SUPER Day!

[Tdurr]

So got the cam in today! then after i got everything checked and drove off into the sunset, i got in it and hit 2nd(first pulled great!) engine lost all power and i pull over. check a few things blah blah blah, a hour and a half later, i pull the valve cover off and then find half of my valve keeper floating in the oil.:rocket::hmph::madflip::madflip::mad::mad::bur n::burn::banghead::banghead:

soo now i dono wut to do, this was my only car and i have no job... fucking super.
Ill have pics of said keeper that i pulled out...

[lostforawhile]

what happened? maby someone on here is near you and can help you,i hate this for you,after being so careful. are you talking about the valve retainers? did they all come off? what did you adjust or remove?

[Tdurr]

yea the valve retainers, just one intake on #1.
im pissed and sad... and dono wut to do...

I only touched things involved with the new camshaft, via haynes manual. I read over it 5 times and had it next to me the whole time, then even had a teacher watch over my shoulder the whole time, and if i wasnt working on it the car was locked up.

[lostforawhile]

yea the valve retainers, just one intake on #1.
im pissed and sad... and dono wut to do...

I only touched things involved with the new camshaft, via haynes manual. I read over it 5 times and had it next to me the whole time, then even had a teacher watch over my shoulder the whole time, and if i wasnt working on it the car was locked up.
is the valve ok? or is it bent? if it's not bent, turn the crank until the valve is most of the way up and use a valve spring compressor and put on a new retainer. if you get it most of the way on on that cyl, use a rubber band to hold the valve all the way up,lower the piston some,now feed some nylon rope into that cyl ,leave the end hanging out, now bring the piston up a little more until you feel some pressure on the rope, this will hold up the valve while you compress the spring and install a new retainer. see if someone on here will send you a spare retainer from an extra bad cyl head or something.

[Tdurr]

^^ yea ill bet taking it to the shop tomorrow and hope it isnt bent. It really doesn't look bent.

how much do u think a new valve retainer is? Id just be happy getting a new one.

[Rendon LX-i]

oh man dark. that sucks. not much at all.

[Tdurr]

yup, it blows monkey dick.

[2ndGenGuy]

What cam profile was that you wound up getting?

[rjudgey]

valve retainer came off, well to be honest it would be impossible to do this unless you have a broken spring, the only scenario i can think off is that you revved it so high and hard that the valves floated for a split second and the valve spanked a piston the shock of which caused the collet in the retainer to come off. Is the rocker tappet still the same clearance if it is the valve isn't bent then what you need is a compressor and then a tool to fit into the spark plug hole, this will compress the piston and valve allowing you to push down on the retainer with a socket and try and pop the other retainer that came out back in.

But if the clearance of the tappet on the rocker has increased compared to the others then the valve is definately bent may only be a little bit but you'll loose compression and the head will need to come off and new valve put in. I'm sure someone will have a spare you can have. If you decide to stick with that cam i would suggest getting some carbed 2nd gen prelude valve springs from a non CVCC head 85-87 are good with them in there instead they are great for high revving will take 8k rpm no problems. Some A20 engines have quite weak springs fine for stock engine but anything more higher or quicker revving valve float is pretty easy to occur especially with a 272 degree cam or higher.

Another thing maybe you had your valve timing off a little and thats whats made things worse by the sound of you saying you had very little low end power with your cam and rest of the engine staying stock should be ok low end i know my prelude is and thats only a 1.8 not 2.0 very driveable low end and just goes mad when you hit 3.5k to 7.5k rpm.

[mushroom_toy]

Damn Tim sorry man, I know youve been waiting for this for a while....best of luck to getting it fixed and if you need any of my help let me know.

[rjudgey]

hmm just had a thought maybe if you get a big enough metal bar through the plug hole and get it underneath the valve you could use that to hold it in place enough so that you can push down on the valve spring and try and pop the retainer back in place. I find it very hard to believe it just came out by itself something must have happened to it for it to come out it's just not possible i've used these honda retainers on all my builds and they have all done 8k rpm and even 10k rpm when my mate miss shifted a few times by accident and never had any pop off or anything else break the springs were beefed up a little but with stock retainers and collets.

[mushroom_toy]

^ I wouldnt use a metal bar....I would just use some rope. Ive used rope before when i was replacing my valve stem seals and it works fine.

[2oodoor]

were the tappet clearances readjusted after the cam was installed? If so what were they set at? any rockers damaged

[gp02a0083]

easiest way that ive done valve seals on a car without a special retainer tool, i made a air line piece that i put in place of the spark plug, although i do also use rubber bands and twine so that the valve doesn't drop

[LX-incredible]

The rocker may have wondered off of the valve stem, either from a missing or misplaced spring/spacer on the rocker arm shaft, or it got pushed off to the side during reassembly. Check that everything is in its proper place.

http://www.thehondapartsstore.com/herson/jsp/catimgs/13sg70_e12.gif

If this is the case, I highly doubt you bent a valve.

[lostforawhile]

easiest way that ive done valve seals on a car without a special retainer tool, i made a air line piece that i put in place of the spark plug, although i do also use rubber bands and twine so that the valve doesn't drop
if you don't want to use air the rope trick works like a charm. you put it in with the piston just below tdc then bring the piston up until it puts pressure on the rope, the rope won't hurt anything in there or cause any scratches,

[Tdurr]

Blah, ill have to look to see if the spring broke, it was dark when i found the retainer and i was pissed so i just closed the hood and pushed it in a gas station parking lot. But yea i had a 272 cam i just put in. I readjusted the valves my self, checked 3 times, and once i started it up, i had a teacher listen to the car and he gave me the okay.

I would guess i was at 6.5 6.8k somewhere in that range, ive done it before, no prob with the stock cam. I really dono how this happened.

If worse comes to worse, and the valve is bent and piston is fine, I might go to the JY, pull a head, get a few valves and prelude springs. Hopefully ill be selling some more tools this week to get some cash and ill spend all day monday working on it. I really need a car...

Luke u have a phone?
Thanks for all the words ppl.. I'm still hoping for the best.
Edit: To lxi, im pretty sure a rocker arm didnt wander, i saw them shift when i had the whole assembly off and made sure they were on point. Im ocd when it comes to working on parts of cars you cant fuck up. If i dont like it i wont do it at all.

Edit #2: So i checked Rock auto for prices and a valve and new springs is like 20 bucks before shipping, wut a bitch if 20bucks is wuts fucked up...

[mushroom_toy]

Blah, ill have to look to see if the spring broke, it was dark when i found the retainer and i was pissed so i just closed the hood and pushed it in a gas station parking lot. But yea i had a 272 cam i just put in. I readjusted the valves my self, checked 3 times, and once i started it up, i had a teacher listen to the car and he gave me the okay.

I would guess i was at 6.5 6.8k somewhere in that range, ive done it before, no prob with the stock cam. I really dono how this happened.

If worse comes to worse, and the valve is bent and piston is fine, I might go to the JY, pull a head, get a few valves and prelude springs. Hopefully ill be selling some more tools this week to get some cash and ill spend all day monday working on it. I really need a car...

Luke u have a phone?
Thanks for all the words ppl.. I'm still hoping for the best.
Edit: To lxi, im pretty sure a rocker arm didnt wander, i saw them shift when i had the whole assembly off and made sure they were on point. Im ocd when it comes to working on parts of cars you cant fuck up. If i dont like it i wont do it at all.

Edit #2: So i checked Rock auto for prices and a valve and new springs is like 20 bucks before shipping, wut a bitch if 20bucks is wuts fucked up...

Thought I gave you my card lol. Anyway I pmed you my number. I have a feeling you wont find the prelude springs....Ive looked. XD Youll find plenty of a20s though if you need a valve.

[gp02a0083]

if you don't want to use air the rope trick works like a charm. you put it in with the piston just below tdc then bring the piston up until it puts pressure on the rope, the rope won't hurt anything in there or cause any scratches,

just sayin its easy to use and it worked great for me

[2oodoor]

it is possible some of the keepers moved a bit during the assembly and adjusting process.
Another way of saying what happened could be "dropped a valve" (?) which is a result of a high rev & valve float.
I hope you dont have too much damage.

there are plenty of A18 here for those springs....

[lostforawhile]

Thought I gave you my card lol. Anyway I pmed you my number. I have a feeling you wont find the prelude springs....Ive looked. XD Youll find plenty of a20s though if you need a valve.exactly which prelude springs are those? what year? are they oem? we have a great engine building shop here that can get most anything, i'm going to check into a set of those.

[Tdurr]

sooo i looked today, was quick cuz i had to sell some more tools, and it looked like the valve is still all the way up.... so I'm assuming its either slightly bent or full blown fucked. Ill find out tomorrow for sure. A small mirror + flash light will let me know wuts up....

[mushroom_toy]

Good deal. Hopefully nothing major happened.

[Rendon LX-i]

How things coming bro. you get it torn apart again.

[Tdurr]

Didnt get anything torn apart, just got it pulled to the shop. Sat at a gas station for 2 days lol.

[Rendon LX-i]

damn that sucks

[Tdurr]

pretty much, had to get pulled on by the tiedowns on the front under the fog light holes and 2 chains. on a 2 lane road with a good amount of traffic. Thankfully there was a emergency lane in the middle that we got to ride in...

[Tdurr]

Bent Valve. I fail. Help me find parts to replace while i got the head off.

[lostforawhile]

Bent Valve. I fail. Help me find parts to replace while i got the head off.i would put something in your signature with large letters, or start a post,there are a lot of people on here with extra pieces and parts floating around.

[mushroom_toy]

Tim...junkyard.

[Tdurr]

Mos deff a jy, but question is, how the fuck am i getting to a good one lol.
and ill put up a quick add in the sig.
BTW, good headgaskets(for turbo later), the a18 springs if u can find them at a jy, and anything else u can think of, just tell me, but i do have limited funds.

[mushroom_toy]

Well if you can find a way to my house one day during the week we can ride to a local junkyard and you cn probably get the valves for like a couple bucks plus anything else youll need. You could bring your head and we could install em and get em ready to go. I know you have school and all....but you should take a day off haha.

[Tdurr]

lol if i can get a ride ill see bout doing it friday, wut i want is to put it all together at school, just bring the parts cuz taking the head all the way out would be a bitch....

pm me on ia...when it gets back up lol...

[mushroom_toy]

Alright I will.

[Tdurr]

update! got the head off today, and the valve makes kind of a S shape lol.. it smacked the piston good, put a lil nick in it... hopefully by wed, ill be putting everything back together....

[markmdz89hatch]

you have a new valve yet?

...and I was just going to post that you probably fukd the piston too if you bent the valve. After all, it's the piston smacking the valve that caused it to bend.

check all other valves b/c if one touched down, there's a chance the others could have as well, but not extremely likely b/c that's the only one that lost its retainer.

Lemme know if you don't have the valve yet. I have an extra head that I was going to send to a machine shop, but I can pull a valve or two for you and just send them to you. I hate to know that someone's DD is jacked up and they don't have any way of getting anywhere.

[lostforawhile]

update! got the head off today, and the valve makes kind of a S shape lol.. it smacked the piston good, put a lil nick in it... hopefully by wed, ill be putting everything back together....smooth out that nick so it doesn't have any sharp edges, or it could form hot spots and cause detonation. any kind of nick or gouge in the piston is bad because carbon tends to collect in them and this is what causes the hot spots. you end up with a glowing piece of carbon in there that ignites the fuel before it's supposed to. the sharp edges on that nick will get hotter then the rest of the piston, because they won't dissapate heat as well.

[Tdurr]

you have a new valve yet?

...and I was just going to post that you probably fukd the piston too if you bent the valve. After all, it's the piston smacking the valve that caused it to bend.

check all other valves b/c if one touched down, there's a chance the others could have as well, but not extremely likely b/c that's the only one that lost its retainer.

Lemme know if you don't have the valve yet. I have an extra head that I was going to send to a machine shop, but I can pull a valve or two for you and just send them to you. I hate to know that someone's DD is jacked up and they don't have any way of getting anywhere.


Thanks for the offer, but im just going to pick up one from autozone, 10bucks, meh, I deff am gonna be checking the other valves tho.



smooth out that nick so it doesn't have any sharp edges, or it could form hot spots and cause detonation. any kind of nick or gouge in the piston is bad because carbon tends to collect in them and this is what causes the hot spots. you end up with a glowing piece of carbon in there that ignites the fuel before it's supposed to. the sharp edges on that nick will get hotter then the rest of the piston, because they won't dissapate heat as well.

Deff was gonna do that, the lil cut out for the valve in the piston did its job of not smacking the valve and breaking it in half lol. Ill see if i can upload the cell phone pics soon...

also, now that i got the head off i can say that the engine looks brand new still!! only 75xx miles on the rebuild + overbore...

[lostforawhile]

Thanks for the offer, but im just going to pick up one from autozone, 10bucks, meh, I deff am gonna be checking the other valves tho.




Deff was gonna do that, the lil cut out for the valve in the piston did its job of not smacking the valve and breaking it in half lol. Ill see if i can upload the cell phone pics soon...

also, now that i got the head off i can say that the engine looks brand new still!! only 75xx miles on the rebuild + overbore...trying to figure out how it hit, broke a timing belt at like 6000 rpm and it did nothing whatsoever to the engine. when i put new stem seals on, i was able to drop the valve all the way to the retainer grove before it touched the piston, that was with the piston at tdc. the valves are never that far down.

[Tdurr]

^^ the valve retainer came off and im guessing the valve fell down some....at 6-6.5k... still not sure how... thats why im replacing the intake retainers on the #1 to be sure it wont happen again...

[Tdurr]

Udate wit pics!!

After being like This for a while,
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/sad.jpg



i got the head off and found this:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/bent.jpg
This thing, did this:


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/piston2.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/piston1.jpg

and when its goes back together, im adding this:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/nawz.jpg

[mushroom_toy]

Damn so now you need a new piston too. That blows donkey balls.

[Tdurr]

^^ no i dont.... lol ziz wheel son...

[2drSE-i]

i think the valve may have hit the piston....

[lostforawhile]

is that a chunk out of the edge of the piston? you need a piston. it's weak there now and eventually it's going to break. go ahead and add the nos i want to see the remains of that piston after it melts.

[89sei89dx]

im about to put on delta 272 cam. what do i do with the valve springs . i got a lil guage what are they supposed to be set at after new upgraded cam

[Hauntd ca3]

i think the valve may have hit the piston....

just maybe eh!
gotta wonder hat the valve guide looks like as well.
i'd use the opportunity to rebuild myself

[Tdurr]

it nicked it, the pistons have the lil grove for the valves so they wont hit eif timing is off, but it dropped some and hit the spot, its no biggie. Looks worse cuz of the crappy camera.

[markmdz89hatch]

i'm with everyone else in saying that the guides and piston might just be shot. that piston does have a clear mark where the valve bent in and kept tapping it. is the bowl all marked up from the edge of the valve banging it?

[mushroom_toy]

Tim I would go ahead and replace the piston. I know its not what you want to hear, but i would do it as a precautionary measure. You know Im cheap and if I cam upon a piston like that I would probably replace it.

[2oodoor]

^^^abosolutley, cheap insurance dude
you could have damage under the piston, as well as rod. I would pull that oil pan just to inspect that piston and rod and slap a new piston and all the rod bearings in it. Not a lot of money involved there and you have access to a lift so that wil be easy breezy.
On the other hand you can fnd these motors in the JY with minor issues , mostly head gaskets blown.. for $100 so if you want to put this one together and spray it scatter it.. no big loss except what you are putting into it this month.

[markmdz89hatch]

...or if you're real lucky, and get a spray'n'pop, you might have a rod claim ownership of your hood after it makes its own exit from the side of the block.

[Tdurr]

i'm with everyone else in saying that the guides and piston might just be shot. that piston does have a clear mark where the valve bent in and kept tapping it. is the bowl all marked up from the edge of the valve banging it?
it has a clear mark, but you can clearly see that it only hit 2-3 times, first time was the worst(where the grove for the valve is), a half inch or so it hit once/twice and kinda nicked it. I will be getting advice form someone who knows his shit..


Tim I would go ahead and replace the piston. I know its not what you want to hear, but i would do it as a precautionary measure. You know Im cheap and if I cam upon a piston like that I would probably replace it.
ugg... :chainsaw:


^^^abosolutley, cheap insurance dude
you could have damage under the piston, as well as rod. I would pull that oil pan just to inspect that piston and rod and slap a new piston and all the rod bearings in it. Not a lot of money involved there and you have access to a lift so that wil be easy breezy.

yea i would love to do that, but I have NO funds and my time on the lift has expired really. When i said i had 100, thats all i got, i cant even bum gas money from the rents, nor do i have a job, shit is hard right now. The shop is at my school and I'm really not supposed to be working on my car if im not making the shop money...

fuck.. ill talk to someone tomorrow bout this.. :(

[russiankid]

I think your best bet right now is to borrow money from some friends, go to the junkyard and start testing motors for compression. Find the best one and swap it in so you have a DD.

[markmdz89hatch]

seriously man, tell me what parts you need, and I'll have them in a box and on their way to you on Friday. That's the soonest I can get them boxed and shipped as it's the earliest I can get to my parts. ...but if it's not just a valve, but a piston you need, just say the word.

It can also be argued that once you get touchdown of a valve to piston, that you should replace the wrist-pin and bearings too because you could have put too much stress on them in the process. If you need bearings, pins, etc, let me know. I'm not here to hand out parts to the world, but in severe cases like this, it's the least I could do because I'm not down there to lend a hand turning wrenches.

[lostforawhile]

it has a clear mark, but you can clearly see that it only hit 2-3 times, first time was the worst(where the grove for the valve is), a half inch or so it hit once/twice and kinda nicked it. I will be getting advice form someone who knows his shit..


ugg... :chainsaw:



yea i would love to do that, but I have NO funds and my time on the lift has expired really. When i said i had 100, thats all i got, i cant even bum gas money from the rents, nor do i have a job, shit is hard right now. The shop is at my school and I'm really not supposed to be working on my car if im not making the shop money...

fuck.. ill talk to someone tomorrow bout this.. :(did you figure out why it completly quit running after this? usually it will run on three cylinders, better do a compression check. usually when it quits at high rpm all of the sudden after eating a valve,thats a very bad thing. sort of like the "non castrol" engine in the castrol commercial. and if you want to talk to people who know their shit,the collective knowledge on this site is far supirior to the average mechanic you are going to find.

[cubert]

and if you want to talk to people who know their shit,the collective knowledge on this site is far supirior to the average mechanic you are going to find.


exactly what I was thinking...


You cant rush this thing back together...because youll be in the same position when the thing blows again...

[Tdurr]

It started up fine and wut not but it wouldnt run for any lenght of time over 5 sec without dieing. BUt the valve was bent and open, so after i attempeted to start it a fews times i smelled fuel and each cylender was flooded. I was planning on doing a compression test before i started it anyways so dont gotta worry about that.

um. If you really want to help me out markmz, i would say what ever u really think was needed to keep it prob free. But i did decided last night that once i get a job im going to save up for a performance good pistons and rods, and all that jazz.
g2g ill update/pm ppl later...

[Tdurr]

Oh yea, i forgot to say i have a 20 overbore.... so jy piston is a no go....

[markmdz89hatch]

ah shit. ...so you're still welcome to the valve(s), but given the fact that you have a .20 overbore, I can assume those are aftermarket pistons, so you're outta luck there.

I would honestly suggest hitting up the j/y or a local member for a long block and just rip yours out, dump the new one in, and go. I expect that would be your quickest way to get back on the road.

[Tdurr]

Im just gonna run it, and if its really messed up bad, Ill take it off the road, pull the motor, get a crx from a friend for cheap, and then save up for some serious mods...
here are some simi better pics of the piston(cell phone)
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/smack2.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/smack1.jpg

Im gonna make a thread bout the strut bar...

[markmdz89hatch]

Im just gonna run it, and if its really messed up bad, Ill take it off the road, pull the motor, get a crx from a friend for cheap, and then save up for some serious mods...
here are some simi better pics of the piston(cell phone)

Im gonna make a thread bout the strut bar...

what strut bar?

[lostforawhile]

if you are being offered free parts ,take the parts get rid of the bad piston while it's apart and fix it.

[Tdurr]

^^ i got a 20 overbore....


what strut bar?
and this one http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?p=926197#post926197

[mushroom_toy]

Doesnt look as bad as I though....just make absolute sure there is no part of the piston sticking up. Also you also know you might lose some compression on that cyl.

[Tdurr]

^^ yea its not THAT bad. I already took a ziz wheel/brillo pad to it , nothing is sticking up. And i dont mind losing compression, Im gonna just save up for a super sayon(lol DBZ) rebuild.

[2oodoor]

ahh ,20 overbore, that puts a totally different factor in diagnoseseses . lol
IMO it pushes the gamble futher both ways good and bad...
Hope it works out as you planned, just try to rememeber you stop making horsepower around 6.5k rpm (on average) with these and the only point in taking to redline is to have the powerband ready for the next gear, depending on that and the rest of the car you may not even need to rev it high to go fast.

[Tdurr]

^^ yea i usually dont go past 6.3k.... but i aim for 6-6.2k.
I kno its a gamble, but i dont have too much fear in it. I acutally think i lost a valve ajustment screw cuz of the younger dumbass kids touching shit.

[Tdurr]

update:
i got the head on minus the cam, everything else is hooked up. So tomorrow i should be getting started.... ill let u folks kno how it goes....

[2oodoor]

yeah if you have an adjustment screw that is super easy to turn you may want some thread locker on it.


also when you are adjusting the valves, make sure you are looking at it in a 90 degree angle = and not >

[Tdurr]

^^ looking at wut? you use a feeler gauge...

btw ITS ALIVE! and running rich. 2 clips on the thermostat broke, so i gotta rig those cuz im going on a trip tomorrow...

[2oodoor]

what I mean is, like at .007 using the feeler guage, have plenty of light and make sure when you drag the gauge across there it is at a ninty so when you feel the drag of the guage it is going squarely into the gap. The light is for seeing that you are in the gap not at an angle. make sense?
It is an EASY mistake to make, that is why they make 45 degree angle feeler guages which are really hard to find these days, most of the are just streight blades.

[Tdurr]

^^ wuts really funny is i used some feeler gauges from my teacher and he has been in the auto game for 30 years and had 45degree gauges. Showed me how to do it and he was like "damn, you did a really good job." can still hear the valves tick a lil bit, but ill go back in a week or two and re check them.

[2oodoor]

egg celll ant :wave: