Opinions and Information on Swaps

[ZeroLux]

Ok, now I know this probably isn't the place to be asking but I'll give it a go anyway. Right now I have an '89 Accord LX-i that is really not wowing me. It's all stock, A20A3, running condition, automatic, slow as balls. The engine has just over 243600 miles on it and seems to be getting worse every day. I don't know exactly what the issue with it is, it just sucks.

The car itself is in great shape, interior is almost like new right down to the stock radio. Sunroof does not leak and works perfect, all accessories are good. What I am thinking about doing is instead of continuing to fight with this A20- scrapping it and going for a full engine swap. I have been doing a lot of reading online to see what my options are but I am finding it very hard to narrow down what I can do that WON'T require a buttload of fab/wiring/headaches.

I understand the B20 is an option but it seems like everywhere I look people are referencing the JDM models and it also seems like there are a ton of technicalities when mixing JDM parts with USDM cars. One place says there are conversions kits on the market while another says those companies don't fab the kits anymore. So basically I am lost. My ideal goal is to have something with a bit more kick to it, preferably DOHC, very preferably VTEC, and switch out the sloppy automatic with a 5 speed of some sort.

What options do I have that are readily accessible and wont cost a fortune to get going? I am not looking for a racing machine or anything putting out 4587398723 hp at the wheels, it will continue to be a daily driver after the conversion. Don't get me wrong, SOME hp would be nice, more than 112 at least. I will admit without even thinking about it that I am not exactly a Honda sort of guy, under the hood of this thing gives me nightmares when I try to figure out what ties to where and how things are designed.

Mechanically I can figure anything out with enough time and focus but some parts of this damned thing are a mystery to me still. Is there any way to simplify most of that junk?

Any help in plain english and not a barrage of letters and numbers cobbled together would be greatly appreciated.

Zero

[2ndGenGuy]

LOL, I dunno what cars you've been working on that are simpler than the Accord...

But, if you want DOHC and VTAK, your cheapest option will be a B-Series. There is a thread right now called "Dick head racing" (that's really what it's called) and you can sign up for the new mass production run that's going to start soon of the B-series swap mounts.

Then just find some of the how-tos on here as far as the B-series swap. They'll tell you what axles to use and how to do the wiring. It's about the same as doing ANY engine swap in this car, B-series will be cheapest simply due to the current production of mounts.

[Oldblueaccord]

My first question is have you ever done any motor swaps at all?


My second thought it what are you trying to achive? You said a mild power increase. Maybe a supercharger/ small 5 psi turbo on the A20 is more you style.

One thing about the A series is the lack of an LSD in the trans. Its not a necissity but after 150 hp to the wheels your gonna want one.

wp

[ZeroLux]

I want to ditch the trans. Likewise, I want this A20 gone. It's worthless. Yes, I have done engine swaps before, and as far as 'simpler' cars my Dodge is a lot easier to work with due to not having a crapload of vacuum lines and duplicate sensors all over the place. Not to mention, it's not jammed together quite as tight as this Honda. Just looking to rebuild it for daily use with a moderate amount more power- not forced air inducted- I'd like to get 16 valves again so it breathes better- and no more craptastic automatic slushbox holding it back. I might consider getting a super IF I can find one relatively cheap. I know that's not really going to happen, so I'm happy staying N/A for now. I'm not going for the typical fart cannon look or sound either. Also was wondering if there are any poly suspension bushing kits out there I could tighten up the ride with. She'll need new shocks and spring soon since these are well past their life now and all the original rubber is pretty much gone from the rest. I planned on finding an SE-i to pull the rear disc arms off of to convert this one sometime. Basically my glitch in life is that I can't leave things alone, I always feel the need to improve whatever is around me, if that makes any sense. This car needs a lot of work, she rides sloppy and drives terrible.

Zero

[ghettogeddy]

I want to ditch the trans. Likewise, I want this A20 gone. It's worthless. Yes, I have done engine swaps before, and as far as 'simpler' cars my Dodge is a lot easier to work with due to not having a crapload of vacuum lines and duplicate sensors all over the place. Not to mention, it's not jammed together quite as tight as this Honda. Just looking to rebuild it for daily use with a moderate amount more power- not forced air inducted- I'd like to get 16 valves again so it breathes better- and no more craptastic automatic slushbox holding it back. I might consider getting a super IF I can find one relatively cheap. I know that's not really going to happen, so I'm happy staying N/A for now. I'm not going for the typical fart cannon look or sound either. Also was wondering if there are any poly suspension bushing kits out there I could tighten up the ride with. She'll need new shocks and spring soon since these are well past their life now and all the original rubber is pretty much gone from the rest. I planned on finding an SE-i to pull the rear disc arms off of to convert this one sometime. Basically my glitch in life is that I can't leave things alone, I always feel the need to improve whatever is around me, if that makes any sense. This car needs a lot of work, she rides sloppy and drives terrible.

Zero
the a20 is def not worthless its just not as powerful stock do some searching on the site you will find plenty of powerful a20s

[2ndGenGuy]

Mildly worked, and properly tuned A20s have hit 160hp. Heavily built ones have seen 200-220hp, N/A. With a turbo

What duplicate sensors are you referring to? If you don't like the vacuum lines, an OBD-I swap is not that far of a reach, you'll wind up doing nearly the same thing for a B-series swap anyways. 3gee doesn't seem that cramped compared to cars I've seen? But I guess that's a matter of opinion. I've only worked on smaller cars. :)

[ZeroLux]

Duplicate in what it's sensing was my main point. For instance, the three temperature sensors/switches mounted to the coolant neck behind the dist. TW sensor went bad recently, caused issue, replaced it, other sensor for the fan operation which does not appear to work half the time either, and the third temp sensor that displays to the dash. Then if i remember right yet another one mounted in the lower radiator. I know for the technology of it's time back in the day this was probably the easiest method for getting multiple things to adjust via coolant temp, but come on, it just allows for more random crap to go wrong in the long run. Sorry if I'm sounding like an ass here and I am not trying to directly compare cars but I have seen much simpler designs before. One of which being my old 87 Camry LE I had years ago. Wasn't nearly as complicated under the hood.

How hard is it to do an OBD-I conversion? I was under the impression that this car was already OBD-I to some extent. How much would that eliminate from the engine bay? Let me rephrase that, what is involved in the conversion specifically? I would imagine wiring harness changes and an ECU swap, neither of which are too difficult imho.

Alternatively I would be open to ideas on how to make the stock A20 better than it is. I am fine with rebuilding it sometime and seeing if things change for the better any. I KNOW I want to do the manual trans swap as I've never been a fan of automatics of any sort. Plus I think my ATX is close to dead anyway. Slips a lot in various drive conditions, lags the engine when coasting, generally cant put power to the ground at all.

If a VTEC sohc head is found and I can get a hold of a controller for it, is it difficult to install that on top of the A20 block in place of the stock unit? Do they make an sohc that has 16 valves instead of 12? I am having a tough time getting definitive information on what parts are interchangeable between different engine models, especially where JDM- USDM- and EDM come into play.

Thanks again!

Zero

[Rendon LX-i]

how hard? its how hard you make it to be. im in process doing the obd1 setup for my boosted A20...WORTHLESS no no. i smoking b series as it is like nothing. You just have to research and read. Like 2genguy said theres a theard called "Dick Head Racing". IF you want a b series and willing to pay some cash money, hit up that thread an get involved. Its all what you want to do and what kind of money your willing to put down. But a A20 is a very strong block as it is. As far as tight spots, for me my accord was one of the easyest to work on. yes your going to have troubles some times but nothing easy. Dont make excusses man. If you want a B series get involved in that Dick Racing Thread if not Rebuild the A series and make it fast N/A or boosted.

Rendonlxi

[codyJDM]

N/A A-series motors are strong and reliable powerhouses, and their turbo counterparts are just straight ridiculous. I've had a b18c, and a k20a2 and this motor stacks up well for what it is imo.

Don't get too keen of ripping it out just yet, it can treat you pretty well if you give it what it wants.

[2ndGenGuy]

OBD-I Swap (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18160)

Performance FAQ (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61469)

Forced Induction (http://www.3geez.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=81)

Engine Swaps and FAQ-FAQs (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64613)

Also, read OpenLoop's car (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53419), and look for some of his other threads, including his dynos. 160hp N/A on a budget.

[Rendon LX-i]

There you go man...cant put it in discribtion any bettter. All you got to do is CLICK CLICK CLICK. ftw

[2drSE-i]

first, rebuild the A20. Chances are your VERY low in compression. Second, ANY old motor will give you trouble. These things go in phases ive noticed. When the first thing goes wrong with your car, get ready to replace a bunch of stuff down the road. Eventually you get back to where its good again.

[Dr_Snooz]

I realize I'm weighing in to a performance discussion, which isn't wise for me, but here's my two cents. Zerolux, you say you have difficulty figuring things out under the hood and you get frustrated. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a successful swap. It's a lot of work and you're going to need to know how everything works to get it running properly. Two, you say the auto is slipping. That would have a lot to do with the sluggish performance you're experiencing. I'd throw that auto out and swap to manual. That's a lot easier than an engine swap and will give you huge bang for the buck over an engine swap. I'd say start there and see how it goes. Then start thinking about engines. Also, if you haven't been taking proper care of the A (bad gas, poor maintenance), then do right by that and you'll be a lot happier. Dodge's will put up with poor maintenance. Hondas will not.

[ZeroLux]

Yes and No. Cars in general I have no problem with, I understand the complexities and I've worked on plenty over the years. My main problem being that I am relatively unfamiliar with some of this engine since I have not had the car very long. The parts I have learned so far mainly deal with the many things I've had to fix in the last few months. Despite my efforts the car seems to continually degrade to the point where sometimes it feels as if it's just going to fall apart going down the road. I want to like this car, I really do. I have a thing for small cars like this but so far it has proven nothing to me since I have owned it.

I admit, in the beginning it appeared to be better, I took it on the highway the day I got it and hit 80 with no problems and while I have no idea what happened since to cause this, I can't take the highway anymore. If I even think about going on a city road at 55mph or greater for more than a minute or two things start to get sketchy. I have options in mind as to what might be wrong but unfortunately have not been able to take the time and inspect these things yet: head gasket, fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, piston rings, compression, maybe an out of whack sensor or two.

When I start the car in the morning it can idle anywhere from 2200 to almost 3000 rpm's until I tell it otherwise. Tossing it into reverse under those uncontrollable conditions is pretty jolting as the trans is hitting a crossmember down below. I've tried various fixes for the idle but nothing yet, next step is replacing parts.

After it's warmed up if I put it in neutral or park it fluxes revs between 1200 and 15-1800 at random and that isn't the case all the time. Sometimes it idles just fine, albeit at about 1200 rpm's and holds there. This car seems to have no rhyme or reason to it's malfunction and where other cars I've dealt with in the past are fairly obvious as to what the problem is, the Honda tends to hide it from me as best it can.

Getting it up to speed from a stop or accelerating from a roll is pretty bad. The engine seems like it has to work much harder than it should to get going yet the rpm's don't really climb very much in the process. It's most recent trick is to rattle the valve train like crazy if I try to go too fast or up a hill quicker than it would like to do.

My ultimate goal? Nothing spectacular. In all honesty I just want a small car that does not give me fits every time I drive it, that can actually USE the highway or any random higher speed road, and does not make me wonder what is about to fall off at any given minute while going down the road. Reliable is what I am after I guess. The car just seems to need a clean start right now. I am fairly certain from some of the stuff I have fixed that the previous owner was an idiot that didn't take care of it very well.

Zero

[cygnus x-1]

Basically my glitch in life is that I can't leave things alone, I always feel the need to improve whatever is around me, if that makes any sense.

Oh man. Many of us here (including me) have this same affliction. I mess with EVERYTHING whether it's needed or not. :nuts::lol:



Duplicate in what it's sensing was my main point. For instance, the three temperature sensors/switches mounted to the coolant neck behind the dist. TW sensor went bad recently, caused issue, replaced it, other sensor for the fan operation which does not appear to work half the time either, and the third temp sensor that displays to the dash. Then if i remember right yet another one mounted in the lower radiator. I know for the technology of it's time back in the day this was probably the easiest method for getting multiple things to adjust via coolant temp, but come on, it just allows for more random crap to go wrong in the long run.

This one in particular is kinda screwy, but I suspect a lot of cars in the 80s had similar issues. The 80s were kind of a transitional time when cars were moving from mechanical controls to electronic ones, and also were having to meet more and more strict emissions requirements. So some of the earlier designs were kinda funky. There is some value in having redundant sensors but more than 3 is silly. One for the fans and one for the coolant temperature would be fine.

In my junkyard adventures I've looked under the hoods of many hundreds of cars, and these Hondas seem especially bad as far as complexity. They seemed to really like vacuum controls (unfortunately).



How hard is it to do an OBD-I conversion? I was under the impression that this car was already OBD-I to some extent. How much would that eliminate from the engine bay? Let me rephrase that, what is involved in the conversion specifically? I would imagine wiring harness changes and an ECU swap, neither of which are too difficult imho.

Much of the complexity is from the emissions controls, so if you can get rid of some of that you wouldn't even need the OBD1 conversion. The real value of the OBD1 conversion is tuneability. If you have any significant mods it's almost a necessity to be able to tune for those mods.

The other option if you really like to DIY is to go with a standalone ECU like Megasquirt. The MS is cool because it's completely open and customizable. Not only is it completely tuneable but you can even modify the software to change how it operates (if you're so inclined). It's not plug and play by any stetch of the imagination but if you like to tweak things it's pretty much the ultimate. It's also an incredible learning experience. What I discovered is that you actually need very little in the way of sensors to get an engine to run correctly. Mine runs on the following: MAP, crank angle, coolant temperature, air temperature, and O2. I have a throttle sensor but it isn't really used for much. The ignition is retrofitted from a '90s Ford and is completely electronic; so no distributor at all. Just a coil pack, ignition module, and crank sensor.



Alternatively I would be open to ideas on how to make the stock A20 better than it is. I am fine with rebuilding it sometime and seeing if things change for the better any. I KNOW I want to do the manual trans swap as I've never been a fan of automatics of any sort.

Yeah, you need to dump that slushbox. That by itself would make even a tired engine more fun.

There is plenty of room to help out the A20 if you know what it needs. The single biggest deficiency is the head. It just doesn't flow that well in stock form. But reground cams are available and bigger valves can be fitted as well. Pacesetter makes a header. B18 intakes can be made to fit with a little modification. Larger injectors are available. Other stuff can also be had if you look around.



If a VTEC sohc head is found and I can get a hold of a controller for it, is it difficult to install that on top of the A20 block in place of the stock unit?

No one has ever managed to do it so far.



Do they make an sohc that has 16 valves instead of 12?

Not that fits the "A" engines. "D"s and "F"s have SOHC with 16 valves.



I am having a tough time getting definitive information on what parts are interchangeable between different engine models, especially where JDM- USDM- and EDM come into play.

I've never understood the attraction to JDM stuff. It just makes finding parts that much harder. And for the trouble I would rather modify what is available locally to get to where I want to go.


C|

[ZeroLux]

Yeah I have worked with MegaSquirt systems before, good system for the money. The car I am usually comparing the Accord to is my old Neon. I still have some odd unhealthy affection for that car and I know it inside and out. I know it's OBD-II and that changes a LOT of how the design was done but as I recall there's a whopping ONE temp sensor in the 420a setup :) Nice. Simple. To the point. Unfortunately she's still dead and likely wont be rebuilt any time soon otherwise I would not bother with the Honda right now. Going to be dropping a 2.4 in to replace the 2.0 when all is said and done and making a manual conversion out of that one too.

Are there companies out there that make poly suspension bushing overhaul kits for the 3g? Last time I was under the front end it seemed like everything was worn and in need of replacement. My alignment and shocks are so bad that my tires are getting worn down to nothing in under 6 months in the front and the rear two have very unusual wear patterns too.

Maybe I'll just go basic for now and get one of those master engine rebuild kits that was mentioned in another post not long ago, Top Line I think it was. Seems pretty decent for the money and should refresh the A20 back to spec without too much hassle assuming I don't have to overbore anything.

Zero

[2ndGenGuy]

Why are you messing with the Honda? It sounds like you're ready to do more work to it than you need to do to the Neon. And if you like the Neon, it's where all that effort should really go. Don't waste your time on a car you don't really like.

Rebuilding your A20 isn't going to solve anything either. I don't really get your approach to troubleshooting. Idle problems and transmission problems and broken mounts won't be solved with an engine rebuild. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that once you fix all the symptoms you're having, you'll find you won't need a rebuild.

Listen, I just dyno'd a 310,000 mile engine. 210,000 of them were HARD, (said abusive) miles put on it by me. The compression was low, the valvetrain was shot and noisy, and it had some minor rod knock when it was cold. But it still idled just fine. And in fact it put down more power than the engine had when it was stock. You have to have an engine worn out sooooooo badly to experience the problems you're discussing, that it would probably be well beyond a simple rebuild kit. Remember, your car only needs something like 10 horsepower to maintain 55mph on the freeway. Do you think that the internals are worn that badly?

In other words, the problems you're having are completely, 100% not related to the condition of the cylinder head or engine block. Putting in new rings and bearings and valve seals with a regrind won't do dick. Nothing. Period. The end. Get that idea out of your head right now.

[cygnus x-1]

Rebuilding your A20 isn't going to solve anything either. I don't really get your approach to troubleshooting. Idle problems and transmission problems and broken mounts won't be solved with an engine rebuild. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that once you fix all the symptoms you're having, you'll find you won't need a rebuild.

I think his real dilemma is figuring out how much overall effort to put into the car. It's one of those situations where you start fixing one thing at a time not knowing how many other things are next in line to go. After a few rounds of this you begin to wonder if you should just tear the entire thing down and fix everything at once. That way you know everything is good and won't worry about what will break next. It's hard decision to make, and potentially expensive too.

So in this case I interpret "rebuild" as "tear the drive train apart and fix everything that's wrong with it; and do a manual swap".




In other words, the problems you're having are completely, 100% not related to the condition of the cylinder head or engine block. Putting in new rings and bearings and valve seals with a regrind won't do dick. Nothing. Period. The end. Get that idea out of your head right now.

Most likely the problems are not related to general engine wear, but that doesn't mean the rings or valves are not shot as well.

On this car any swap or rebuild is going to be a lot of work. A rebuild will likely be easier as there are no other compatible engines outside the "A" family that are easily obtainable in the US. But then work is all relative so only the one doing it can make that call.

As a final suggestion I would say that what is needed here is more diagnosis. Dig into the service manual and try to figure out what is really going on. And do a compression test to find the overall engine health. Then decide if it is worth proceeding to more involved work.

C|

[Rendon LX-i]

I agree. it can be that you have a vacum leak or some sort of minor problem that.

[2ndGenGuy]

As a final suggestion I would say that what is needed here is more diagnosis. Dig into the service manual and try to figure out what is really going on. And do a compression test to find the overall engine health. Then decide if it is worth proceeding to more involved work.

C|

+1 - That's the point I'm trying to get across. If he rebuilds the engine (first thing he wants to buy is a Top Line rebuild kit) and doesn't solve all the other problems first, he's going to put a rebuilt engine in, and have all the same problems.

And without the engine in the car to start with, he will have no way to diagnose the other problems. You can't pull the engine and fix the fuel injection system without the engine in the car. So a "total rebuild" of the whole car needs to start with fixing all the other issues first. You definitely don't want to put a new engine in, and break it in when things aren't running properly.

While, yes this is a weird car to work on compared to something more modern, the fact is that a few minutes with a service manual will likely get the car into the condition he's really looking for. Even worn rings and worn valves will still get him back and forth to work every day (though with a bit more smoke than normal). :)

I guess I'm interpreting what he's saying differently. I'm interpreting him as wanting to just get the car going as an A -> B car. A rebuild, to me, seems pointless unless he's planning on keeping the car for a while.

[ZeroLux]

So in this case I interpret "rebuild" as "tear the drive train apart and fix everything that's wrong with it; and do a manual swap".

I'm glad someone here got the point. When I say rebuild, I don't mean just be slack and do the internals and not fix everything else under the hood too. Yes I am aware diagnosis of the supporting systems is virtually impossible without the engine. Unfortunately from what I've seen it's equally as difficult to diagnose those systems without knowing if the engine itself is in proper condition or not. Leaky valves, valve seals, bad piston rings, or high carbon build up can give me false leads when focusing on other problems. Basically I would like to eliminate any possibility I can one by one until the majority of the issues are found.

While this is probably meaningless, I imagine the car had a pretty rough life from it's original owner due to various things I have found while working on it and the overall condition of things when I got it. The car has been overheated. To what extent or how many times I don't know. The radiator had been replaced before I got it and was obviously done after other efforts to "fix" things had been exhausted. This is partly evident from the pretty decent amount of JB Weld on the upper rad support. The intake system appears to have been overhauled sometime in it's recent past before I had the car too for what reason I do not know. The car also has a salvage title on it and the best I can tell is that sometime in it's past something hit the top of the car where the sunroof is. The only way I can tell is the paint does not match on the top (orange peel) and there are distinct lines on the rear and front pillars where the body shop didn't blend their work to the original paint very well.

And, yes, I plan on keeping the car. Why else would I bother trying to make it run properly if I had intended on ditching it shortly after? While I might not like the car very much at this point it does not change the fact that I still depend on it to get around.

I have done other diagnostics on different parts of the supporting systems in the last few months trying to pinpoint where the problem might be. I have checked the vacuum as per the FSM instructions. No problems there. I did find a torn line not too long ago that I patched and has been fine since, as I recall it was going to the charcoal canister from the intake. I could be wrong on this since it's been a while. I have not been able to check the compression yet but that is next on my list.

It is hard to explain in full detail since I'm usually not thinking about it unless I am in the car, but the collective problems it is having make the drive ability of it degrade the more it is driven. For instance if I start out at one end of the city and have to go to the other end, by the time I reach my destination the car typically is giving problems that make it harder to keep it at speed.

Zero

[Dr_Snooz]

Expect a workout period. When I bought my BMW, it needed an engine and a transmission. That would be $15,000 in repairs for a car worth $6,000. It broke down every month like clockwork and had to be limped to the shop. I had a huge learning curve to overcome with it. It's German, so everything under the hood is nuts. I was deliberate and just fixed what obviously needed to be repaired, like all 35 trans seals that failed at different times leaving all the trans fluid on my driveway each time. Anyway, it's been four years now and the car is still going strong and finally reliable (for a German car). I haven't replaced the engine or the trans. Just massaged them into working. I'd say, just take a deep breath, relax and start with what needs to be done first. Start using good fluids and you might find the car shape up in short time with just a little TLC.

That said, if the car has been grievously abused, like this one seems to have been, then you're probably in for a lot more money than you care to spend. My 3g was beat pretty bad when I got it. I've spent a fortune ($4,000+) getting it up to snuff. If you aren't stoked with the car already, you're not likely to be any more so after you've spent $4k on it.

So now I've argued that you should keep the car...and that you shouldn't. I won't try to make any sense of that. Instead, I'll just say that my 3g is the most reliable, most fun car I've ever driven. It always leaves me with a big loopy grin, every time I drive it. It's never left me stranded, even when I ran it from Fresno to SF with no oil and again when I ran it with no oil from Carmel to SF. It was hammered and still ran another 2,000 miles while I arranged for a new engine. The car is in every way amazing. Everyone on here will say the same thing.

Anyway, think about it.

[ZeroLux]

Ok, I can accept everyone's input on this, it is what I asked for after all.

But let's try taking this from another approach, maybe it would work out better that way.

Let's say for instance that my head gasket is blown in such a way that only an oil passage is effected on one or two cylinders... what kind of reaction would the car then have if this were the case? I am not getting a crossover of coolant into oil like most bad hg's i've seen. The tapping/rattling in the engine is not consistent at all and very hard to narrow down the source or the cause. I am still thinking it to be the valve train making some chatter, but why? Losing oil pressure? Oil being sucked into chambers instead of making it to the upper head? Is that where the burning is coming from? Is a short period of oil pressure loss on the top end going to cause that noise?

I'm at a loss here people. As stated before, the car has horrid performance. That alone has directed me towards the idea of the fuel filter, loss of fuel pressure, or bad injectors. If the car was getting enough fuel at low rpm's, or let's say barely enough to run but poorly, would the increase of rev's and the decrease of fuel supply cause the noises I am hearing? It obviously would kill power but since I can't rev that high in any gear it's hard to tell if that's the case.

OTOH- I can rev it all day long and not have it give any issues if I am NOT IN any gear. Revs up and down nice and smooth other than the idle fluxing like it always has. No chatter, no burning oil/smoke, nothing unusual. What internally is the difference in a dry rev and one with the engine under load?

I just can't seem to figure out what the heck is going on here. Poor spark maybe? Time to replace coil pack? If timing was off a little wouldn't I see that all the time and not just under load and at speed?

It also has a tendency to coast pretty crappy. Let's say I'm at a low speed, 25-35 for instance and I take my foot off the accelerator to coast a bit, 9 times out of 10 I feel the engine "bog" down like something pressure-wise just went nuts, it holds the bog for a few seconds then usually let's up like nothing ever happened. Now, this did improve SLIGHTLY after I replaced the ECT/TW sensor and both O2 sensors, but it still occurs and is still very noticeable. At first I thought it was dumping too much gas into the cylinders and making the car perform poorly. While this WAS happening the worst I ever saw from it was bad gas mileage and the smell of fuel when I parked the car. This bogging does NOT happen if I toss the trans back into neutral and let it coast not in gear. Could the trans be applying too much load and slowing things down internally?

It also seems that I am getting a lot of blowby. Oil frequently smells like fuel. Could this be from combustion gasses/unspent fuel entering an oil passage via a break in the head gasket as mentioned before, making it's way down to the sump? There's the obvious bad rings which I still think are likely. PCV not working maybe?

Any clues would be helpful. And let me put it another way since I might not have been clear before... I WANT to like this car. It feels like it has potential. It just hasn't shown me much more than problems so far.

Zero

[Dr_Snooz]

But let's try taking this from another approach, maybe it would work out better that way.


The right approach is to tell us what symptoms you have. You describe valve noise, bouncing idle and bogging down on deceleration. That's really not too bad. Valve noise can often be fixed by adjusting the valves. Start there. The bouncing idle is most always a vacuum leak. If you haven't tweaked the idle adjustment screw, start there. Also check your coolant as it will cause this if it's low. If it is low, you'll need to fill and then bleed the system properly. I don't think you'll find an easy fix for your bogging down. I suspect it's a dirty fuel system causing it. Run only good fuel (Chevron premium) and buy the best parts for all your routine maintenance. If the car is really cruddied up, it will take a long time for things to clean up and start working right. Be patient and don't think every problem is a part that needs to be replaced.

Don't forget the basics either. Do a compression test. Possibly a leak down test. Check vacuum also as that will tell you a great deal.

[AccordB20A]

5 speed swap. Autos.. specially 2348958934km honda ones tend to make your car half as slow as a 5 speed one so i definately recommend that
that up and down revvy idle thing is caused from either a vacuum leak (pipe thats off somewhere) OR you have turned your idle up too high

i would do that and any other problem you know about 1st, then consider swapping/rebuilding.

[cygnus x-1]

What does the transmission fluid look like? Is it bright red or more brown? Does it smell sort of oily or more burnt?

Many of the symptoms you describe sound like fuel issues. Like maybe a sticky injector. If you can find a spare maybe try swapping out the ones on the car one at a time.

C|

[Hauntd ca3]

i think i'd start with the comp test as said below and see what that turns up.
the fuelly smelling oil would point to either lots of blow by or the allready suggested hg. and if its been overheated, its a distinct possiblity.
but do the comp test and see if all the cylinders come up nice and even above 150psi.
if a couple are low, do a leak down to narrow it down.
air coming out the inlet: leaky inlet valve
out the exhaust : leaky exhaust valve
bubbles in the rad : either head gasket between cylinder and water jacket or cracked bore.
air out the oil filler : rings or hg between cylinder and oil gallery.later is unlikely but possible.
if you gotta take the head off get it crack tested and checked for warpage.
if its either, its a big arse paper weight, Well thats what i'd do with it
cheaper to get another 2nd hander than fix them

[ZeroLux]

Yeah that's one of the problems I am running into with my other car at the moment, the Neon. Took it off the road after it gave up with the intentions of rebuilding it and found out that the head is pretty badly warped and the valve guides are messed up, on top of that the cam journals are pretty rough from the oil pressure dropping. So I am having to find either a whole new engine (hopefully) or just find a new head and use my stock bottom end for the rebuild.

When I replace the fuel filter is there anything specific I need to watch out for? Will the system bleed out any air that gets in the lines after the pump re-pressurizes the rail? I think while I have the fuel system apart I am going to check a few more things and try to figure out why the return line on the driver's side of the rail spit out a milky-white liquid when I disconnected it months ago. It was gas, but it sure didn't look like gas. Any idea what could cause gas to discolor like that?

I'll check the injectors and clean out the rail while it's all apart, I need to replace a couple of injector seals anyway since they appear to be leaking from the rail on the driver's side two cylinders. What would be recommended to soak the injectors in to clean them up while they are out? I don't want to use any harsh chemicals that could potentially deteriorate any parts of the injector.

I am going to be pressure washing the engine sometime this weekend to get a lot of the built up dirt out of my way. I know I should cover the alternator, and probably the dist too. Is there anything else that would be harmed from a quick blast or two? The holes around the spark plug boots in the head are pretty gunked and the intake runners where the two leaking injectors are have a pretty good layer of dirt sticking to them.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/3111290161_96db2f502b_b.jpg

Maybe I'll go a little further this weekend and while the valve cover is off have it blasted and repainted or powder coated. I have to adjust the valves anyway might as well make some visual improvements at the same time.

Zero

[Dr_Snooz]

Be ready to replace those injectors. They start to leak at the seams and you have to replace them.

[MessyHonda]

Be ready to replace those injectors. They start to leak at the seams and you have to replace them.

one of mine is leaking....i bought the gasket for them....but it sounds like its the injector itself....

[Dr_Snooz]

one of mine is leaking....i bought the gasket for them....but it sounds like its the injector itself....

I did the same thing. Ended up being the injectors themselves. I replaced two and need to replace the other two, but am putting it off.