and asian started to get very good reputation/legacy in the US market, producing some of the best engineered cars to this day, even through the 90s it would be fair to say imports managed to maintain the lead in engineering/reliability.

What makes me nuts is how ridiculously hard-headed people are, on either side of the domestic/import fence! E.g. "I'd never own xxxx brand, they're total garbage and/or don't perform"...

well stated Paul !
there are raunchy cars on both sides of the fence for sure! And once one model from a manufactor gets the rap, it's on...Asian cars of the 80's not many still on the road either.
The Tahoe hybrid mentioned, I still do not understand why they did not use a 5.3L engine in that instead of the 6.0 gas hog... 5.3 is capable of 23mpg highway easy.

[Ichiban]

well stated Paul !
there are raunchy cars on both sides of the fence for sure! And once one model from a manufactor gets the rap, it's on...Asian cars of the 80's not many still on the road either.
The Tahoe hybrid mentioned, I still do not understand why they did not use a 5.3L engine in that instead of the 6.0 gas hog... 5.3 is capable of 23mpg highway easy.

If I remember, Toyota and GM actually SHARED the 2 mode hybrid system, as opposed to what the article claims.

Edit: I think it was actually Toyota and Chrysler, but alot of the "statistics" are simply opinions. The Top Gear guys laughed at the "shoddy fit and finish" of the Cadillac CTS

[cubert]

said while pushing their rustang uphill towards home,after the 1)engine 2)transmission 3) other major component eithier: 1)blew up 2) fell out 3) caught fire 4) failed in some almost impossible badly engineering induced way


o rly?

[labeledsk8r]

said while pushing their rustang uphill towards home,after the 1)engine 2)transmission 3) other major component eithier: 1)blew up 2) fell out 3) caught fire 4) failed in some almost impossible badly engineering induced way

i cant make fun of rustangs as much anymore.. when my trans failed i nthe coupe my buddys 89 5.0 PUSHED my broken car home...

[2drSE-i]

Yeah, I have had experience with American cars. Take my dad's 2003 Chevy Silverado with 28,000 miles on it that was having steering and suspension issues since 8,000 miles? .

Literally the exact same experience with my dads 2003 silverado. Went through 3 sets of ball joints, 2 power steering racks, 3 sets of rod ends. All covered under warranty thank god. LITERALLY at 31,000 miles his power steering box went out. He made several heated phone calls to Chevy of america and they pretty much told him "Sorry, your SOL" Got it fixed, sold that piece of shit, and bought an Altima.

[2drSE-i]

Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.

http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00142/3205585.jpg

where are the other american brands? :kekeke:

[greentee76]

I really didn't read all of this thread but I would like to bring up one thing. Toyota has alot of recalls because they stepup and take care of issues when they are brought to their attention. I have a 99 Intrepid with the 2.7l V6 in it that Dodge knows is a POS, but instead of stepping up and remedying the issue they continue to stick their head in the sand and say that all of the issues are caused by poor maintence even when all scheduled maintence is done at THEIR DEALERSHIPS! So I don't think that a a recall is nessecarily a bad thing. My two cents....

[lostforawhile]

i cant make fun of rustangs as much anymore.. when my trans failed i nthe coupe my buddys 89 5.0 PUSHED my broken car home...I pulled my friends pos 80's mustang 5 miles home once,after something in the dizzy stripped out at IDLE. with the accord lol.

[rfiks]

I really didn't read all of this thread but I would like to bring up one thing. Toyota has alot of recalls because they stepup and take care of issues when they are brought to their attention. I have a 99 Intrepid with the 2.7l V6 in it that Dodge knows is a POS, but instead of stepping up and remedying the issue they continue to stick their head in the sand and say that all of the issues are caused by poor maintence even when all scheduled maintence is done at THEIR DEALERSHIPS! So I don't think that a a recall is nessecarily a bad thing. My two cents....
lol-wow dodge makes alot of POS! u ever seen a old neon on the streets with the paint peeling off and the engine sounding all warthefukout? now they make :nervous:srt-4:nervous:. i dont think n e 1 would buy these if they didnt have turbo. still a POS!

[epic1400cs]

I haven't owned American car in my life so I don't know so much about American cars. But just wondering why they are not visible in foreign country such as in Europe where another big market is.

Once I was surprised to know that in 80s US complained that Japan was not importing enough US cars compare to US importing Japanese cars. The American cars are too big for parking in Japanese supermarket that is a size of peanut and most of all they need RHD car but they were not making anything like that. I thought that was amusing.

On the other hand, US owns great cultures like pop songs and movies that go beyond cultures and countries. Why can't they make cars like that? I am sure they can do it. Production line can do it - most of US model of our cars were made in US! Designer can do it - hatch was designed in California and same to Wonder Civic in the 80s (big hit in Japan and EU). But there must be something stop them from going "International" - I don't know what that is.

[cubert]

lol-wow dodge makes alot of POS! u ever seen a old neon on the streets with the paint peeling off and the engine sounding all warthefukout? now they make :nervous:srt-4:nervous:. i dont think n e 1 would buy these if they didnt have turbo. still a POS!




Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...



And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific :rolleyes:


At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...

[markmdz89hatch]

where are the other american brands? :kekeke:

Opel and Ford.

FYI Opel here in the states is pretty much every single Saturn (ie. Aura, Sky, Vue, and Astra). In Australia (and NZ I think), and GB, it's Vauxhall.

[lostforawhile]

Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...



And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific :rolleyes:


At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...they were popular in roadracing and autocross because most of the roadrace cars had a lot of work to make them hold up,or were the spec roadrace model that was produced for a while. and even if you put a honda badge on a pos i can still tell it's not a honda lol, been around them too long.

[SZfiftyfour]

Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.

http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00142/3205585.jpg


where are the other american brands? :kekeke:

It technically isn't an 'american brand' but it is[one of] america's european brands: Opel is 100% GM since like 1929, though maybe not for long. There's talk of a buyout.
As for the e-mail:


ANSWERS:
1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?
Answer: United States .
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?
Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota .

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?
Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?
Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?
Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.

7. Which car is the most economical overall?
Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America , taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?
Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.

9.. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?
Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award.. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”
Did you catch that? A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?
Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?
Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

13.If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit ’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit .

It definately is biased. If j.d.power is survey-based than it could be as well. IMO:
1. Mercury, Cadillac, Lexus, & Buick. Vehicles of choice by the oldest MF'ers in the country. People that hardly ever drive, but slooowly when they do, and keep their vehicles impeccably maintained. Thats why they're in the top spot.
2. Everybody knows Volkswagen has sucked since the early 80's
3. About initial quality: "ooohh, that looks nice", anybody with a brain can do that job. I agree with VanillaSky on initial quality.
4. " "
5. Que?
6. " "
7. Chevy Aveo is a re-badged Daewoo (Korean)
8. The CTS runs on a sigma chassis, designed by Holden (Australian)
9. Its still a hybrid that gets less mpg's than my 26yr old Accord.
10. The Aura is a re-badged Opel Vectra (German)
11. The Malibu runs on the epsilon chassis, designed by GM-europe & Fiat. Consumer reports does show the Malibu as "above average" for reliability
12. Granted
13. Agreed
The thing is american vehicles [with the exception of truck/suv] aren't really american anymore. You cannot tell me there's no americans able to design a good chassis. They need to quit skeefin off their subsidaries, quit stifling their own designers, and quit giving themselves million dollar bonuses while their company fails!
I hate hearing people bash american vehicles. But, the auto industry here deserves it; at least the uber-greedy management/CEO's need their asses kicked, badly. I think if they want their bailout money they should be forced to go 3 rounds with a hungry Mike Tyson.

Edit: some of thats already been pointed out i see lol

[Ichiban]

On the other hand, US owns great cultures like pop songs and movies that go beyond cultures and countries. Why can't they make cars like that? I am sure they can do it. Production line can do it - most of US model of our cars were made in US! Designer can do it - hatch was designed in California and same to Wonder Civic in the 80s (big hit in Japan and EU). But there must be something stop them from going "International" - I don't know what that is.

The reason here is very simple. The american public keeps them from producing functional vehicles because an "american" would rather buy into fashion, than a practical piece of equipment. Here's proof:

-IFS on GM trucks; these trucks are no longer used as trucks, by men hauling shit for work. The soccer mom, driving her two kids to school in the 3/4 ton with the big solid front axle suspended by thick ass leaf packs, bitched about the rough ride.

"Why can't it be more carlike?" she said. Now it is, and you also got: more weight, the constant chance of wheels falling off, more cost, less user serviceability and a truck that's impossible to lift now, all because of a 600% increase in moving parts, each part which costs 10 times what the original parts that worked just fine cost.

But GM views it as gaining a completely new customer base for pickups, although they had to destroy the pickup to do it.

-Ford 6L Diesel; Ford was losing the HP wars versus Isuzu (GM) and Cummins (Dodge) running the outdated, but reliable 7.3L International engine. Detrimental, because no self respecting American buyer would ever buy the "least" powerful diesel truck. "Look how small my balls are, my pickup truck is slow!" So Ford forced International to push an experimental engine into production. What did buyers get? Better get good at pulling your cab, because it's the only way to change your head gaskets, at least every 50 000km. Maybe a big kevlar blanket will help keep the connecting rods inside the engine block.

-Chrysler: These guys just do stupid things for no reason. Nobody at their factories seems to be able to weld at all, evidenced by several class action suits stemming from things like lower A-arm mounts "just falling" off of crossmembers. And they gotta start owning up to the sludging problems in their engines. Also, pushrods and 2 valve wedge heads? Come on, this was state of the art in the 1930's, try multivalve heads that are actually designed to flow. Imports realized ages ago that this was the way to make lots of efficient power.

But no- the purists would totally reject any of that ricey crap, so the 360 pushrod truck block will live for another 40 years.

[epic1400cs]

Opel and Ford.

FYI Opel here in the states is pretty much every single Saturn (ie. Aura, Sky, Vue, and Astra). In Australia (and NZ I think), and GB, it's Vauxhall.
It depends how you define it. Opel is originally German but became part of GM group. Most of Europeans still think Opel is German, not American.

Ford yes, but as you can see the fact that we call it as "Ford UK", they tend to make and design their own cars that are very different from US counterpart. In a sense it is successful immigration of US company into UK though. In other words, it tells how complicated it is to survive in EU market.

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, seriously I tried to read through everything, but it seems like we're missing the point.

Everyone can 'blame' a bias as to why some 'moron' or 'illegitimate group like JD Power' could be so blind to call an 'american' car a good car.

Seriously though, let's look at GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge the same way we have for the past 20 to 30 years and say they're just the same 'ol crap they've been.

THAT'S WHAT THAT QUESTIONAIRE IS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE!

GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge have all made great strides in the past FEW (as in like 5 or less) years to boost the quality of their cars. Hence the reason the Malibu was recipient of many accolades last year. Although I don't have one, I have heard that it's a damn impressive car. Keeping on the GM train, we have Saturn. Has anyone actually driven a new Aura, Vue or Astra? Every one of them is damn impressive, especially when you compare them to the Saturn of yesteryear.

I can't speak for Ford on their quality, but it's been stated a number of times in various magazines that I frequently read, that they too have been paying closer attention to their quality standards.

To touch on a few specific points brought up. On an older episode of TopGear (ie. 2003 or 4) they did test drive the CTS-V, and while saying that the power was impressive, they didn't hold back on calling the interior quality junk and the ride like a toboggan. Now, I had been in the market for a CTS-V for the past 2 years, but after riding in an '06 I was not very impressed, and agreed with everything Jeremy said. HOWEVER, did anyone notice that the CTS was redone for '08? ...and that there's no '08 CTS-V? ...that's because GM/Cadillac went back to the drawing board on the V series and tossed all the old crap out the window. The newest V has chalked up the fastest time for a production 4DR sedan at the Nürburgring track in German. That means it's destroyed the M5, AMG S-series, and anything else you can come up with. How's quality? Read any review on the new CTS and you'll get your unanimous answer.

For the ignorant claim of why the big three are knocking on the fed's window for a hand-out: (Let's preface this by saying it's part of my job to understand the core finances of distressed companies such as these.) Is it because their products suck? Actually, uhmm.... NO!

It's because the big three are so heavily burdened by the labor unions (not labor laws... ..UNIONS) that have insisted on painfully expensive insurance, retirement, long-term contracts, pension, dissability, exclusivity contracts, etc, etc, etc. Not only that, but the executive/upper management 'incentives' are far too high. ...Now one of the real biggies: Their dealer network. Think of this as having a Dunkin Donuts (DD) on one block getting 1000 customers a day. Now build another DD one block down. Do you expect that to just breed another 1000 customers and the other store maintain the 1000 per day too? NOPE. Having a convenient dealer is one thing, but having an over-saturation of dealers just becomes a HUGE overhead and expense. Take a look at the specs on how many Chevy dealers there are in the US. Now compare that to Honda dealerships. All of these (except the corporate paychecks) are due to the desire to have so many americans employed by/supported by the big three, and for them to return the favor by keeping them 'made in america'. ...Ironically, it's what's killing them. Hundreds of under (or poorly) performing dealerships need to be flat out closed down. These 'pension for life, or benefits for life' deals need to be eliminated. The labor unions need to sit back at the table with the big three execs and renegotiate the contracts to be mutually beneficial. Only then, can any of the big three reduce their burn-rate to less then their rate of revenue generation. Of course a down economy doesn't help auto-sales either, but that's regardless.

Now a few years ago if someone told me that I'd be seriously considering a Saturn as an alternative to a Honda Civic, I'd tell them they're an idiot. However, if they told me I'd be considering an Opel as a alternative, I'd be curious just how they suggest that come true being that Opel stopped being imported to the US in the late 70's. Now, I have to admit, that Astra is a great little car, and the Ecotec is one seriously impressive little 4-banger.

sorry, it's getting late and I have to end this seemingly endless rant. i hope someone takes the time to at least skim it over and see some helpful info in it.

[markmdz89hatch]

It depends how you define it. Opel is originally German but became part of GM group. Most of Europeans still think Opel is German, not American.

Ford yes, but as you can see the fact that we call it as "Ford UK", they tend to make and design their own cars that are very different from US counterpart. In a sense it is successful immigration of US company into UK though. In other words, it tells how complicated it is to survive in EU market.

Agreed. Opel is just owned by GM, and is not 'american' by definition of 'being made in america' ...but that's like us (in the states) calling a Honda Accord a 'japanese' car, given that all but their motors are made in Ohio. But solely for reason of the sourced article, and bearing in mind the origin of the parent company, I'll go out on a limb and bundle Saturn (our Opel) in the 'domestic/american car' bin. I don't agree with the label, but again, just for the sake of argument that all GM cars are 'crap american cars'.

[2oodoor]

Ok, seriously I tried to read through everything, but it seems like we're missing the point.

Everyone can 'blame' a bias as to why some 'moron' or 'illegitimate group like JD Power' could be so blind to call an 'american' car a good car.

Seriously though, let's look at GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge the same way we have for the past 20 to 30 years and say they're just the same 'ol crap they've been.

THAT'S WHAT THAT QUESTIONAIRE IS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE!

GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge have all made great strides in the past FEW (as in like 5 or less) years to boost the quality of their cars. Hence the reason the Malibu was recipient of many accolades last year. Although I don't have one, I have heard that it's a damn impressive car. Keeping on the GM train, we have Saturn. Has anyone actually driven a new Aura, Vue or Astra? Every one of them is damn impressive, especially when you compare them to the Saturn of yesteryear.

I can't speak for Ford on their quality, but it's been stated a number of times in various magazines that I frequently read, that they too have been paying closer attention to their quality standards.

To touch on a few specific points brought up. On an older episode of TopGear (ie. 2003 or 4) they did test drive the CTS-V, and while saying that the power was impressive, they didn't hold back on calling the interior quality junk and the ride like a toboggan. Now, I had been in the market for a CTS-V for the past 2 years, but after riding in an '06 I was not very impressed, and agreed with everything Jeremy said. HOWEVER, did anyone notice that the CTS was redone for '08? ...and that there's no '08 CTS-V? ...that's because GM/Cadillac went back to the drawing board on the V series and tossed all the old crap out the window. The newest V has chalked up the fastest time for a production 4DR sedan at the Nürburgring track in German. That means it's destroyed the M5, AMG S-series, and anything else you can come up with. How's quality? Read any review on the new CTS and you'll get your unanimous answer.

For the ignorant claim of why the big three are knocking on the fed's window for a hand-out: (Let's preface this by saying it's part of my job to understand the core finances of distressed companies such as these.) Is it because their products suck? Actually, uhmm.... NO!

It's because the big three are so heavily burdened by the labor unions (not labor laws... ..UNIONS) that have insisted on painfully expensive insurance, retirement, long-term contracts, pension, dissability, exclusivity contracts, etc, etc, etc. Not only that, but the executive/upper management 'incentives' are far too high. ...Now one of the real biggies: Their dealer network. Think of this as having a Dunkin Donuts (DD) on one block getting 1000 customers a day. Now build another DD one block down. Do you expect that to just breed another 1000 customers and the other store maintain the 1000 per day too? NOPE. Having a convenient dealer is one thing, but having an over-saturation of dealers just becomes a HUGE overhead and expense. Take a look at the specs on how many Chevy dealers there are in the US. Now compare that to Honda dealerships. All of these (except the corporate paychecks) are due to the desire to have so many americans employed by/supported by the big three, and for them to return the favor by keeping them 'made in america'. ...Ironically, it's what's killing them. Hundreds of under (or poorly) performing dealerships need to be flat out closed down. These 'pension for life, or benefits for life' deals need to be eliminated. The labor unions need to sit back at the table with the big three execs and renegotiate the contracts to be mutually beneficial. Only then, can any of the big three reduce their burn-rate to less then their rate of revenue generation. Of course a down economy doesn't help auto-sales either, but that's regardless.

Now a few years ago if someone told me that I'd be seriously considering a Saturn as an alternative to a Honda Civic, I'd tell them they're an idiot. However, if they told me I'd be considering an Opel as a alternative, I'd be curious just how they suggest that come true being that Opel stopped being imported to the US in the late 70's. Now, I have to admit, that Astra is a great little car, and the Ecotec is one seriously impressive little 4-banger.

sorry, it's getting late and I have to end this seemingly endless rant. i hope someone takes the time to at least skim it over and see some helpful info in it.

:stupid:
thank you !

To add to this, the largest downfall of quailty in American cars right this moment (in my educated opinion) is the subcontracting of parts and assemblys to China. GM being the worst. Not the design or engineering of the cars themselves. They bid out some of these parts and the win goes to the lowest bidder, and yes some corporate corruption could be involved in the lack of quality control over those sub-assemblies, electronics, and other parts.

[markmdz89hatch]

...and now, my very own senator, one Mr.Christopher Dodd (I'm in CT, and he's a CT senator) gets the bonehead of the year award for calling out Wagner and saying that he's got to be fired, and that'll save GM. OK Mr. I'm a politician and wouldn't be able to run a dry-cleaner, let alone a multi-billion dollar automotive giant, but I'll call Wagner a moron and put his head on the chopping block.

I agree with Cord, Epic, Roo, and anyone else in that camp. It's extremely difficult to call any car American, British, Japanese, etc because all of them are a congolmerate of parts, brains, design, etc from all corners of the world.

As pointed out Holden (sorry, in a previous post I mistakenly said Vauxhaull in AU) is a great car in AU. Opel makes superb chassis'. Daewoo is a great Korean brand for what it is. All are GM owned. So why not use what works, what has good quality, what has a proven track record for quality and reliability, and employ that for use in a Chevy or Caddy, etc. Great idea. Guess who's at least partially to thank for that?: Wagner. Go ahead Dodd, use that in your argument for his removal too.

Close down some friggin dealerships already. Sometimes you have to lose a few to save a many. Sound like a familiar idea? ...that's because it's true. It's not pretty, but it's reality.

Are the executive's high salaries to blame? NO. They may make 6-10 million a year, but to put it in perspective, GM has a burn rate well north of 13 BILLION per month. How much of that 'burn' is carrying dealerships that haven't sold a car in a month? A good healthy portion of it.

Is it corporates fault that they have not forced the closure of dealerships to consolidate and lessen the burn? Partially, but to reiterate, the labor contracts that are so burdening and expensive (which are not as apparent in non-US markets) are doing a great job of keeping those much-needed changes from happening because they need to protect Jeffy's Podunk Chevy dealer from closing because they need to keep paying Jeffy, his 2 sons that are also 'salesmen', and every other 'salesman' they have working for them only to play solitaire and IM their buddies all day because they haven't had a customer, let alone sold a car, in 3 weeks.

Fire them, close the dealership, sell the building and/or cancel the ground lease. Let Jeffy, his 2 sons, and the handful of others actually get a job where they have to work (God forbid) and stop the bleed from that dealership.

[2oodoor]

I am misunderstanding this dealership thing. I thought those were franchised and privately owned, or a least a lot of them are. (no pun, lol)
The largest GM dealer in the southeast US folded just two months ago, for a variety of reasons, and that speaks volumes. Bill Heard Chevy, is being sued by the State of Georgia for fraud, but beside that they saw the writing on the wall. They had huge inventories, and it was my understanding that the parent company does set limitations on stock for dealerships they control.
It seems to me that the Government buys a lot of these vehicles. Not enought to keep the plants going but I do know that back in the 80's Chrysler may have survived because of that;think of all the Dodge vans, trucks, Aries, Diplomats, Furys, blah blah blah that were on GSA contracts back then. You hardley saw a Fed in a Ford or Chevy in those days.

[markmdz89hatch]

they are franchised and privately owned, but the parent still has incentives to dealerships, floats their overhead expenses, and floats the cost of the vehicles to the dealerships to give them stock.

The only reason there's a knock on the fed's door right now is because of the tightening of credit. GM has had an ongoing problem of spending way more then they need to, but when the economy was booming, they were taking in enough revenue to cover their over inflated expenses. Now that things are tightening up, they're not selling the volume they use to. ...which requires them to dip into their credit lines for coverage. Trouble is, due to the economy consolidation we're in now, credit is tightening up heavily. Which includes credit extensions to GM. They've been dipping into credit lines for longer then any of us have been alive, but now that those lines have tightened up, they're having more and more trouble doing so.

The dealerships are not only protected by contracts, but by each state they're in. All states feel the need to protect their local small businesses, and as you stated, these are all privately owned franchised dealerships. ...that's where the state's desire to protect them comes in. Trouble is, the state protecting them, is making the parent have to float them even more, and without the option to force their closure. The state is not in favor of GM closing one of their dealerships because it'll put one of their 'small biz' owners out of biz.

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard-place.

...remember, that's just a piece of this though. We cannot forget the fact that labor contracts have 'negotiated' with GM that they pay the pensions, retirements, and benefits of their employees for life. Way beyond what even the government does for the majority of their employees. That's quite expensive too.

...and look at American Axle. Their uaw employees went on strike because they didn't want to take a pay-cut that American Axle wanted to hand down, which was essentially proposed as a way for them to keep their jobs. I'll take a cut as an alternative to losing my job. ...but Gettlefinger (UAW [a union] pres) said, NO, we'll keep them employed, and you'll keep them at their pay (even if it means you're guaranteed to lose your job in the long run).

Take a peek: http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/03/american_axle_strike_impact_wi.html

Trouble is, because there's also a contract stating AA's exclusivity with GM for a source for their axles, GM couldn't just say faak you AA, we're just going to go to your competitor to get our axles made.

...see where I'm going? Everyone wants to protect everyone, and no-one wants to take responsibility for themselves, nor take a haircut when it's needed for the better of everyone involved.

Check this 'lil tid bit out though: Suppose GM files bankruptcy. They get their extended debt liquidated, many of their contracts void, they are able to restructure as needed, and come back with a vengeance. ...but it'll strike such a blow to the american psyche that it may help cripple the economy a lil' mo'. Bankruptcy does not necessarily mean any of these three go away, although it can mean that. ...it also opens the door for a host of other problems that I don't want to get into.

My suggestion as a right-now solution for GM: Let the feds just extend them a loan, a credit line, whatever you might want to call it. ...but with a mandate that they get Gettlefinger to the table with Wagner to renegotiate these bs contracts in order to keep the doors open. ...then with the blessing from the fed's (because after all, now the feds have some skin in the game w/ GM), let GM evaluate and close or restructure, as necessary, the poorly performing or 'grandfathered in' dealerships without the fight from the dealerships represented state.

The fed's then, as an economic 'stimulation', should allow heavy tax breaks/incentives for new car purchases, and with GM's new-found clarity, and the price of oil just 'tanking' (pun intended) the larger vehicle inventories should start to move a little more. ...then just let the products sell themselves, as everyone can claim to be better then their competitor in some way/shape/or form. Then the fate of GM would be in the hands of the public's purchasing, which IMO is where it should be. ...not in the buracratic red tape that's choking on it's own stupidity.

[markmdz89hatch]

...shit, now this just got me started....

...also instead of Obama just doing the same 'economic stimulus' package of sending everyone a check, which was just done and didn't have the wide impact intended, why not just take a little less across the board.

What's that mean: That means that instead of taxing the snot out of local builders when they sell their house, just lower their cap gains tax so they can lower their price and still make the same profit. ...then on the other side, create a no real-estate tax for a year (or some other realized tax break) for potential home buyers as an incentive to go out there and start spending money again.

Credit lenders have already learned their lesson, and will continue to bleed as defaults rise hand in hand with unemployment, so they're not going to be making the same mistake again (at least not in the very near future).

Fact: Credit will be tougher to get. So you can't go into a real-estate deal with the mentality that if you don't have a penny, and only had your job for 3 months, that you can get a mortgage with no money down 100% financing. Not going to happen. Oh no, does that mean it's time for people to start making responsible financial decisions? Say it ain't so. It IS so.

BUT, I think that credit has tightened too much too fast, and they should still be lenient, but smart with their 'bending' of their 'good credit' rules just to keep the defaults low.

The tax breaks will allow the 'stimulus' without the fed's having to actually come out of pocket for anything, and could amount to a savings more proportional to each individual market rather then an 'everyone get a grand' plan. A thousand dollars to me may be only 37 cents to you, dependant on the cost of living, and median salary range where you are.

[redaztec]

Interesting read, though I had come across much of that data before.

I'll definitely agree that American cars, especially those in the last few years, have gotten way better than they ever were before.

However, at least some of them need to be better. For example, a friend of mine bought a new Cobalt in 05. By now, it's had many significant repairs including multiple steering racks. The suspension creaks, and the interior had already disintegrated a year or more ago (i.e. cheap paint flaking off, plastic bits breaking off, etc - looks way worse than the interior in my 19-year-old Accord).

My dad owned an Oldsmobile Intrigue, and before 65K miles he'd already gotten sick of fixing it and traded it in on a Honda.

I drive a few Dodges at work, and I've been impressed with how shoddy the build quality and engineering seem. The transmissions especially are terrible.

I have had pretty good experiences with Ford though - one friend of mine who is very hard on cars has a 5-year-old Focus, and despite having been crashed it is in much better condition than the above-mentioned Cobalt. My parents have also had an AWD Ford Aerostar for the last 14-15 years and it's never had a serious problem.

In the future, I would already consider a Ford product, and if GM and Chrysler keep improving their products, I'd consider theirs too. However, I won't be one of the first to jump the import-car ship. I need to see a lot of American cars surviving and surviving well for 10-15 years before I'll be willing to buy one. I do, however, hope I can someday buy an American car and feel the same confidence and pride as I do with my Hondas.

[2oodoor]

In the future, I would already consider a Ford product, and if GM and Chrysler keep improving their products, I'd consider theirs too. However, I won't be one of the first to jump the import-car ship. I need to see a lot of American cars surviving and surviving well for 10-15 years before I'll be willing to buy one. I do, however, hope I can someday buy an American car and feel the same confidence and pride as I do with my Hondas.
I concour
There are several American made models out there now (post 1996) that are going well beyond 200,000 miles with very few problems. Now compared to 1986, where you were lucky to get 87,000 before a major failure occured, that is significant improvment. One that comes to mind right off since I maintain them and have first hand experience, is the Ford Crown Victoria. The base mechanicals of that car can be found all across the Ford product line with Mustangs, F-series, Econoline, just to name a few. All of those are pretty durable vehicles. Now Mustangs, pick and choose... there were rental fleets and many were abused as a children... :thumbdn:
GM had many models that could, a few have, make it in that same field of vehicles. The thing that happened with those is the dam intake manifolds leaking. I have a colleague who works for JB BYRYDER a large used car franchise. According to him, GM intakes have kept those Byryder mechanics employed the past ten years. Byryder swoops them up by the lot and refurbishs them for resale, that is if a rod didn't get bent from uncompressable water. It is amazing to me all the different engines by GM had this exact same problem, add to that the TCC modules inside the transmissions that consistantly failed... again all types of models fwd and rwd. 5.7L, 3.0L,3.8L
For anyone here to without the uncertainty of hear say or quoting articles just like the first post in this thread, tell us how bad American made cars are in the past ten years, first you would have had to been able to afford to buy one during that period. Second you would have had to own it till it was paid off.
I for one have purchased several with over 100K miles on them, USED Vehicles, and was quite please overall with them. Flame me if you want, as I take my usual "devil's advocate" position in this discussion, but I speak from experience. I still love my 86 Accords ...20 something year old Hondas, and enjoy them as some of the best cars I have ever been in contact with.:rockon:

[Vanilla Sky]

One thing with cars that have a lot of miles on them is that a lot of the issues have been fixed. The GM intake leak was fixed with a better gasket. It can also be pre-emptively remedied by changing out the Dex-Cool.

Any poorly built examples of any given car are likely to have been written off by owners that just get tired of them.

One thing I'm seeing is that American cars are really starting to do better. As stated before, there isn't one Big 3 car that's on my list of cars right now. The Vibe is a slight possibility, but the other (Caliber) is out for sure. A lot of people buy their second (and most other subsequent) cars from the manufacturer that built their first, provided that the experience was positive. The two most important cars a company can build are their halo car and an econobox.

[stat1K]

i have never personally owned an american car. i have however driven a few.

i drove a 1999 s10 - it was 5 years old when i drove it with nearly 60k on it. the ignition had faulty wiring which would cause it to turn off while i was driving. this would in turn lock the steering wheel while driving. happened to me once on the freeway. that was enough right there for me to never want a chevy.

i drove a 1999 ford taurus. other than the fact that they shoved way to big of a motor in the bay without the necessary suspension to keep the thing aligned it did very well. we put 120k on that car in 6 years then sold it for 2700... yeah 2700 for a 6 year old car... that was above the blue book. that's another problem i have...

i drove a 2000 ford f150 xlt single cab sport... this is the best ford product i have ever encountered. 100K+ with no major repairs PERIOD. worst part was when my dad had to buy tires for the 17" wheels.

this is the small list of american cars i have driven for extended periods of time. i have to say that i for one, like many of you, appreciate sub compacts w/ four cylinders. i haven't seen anything from the american cars in that category in quite some time.

the dodge neon? the ford focus? the cobalt/cavalier?

i would not even consider any of those.

however, i would not consider the new civics anymore because of the size... they are way too big. they are bigger than our old accords by a long shot. i park my 1990 civic sedan next to a 2008 civic sedan every day. the thing is about 1 foot longer and 1 foot taller than my car. it's crazy big for what it's supposed to be. also the prices have become outrageous. for my 2008 fit here in arizona the lowest you can find one is about 16k before tax title and tag. that's a lot... i paid 17.6 out the door on it and i still feel that was too much but we needed a nice safe car for my wife to commute in.

i think the point of this survey was to attempt to sway people back towards the american car companies... unfortunately for them, a lot of us grew up in a time when all our parents did was buy them, realize how shitty they were, trade them in for an import. in my case it was a 1985 honda accord that my father purchased new when my brother was born. i grew up with that car and it's what i came to know and love.

but when it comes to the question of should we help them or not i will still say that the answer is probably yes we should help them. i heard senator chuck schumer say something interesting the other day on npr and that was that we don't hear about the japanese or german companies much in the terms of gov't help. he said that it's pretty obvious that their companies are recieving funding from their governments to help in this troubled time as well. this is because they recognize the significance that these manufacturing bases carry when it comes their countries and their people.

someone said something about hard headed approach. i will say this now like i have many other times.

I WILL ONLY BUY HONDAS. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.

[markmdz89hatch]

do yourself a favor and take a peek at the Saturn Astra. Very well built car. Not loaded with bells and whistles, but good basic transportation.

[rfiks]

Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...



And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific :rolleyes:


At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...
:rockon:fuck yea-u got 1?:rockon:

[Demon1024]

^^^ I concour^^^^
Most people do not expect to find parts for Honda (your list) there anyway.
You should be selling filters, belts, cv axles, brake parts once in a while, but that would be about it.

don't forget alternators!

[markmdz89hatch]

Gettlefinger needs to step off his soapbox and look himself in the mirror and realize that he's pissing in the wind.

[lostforawhile]

i just fixed my stepdaughters 96 corsica, what a piece of shit, i drove it around the block to check the brakes and have no desire to ever drive it again. I mean stuff is breaking that shouldn't be breaking on a car of this age. already leaks oil,antifreeze,power steering fluid, transmission fluid, smokes, most of the electrical stuff is shot,i sit in the seat and sink. i couldn't even see what gear i was in because the indicator crap was broke. I mean my wifes 98 civic has problems,but it's like a benze compared to this piece of shit. cars like this are why GM is broke. reminds me of a K car. This is a 96,why does it feel like i'm driving a car from the 70's? I mean the car is plain out but ass ugly inside. why in the hell was GM still putting the headlight switch on the dash in 96? almost everyone has it on the end of the turn signal lever now. it's almost universal. I'm not concerned where a car is made, if they made a car that is as decent as these 3geez after 22 years, I would buy one,but as long as they make poorly engineered poorly made cars, I have no reason to buy one. Does anyone think too, that the fact that these union workers are making about 55 percent more then the average wage in this country, and it's almost impossible to get fired if you are in the union, do you think a lot of these wiorkers really give a crap about what comes down the line and if it's right? I know some of them do, but if your job is guaranteed and you are making an assload of money, where is your incentive to really do your best on that car? so it's fucked up,you get paid the same thing anyway. It's the communism theory, everyone gets the same regardless, so no has any incentive to do any better.

[rfiks]

mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYPsMEwI0&feature=channel_page

[cubert]

mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYPsMEwI0&feature=channel_page



Oh Em gEE...



YoU FounDs Da YoUToobZ vId oF Da Rx-7 BeEtIngZ dA MuStANG....MuSt MeAnz Da MUstAng Is JunKz...

[A18A]

omgwtfnowai

[Ichiban]

Good thing Mazda and Ford are the same thing in a lot of cases...

[rfiks]

Oh Em gEE...



YoU FounDs Da YoUToobZ vId oF Da Rx-7 BeEtIngZ dA MuStANG....MuSt MeAnz Da MUstAng Is JunKz...:rly:YA IT DUZ! and "wrAstling" is 4 phagz and people who actually enjoy recieving the drive by bukakke on a daily basis- b4 and after YOUR crappy day at your crappy job getting crappy pay and getting pushed around by sum1 whos more of a squre than u are. get off my sac! :madflip:i didnt personaly insult n e 1. and so what if i h8 stangs and gm so what, u like recieving the daily bukakke and "wrAstling. and i like chix and HONDAs, so to each his own.

[Civic Accord Honda]

i just fixed my stepdaughters 96 corsica, what a piece of shit, i drove it around the block to check the brakes and have no desire to ever drive it again. I mean stuff is breaking that shouldn't be breaking on a car of this age. already leaks oil,antifreeze,power steering fluid, transmission fluid, smokes, most of the electrical stuff is shot,i sit in the seat and sink. i couldn't even see what gear i was in because the indicator crap was broke. I mean my wifes 98 civic has problems,but it's like a benze compared to this piece of shit. cars like this are why GM is broke. reminds me of a K car. This is a 96,why does it feel like i'm driving a car from the 70's? I mean the car is plain out but ass ugly inside. why in the hell was GM still putting the headlight switch on the dash in 96? almost everyone has it on the end of the turn signal lever now. it's almost universal. I'm not concerned where a car is made, if they made a car that is as decent as these 3geez after 22 years, I would buy one,but as long as they make poorly engineered poorly made cars, I have no reason to buy one. Does anyone think too, that the fact that these union workers are making about 55 percent more then the average wage in this country, and it's almost impossible to get fired if you are in the union, do you think a lot of these wiorkers really give a crap about what comes down the line and if it's right? I know some of them do, but if your job is guaranteed and you are making an assload of money, where is your incentive to really do your best on that car? so it's fucked up,you get paid the same thing anyway. It's the communism theory, everyone gets the same regardless, so no has any incentive to do any better.


i feel your pain about gm cars cant stand working on them aswell


mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYPsMEwI0&feature=channel_page
you sir fail

:rly:YA IT DUZ! and "wrAstling" is 4 phagz and people who actually enjoy recieving the drive by bukakke on a daily basis- b4 and after YOUR crappy day at your crappy job getting crappy pay and getting pushed around by sum1 whos more of a squre than u are. get off my sac! :madflip:i didnt personaly insult n e 1. and so what if i h8 stangs and gm so what, u like recieving the daily bukakke and "wrAstling. and i like chix and HONDAs, so to each his own.
you just failed some more

[codyJDM]

I have just consumed a hearty serving of fail

lolwut

[cubert]

bwahahaha..



and now we resort to insulting something we know nothing about, and gay jokes



my job is done here :kekeke:

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, but unfortunately mine just started. Sunavaabitch!

Ok guys (not singling anyone out here) let's try and salvage this used-to-be good thread and keep the name calling, flaming, and IM shorthand to a minimum.

[2drSE-i]

Ford actually owns mazda...

[cubert]

Ok, but unfortunately mine just started. Sunavaabitch!

Ok guys (not singling anyone out here) let's try and salvage this used-to-be good thread and keep the name calling, flaming, and IM shorthand to a minimum.


Sorry bout that, Mark..couldnt resist :lol:


Ford actually owns mazda...


Yup...the 2.0 in my mums 626 is the same motor as the Ford Probe.

[gp02a0083]

Ford actually owns mazda...

your telling me you never saw mazda's with motorcraft stuff on them? hell i remember working on a few older rx-7's that had motorcraft stuff under the hood

[Ichiban]

:rly:YA IT DUZ! get off my sac! :madflip:

But it's so nice and warm.

[cubert]

But it's so nice and warm.


:rofl:

[Vanilla Sky]

Ford doesn't own Mazda. Forn owns controlling stake, but not outright.

The engine in the Probe was a Mazda developed engine. It was also used in the MX6, and a smaller displacement version was used in the MX3.

[2drSE-i]

Did a little reading and your right, Ford currently only owns 40% of the company and is currently looking to sell half of it.

[labeledsk8r]

Yup...the 2.0 in my mums 626 is the same motor as the Ford Probe.

its built on the same frame as the probe aswell.. well actully its the other way around its the mazda frame that they built the probe on

[Vanilla Sky]

Yup, the Probe, MX6 and 626 are all sister cars. The Probe is a bit softer than the MX6. The 626 is an Accord competitor, so of course it's going to be a bit softer feeling. The 626 is a car on my short list of cars to buy my wife under $5000.

[MessyHonda]

new mazda engines are not that good...my uncle has worked for mazda for 15 years and i always see them replacing the engines of cars.