Vaccum Box

[3rd Party]

has someone successfully removed one of these, and how did you go about doing it?? i've started on my removal, re routing all my vacuum hoses and so far the only problem i'm having is of course the vacuum advance...duuummb

[3rd Party]

Bump!

[lostforawhile]

search!!search!! search!! there are about a hundred threads and a complete sticky in carb tech!!

[3rd Party]

i guess i should've mentioned that this is for the EFI motor, not the carb'd motor...i figured posting a thread under the, "EFI Tech" category would give it away, but i suppose not. there are differences i'm assuming with removing the vacuum box in EFIs as opposed to carb'd motors, hince the reason i'm curious about removing the box in an EFI car, for the fact that there are certain sensors that require readings, like from the vacuum advance, et cetera

[russiankid]

Just convert to OBD1 and get rid of all that crapola.

[3rd Party]

and converting to OBD 1 i'm assuming is just a matter of a new ECU and distributor, or a whole new wiring harness for the car??

[Tdurr]

something like that... look for the obd1 guide.

[lostforawhile]

i guess i should've mentioned that this is for the EFI motor, not the carb'd motor...i figured posting a thread under the, "EFI Tech" category would give it away, but i suppose not. there are differences i'm assuming with removing the vacuum box in EFIs as opposed to carb'd motors, hince the reason i'm curious about removing the box in an EFI car, for the fact that there are certain sensors that require readings, like from the vacuum advance, et ceterasorry about that

[russiankid]

and converting to OBD 1 i'm assuming is just a matter of a new ECU and distributor, or a whole new wiring harness for the car??

Distributor, ecu, wiring, and a few other things. You don't change the whole harness but you do some rewiring.

[3rd Party]

probably need that adapter plate that doesn't exist, heh...

[ghettogeddy]

probably need that adapter plate that doesn't exist, heh...

bing bing

[Demon1024]

If your handy with a dremel and jb weld you can do anything

[89sei89dx]

click on my profile and go to posts of mine or pm me i dont have the lines anymore so i cant rEALLY DO A WRITE UP . BUT I EXPLAINED IT. sorry for caps lock it took me a day or 2... pretty easy and gave me a lil more top and bottom end and accelration. not hard to do. is good mod for extra performance and looks . i took apart black box and only kept the map sensor and the ignition controll module and then re routed the couple of lines that were left. i posted vacume diagrams too to help figure out where everything needs to gohttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1030080217.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1030080217a.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1030080026a.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1030080001.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1111081520b.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1108081620b.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0921081726.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/1111081521c.jpg

[89sei89dx]

im pretty sure the vacume advance is just re routed to ignition controll module inside black box.then to intake. i remove the module from the box

[3rd Party]

thanks a bunch! it's nice to finally have someone else who has done this same modification. right now the car runs like crap, so d0h

[89sei89dx]

ok. i looked... i took1 line and hooked it up to the intake and then to a t splitter . then from 1 of the ts lines to the front of the two vac lines on distributor. then from other line in tee to another t. and from one of that t to the piece on the thermostat with vac line. then from the other side of that t. i plugged vac line from there to the ignition controll module that was line 12 to a check valve.. was. and i didnt hook up ac idle boost so i unplugged that and check valve. and plugged the vac line into that on ig cont module. then other line out of ig cont module goes to the rear of the two distributar vac lines. and i hooked another vac line up to the map sensor and that was all. and i re routed any other vac lines that were necesary and not plugged. thats how i did it on my car and it worked for me and i still get 27 ish on the mpg and ... my car was noticibly quicker after vac line removal.

[3rd Party]

so you just need the ignition control module, and MAP sensor??

[89sei89dx]

thats what i have and my car is workin awesome and fast. i played around and in the end that is all i needed. also i found a lil bit of info on the preludepower. .ccom. not much but it helped someone there said that was all they had and so i checked a bit and lookd at the diagrams i posted above and then i color coded the diagrams and went to the car and started unpluggin stuff to see what affects it would have and re routed till i got it all cleaned up then . re routed again to clean up left over vac lines. and it worked awesome since then. recently i moved my underhood fuse box to where the black box was but im still gonna move it again to under the dash. that was also easy . just made like 34 wires a bit longer aand re routed fuse box wires to where the black box wires came out the fender

[89sei89dx]

mine is also an 87 so should be the same lines as yours. 88 89 have some different stuff on the intake so i dont know. but i got one of those too so i may just take vac lines off that too later and take pics as i do it

[3rd Party]

yeah, i just ran the MAP sensor into the throttle body, and the vacuum advance into ignition module

[89sei89dx]

yep.once all the vac lines are gone it makes the engine alot easier to figure out. less complicating to look at

[Tdurr]

So can one of you write up a clearer instructions on how to do this? I have been wanting to do it for the longest time...

[89sei89dx]

in the next couple days ill take pics of where all the lines hook up that i have left and maybe a video. so u can see how it runs. its good. maybe it will help. i wrote it up . is in my posts if u click on my name and go to my info/ my posts.. also i m sorry but not good at explaining stuff if im confusing

[Tdurr]

Finishing ur thoughts in your sentences would help lol. But yea pics and then the color coded diagrams explaining what is re-routed where would be the best.

[Rendon LX-i]

We have to do this to my car sam....

[3rd Party]

well i'm basically doing the whole, "trial and error" until i figure something that works, but so far as long as you have your MAP sensor vacuum lines, and ignition sensor vacuum lines you're fine. as long as you understand vacuum and what's required it's pretty much self explanatory

[Tdurr]

^^ explain "what is vaccum" and wuts required for the car to run. i might wanna do this Friday...

[3rd Party]

ok, well...these sensors obviously just require vacuum to get a reading for emissions crap mostly, but also the vacuum creates pressure, and that's required for the MAP sensor to get a full reading. also the vacuum advance is obviously apart of the ignition system, so it's best to just run the vacuum advance lines through the ignition sensor, and into the manifold. now the way i've been doing it so far is with the vacuum advance lines running into the ignition sensor, then out to the manifold. then with the map sensor i run it into the those two throttle body vacuum nipples at the top closest to the front of the motor, and run one back to the map sensor. but be creative, you might come up with your own system that works better.

[cygnus x-1]

Some more theory:

MAP stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure and vacuum is really just the inverse of this. You could think of vacuum as negative pressure but it can only go so far negative. Normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7PSI or 30in-Hg or 760mm-Hg, but also 0 PSI vacuum. This is a little confusing without some sort of illustration.

Anyway, manifold pressure is an indication of engine load and is used buy the ECU to determine how much fuel to inject into the cylinders. More pressure (less vacuum) means more load and more fuel. It's also used by the diaphragm on the distributor to control the amount of ignition timing advance. More pressure (less vacuum) means more load and LESS timing advance.

The engine can't live without the MAP sensor. The engine can live without vacuum advance but throttle response and fuel mileage will be lousy. Both of these can be connected directly to a port on the intake manifold.

The vacuum diaphragm on the distributor has two ports. The port closer to the distributor is for normal vacuum advance. The port farther away is for extra advance on cold starts and is controlled by that ignition control solenoid. You can most likely not use that one unless you live in a seriously cold climate. Or you can connect it straight to the manifold vacuum as well. I believe it only changes the timing by 4 degrees.

I'm not sure if these engines have a separate barometric pressure sensor or not. If there is one and you live in the mountains you will want to also leave that connected (to manifold vacuum) as it will let the engine adjust fueling for altitude changes.

C|

[3rd Party]

well Mr. cygnus x-1 you've given me just the right info to get the PGM-FI light to stay off, and the car to have decent throttle response. but still idles poorly, but that's something i can deal with

[3rd Party]

well i guess that i'm not doing it right, 'cause the light eventually came on again, and the car's bogging like hell

[Rendon LX-i]

i always get code 12 under boost on 4th gear but, i also have a plate on it...i hate vac lines. i know it wont get rid of my code but would be much nicer with out the vac lines there. IDK would it affect boost? i wouldnt think so.

Rendon

[3rd Party]

everyone prepare to laugh! i had the sensors i was using backwards, when i straightened it out it worked perfectly. i'm really only using the MAP sensor, but i have the vacuum advance hooked up to the ignition sensor, and the manifold as well. my throttle plunger had to get replaced with a longer vacuum line since for some reason having a short vacuum lane kept the idle above 1500 rpms even at operating temperature. but i've got it all worked out, and tomorrow i'm going to clean it up and take pictures so that if you choose to do this, you'll have a slight guide.

[3rd Party]

i always get code 12 under boost on 4th gear but, i also have a plate on it...i hate vac lines. i know it wont get rid of my code but would be much nicer with out the vac lines there. IDK would it affect boost? i wouldnt think so.

Rendon

first off, i don't know what code 12 is, secondly as long as your MAP sensor's hooked up to the manifold you shouldn't have any problems with boost. and if you've got no vacuum leaks you surely shouldn't have any problems with boost. but trial and error man, it's what got me where i'm at now.

[Rendon LX-i]

Oh i Know about what needs vac and what not....just wanted to make sure...power wise

[3rd Party]

yeah, i don't see why it wouldn't make the same power, if not just ever so slightly more since your motor's not forced to go through more vacuum lines. but let me know how it goes if you decide to do it, like i said i'll try to get pics up

[Tdurr]

So from what im reading, I only need a few things that run on vacuum to stay hooked up. The MAP, Advance, and something else(dono). But everything else can be removed? Using the diagrams and vacuum line #'s what ones need to say/be re routed and what ones can go?
ktnxbai.

[3rd Party]

the most important one is 21, that's your MAP sensor. i have mine hooked up to the same spot it was at on the TB before hand. 12's also important, you just run from the ignition sensor to the bottom vaccum advance nipple (using a T connection) you run it also to the manifold, so you've got one connection running both to the manifold, and the bottom connection of the vacuum advance. then you run a vacuum hose from the top connection on the vacuum advance to back to the ignition sensor and BINGO.

[Tdurr]

So You dont need the fast idle control, EGR, or CVC valves at at all? And two vacuum t's are needed, if im reading this right.
The Map sensor hooks up to the same thing, nothing changes besides routing of the hose, the ignition sensor gets hooked up to the top dist line this Gets a T that you hook the mani(doesnt matter wut nipple right?) and then you run the top vacuum line on the dizzy to the ignition sensor(im assuming there is 2 lines or im reading ur writing wrong lol)

That right? lol.

[3rd Party]

i don't use the fast idle control, EGR, or CVC lines at the moment. but i was saying that one of the ignition sensor lines goes from the sensor, T's off to the bottom nipple on the vacuum advance, and also to the manifold. the top nipple on the vacuum advance is more or less for when the car's cold starting, like if you live in colder climates, and that just hooks straight to the ignition sensor and no where else. so you really only need one T connector. the other thing i noticed too is the diaphragm for the throttle cable piece needs a longer hose so that your idle isn't over 1500 rpms. so cut like a 6" vacuum hose for the throttle diaphragm, and hook that into the manifold as well.

[import racer]

A Diagram Would Be Useful.i'd Like To Try This When It Gets Warmer.

[Rendon LX-i]

sam 88lxi89sei so some shit lol...He lives by me we could get together and see how this was done.

[Tdurr]

^^ do that, get a drawing up. lol. Ill wait to do this, i only got one contact and no vacuum line.

[89sei89dx]

on drivers side of intake i got 1 vac line that goes to the fuel pressure regulator, and one to the ?break? thing on firewall. and one that goes behind intake over to the distributor everything else on that side is plugged http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0219091614.jpg

and in the next pic i got the one that comes from behind the intake goes to the first T then to the bottom of the distributor(towards front of car). and from that first t it goes down to the 2nd T and from there into thermostat area plug towards front. my other plug on that was plugged when i got the car???then also from that 2nd T it goes to the ignition controll module. and the top line on the distributor goes to the ignition controll mod also http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091533b.jpg

then for the map sensor i just have it hooked up to the throttle body. and it has a t in line that i dont know why, so i left it
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091542.jpg
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0921081701.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0219091625c.jpg

[89sei89dx]

http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/distlines.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/ignitioncontrollmodule.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/mapsensor.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/morelinesview.jpg
this is the ignition controll modulehttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091529a.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091530.jpg
then the map. these are all i got still w/vacume lines
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091532.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091533.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0220091541.jpg

[89sei89dx]

i also still have some wires that need to be modified to coil and some other messy shit that looks bad. i hope this helps u all some. in these pics i have the module and map unplugged to get them into view better so u can see them and the vacume lines that plug into them. i had them hidden till today. they still needed to be moved and cleaned up some . so

[3rd Party]

did you have a hard time removing the metal box assembly inside the vacuum box holding all the sensors together?? mine were too tight to undo by hand with a fillips screwdriver

[89sei89dx]

yeah. those bolts/screws were tight as shit. but i got them off. a couple came off easy but others were like welded on. after i got them off i had to untangle the mess inside of there. .

[3rd Party]

ah, i needed a drill...also i noticed your car didn't have the two diaphragms on the intake manifold. how'd you manage that since one's on the throttle rotor, and the other i'm not sure what it does.

[cygnus x-1]

http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/morelinesview.jpg




You don't need that thermovalve on the thermostat housing now since you don't have anything connected to the other tap. So that's another tee you can remove.

Also, I thought not having the EGR connected would throw an ECU code? As I understand there is a position sensor that the ECU watches to see if the valve actually opens and closes. If it doesn't see that it should throw a code. Or so I thought.

C|

[Tdurr]

Thanks 89sei89dx, Ill go and check out my car sometime soon and see about getting this done. Maybe take some pics and make a how to. :)

[89sei89dx]

thanks for the info on the thermovalve, the one was plugged when i got the car so i left it that way and i wasnt sure about just plugging the other one also. i didnt think of it really.also my car threw the code 12(egr) since i got it. and what does the thermovalve do :beer:

[3rd Party]

negative, i've had mine unplugged for a week now and have no code thrown, or the PGM-FI light on. so i'd say we're clear for lift off...plus i plan on having a plate machined for the EGR, as well as others.

[turabaka]

negative, i've had mine unplugged for a week now and have no code thrown, or the PGM-FI light on. so i'd say we're clear for lift off...plus i plan on having a plate machined for the EGR, as well as others.

I've got a bit of scrap steel lying around. If you outline the shapes you need for me I'll use the grinder and drill to make you some block of plates like what I have for my manifold.

[Oldblueaccord]

probably need that adapter plate that doesn't exist, heh...


Yeah helpful ain't it that its so easy but there's no part to do it. Kinda like the "swap a b20" "h22 cant fit" spam thats floated around here for the last 5 years.

What are you trying to accomplish BTW? there is nothing wrong with the MAP sensor setup on our cars and I'm pretty sure OBD 1 uses one also/



wp

[3rd Party]

Yeah helpful ain't it that its so easy but there's no part to do it. Kinda like the "swap a b20" "h22 cant fit" spam thats floated around here for the last 5 years.

What are you trying to accomplish BTW? there is nothing wrong with the MAP sensor setup on our cars and I'm pretty sure OBD 1 uses one also/



wp

well i'm just trying to clean up my engine bay so there's not a bunch of useless shit laying around. most of the vacuum lines are for emissions crap that aren't in anyway detectable if you reroute things in the right way. and i still have my MAP sensor setup, as well as the ignition sensor setup. i plan on taking pictures of my change to the vacuum box just as our other friend did, 'cept i'm mounting my sensors to the firewall using, "L" brackets. so...patience, pictures will come. :D:D

[3rd Party]

I've got a bit of scrap steel lying around. If you outline the shapes you need for me I'll use the grinder and drill to make you some block of plates like what I have for my manifold.

yeah, Sunday lets try to get some measurements 'cause i'd love to remove that stupid piece and block it off. it's not like my car warms up as quick as it should with it on anyways. :lol::lol:

[Tdurr]

any update?

[cygnus x-1]

and what does the thermovalve do :beer:

I believe the thermovalve on the thermostat housing shuts off vacuum to the outer vacuum port on the distributor when the car warms up. But then FI engines also have that ignition solenoid which also seem to do that. So I guess I'm not completely sure, and at the moment I'm too lazy to study the diagram. :lol:

C|

[Tdurr]

hell, I might do this while i have the head off, that way ill have like 5 vac, lines to hook back up.

[3rd Party]

Yeah, this turned out to be a lot easier than I thought it'd be. I need to run the code on the computer since my PGM-FI light came on twice when cruising over 65-mph...reporting in soon with further info.

[89sei89dx]

u got any pics of it done . i wanna see what u did

[3rd Party]

u got any pics of it done . i wanna see what u did

Are you asking me?

[89sei89dx]

yeah. ive done it but i wanted to see it done on someone elses car on here.

[3rd Party]

yeah. ive done it but i wanted to see it done on someone elses car on here.

I'll see what I can do about getting some pictures up tomorrow, if the weather permits.

[89sei89dx]

thanks.

[3rd Party]

thanks.

Yeah, weather's been shitty the past couple days, otherwise my Delta cam would've been in the car by now, : D

[Tdurr]

Yeah, weather's been shitty the past couple days, otherwise my Delta cam would've been in the car by now, : D

ull like the cam. is it a 272? also, set ur timing before u take it for a spin, i didnt and dropped a valve lol...

[3rd Party]

it's a 260-grind, and the only thing needing to be, "reset" is the valve clearance

[turabaka]

ull like the cam. is it a 272? also, set ur timing before u take it for a spin, i didnt and dropped a valve lol...

yep, like 3rdparty said. He ended up going with a 260 like delta recommended, and I ended up going with a 272. No problems so far, and a bunch more power. No bottom end power though. took a bit of getting used to. Stalled it a few times and pissed off the people behind me.

[3rd Party]

yep, like 3rdparty said. He ended up going with a 260 like delta recommended, and I ended up going with a 272. No problems so far, and a bunch more power. No bottom end power though. took a bit of getting used to. Stalled it a few times and pissed off the people behind me.

haha, but that cam makes that A20 sound so fucking mean! :thumbup:

[turabaka]

haha, but that cam makes that A20 sound so fucking mean! :thumbup:

heh yeah it does. Lopey idle ftmfw :flash:

[Tdurr]

wait, i only have a lopey idle when its like below 40! lol its cool as shit, but once the car warms up it goes away...

[turabaka]

wait, i only have a lopey idle when its like below 40! lol its cool as shit, but once the car warms up it goes away...

well it's still below 40 all day here in Idaho. in fact I think it's just barely hit 41 at my house.

[danny nr crew]

dude this is fuckin helpful thanks im try this on my car maybe this summer or somthing

[3rd Party]

well i'm glad that my curiosity solved the problem of the vacuum box for the PGM-FI motors...much thanks to those who contributed ;)

[Tdurr]

well it's still below 40 all day here in Idaho. in fact I think it's just barely hit 41 at my house.

oh, well then... i guess thats why lol

[3rd Party]

yeah, i think the warmest it has gotten where i'm at is maybe 50-somethin'...and that was for one day.

[Joay]

Can has problem:

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/vacuumwtf.jpg

This is where I'm at. Car runs fine, but I get a CEL a couple minutes after it warms up. Nothing happens, car still runs normal, but I get a code 12 (EGR). I have the port on the EGR valve plugged. Do I need to plug something back in or will it keep doing this until I block the EGR off?

[import racer]

I'm confused mine doesn't have any sensor on the thermostat housing.does anyone have any better pics,these are a little hard to follow.whitch is the better way to do this.

[Joay]

These?

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/090607a.jpg

I did this yesterday and had Rendon and 89sei89dx's pictures all printed out, but honestly all I could get from them was theory. Rendon's walkthrough was for an 86 so my lines were all numbered differently, stuff was in different places etc. The best way, in my opinion, to go about this is to:

1) Take tons of pictures of the stock setup, make sure you know how to put everything back if you mess up
2) Unplug everything
3) Take the black box completely out of the car
4) Remove all the old lines including the hard lines by the injectors
5) Plug all of the open ports on the IM, EGR, and wherever else
6) Put the ICM and MAP sensor back in and run all-new lines

I spent like two hours just poking around trying to figure out the safest way to do it, but after I got impatient and just started ripping stuff out it went pretty easily.

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/090607b.jpg

[import racer]

Do you have any pics of yours,mine's an 88.

[import racer]

What about vacumn thing on drivers side of intake with the arm on it.where do that get vacumn from or doesn't it need to be hooked up.

[Joay]

Not sure what arm you're referring to, but here's a map of what I have now:

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/090607c.jpg

Also, for posterity:


This is where I'm at. Car runs fine, but I get a CEL a couple minutes after it warms up. Nothing happens, car still runs normal, but I get a code 12 (EGR). I have the port on the EGR valve plugged. Do I need to plug something back in or will it keep doing this until I block the EGR off?
I fixed this by jumping the two outside wires on the EGR plug (one hot wire and the ground). The car no longer throws a code and the light has stayed off so far. Thanks to turabaka for the idea.
:cheers:

[Civic Accord Honda]

These?

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/090607a.jpg

I did this yesterday and had Rendon and 89sei89dx's pictures all printed out, but honestly all I could get from them was theory. Rendon's walkthrough was for an 86 so my lines were all numbered differently, stuff was in different places etc. The best way, in my opinion, to go about this is to:

1) Take tons of pictures of the stock setup, make sure you know how to put everything back if you mess up
2) Unplug everything
3) Take the black box completely out of the car
5) Remove all the old lines including the hard lines by the injectors
4) Plug all of the open ports on the IM, EGR, and wherever else
5) Put the ICM and MAP sensorsback in and run all-new lines

I spent like two hours just poking around trying to figure out the safest way to do it, but after I got impatient and just started ripping stuff out it went pretty easily.

http://www.designbyjoey.com/ca6/090607b.jpg
that looks win!!! now paint the valve cover and wash the engine bay :D

[turabaka]

glad the EGR thing worked out for ya. :)

[Joay]

Well it didn't quite work... car kinda doesn't want to start without that plug in but now I know basically how I have to rig it up.


that looks win!!! now paint the valve cover and wash the engine bay :D
Oh yeah, my bay is nasty... you can't see it but there's blood all over the place in there from last night :lol:

[import racer]

What about the thing by the fpr,the vacumn went to a steel line whitch is no longer there.where does it go to.

[Civic Accord Honda]

Oh yeah, my bay is nasty... you can't see it but there's blood all over the place in there from last night :lol:

haha yeah mine allways get bloody too

[Joay]

What about the thing by the fpr,the vacumn went to a steel line whitch is no longer there.where does it go to.
The thing like two inches in front of the fpr? Kind of disc-shaped with a nipple coming off the front of it? I believe that's for the A/C idle boost, but I have it capped off and my A/C still works fine.

[import racer]

The vacumn pull off on the end of intake,i think it opens a flap in the intake.

[Rendon LX-i]

its wierd when you unplug the egr the car wont start. idk if is part of the circiut or something....

[Civic Accord Honda]

mine started without it :S

[Joay]

My theory is that it needs a different voltage when it's running than when it starts, because I can unplug it once it starts without jumping it or anything and it runs fine.

[Tdurr]

i have my egr unplugged and it starts fine if its cold. but hot starts take a few seconds(like 7-8 secs of cranking)

Joay is right about going about this tho. I pulled everything out, then ran what i needed.

I need to go back over everything and hide the lines better. Ill make a diagram showing how everything is hooked up soon.

[Joay]

I can get it to start without the EGR plugged in, but it trips the CEL. The problem is that if I jump the wires on the plug (5V when the car's on and/or running) the CEL goes away but it won't start. I did some research and apparently most people just block the EGR off, then put the valve back on top of the plate and run the vacuum and plug.

[import racer]

There is vacumn on the egr?didn't see any hose going to it.

[Joay]

It's supposed to have a vacuum hose, yours may have been taken off at some point. Even if the hose isn't there the nipple is visible, comes off the front-left side of the valve as you're looking at the engine.

[Civic Accord Honda]

I can get it to start without the EGR plugged in, but it trips the CEL. The problem is that if I jump the wires on the plug (5V when the car's on and/or running) the CEL goes away but it won't start. I did some research and apparently most people just block the EGR off, then put the valve back on top of the plate and run the vacuum and plug.

cel ftw tho u get that awesome safe mode tune were the car starts dumping petrol out the exhuast :lol:

[import racer]

Anyone know what the little vacumn can on the firewall is for?It's right next to the charcoal canister.

[Rendon LX-i]

ummmm intresting. SO jumping the plug itself after you unplug it. My egr blocked off and pluged on the vacum port.

Ill have to try this. no more cel would be nice as hell. so just run a wire from one end to other thats its? Dont have to be some kind of resistor or something?

[Joay]

If you jump the two outside wires on the EGR plug, the code will go away, but you can't start the car (or at least I can't). I tried basically the same thing with a few different resistors yesterday after measuring the resistance across that circuit but so far nothing has worked. I can start the car but the code comes back.

The problem is that the EGR isn't a static if this, then that system; it accepts inputs from a couple different sensors and decides what to do based on more than one value. What I'm trying to do is figure out where the EGR is with the engine off (probably wide open), then just blocking off all input to the valve (disconnecting it) and holding that value of resistance permanently so the car just doesn't think it has to make any adjustments. The CEL only comes on when the valve decides it's time to change something.

I think your engine is a little different than mine since I used your vacuum box pictures a lot (thanks, by the way) and most of my lines weren't quite the same as yours. Turabaka was able to block his shit off without causing a CEL so maybe the 88-89s are trickier than the older/carbed engines. Your shirt + stickers shipped out btw.

[Civic Accord Honda]

carb cars dont get a cel... and what i would do is wire thos egr wires up to a switch inside the car so u can switch it off to start it then switch it back on after u start it to turn the cel off ^_^

[import racer]

Is there anything else you need besides the icm and map if you automatic ,not 5-speed.

[Joay]

I can't think of anything the transmission would need vacuum for, but I don't know for sure. If you want to find out, just go unplug everything you can and try driving up the block. Did you find anything under your hood that wasn't already mentioned in this thread?

[import racer]

Well I took the black box out and hooked up the way that was posted.It seems to run fine with no codes.Fired right up too so i think everything is ok.can't drive the car yet as its got no rear brakes.Still workibg on this car so i'll have to let you know how it works when it's on the road.

[ArokASE88LXi]

and what i would do is wire thos egr wires up to a switch inside the car so u can switch it off to start it then switch it back on after u start it to turn the cel off ^_^

That would kinda be a cool inexpensive anti-theft system!

[Civic Accord Honda]

That would kinda be a cool inexpensive anti-theft system!

hell yeah, like use the ac button or defrost button or some random factory button that is no longer in use

[ArokASE88LXi]

The vacumn pull off on the end of intake,i think it opens a flap in the intake.

Was this ever answered for you? I think what your talking about is the device that opens the second set of butterflies in the intake. 88-89 had this, 86-87 did not. i'm not sure what exactly actuates this device as the engine, trans, and anything useful are no longer in the 88 as it has become my organ donor to my 86 ha ha ha

[ArokASE88LXi]

hell yeah, like use the ac button or defrost button or some random factory button that is no longer in use

that would be really cool too but all my buttons still work except for the damn defrost but i do need to get that fixed for this winter. I was thinking like a momentary push button that you would hold down while cranking and once it started you release it. no permanent off/on thing i dunno. but running it to a button like you said would be cool as phuck! i've seen peope do that to where they couldn't start the car unless their brights were on.

[Joay]

I think I've figured out a way to fix it, but it involves a lot more BS than it should. The stupid thing is a potentiometer so there's no simple way to do it.

[Tdurr]

SO i have my EGR hooked up, no vac to it and its not plugged in and no codes at all.*knock on wood*
am i doing it right?

[import racer]

So should the actuator be left closed or held open.

[Tdurr]

Good question, when ever i get around to it, im making some block off plates. so it wont matter to me.

[Rendon LX-i]

If you jump the two outside wires on the EGR plug, the code will go away, but you can't start the car (or at least I can't). I tried basically the same thing with a few different resistors yesterday after measuring the resistance across that circuit but so far nothing has worked. I can start the car but the code comes back.

The problem is that the EGR isn't a static if this, then that system; it accepts inputs from a couple different sensors and decides what to do based on more than one value. What I'm trying to do is figure out where the EGR is with the engine off (probably wide open), then just blocking off all input to the valve (disconnecting it) and holding that value of resistance permanently so the car just doesn't think it has to make any adjustments. The CEL only comes on when the valve decides it's time to change something.

I think your engine is a little different than mine since I used your vacuum box pictures a lot (thanks, by the way) and most of my lines weren't quite the same as yours. Turabaka was able to block his shit off without causing a CEL so maybe the 88-89s are trickier than the older/carbed engines. Your shirt + stickers shipped out btw.


Umm...well i would think that the plug wires are the same. Total of 4 correct?...so which wires do i jump. O no problem im not that very good at how tos but i try lol

[Joay]

I only have three wires: ground, and two hot. I have a spreadsheet of resistances and voltages when the engine's off/running/warmed up but none of it's really helpful. I talked to AccordB20A and he recommended I get an A20A4 ECU, which is what I plan to do.

But I'm retarded, so if you think you can figure it out by all means please give it a shot.

[Rendon LX-i]

ummmm thats off a 88/89? correct? with the 2seconderys? im asking since i have one of those...if so...

[Joay]

88 LX-i

[Rendon LX-i]

what would the ecu say?

[Joay]

What, mine or one from an A4? Mine's doing the code 12 shit atm.

[b20a86lude]

ok so if u did itbs and b20a wat should i do with it

[Joay]

With that setup you'd need to run new management like Crome or Hondata so you could just clear the ECU code from there I believe. Otherwise it'd be the same process.

[b20a86lude]

kool cause i just dont know wat i need for sensors for my b16 itb b20a

[b20a86lude]

can i get a clear pic of the icm .
do u think i still need the icm and map sensor with my setup.

[BoogerBurns]

Im pretty sure those are mandatory sensors to run FI. My 91 f150 had to have those two sensors to run, not much else.

[-DWM-]

This is all great information! I'm thinking about trying this when it gets nice outside again. Then maybe we can figure out to do with the Manifold Tuning Valve on the 88-89 FI engines.

[import racer]

Has anyone figured out the EGR removal yet.

[89accordvtec?]

anyone know what to do with the "auto cruise" on the end of the 89 lxi intake when doing this vacuum removal?

[lostforawhile]

huh? the cruise control isn't attached to the intake

[89accordvtec?]

i know. i looked at the vacuum diagram under the hood tho and it says the thing on the end of the intake is the "auto cruise". looks like whats on the end of the fuel rail only bigger and has a small arm coming out the back going to what looks like a small throttle spring. there's a vac line going from there to the black box.

[lostforawhile]

i know. i looked at the vacuum diagram under the hood tho and it says the thing on the end of the intake is the "auto cruise". looks like whats on the end of the fuel rail only bigger and has a small arm coming out the back going to what looks like a small throttle spring. there's a vac line going from there to the black box.

the cruise control is the large round thing on the drivers side, it's connected with a single vacuum hose to one of the metal lines, and it's plugged in, it connects to the cruise control pedal assembly with a cable.

[ShyBoyCA6]

the cruise control is the large round thing on the drivers side, it's connected with a single vacuum hose to one of the metal lines, and it's plugged in, it connects to the cruise control pedal assembly with a cable.
^^Correct

yeah but on the intake manifold when you take off that hose you will need it plugged.

[lostforawhile]

^^Correct

yeah but on the intake manifold when you take off that hose you will need it plugged.

it should be a small metal line right near the actuator, you just put a rubber vacuum block off cap on it. if the car doesn't have cruise factory, there's already a cap on the line, the line is there in all the cars.

[ShyBoyCA6]

yup thats pretty much it

[89accordvtec?]

<script src='http://img440.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=intakeautocruise.jpg' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript>http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4261/intakeautocruise.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/intakeautocruise.jpg/)</noscript>


kinda hard to read this in this pic but it says "to auto cruise"
<script src='http://img802.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=dscf0094.jpg' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript>http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/5570/dscf0094.jpg (http://img802.imageshack.us/i/dscf0094.jpg/)</noscript>

[lostforawhile]

<script src='http://img440.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=intakeautocruise.jpg' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript>http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4261/intakeautocruise.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/intakeautocruise.jpg/)</noscript>


kinda hard to read this in this pic but it says "to auto cruise"
<script src='http://img802.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=dscf0094.jpg' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript>http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/5570/dscf0094.jpg (http://img802.imageshack.us/i/dscf0094.jpg/)</noscript>thats pointing to the cruise control actuator, the big round thing, there's a single vaccume hose going to the manifold somewhere. thats the one you need to plug. why do you want to remove it anyway? it doesn't affect your performance, and it's nice to have.

[89accordvtec?]

my cruise control is out, plug is disconnected, cable is out. intake is plugged where the vac line went.

[lostforawhile]

I'm not sure of everything on the EFI cars, but what you circled is the actuator that controls the butterflies in the two stage intake manifold, you definitely want to keep that

[89accordvtec?]

doesnt work all that well, i think the switch on the clutch or brake is going out. but its an eyesore. and i want my engine bay as clean as possible.

any idea of how i can keep that actuator functioning if i remove the black box?

[lostforawhile]

doesnt work all that well, i think the switch on the clutch or brake is going out. but its an eyesore. and i want my engine bay as clean as possible.

any idea of how i can keep that actuator functioning if i remove the black box?
I'm not sure on that one, but I'm sure someone has it figured out, it opens the butterflies at a certain rpm to allow for better top end power

[89accordvtec?]

ahh, i guess i'll just plug it then and duct tape that shit open! HAHA! no. i'll try a little more searching. maybe someone thats done it will see this thread n shed a lil light on the subject. but at least i know what it does now. thanks.

[lostforawhile]

ahh, i guess i'll just plug it then and duct tape that shit open! HAHA! no. i'll try a little more searching. maybe someone thats done it will see this thread n shed a lil light on the subject. but at least i know what it does now. thanks.

what it does is close for better torque and response at lower rpm's and then allow the butterflies to be wide open for high rpm use. it's like having two intake manifolds at once. I would love to see someone hook one up to a stepper motor and controller to allow progressive operation at all rpms. all that would have to be done is use a TPS , then use the info from it to go to a programmable stepper motor controller, this would allow it to move progressively as rpms increase, not suddenly at one RPM,

[89accordvtec?]

vtec! but not quite. lol. doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[lostforawhile]

vtec! but not quite. lol. doesn't sound like a bad idea.

yea I think it could be closed more for low end torque, then open as rpm's increase, it would require a lot of mapping and dyno time though, there could be some power hidden in there, sometimes strange things show up on the dyno.

[89accordvtec?]

u just might be onto somethin there. could be a very popular mod if it works well enough.

[1987AccordLx-i]

i strongly advise not disconnecting the dual stage actuator circled in red in previous pics.... its for a better power curve... trust me ive done some testing and it doesnt feel as powerful as when the dual stage actuator is working

[lostforawhile]

i strongly advise not disconnecting the dual stage actuator circled in red in previous pics.... its for a better power curve... trust me ive done some testing and it doesnt feel as powerful as when the dual stage actuator is working

I wasn't suggesting getting rid of it, but setting up a throttle position sensor and stepper motor with controller, and mapping the horsepower and torque curves at the different settings. this would enable a controller to precisly control the butterflies at different throttle settings, with a possible overall horsepower or torque increase. A lot of newer performance cars are set up like this, when the car was new the technology wasn't good enough, even the FI computer is only 8 bit, most calculators are more powerful. but they had the right idea, just not the technology for more precise control. even the nightmare of a carb would have been great with electromechanical controls, vs. vaccume, and a wide band O2 sensor

[1987AccordLx-i]

I wasn't suggesting getting rid of it, but setting up a throttle position sensor and stepper motor with controller, and mapping the horsepower and torque curves at the different settings. this would enable a controller to precisly control the butterflies at different throttle settings, with a possible overall horsepower or torque increase. A lot of newer performance cars are set up like this, when the car was new the technology wasn't good enough, even the FI computer is only 8 bit, most calculators are more powerful. but they had the right idea, just not the technology for more precise control. even the nightmare of a carb would have been great with electromechanical controls, vs. vaccume, and a wide band O2 sensor

hmm basemapping with a stepper motor on the butterflies sounds like something that might give some results...

off topic... has anyone ever used those tornado fuel saver things? ive always wondered if they worked.... but at the same time i think they are garbage

[lostforawhile]

hmm basemapping with a stepper motor on the butterflies sounds like something that might give some results...

off topic... has anyone ever used those tornado fuel saver things? ive always wondered if they worked.... but at the same time i think they are garbagethe tornado thing is garbage, it's been tested many times and can even cause a slight loss in horsepower, has anyone seen the fords with the air filters with the velocity stack as part of the filter? i wonder if those would be a gain if used in a FI car as a cold air intake, they must do something because they are OEM designed in, the filter has the cone as part of it, I believe what they may do is stop a dead air spot in the front of the filter and allow the air to flow over the cone, stopping turbulence

[ShyBoyCA6]

ok so i read everything on this thread....so any difference in fuel and power wise? or still the same thing?

[89accordlxigentyers]

Ok so i just read everything on this post and im still lost... i have a short ram as you can see on my pic... but do i need to do away with the box in the fender since i have the short ram or can i just keep the box in the fender and everything will run fine??? if doing all of this adds hp and mpg im all in...

[CAWB352]

I can help anyone out just PM me until I get time to do a full write up. My car has no EGR, No cruise, No vacuum box and 2 thats right 2 vacuum lines in the whole system and makes 235 at the tires with a stock air box and stock exhaust including manifold. My car was originally intended for ITB but i converted it for personal use.

[TeamCynic702]

I took my box out in 45 mins, and that redline is a steady 7200.
Is there supposed to be black smoke coming out?
Because I get all smoke yet it turns black and white ?

[slowA20tog22]

I can help anyone out just PM me until I get time to do a full write up. My car has no EGR, No cruise, No vacuum box and 2 thats right 2 vacuum lines in the whole system and makes 235 at the tires with a stock air box and stock exhaust including manifold. My car was originally intended for ITB but i converted it for personal use.



what exactly is done to your car?

[premis77]

I'm not sure on that one, but I'm sure someone has it figured out, it opens the butterflies at a certain rpm to allow for better top end power

it really does not help at all. I had an 89' coupe a couple years ago, I tried taking the '' BYPASS VALVE BODY'' off and that did nothing. neither will taking all that crap off. if you are looking for a small power gain, what you need to do is get rid of the air conditioning pump, and that wont even get you all that much more power.