Leaking Oil (I want to cry).

[OptimusPrimeSr]

>>1 MONTH AGO<< I'm sick as a dog and its 40degrees and raining. I'm going to visit my parents soon and need to get my oil changed before the trip...so I bite the bullet and take her in to the place I used to go to before I got into maintaining my own car (Express Oil).

>>1 WEEK AGO<< I'm getting ready to go to the store and its drizzling outside. I notice the dry spots under all the cars...all the cars except mine. Surely...please...no. I back my car up and touch the spot...sure enough, its oil. I check the stick, and I'm down about 2 quarts.

I look under the car and notice a drop of oil about to fall off the drain bolt and think...well maybe its not that bad...maybe a loose drain bolt. So I jackstand the frontend to examine the problem more closely, and notice the motherfkers used an aluminum washer on the oil pan drain plug. ARGGGGG! :madflip: So I take the wife's car, head to autozone, and grab a new plug w/ a proper washer and some more oil and replace both.

>>YESTERDAY<< I head out for another errand and notice another wet spot under my car. Hoping its an old stain or something, I back up my car, touch the ground, and yes, its...anyone ... anyone... anyone...OIL!#(*&$.

I check the dip stick and note that I'm maybe half a quart HIGH...wtf, I measured that shit 4-5 times after replacing the drain plug only a week ago and it was only at the second hole in on the stick. SHIT.

-----------------------
I'm probably not going to be able to get up under the car until tomorrow or the next day, but here's what I'm thinking...

jack it up, drain 1/2 a quart of oil, wipe everything down to the best of my ability, let it run and try to find the leak.

- How likely am I looking at something other than the drain plug or oil pan gasket?
- Could I have really messed it up by driving around for a week with the oil level half a quart high?


The engine essentially only has about 15k miles on it...I'll have to dig up the paper work to find out what was replaced with brand new and what was simply over-hauled.

[Rendon LX-i]

your Rings can take a shit if your to high but i done that couple times didnt hurt anything. I would take Quart out then put your drain plug in. Get some dye to see if its your oil pan gasket. And dont dont do the mistake i did by not torqueing the pan bolts. 10 ft pounds.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Get some dye to see if its your oil pan gasket
can you please elaborate on this?




Update: I'm taking the day off tomorrow from work to address this issue. please proceed to pelt me with methods for determining the source of the leaking oil.

[cubert]

can you please elaborate on this?




Update: I'm taking the day off tomorrow from work to address this issue. please proceed to pelt me with methods for determining the source of the leaking oil.

There is a dye you can add to you oil that makes it react to a blacklight, so you can see where the leak is coming from.

Another technique is to dry all the oil up, and buy a can of spray on foot powder. Spray around where you think it is leaking from, and when the oil leaks it will go through the powder, leading you to the source.

[2ndGenGuy]

I thought you were supposed to use an aluminum washer on the drain plug? :dunno:

[OptimusPrimeSr]

There is a dye you can add to you oil that makes it react to a blacklight, so you can see where the leak is coming from.

Another technique is to dry all the oil up, and buy a can of spray on foot powder. Spray around where you think it is leaking from, and when the oil leaks it will go through the powder, leading you to the source.

will look into this...thanks.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I thought you were supposed to use an aluminum washer on the drain plug? :dunno:

never heard of that, nor have I ever used one.


edit: after quick googling, you are correct. however, some recommend going with other materials to avoid prematurely wearing out the threads due to the excessive torque necessary to get a tight seal.

maybe my threads are fucked and I need a new oil pan...

[Oldblueaccord]

The Honda washer for the oil drain plug is aluminium. its pretty soft and good for a few uses before it needs replacing.


wp

[anubix]

lol
you checked your oil in your drive way.

Is your driveway uphill? if so, that would explain why it seemed lower than it was. (i'm not saying you weren't leaking, but probably not as bad as you thought)
When you checked the second time, were you in the same spot? or a different one? or were u in the same spot pointed downhill, which would also give a different reading reading?

YOU GOTS TO DO IT ON A LEVEL SURFACE, foundation cement @ gas stations is usually level, especially around the in ground tanks. thats where I does it if I can't get my car into my garage, which also obviously has a level floor.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

lol
you checked your oil in your drive way.

Is your driveway uphill? if so, that would explain why it seemed lower than it was. (i'm not saying you weren't leaking, but probably not as bad as you thought)
When you checked the second time, were you in the same spot? or a different one? or were u in the same spot pointed downhill, which would also give a different reading reading?

YOU GOTS TO DO IT ON A LEVEL SURFACE, foundation cement @ gas stations is usually level, especially around the in ground tanks. thats where I does it if I can't get my car into my garage, which also obviously has a level floor.

I live in a small townhouse cluster...not a typical driveway and pretty much flat. I will admit, I was checking the oil level while the car was jacked up. Will make a note in the future...ty.

I would kill for a garage :devil:

[OptimusPrimeSr]

well I took the day off from work....whooooooo hoooooooo

today's agenda...
1. finish coffee
2. replace pump seal on leaking dishwasher.
3. more coffee, maybe some breakfast
4. drain oil to correct level, lowering front end to check
5. say prayers that oil is leaking from somewhere that's easily fixable
6. remember I don't believe in god and snap out of it
7. drink another cup of coffee
8. find source of oil leak (will use dye if necessary)

[cubert]

let us know how it goes

[OptimusPrimeSr]

well it didn't go so well.

1. driver and passenger outer boots are cracked...looks recent since there's still a good amount of grease packed up in the boot.
<sorry no pics...I'm sure everyone can imagine what it looks like from personal experience>

2. discovered an anti-freeze leak somewhere in the back/bottom area of the carb.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2337/af2editwi9.jpg

close up - top of this image is the wall separating the cabin from engine bay
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1930/af1editjk3.jpg

3. couldn't pinpoint the oil leak. I have 2 or 3 suspected sources, but can't pin point it.

suspect 1 - seems like the oil could easily be coming from the driver side of the engine...camshaft seal?...hopefully not the block.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6712/oil1editat6.jpg

suspect 2 - after wiping down, then firing up the car, I noticed what appeared to be a drip line coming from the metal pipe attached to the oil pan. seems possible that the hose has a hole, maybe a leak from the oil pan gasket.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4502/oil2edittg9.jpg


-------------------------------------------

So here's the deal, I'm taking my car in to a shop I trust (Far East Motor Works for those in ATL). I've done boots before, and I'd just rather pay for that to be taken care of. And since they are doing that, I might as well get an estimate on the new AF leak (which can probably be resolved by replacing a few tubes) and the persisting Oil leak (which btw is much much slower than I originally though).


EDIT: oh yeah, and the replacement seal kit for the dishwasher pump/motor resolved that issue, so I'm considering myself up about $200 for the day...makes the car trouble a little easier to swallow.

[2oodoor]

good day so far !!
yep those oil leaks are not easy to deal with in a driveway, cant get to them good even with a floor jack

[OptimusPrimeSr]

roodoo, long time bro...hope things are well.


good day so far !!
yep those oil leaks are not easy to deal with in a driveway, cant get to them good even with a floor jack

no doubt. top 10 purchases after submitting a winning lotto ticket would include ample garage space with a car lift.

[LX-incredible]

suspect 1 - seems like the oil could easily be coming from the driver side of the engine...camshaft seal?...hopefully not the block. Cam seal, crank seal, or oil pump. Crank and cam seals can be easily replaced with an inexpensive seal puller, adequately sized PVC pipe fittings, and a hammer to drive them. Oil pump is easy as well. You'll need to remove the cover and timing belt to get a good idea which it is...



suspect 2 - after wiping down, then firing up the car, I noticed what appeared to be a drip line coming from the metal pipe attached to the oil pan. seems possible that the hose has a hole, maybe a leak from the oil pan gasket. Could be that or the tube that the pcv valve goes into, o-ring that seals the breather box to block, or the dried up grommet at the top of the box. The oil filter housing to block seal may be leaking as well. If you plan on removing that box, the valve, or any of the tubes, make sure you have all the rubber to replace what you touch. That crap will shatter like high-temp plastic if it hasn't been replaced.

Your coolant leak looks to be coming from above...

[2oodoor]

roodoo, long time bro...hope things are well.



no doubt. top 10 purchases after submitting a winning lotto ticket would include ample garage space with a car lift.

mine would be going to the barret jackson auto auction and pick up one or five of those GM cars they are releasing from the GM collection. I watched it briefly this weekend and there was a brand spanking new olds W-30 442 72 model... super super sweet car
One of 100 special 69 camaros with a vette 427 engine... drewl

[Dr_Snooz]

Cam seal, crank seal, or oil pump. Crank and cam seals can be easily replaced with an inexpensive seal puller, adequately sized PVC pipe fittings, and a hammer to drive them.

Just use a medium to small slotted screwdriver to pull the old seal. Jam it through and pry it out. Use a socket (24 mm?) to drive the cam seal and use the old crank seal to drive the new crank seal. Just place the old seal over the new one, face to face, and hammer lightly around the perimeter until it is home. I did that for my rear main seal because I couldn't find anything big enough to drive it. It works amazingly well.

[LX-incredible]

I did that for my rear main seal because I couldn't find anything big enough to drive it. It works amazingly well.

I've done it that way, but an assortment of 3" sewer fittings works better.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

just spoke with the mechanic.
- main oil leak is coming from the power steering pump seal ($90)
- much smaller oil leak coming from the oil-pan gasket ($180).
- AF is leaking from a cracked hose ($65).
- driver's side axle replacement ($225)
- passenger side boot replacement ($160)
- leak coming from the master cylinder ($395)

I told them to fix everything with the exception of the master cylinder and the oil pan gasket. I'm going to do those myself if necessary.

[2oodoor]

Oh man that master cyl must be gold plated, you could recondition the whole brake system for less than that.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Oh man that master cyl must be gold plated, you could recondition the whole brake system for less than that.

lol. should have specified those numbers include both parts and labor.

once I get my car back tomorrow, I'm going to focus on the master cylinder. How does one just go bad?

[carotman]

I assume that these prices are parts AND labor?

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I assume that these prices are parts AND labor?

yeah parts and labor.



UPDATE
got the car back on Friday. Drove it probably only about 20 miles this weekend and go up underneath it today to see that I still have oil leaking :banghead:...and I just don't think its *all* coming from the oil pan...even with wind, it looks to be too high for that to be the only source.

I'm planning ordering some parts...valve cover gasket, oil pump seal, front crank seal, and front cam seal since the oil is really only on that side.

Once those parts arrive, I'm going to take the valve and timing covers off to get a good luck at the potential sources of oil leakage (other than the oil pan gasket -- that will be last).

If I can definitely narrow it down to a single source, then I'll replace that one only...however, if I can't tell, I'm doing them all. I'm putting 70% chances on it being the oil pump (after spending a little time researching). Hoping the crankshaft seal looks clean since I'm a little worried about getting the crankshaft pulley off.


Anything else I should take care of while I'm all up in it?
Is it necessary to detach AC and PS and move them aside?
Oh, also doing the master cylinder...fuck it, why not?


------------------------------------
I gotta say, I'm a little PO'd that I'm having oil leaking. I bought the car 1.5 years ago with a rebuilt engine...could I have just done a really shitty job breaking it in?

[russiankid]

Do the timing belt while you're at it. It would be kind of dumb to do all of that work and not change the belt and tensioner.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Do the timing belt while you're at it. It would be kind of dumb to do all of that work and not change the belt and tensioner.

meh, those were done ~15k miles ago.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Ok, here's my preliminary project outline. I want to get this confirmed before I order any parts.

=======================================
OIL LEAK
=======================================
parts:
- HONDA valve cover gasket
- HONDA front camshaft oil seal
- HONDA front crankshaft oil seal
- HONDA oil pump seal

tools:
- general hand tools
- torque wrench
- hammer/mallet
- zip ties/bottle of wife's nail polish
- motor oil

questions:
- I know I need gasket seal shit for the hump-corners on the sides of the valve cover, but do I need anything other than motor oil for replacing the cam/crank/oil pump seals?
- Can someone who has done this procedure before, please indicate points of the process that I should look out for that may cause me trouble?
- is it necessary to detach the PowerSteering and AC components to get enough room to work along that side of the engine?


=======================================
MASTER CYLINDER REPLACEMENT
=======================================
parts:
- replacement master cylinder
- brake fluid

tools:
- general hand tools
- torque wrench
- tubing for pre-bleeding the new master cylinder
- bleeder kit


questions:
- I don't have a staionary vice. Is that absolutely necessary for holding the master cylinder while bleeding it before installing in the car? How hard is it to pump the system?
- Can someone who has done this procedure before, please indicate points of the process that I should look out for that may cause me trouble?

[OptimusPrimeSr]

DAY1 - cam/crank/oil pump/valve cover gasket/seals
0. loosen driver side front wheel, jackstand the front end, remove driver's front tire
1. detach cruise control and lay to side.
2. remove valve cover (discard gasket)
3. remove upper timing cover
4. zip tie and remove camshaft sprocket

- replace front camshaft oil seal (if necessary)

5. place floor jack (w/ wood+cloth cushion) under oil pan
6. position engine @ TDC
7. remove left engine mount
8. remove crankshaft pulley (hopefully not too much trouble)
9. remove water pump pulley
10. remove lower timing cover

- replace front crankshaft oil seal (if necessary)
- remove oil pump and replace seals and gasket

11. clean and reinstall oil pump
12. clean and reinstall crankshaft sprocket
13. clean and reinstall lower timing cover
14. clean and reinstall water pump pulley
15. clean and reinstall crankshaft pulley
16. clean and reinstall camshaft sprocket with timing belt
17. reinstall left engine mount
18. verify timing is still good
19. clean and reinstall upper timing cover

- install valve cover gasket (gasket sealer on camshaft hump corners)

20. clean and reinstall valve cover
21. put wheel back on, lower front end, tighten lug nuts
22. reattach cruise control
23. test drive

what am I missing?


brake master cylinder + oil pan gasket will be done at a later date...preferably when its time for my next oil change.

[w261w261]

I didn't spend a lot of time going through this thread, but I thought that I'd throw out that a typical oil leak comes from the oil filter mounting plate gasket. It's a little figure-8 shaped thing. At the same time that you replace it, I'd do the oil pressure switch also. Just be careful of the (3?) little bolts that hold the mount on, if you break them off I think it would be Trouble in River City.

I also was getting a leak from the oil filter gasket itself. A ridge of crud had built up on the filter mounting surface, and the filter gasket couldn't make a good seal. I scraped it off with my fingernail, and finished off with a rag with some solvent on it. You can feel this surface from below when you change your filter.

I think the oil leaks are the biggest pain with our cars, maybe followed by suspension creaks. Not too bad, all in all.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I didn't spend a lot of time going through this thread, but I thought that I'd throw out that a typical oil leak comes from the oil filter mounting plate gasket. It's a little figure-8 shaped thing. At the same time that you replace it, I'd do the oil pressure switch also. Just be careful of the (3?) little bolts that hold the mount on, if you break them off I think it would be Trouble in River City.

I also was getting a leak from the oil filter gasket itself. A ridge of crud had built up on the filter mounting surface, and the filter gasket couldn't make a good seal. I scraped it off with my fingernail, and finished off with a rag with some solvent on it. You can feel this surface from below when you change your filter.

I think the oil leaks are the biggest pain with our cars, maybe followed by suspension creaks. Not too bad, all in all.

Yeah, after ordering the new seals/gaskets (from Majestic Honda), I continued to peruse the boards and noticed that the oil filter mounting plate gasket has wreaked havoc for others on this board.

I'm going to give it a thorough inspection when replacing the cam/crank/oil pump/valve cover gaskets/seals (hopefully this weekend if the parts arrive in time). If necessary, I'll add the oil filter mounting plate gasket to the next job when I replace the oil pan gasket (which I know to be leaking). I'll do some research on the oil pressure switch as well. Thanks for the tips.


I've only had this car for 1.5 years, and this is the first trouble I've had with oil leaks. And the suspension creaks were ridiculous on the CB7 I drove before this.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

UPDATE: removed valve cover and upper timing cover to get a quick look. None of the replacement gaskets/seals have arrived yet, but I just couldn't help myself with the nice weather we're had today.

1. valve cover gasket was leaking...I think the mechanic took it off when investigating the oil leak and just put it right back on without taking the time to remove the sealant residue at the corners nor applying any new sealant. I didn't check the torque either, so maybe it wasn't on tight enough.

2. front camshaft oil seal was immaculate (reassuring considering I paid extra for this car since the engine was new). however, there were oil trails down *both* sides originating from the valve cover cam-hump thing a ma bob.

3. so basically, from up under the car, I see oil coming down from higher up than the oil pan gasket (albeit, the oil pan is probably leaking too, but I'm working my way down) which means the most likely places are the oil filter base gasket, oil pump seal(s), or the front crankshaft oil seal as possibilities for that leak.

4. the 2 pieces of gasket on the sides of the upper timing belt look like they're original...how important are they to replace? I might as well, since it can't be more than a buck or two, and I do still have another order to place for the oil pan gasket and possibly the oil filter base gasket.


That's about it for the day...the sun began to set and so I covered the exposed engine, and brought the valve cover and upper timing cover in for some cleaning. I have brand new hi-temp engine paint that's been collecting dust for a year (was going to paint VC of previous car but then totaled it), so I think I'll paint this VC before putting it back on.

It's been over a year since I've worked on my car (other than oil changes and the like), and I gotta say...HOOOOOOORAH I miss this shit. Sooo relaxing.

Once the parts come, I'll get back out there and snap some pics...these types of threads are worthless w/out pics.

[russiankid]

Do you mean the gasket on the timing belt cover? If so its about $20-30 for the set. You can reuse it as it just keeps dust out.

[Oldblueaccord]

UPDATE: removed valve cover and upper timing cover to get a quick look. None of the replacement gaskets/seals have arrived yet, but I just couldn't help myself with the nice weather we're had today.

1. valve cover gasket was leaking...I think the mechanic took it off when investigating the oil leak and just put it right back on without taking the time to remove the sealant residue at the corners nor applying any new sealant. I didn't check the torque either, so maybe it wasn't on tight enough.

Make sure you use new gromuts,under the nuts, as well that hold down the VC thats most important. The nuts dont get torqued much.

2. front camshaft oil seal was immaculate (reassuring considering I paid extra for this car since the engine was new). however, there were oil trails down *both* sides originating from the valve cover cam-hump thing a ma bob.

3. so basically, from up under the car, I see oil coming down from higher up than the oil pan gasket (albeit, the oil pan is probably leaking too, but I'm working my way down) which means the most likely places are the oil filter base gasket, oil pump seal(s), or the front crankshaft oil seal as possibilities for that leak.

This is just coming from me but the main sources for leaks are. Rear: oil filter base gasket Driver side: oil pump leaks oil out of the shaft sprays it everywhere in a fine mist. You can use a white sheet of paper held near it to see it in action. Passenger side: Distributor O ring

4. the 2 pieces of gasket on the sides of the upper timing belt look like they're original...how important are they to replace? I might as well, since it can't be more than a buck or two, and I do still have another order to place for the oil pan gasket and possibly the oil filter base gasket.


Its just keeps dust dirt out, I have not run my upper cover in prolly 8 years or more. Its your preferance really.


That's about it for the day...the sun began to set and so I covered the exposed engine, and brought the valve cover and upper timing cover in for some cleaning. I have brand new hi-temp engine paint that's been collecting dust for a year (was going to paint VC of previous car but then totaled it), so I think I'll paint this VC before putting it back on.

It's been over a year since I've worked on my car (other than oil changes and the like), and I gotta say...HOOOOOOORAH I miss this shit. Sooo relaxing.

Once the parts come, I'll get back out there and snap some pics...these types of threads are worthless w/out pics.

[Dr_Snooz]

The deal with these cars is that they will pee oil from every single seal in the block given enough time. About the only seal that will not leak is the rear main. At the dealer, all the seals behind the timing cover are changed with each timing belt change. I think you're on the right track just changing everything.

The only hard part with the timing belt change is getting the driver's side motor mount to line up. I found getting the oil filter base off with the engine still in the car to be difficult. I think I finally got mine off by pulling the air filter assembly and use a big Crescent wrench to remove the oil pressure sending unit.

Good luck.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Do you mean the gasket on the timing belt cover? If so its about $20-30 for the set. You can reuse it as it just keeps dust out.

meh...in that case I may reuse the old ones or cut up the old VC gasket and see if that will work. Either way, I'm not really interested in spending $20/30 to keep the dust out.


Make sure you use new gromuts,under the nuts, as well that hold down the VC thats most important. The nuts dont get torqued much.


good point, and one I didn't even think about when ordering the VC gasket. Last time I changed the VC gasket (old CB7), I just used a felpro kit that included new gromuts and I think it even included new rocker-arm o-rings. I guess I'll stop by advanced auto and pick up a set of new gromuts as the old ones seemed shitty, and I had to pry them off of the VC with a flat head.



The only hard part with the timing belt change is getting the driver's side motor mount to line up.
are you referring to lining it back up to when you are putting it back in?


I found getting the oil filter base off with the engine still in the car to be difficult. I think I finally got mine off by pulling the air filter assembly and use a big Crescent wrench to remove the oil pressure sending unit.

Good luck.
yeah, I'm kind dreading this after reading the HOW TO. That poster had a full lift and still it seemed tricky. I foresee a super soar neck while up under the car trying to get my wrench to it.

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah the oil filter base youll have to remove all the air box stuff and work from the top. Unless you can get your car high up and safe enough to get underneath it I would work from above. You can peak down thru the intake runners and see whats going on well enough.

The VC I would get a new one I think they come with the new gromuts. I'll tell you last month I pulled mine, its been leaking some, and permtexed the front edges and put it back and it still leaks. I wanted to try it out but I have neve been able to get them to hold with any goop on em at all. Now I have gooped the distributor O ring area with alot of luck. Those gromuts put all the pressure on the valve cover and once there squished down there no tension hot/cold to keep it sealed I think.

Also water clamp that PVC hose to the oil pan it could be leaking there or even thru the hose if its gotten porus.


wp

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ok, a little confused about the VC gromuts...

which number? I assumed #12, but the description for #12 is "WASHER, HEAD COVER"
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13SE00_E09.gif


The VC I would get a new one I think they come with the new gromuts.
I'll see if I can get this one back on without leaks first...before considering a new one.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Quickie of the VC paint job underway...I always like how red looked in others' cars...so why not. This is after the 2nd and final clear coat.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7391/vc1wv5.jpg


Nice and clean! anyone know the torque specs for the posts that the VC acorn nuts screw down on? The middle one came loose when removing the VC yesterday and I want to make sure I torque it down good.
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5194/vc2vj3.jpg


Ok, back to the oil leak. Arrows show the estimated path of the oil from leaky VC...dear god I'd shit myself if the head gasket is leaking...
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1980/oilleak1sw7.jpg

edit: oh and its not the best angle, but the cam seal is bone dry.

[w261w261]

In my opinion, those that do not use Honda OEM gaskets do so at their peril. I replaced the VC gasket from a non-Honda source and had problems with leaks. I went to the Honda dealer and the problems were solved. You don't have to crank down on the studs holding the VC on, in fact, too much torque can mess things up.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

finished product...
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2274/vc3an6.jpg

the emblem could have been masked off a little better, but whatever...can't really tell unless your right up on it.

[2oodoor]

wow nice job on the VC !!
the grommets are rubber bootys under those caps #12
The deal with the oil leaks is the round o ring type material they use in those odd shapes, turn into hard brittle material and develop cracks. Both the oil filter base gask, and the oil pump internal seals are made of the same thing.
The oil pump is simple to fix, the gask. were like 14 bucks at Honda. The oill pumps are usually fine just by replacing those rubbers.
The filter base gask is really easy to do when the intake manifold is off !:bowrofl::o

[OptimusPrimeSr]

wow nice job on the VC !!
ty ty



...when the intake manifold is off !:bowrofl::o

lol

[2oodoor]

good "hiearchial "recollection of events in the procedure, we could use more of that around here .. they don't disappear like lost unsupported images.

[Dr_Snooz]

anyone know the torque specs for the posts that the VC acorn nuts screw down on?

7 ft-lbs. which is slightly tighter than you can turn them with your fingers.

[2oodoor]

7 ft-lbs. which is slightly tighter than you can turn them with your fingers.

oh man I forgot.. about as tight as you can twist with a nutdriver if even that.

[russiankid]

The deal with these cars is that they will pee oil from every single seal in the block given enough time. About the only seal that will not leak is the rear main. At the dealer, all the seals behind the timing cover are changed with each timing belt change. I think you're on the right track just changing everything.

The only hard part with the timing belt change is getting the driver's side motor mount to line up. I found getting the oil filter base off with the engine still in the car to be difficult. I think I finally got mine off by pulling the air filter assembly and use a big Crescent wrench to remove the oil pressure sending unit.

Good luck.

haha my rear main leaked.

[russiankid]

oh man I forgot.. about as tight as you can twist with a nutdriver if even that.

I usually use a ratchet and tighten them evenly until they stop without any force, and I just leave it there.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

first set of parts arrived, but I didn't notice until about an hour ago and it was too close to sunset to begin.

Anyway, I went ahead and installed a few misc parts and removed the black plastic protective shield up under the front bumper. The driver's side was caked in oil and dirt...passenger side was clean. Sprayed it with degreaser, hosed it off, and its drying in the back. So now I have a better view of the driver's side of the engine from up under and oil is everywhere. I'll snap a few pics tomorrow morning before I begin the work.

Oh, and what's this tube (outlined in red)?
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3536/whatisthisra5.jpg

[russiankid]

The tube is for the PCV system. That is what drains back the oil that goes through the PCV. The hose leaks on just about every 3gen. Just replace the hose and get some new hose clamps, simple fix. Just be careful, the other end(not on the pan) is plastic.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

The tube is for the PCV system. That is what drains back the oil that goes through the PCV. The hose leaks on just about every 3gen. Just replace the hose and get some new hose clamps, simple fix. Just be careful, the other end(not on the pan) is plastic.

is the tube #3 in this picture?
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13SE00_E08.gif

[OptimusPrimeSr]

also, for this work I'm doing, is it necessary to detach and set aside the AC compressor unit, Alternator, and PS pump?

Just checked my haynes manual and it says detach that shit...but sounds like a head ache.

[russiankid]

Seems to be. And no you do not have to remove anything but the belts.

[Oldblueaccord]

first set of parts arrived, but I didn't notice until about an hour ago and it was too close to sunset to begin.

Anyway, I went ahead and installed a few misc parts and removed the black plastic protective shield up under the front bumper. The driver's side was caked in oil and dirt...passenger side was clean. Sprayed it with degreaser, hosed it off, and its drying in the back. So now I have a better view of the driver's side of the engine from up under and oil is everywhere. I'll snap a few pics tomorrow morning before I begin the work.

Oh, and what's this tube (outlined in red)?
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3536/whatisthisra5.jpg

Thats the hose I am saying add hose clamps too cuz it can leak. Its really a bitch to change out without the oil pan off the hose is very stiff. I wold just add clamps to it.


Also with the MC you can put it on the car and then bleed it out. It will keep you from pushing the plunger to far in and messing it up. Just pump it with the pedal.


wp

[lostforawhile]

that hose always leaks, i have one thats not that old and it's already leaking, the oil seems to dissolve it. changing all those fittings to threaded and going AN on all of it, so no more leaks. the box is already all threaded fittings.

[russiankid]

I have a hose from Autozone that has been in there for 5 or 6 years now leak free.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

quick pics from up under of oil leakage...
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3329/oilleak4bl2.jpg

and from the wheel well...
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7923/oilleak3tn7.jpg


Now...god damn pulley (water pump?)...soaking in PB-Blaster (penetrating lubricant) along with crankshaft pulley bolt to see if that helps... any trick in removal? I just tried a short 1/2" socket extension jammed in one of the holes, but when I started to wrench down on the bolt, the pulley started to warp...

the hole underlined is the one that was threaded with the socket extension...damage = negligible...hopefully will not need to be replaced.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7770/3boltpulley1vm2.jpg

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ok, soaking the waterpump pulley bolts in PB-Blaster did the trick...

now, as for the tensioner seal, I assume that's simply a bolt that I can unscrew...lol the haynes manual just shows a hand pulling it out...why don't the call it the tensioner bolt?

edit: yeah a little PB Blaster and that finally came loose. I was just a little concerned about possibly stripping it or torquing the head off...read a few horror stories when researching it.

game on!

[lostforawhile]

i would start from the top down, new valve cover seal,they leak all the time, dizzy o ring seal,they do the same, have you gotten under the car and looked at the oil pump adaptor where it bolts to the block? there's a special o ring in there that leaks all the time. little bit tricky but with patience and a torque wrench,not too bad. how old is your timing belt? have you checked it for oil? the cam seal can leak and oil runs down inside of the belt cover. and drips out the bottom. what about the grommets that hold on the vlave cover? they should come with a valve cover gasket. they can leak and the oil runs down the corner of the valve cover.what about the crank and the oil pan? this sounds like a lot,but when you get done,even if one at a time, you will have solved all your leaks for a long time. these gaskets get old is all.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

BOOM got the crank pulley bolt off...using a combination of a large flat head jammed in the timing hole on the tranny side of the engine as well as 2x 5/8" bolts in the pulley hole with a floor jack bar wedged between and forced against the frame. Then I just squat thrusted the bitch loose with my 24" breaker bar with a 1.5' 1/2" extension.

LUNCH BREAK!

[OptimusPrimeSr]

i would start from the top down, new valve cover seal,they leak all the time, dizzy o ring seal,they do the same, have you gotten under the car and looked at the oil pump adaptor where it bolts to the block? there's a special o ring in there that leaks all the time. little bit tricky but with patience and a torque wrench,not too bad. how old is your timing belt? have you checked it for oil? the cam seal can leak and oil runs down inside of the belt cover. and drips out the bottom. what about the grommets that hold on the vlave cover? they should come with a valve cover gasket. they can leak and the oil runs down the corner of the valve cover.what about the crank and the oil pan? this sounds like a lot,but when you get done,even if one at a time, you will have solved all your leaks for a long time. these gaskets get old is all.

ty, checking all that.

another GA member...good deal. lol Moultre?

[Dr_Snooz]

You seem to be struggling with frozen bolts. Try this thread:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64355&highlight=rusted+frozen

Think especially about the "hillbilly impact" method. I use it the most.

[lostforawhile]

BOOM got the crank pulley bolt off...using a combination of a large flat head jammed in the timing hole on the tranny side of the engine as well as 2x 5/8" bolts in the pulley hole with a floor jack bar wedged between and forced against the frame. Then I just squat thrusted the bitch loose with my 24" breaker bar with a 1.5' 1/2" extension.

LUNCH BREAK!they say install the crank seal dry,but try coating it with permatex high temp thread sealant, the outside of it,before you drive it in. it will set up and help stop oil from leaking around the seal. it comes in a small white tube, advance carries it,about 4.95. if you are cheap,get some indian head gasket shellack and do the same thing. the permatex is supposed to be for pipe threads,but it works well to seal the outside of drive in seals as well. any airtight gap like that.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

now that the site has been un-hacked...

after lunch on Sunday, I managed to get the rest of the stuff disassembled fairly easily. The seals on the engine...all dry...all good. This was reassuring since they should have all been replaced 15k miles ago when the engine was replaced.

So here's where the leak is coming from...
1. a little from the oil pan gasket.
2. a little from the breather hose attached to the oil pan.
3. a decent amount from the AC compressor.

So while I'm going to replace 1 and 2 above this weekend, I'm trying to figure out what to do about 3. The oil from the AC compressor was being sprayed everywhere by the pulley and belt, and because the was NO seal on the lower timing cover, it had gotten behind there. Should I just remove the belt for now while its cold? This would buy me some research time.

Questions:
- Is there an aftermarket crank pulley with hex pattern that can accept the crank tool? This would make future timing work much easier.
- How necessary is the timing cover seal? I ordered a new one and then put everything back together...like a dumbass...the new seal will arrive on Friday...so I'm thinking I might as well install it before torquing down the crank bolt....:gun:

[OptimusPrimeSr]

ugh...dug a little deeper with the oil-leaking-compressor research and there doesn't appear to be a good (=cheap/quick) solution. I think I'm just going to remove the belt for now. It will be easier to convince myself that I need AC if I wait for the weather to warm up.

so next weekend, (possibly the weekend - might have to go visit the mother-in-law this coming weekend), tune in for an oil pan gasket change and a breather tube and clamp replacement. I'll check the oil filter base gasket (but am 99% sure its fine and was replaced 15k miles ago).

That will take care of the oil leak (aside from the gd ac compressor). after that, I should be back to regular maintenance ;-)

[Dr_Snooz]

I wouldn't worry too much about the timing cover seal.

If you haven't had a lot of trouble with your AC compressor before now, be grateful. It's your time now. It might be possible to reseal it. If you haven't already, it's definitely time to convert to R134. If you have a Keihin compressor, just throw it away and buy a Nippondenso.

[lostforawhile]

I wouldn't worry too much about the timing cover seal.

If you haven't had a lot of trouble with your AC compressor before now, be grateful. It's your time now. It might be possible to reseal it. If you haven't already, it's definitely time to convert to R134. If you have a Keihin compressor, just throw it away and buy a Nippondenso.
you need to find one in a junkyard first, the bracket and hoses are different. may need to locate the bracket and buy a rebuilt compressor.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

"A" for Anarchy. Those two small bolts where attached through the holes on the crank pulley, and the red floor jack arm was wedged between them to hold the shaft. Notice how the bolts are bent...
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4842/aforanarchywt6.jpg

Locking the flywheel with my big flat head. I had to go out and buy this one since my formerly biggest flat head was not enough and popped right out when I cranked down on the breaker bar trying to loosen the crank bolt.
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/623/crankbolt1yb3.jpg

Clean front crank and oilpump seals. The block seems to be coated in a glossy-black-finish which makes it fun for pinpointing oil leaks :thumbdn:
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/589/crankseal1uj5.jpg

[OptimusPrimeSr]

checked with Majestic on Friday and the parts had to be special ordered so they won't ship out until early next week...sigh.

[w261w261]

<< If you haven't had a lot of trouble with your AC compressor before now, be grateful. It's your time now. It might be possible to reseal it. If you haven't already, it's definitely time to convert to R134. If you have a Keihin compressor, just throw it away and buy a Nippondenso. >>

Not necessarily "definitely time to convert." R134 loses you a good piece of cooling power, so you don't get that real cool punch that you might be used to. My (knock on wood) original compressor/system was recharged with Freon in 2001 when I bought the car. Two summers ago I added one can, which cost me 29 bucks I think. If your system is sealed well, the high cost of Freon is not really an issue, and the higher cooling is usually welcomed.

[griffonks]

I usually attach a chain to bolts thru the pully holes and rout thye chain around the frame. The bolts don't bend over like the ones that you pictured. I was afraid that the pulley might deform but so far no problem

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I usually attach a chain to bolts thru the pully holes and rout thye chain around the frame. The bolts don't bend over like the ones that you pictured. I was afraid that the pulley might deform but so far no problem

this is a good idea...ty.

-------------------------------------------
UPDATE: after further inspection, the oil is not leaking out of the AC compressor, but actually dripping down from the power steering motor. Will do a little research and then call the shop and complain. \

Also, the rest of parts are arriving later this week.

[russiankid]

You can also make a tool for the pump pulley. This tool is for my BMW to get the fan off(as pictured), but I used it on the 3gen and it worked wonders. Took me 5 minutes to get the pulley off.

Tool is on the left.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/russian03rustler/525i/FanClutch.jpg

[russiankid]

You can also make a tool for the pump pulley. This tool is for my BMW to get the fan off(as pictured), but I used it on the 3gen and it worked wonders. Took me 5 minutes to get the pulley off. All you do is put one bolt into the hole and lean the rest of the tool against the next bolt. The pump then cannot spin and you can get the bolts off.

Tool is on the left.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/russian03rustler/525i/FanClutch.jpg

[OptimusPrimeSr]

i like that idea alot...will definitely be making one of those tools. TY

[lostforawhile]

this is a good idea...ty.

-------------------------------------------
UPDATE: after further inspection, the oil is not leaking out of the AC compressor, but actually dripping down from the power steering motor. Will do a little research and then call the shop and complain. \

Also, the rest of parts are arriving later this week.you can get a kit and rebuild the PS pump yourself easy, also it might be the o ring where the high pressure hose attaches.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

you can get a kit and rebuild the PS pump yourself easy, also it might be the o ring where the high pressure hose attaches.

well, the shop replaced the power steering pump seal < a month ago stating it and the oil pan gasket were the sources of the oil leak. So I'd like them to fix it for free...going to see what they think about that first before getting my hands dirty.

[lostforawhile]

well, the shop replaced the power steering pump seal < a month ago stating it and the oil pan gasket were the sources of the oil leak. So I'd like them to fix it for free...going to see what they think about that first before getting my hands dirty.
there's more then just the seal,there's an o ring holding the case together,there's also a small o ring where the PS hose attaches to the pump.did they find out why it was leaking in the first place? wrong ps fluid? or did they just stick a seal on it and say it's fixed. this is why i fix stuff myself, i hate half assed stuff.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

there's more then just the seal,there's an o ring holding the case together,there's also a small o ring where the PS hose attaches to the pump.did they find out why it was leaking in the first place? wrong ps fluid? or did they just stick a seal on it and say it's fixed. this is why i fix stuff myself, i hate half assed stuff.

I'll check the receipt tonight when I get home from work. THese guys have done good honest work for me in the past. Hopefully, this is a one-off situation...it'd be a shame if they started over-billing/under-working customers given the economic climate.

Anyways, I usually like to fix stuff myself, but I've been pretty low on free time lately.

[russiankid]

there's more then just the seal,there's an o ring holding the case together,there's also a small o ring where the PS hose attaches to the pump.did they find out why it was leaking in the first place? wrong ps fluid? or did they just stick a seal on it and say it's fixed. this is why i fix stuff myself, i hate half assed stuff.

Theres more than that. Theres a seal for the two gears inside, a seal between the main body and back cover, and seal between main body and front cover. :cool:

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Theres more than that. Theres a seal for the two gears inside, a seal between the main body and back cover, and seal between main body and front cover. :cool:

how bad is it if I just remove PS? I only drive this car to work 2x per week and occasionally to run errands on the weekends...will I regret removing PS?


FYI: the metal bar with holes worked nicely for tightening the crank bolt. Ty again.

[lostforawhile]

how bad is it if I just remove PS? I only drive this car to work 2x per week and occasionally to run errands on the weekends...will I regret removing PS?


FYI: the metal bar with holes worked nicely for tightening the crank bolt. Ty again.
well you could just get the kit and rebuild it, it's not hard to do at all, if you put some old towels down,you could do it on your kitchen table. the main thing is laying out the parts so they go back in the correct location,like the rotors, but perfectly within someones capabilities at home.

[russiankid]

how bad is it if I just remove PS? I only drive this car to work 2x per week and occasionally to run errands on the weekends...will I regret removing PS?


FYI: the metal bar with holes worked nicely for tightening the crank bolt. Ty again.

How did you use that? I just had someone hold the brakes while the car was in 5th gear and used my breaker bar.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

yeah, I'm probably going to remove the PS soon and repair it later when I have more free time.

For now, everything is gravy with the exception of the oil pan gasket which I am going to monitor closely.

[2oodoor]

yeah, I'm probably going to remove the PS soon and repair it later when I have more free time.

For now, everything is gravy with the exception of the oil pan gasket which I am going to monitor closely.

actually not that bad just pull the belt off, I only missed it when parking or pulling in lots n driveways.. much better with power though.
my DX was leaking pretty good but it had usdm fluid in it, I swapped it to honda ps fluid (dealer) and it slowed the leak down to about nothing.
Not a fix for everyone but it seemed to work on this one for the time being.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

late update: after putting everything back together, I developed a belt squeal...so I had to take em off one by one until I was able to confirm the alternator belt was too loose.

also, while troubleshooting the loose belt, I found the PS leak (or at least I think I did)...it was coming from the connection between the PS unit and the output hose to the passenger side wheel. I cranked down on the bolts and gave them another 1.5 - 2 full turns and haven't seen a spot in the driveway yet. Feeling good about that, I went ahead and replaced the PS belt (very slightly frayed) and the AC belt (gunky w/ oil and debris).

so now all that is left is the oil pan gasket which to be completely honest, I'm becoming skeptical about that being the source of my very very tiny oil leak. I really think its coming from the breather hose that connects to the oil pan just below the oil filter. I'm going to sit on that for a while before I do anything drastic...if the leak picks up I'll re-engage.

quick question: do you have to remove the oil pan to replace the breather tube? or is it just a really really big pain in the ass?

I've got some work on the wife's mustang (trans filter/gasket/fluid change, brake fluid replacement, and tire rotation)...so once I'm done there, I'll come back over and prep for the master brake cylinder replacement on my baby.

[lostforawhile]

late update: after putting everything back together, I developed a belt squeal...so I had to take em off one by one until I was able to confirm the alternator belt was too loose.

also, while troubleshooting the loose belt, I found the PS leak (or at least I think I did)...it was coming from the connection between the PS unit and the output hose to the passenger side wheel. I cranked down on the bolts and gave them another 1.5 - 2 full turns and haven't seen a spot in the driveway yet. Feeling good about that, I went ahead and replaced the PS belt (very slightly frayed) and the AC belt (gunky w/ oil and debris).

so now all that is left is the oil pan gasket which to be completely honest, I'm becoming skeptical about that being the source of my very very tiny oil leak. I really think its coming from the breather hose that connects to the oil pan just below the oil filter. I'm going to sit on that for a while before I do anything drastic...if the leak picks up I'll re-engage.

quick question: do you have to remove the oil pan to replace the breather tube? or is it just a really really big pain in the ass?

I've got some work on the wife's mustang (trans filter/gasket/fluid change, brake fluid replacement, and tire rotation)...so once I'm done there, I'll come back over and prep for the master brake cylinder replacement on my baby.you don't need to pull the pan, it's just a rubber hose, you might have to cut the old one if it's hardened. as far as the PS leak, you might want to get a new o ring for that hose,the O ring goes on the piece that goes into the pump. tightening it willl fix it for now, but isn't a permanent solution. it should seal without that much torque since it's an o ring seal.

[russiankid]

O-rings are very cheap at the dealer.