IMPORTANT!! oil info

[lostforawhile]

wanted to pass this on,and pass this on to anyone who has an older engine with solid rockers or solid lifters,the epa is removing the zinc/phosphorus additives that have been in oil forever, we need these additives in our oil to prevent metal to metal contact in the valve train, there is a lot of discussion about this on the hamb,which is a very old well respected hot rod site, this is a link to an additive they are recomending, you add four ounces of this at each oil change. this isn't some wonder additive, this is whats been removed from the oil. here's the link and i will add info as i hear about this,someone please add this as a sticky. http://www.zddplus.com/

[2ndGenGuy]

Does this apply to our cars as well? What about all the newer Hondas? They work the same way don't they?

[labeledsk8r]

Does this apply to our cars as well? What about all the newer Hondas? They work the same way don't they?

was about to say my gfs d16(non vtec) is set up almost exactly like the A

[ZeroLux]

You know, I had a feeling something like this was on the way. If you look at it from the car maker's standpoint I bet they are PUSHING for this change to happen. Why? It benefits them of course. Lots of people have older cars that will need this additive to continue operation, though unlike the good folks here, not many care to bother with things like that instead opting to just drive their car like it was any other. It will eventually break down, the cost of repair would be too high for some, and they would resort to looking for another car. The industry is counting on this because they are obviously out to sell more NEW cars. Since they are clearly hurting right now, I am imagining the plan is to find ways to phase out older vehicles from the road entirely, practically forcing what was once a good engine to break down due to the lack of these chemicals in the oil. I've been wondering how long it was going to take these corporations to find a reasonable way to hide behind the ever-so-popular veil of "environmentally friendly" causes to push these changes into effect to get older cars off the road quicker.

Why don't they just come out with it direct and say pre-OBDII cars aren't legal for registration anymore, it would certainly save time. It seems it's what they are trying to do anyway. My state dropped emissions testing for cars made prior to 1996 a few years ago. They don't even run the sniffer test anymore.

I personally will be looking in to this product more since I have no intentions of buying a new car anytime in the foreseeable future.

Maybe I'm just reading too far into this, but I had a hunch something like this was going to happen sooner or later. Anyone know if this will effect Royal Purple's line of engine oils?

Zero

[3rd Party]

i agree with you ZeroLux...they mind as well make pre-OBDII cars obsolete

[lostforawhile]

Does this apply to our cars as well? What about all the newer Hondas? They work the same way don't they?
pretty much anything pre obd2, i'm sure people will continue to make additives to replace it, there are way too many people with older cars and classics, i'm checking into bike oil too, most air cooled engines have the solid lifters. they will have to make some sort of oil for them, way too many on the road to not have an oil. if anybody has a solution it will be the air cooled VW guys, i'm going to buy some of the additive they are promoting on the hamb, it's been tried and tested and it puts the additves back in the oil. the good thing is there is a huge aftermarket for the hot rod guys, look at SEMA, they will have to have a solution to run their cars with solid lifters, it's the same thing our cars need.

[lostforawhile]

here's one link on the hamb, they were talking about synthetic oil vs regular, but some good discussion later on in the thread, about oils that will work, what oils still have the additive,which don't. we are in the same situation as the guys with solid lifters on traditional engines, the zinc phosphate is what keeps the tappets on the rockers from eating the cam lobes. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335317

[Rendon LX-i]

So this goes for oil as of synthentic oil or sae or all oils.....

[lostforawhile]

I'm going to order some of this it comes reccomended and it has the zinc. I remember the "green oils" in the eighties. they are better in these high revving engines with flat tappets for the cams. http://www.bradpennracing.com/

[lostforawhile]

So this goes for oil as of synthentic oil or sae or all oils.....
all oils except a few, the car manufactures are wanting the stuff removed,because the goverment wants converters to last longer and longer. it shortens the life of newer converters. so they say screw the older cars. i just posted a link to one oil the hot rod guys like and it has the additives. A lot of VW guys use it .

[Rendon LX-i]

What are the few....i use mobile 1 fully synthentic...Lol you got me all worryed now.

[lostforawhile]

I just called summit and they carry nothing with zinc phosphate, i contacted brad penn oils to find a distributor. this is such bs they are pulling this time. Summit says the same thing about the additive.

[lostforawhile]

What are the few....i use mobile 1 fully synthentic...Lol you got me all worryed now.you should be worried, i posted a link on the hamb a bit back, they list a few i'm checking in to the brad penn oil now. the synthetic won't help, the zinc phosphate is what keeps the tappets from eating the cam lobes, it sacrifices itself instead of the metal. been in oil for almost 70 years. the hot rods guys are furious about this, sneaky underhanded way to get our cars off of the road.we have the same problem with our tappets that they do with solid lifters.

[Rendon LX-i]

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg08239.html

Levels of zinc in oil.

[lostforawhile]

they are going to have to make some sort of bike oil with zinc or every harley on the road will stop running, so i'm going to look into that, basically right now, nothing you can buy at walmart or the auto parts stores has the zinc. best thing is to buy the additive and add it to the oil. anybody old enough to remember when castrol was green? i am,. used to be the best oil for these cars,not anymore. thats actually the reason the old logo was green. that was the zinc.

[mephi]

Just don't add too much of the stuff. It can cause problems then.

[clark_486]

this does seem a bit unfair.

[labeledsk8r]

pretty much anything pre obd2, i'm sure people will continue to make additives to replace it, there are way too many people with older cars and classics, i'm checking into bike oil too, most air cooled engines have the solid lifters. they will have to make some sort of oil for them, way too many on the road to not have an oil. if anybody has a solution it will be the air cooled VW guys, i'm going to buy some of the additive they are promoting on the hamb, it's been tried and tested and it puts the additves back in the oil. the good thing is there is a huge aftermarket for the hot rod guys, look at SEMA, they will have to have a solution to run their cars with solid lifters, it's the same thing our cars need.

the pre obdII is not a good way to put it. like i said my girls D motor(atleast all non vtec ones) have solid lifters, this is a obdII car and was built obdII since 96, alot of companys have solid lifters in cars up till mayby 02-03? this all just sounds kinda bullshit...america is allready in debt why would they find more reasons to make everyone need new cars etc etc

[lostforawhile]

the pre obdII is not a good way to put it. like i said my girls D motor(atleast all non vtec ones) have solid lifters, this is a obdII car and was built obdII since 96, alot of companys have solid lifters in cars up till mayby 02-03? this all just sounds kinda bullshit...america is allready in debt why would they find more reasons to make everyone need new cars etc etc
the oil comanies are trying to play it off, but a lot of people with older cars have seen accelerated wear on cam lobes and solid tappetts as well as solid lifters there have been a number of tech articles in hot rod magazine and other well know publications, they have done tests. the zinc that is removed is the largest metal particle in the oil, it forms a barrier between the cam lobes and the tappets. they have been gradually taking it out, now the epa wants it all out. they say anything pre obd2, the later cars have metals in the valve train that are designed to run without the zinc. they say obd2 because the converters were designed to last longer and not be compatible with the zinc containing oils. it's not BS a lot of people are pissed as hell,because they can't run oils they have for years,due to valve train damage.

[lostforawhile]

like i said before,there is a huge hot rod and performance crowd, they have the same problem with solid lifters that we do with flat tappets, also the vw guys need the zinc really bad too, I'm sure there will be a solution, there is a link to an additive the guys at the hamb reccomend. I think castrol is going to make an oil with zinc for this reason. You need to be aware of whast going on. the oil companies can say the oil meets the requirments of older engines,but the amount of zinc phosphate is so small now, that it won't last the life of the oil. the metals sacrifice themselves to protect your valve train,once they are gone,they are gone from the oil.

[lostforawhile]

Ok i called them i can get it directly from the manufacturer 46 dollars a case, plus 15 dollars shipping, not bad at all,that's 12 quarts. thats not much more then the syntec blend i'm running now. this is actually made at the old Kendall refinery in pennsylvania, from the original kendall wells. not sure if anyone else is old enough to remember but kendall was a dam good oil in the day. This is basically the same thing. these old japanese engines loved the original stuff.

[lostforawhile]

Ok i called them i can get it directly from the manufacturer 46 dollars a case, plus 15 dollars shipping, not bad at all,that's 12 quarts. thats not much more then the syntec blend i'm running now. this is actually made at the old Kendall refinery in pennsylvania, from the original kendall wells. not sure if anyone else is old enough to remember but kendall was a dam good oil in the day. This is basically the same thing. these old japanese engines loved the original stuff.
i'll see how many times it takes to go through with a data base error each time.

[2ndGenGuy]

I don't think any Honda engines have lifters. Just rockers. And I don't recall any with Hydraulic adjustments or anything...

I'm still confused though. My friend's K20A3 has "solid rockers." And by that, I mean they're not roller rockers. I think there are a few Honda engines with roller rockers, but I think that the majority are just traditional rockers. Is there something with the newer rockers that is different? Different materials or something?

[carotman]

I brought this issue to our local club last year. So far, I've been using MOTUL oil and never experienced any problem.

I think the ones that will suffer the most will be people with really stiff valve springs and high lift cams.

[2ndGenGuy]

the later cars have metals in the valve train that are designed to run without the zinc

Oh I see now. Hmm. Well if you have an 81 or older, you know that the cams on these wear out and break anyways. :)

[Vanilla Sky]

Diesel oils will still have zinc. That means Mobil Delvac and Shell RotellaT would both still retain the zinc additive package.

The sky isn't falling, guys. Heavy duty and motorcycle oils will still have the zinc, and if not, there will be an additive. You can still buy lead substitute at Wal-Mart.

[2ndGenGuy]

Has Zinc been removed from Engine Oils?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx



Question:
Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils?
I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two separate racing engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help?
-- Randy Lovejoy, Americas, GA

Answer:
The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf).

[lostforawhile]

I know the sky isn't falling but this info needs to be passed on so we can continue to adjust the oil we use to deal with this. heres a quote from the HAMB
Originally Posted by hotroddon st
The Mobil 1 racing oil still has a very high content of Zinc and Phosperous. The 15w50 regular Mobil 1 also has very high levels. I still run these oils in all my stuff that I care about.
thank you for the info, i'm passing on this info to the site i belong to with the old imports, we all have flat tappets on our cams so this is a major concern to all of us. This site is always great on these topics and issues that come up. we are in the same boat as the guys who run solid lifters. been the same proven design since the seventies, now the oil companies have thrown a wrench in the works,or the valve train in this case. i'll keep this updated, there is always a group of guys on there who watch the oils carefully and it's simply a matter of adjusting as needed. right now the mobile one racing oil is good, the rotella has actually had a lot of zinc removed so it's not as good as it was. I'm going to get a case of the brad Penn oil, it's the same as the old kendall oil, which was a dam good oil. A lot of oil manufactures are claiming it doesn't matter but a lot of guys are seeing damage. I tend to believe them over corporate america. they are the guys building the engines and them being damaged.

[2ndGenGuy]

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group

[lostforawhile]

I tend to listen to the guys who have spent a ton of time building their engines and are seeing damage first hand. the zinc phosphorus is also an extreme pressure anti wear additive,thats what keeps the rockers from eating the cam lobes. I'm just going to keep an eye on the oils and see what happens. these cars were built to use the oil oils that had the zinc content a lot higher. the main reason they are getting rid of it, is the goverment wants converters that last a lot longer. I'm sure they will have oils for bikes with the zinc in it, they have to nearly every harley on the road requires it. of course the oil comapanies say it's compatible, the automakers have them in their back pocket. the fact is the zinc gets used up, there is not enough left in the oil to last the life of the oil anymore.

[Tdurr]

good stuff here. I linked this page to a bigger website on the southside. Hopefully this will spark some solid info on the net. Ill deff be checking in on this everytime i get on.

[2ndGenGuy]

So you're saying that car manufacturers are trying to wear out their old cars to sell new cars? Who is going to buy a new car from the same brand if their old ones wore out prematurely? Seems like suicide to me.

And what are the oil companies going to get out of people building engines that wear out with their oils?

[lostforawhile]

So you're saying that car manufacturers are trying to wear out their old cars to sell new cars? Who is going to buy a new car from the same brand if their old ones wore out prematurely? Seems like suicide to me.

And what are the oil companies going to get out of people building engines that wear out with their oils?
na the oil companies are catering to the car companies they are required to make converters that last longer and longer, so the zinc had to go, I'm sure there will be oils compatible, but it's important to watch with these older engines. the car companies want the older cars off the road, then you are forced to buy a new one. it's afact that the guys with older engines are seeing more and more damage as the zinc and phosphurus levels drop, it's only going to get worse. best thing to do is use the additive, or find an oil with a good level in it, you'll just have to be very careful about what oils get used. most people don't even care they dump in whatever is cheapest.

[russiankid]

Would this apply to hydraulic lifters like on my BMW? Its OBDI.

[lostforawhile]

Would this apply to hydraulic lifters like on my BMW? Its OBDI.

it's mostly concerned with friction between flat surfaces, like the rocker to cams on the accords or in older engines , that had solid lifters. the missing additive helps prevent wear between the surfaces. and yes the car companies have a very big interest in getting older cars off the roads. they want you to buy new not fix old.

[2ndGenGuy]

Is there any proof that the reduced ZDP levels are causing premature wear? If what you're saying is right, then what about all the cars that are on the road now that have been running oil with the reduced ZDP for the last 10-15 years? I'm going to need some more evidence before I jump on the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif ZOMG BUY PREMIUM OILS AND ADDITIVES OR YOUR CAR WILL DIE http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif bandwagon.

[russiankid]

Well thats bullshit. What if my old Accord just happens to purr like it just rolled off the assembly line? Not my fault, don't kill the damn thing for me fuckers.

[lostforawhile]

Is there any proof that the reduced ZDP levels are causing premature wear? If what you're saying is right, then what about all the cars that are on the road now that have been running oil with the reduced ZDP for the last 10-15 years? I'm going to need some more evidence before I jump on the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif ZOMG BUY PREMIUM OILS AND ADDITIVES OR YOUR CAR WILL DIE http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif bandwagon.it doesn't have to be a premium oil, there are still oils that have the additive out there. but the EPA has now decided it has to go in all new oils. there have been a lot of people who have been seeing more and more damage as the levels drop. A lot of performance engine builders will only use roller rockers now because of this. you can use any oil, but it's best to add the additive if it's one that is low on zinc. eventually i think it will be like cars that run leaded gas, and have to run lead substitute. it will come to a point of mixing up oils that have the additive added into them. i've been watching oils get worse and worse for older cars, it's just going to get a lot worse all at once. I'm probably going to order a couple of cases of Brad Penn, primamirly because it's really the old kendal oil, and it was one of the oils i always liked. one of the really outspoken groups on this are the air cooled vw guys, this additive is critical to their engines.

[lostforawhile]

This thread isn't to be a panic thing, it's for info on whats going on with this, just something that we all need to keep an eye on,whether it's finding compatible oils, or using additives or whatever we need to do. :D

[russiankid]

Is it me or this is really focused on performance engines? If you're running a performance engine, you shouldn't be cheaping out on oil in the first place.

Also, whats the difference between cam lobes rolling around to roller rockers in the oil? If the cam lobes will wear down, which are round, than roller rockers will wear down.

[lostforawhile]

Is it me or this is really focused on performance engines? If you're running a performance engine, you shouldn't be cheaping out on oil in the first place.

Also, whats the difference between cam lobes rolling around to roller rockers in the oil? If the cam lobes will wear down, which are round, than roller rockers will wear down.roller rockers have a lot less friction, they roll on the cams surface rather then scrape on it. on flat rockers like our cars, there is a lot of friction between the flat part of the rocker and the cam. the cam is really pressing on the flat area with a lot of force. it gets a lot worse if you have a different cam or stronger springs. as far as performance engines, in the domestic market, these would be considered performance engines if they had been built by american companies. they are high revving and have dual valve springs and soilid rockers.

[Vanilla Sky]

You really shouldn't be building a flat-tappet motor anyway. Roller is the way to go. Less friction and better wear characteristics.

[cygnus x-1]

Oh wow. Just last week I stopped by the local speed shop to see what the story was with my header (long sad story for another day) and I happened to ask the guy what the deal was with all these cases of oil he had sitting around the shop. So he proceeds into this story about how this particular oil is the last one to have the old levels of zinc additives. Well guess what brand it was? Brad Penn! The green oil!

So his take was pretty much what has been discussed so far, except that according to him the zinc phosphate levels in oils changed significantly at least a year ago. He said about a year ago they had built a couple solid cam follower engines that trashed their cams almost immediately during break in, and that they couldn't find any other cause since they had built these same engines before and not had a problem. Since then they have switched to using the Penn Grade oil during break in and haven't had a single problem since. I mentioned to him that my old Honda engine had solid followers and that I hadn't had a problem yet, and he said that from his experience it was only at break in where you might have a problem. Once the cam is worn in to the followers you can use regular oil and it should be ok.

I don't recall anyone on this board trashing a new cam so I'm guessing we are probably ok for now (not that that's even remotely a large enough sample size, but it's something). Although as a safety measure it might be a good idea to use a high ZDP content oil during engine break in or when replacing a cam.

As I recall the shop here was selling the Brad Penn stuff for like $5/qt, which is about what Mobil 1 synthetic goes for. I think for the next oil change on the Prelude I might try some just for giggles.

C|

[turabaka]

has any talked to bisimoto about making roller rockers for out cars, or is he only going to be making cams?

[cygnus x-1]

You really shouldn't be building a flat-tappet motor anyway. Roller is the way to go. Less friction and better wear characteristics.

If you have that option... which we don't.

Maybe if Bisi' gets busy* (pun acknowledged!) and makes us some roller rockers we would buy them!

C|


* No disrespect to Bisi' of course. I'm sure he's plenty busy with more lucrative markets than the miniscule number of A20 enthusiasts.

[lostforawhile]

you can get a case of 12 from engine pro for 45 plus 15 dollars freight. as far as I know the EPA rules don't apply to racing oils, so it might have to be those from now on. they will probably have the standard warning about pollution control vechicles though.

[Tdurr]

i put in a cam not too long ago, and when i was talking to the delta ppl on the phone, they told me to go buy some zinc additive to put in the car for the breakin period. I deff did that and the car is running fine still. Also, summit does sell some additive stuff, i saw it in my new mag I got from them last night. Ill post up the part number later when i can.

[MessyHonda]

i put in a cam not too long ago, and when i was talking to the delta ppl on the phone, they told me to go buy some zinc additive to put in the car for the breakin period. I deff did that and the car is running fine still. Also, summit does sell some additive stuff, i saw it in my new mag I got from them last night. Ill post up the part number later when i can.

i was reading mine yesterday too

[cubert]

has any talked to bisimoto about making roller rockers for out cars, or is he only going to be making cams?


If you have that option... which we don't.

Maybe if Bisi' gets busy* (pun acknowledged!) and makes us some roller rockers we would buy them!

C|


* No disrespect to Bisi' of course. I'm sure he's plenty busy with more lucrative markets than the miniscule number of A20 enthusiasts.

Has anyone purchased a bisi cam yet? I dunno if he would wanna produce something like that if he isnt even selling the cams that hes making.

[turabaka]

To be honest I don't really need the cams, but if he made roller rockers and valve springs I'd buy them for sure. I'm really hoping that Bisi's working on those for us.

[gp02a0083]

lol i got plenty of zinc oxides and phosphates sitting in the locker in my lab lol

[automan9482]

I hate to revive an old thread, but this is good stuff, & seems extremely important!
I read thru this and as best I can figure the information is ambiguous.
To worry or not to worry?? To keep dumping in the same ol' same ol', or scramble for a better brand? Is a "better" brand even a possibility now?
I am strongly inclined to agree with those who say this may be a ploy to remove our old cars from the map, regardless if purposefully or inadvertantly. From what I see here, by now most if not all commercial oils are without this zinc phospate additive.
SOOOOO.......
Does it matter if I keep using a Hi-Mi semi-synthetic, like Castrol GTX 75K+ or Valvoline 75K+ if I use the zinc additive?
What zinc additives are commercially available besides the ZDDPlus linked to herein? Anything? I'll buy the shit by the truckloads if that's what it takes, and fuck Detroit.
My '82 Lude and '89 Accord would appreciate the knowledge, as I suspect my '93 Accord would as well.
Also, does this apply to something newer, say, a '00 VW Jetta 2.0L, or a '99 Dakota Magnum V6 ?

[turabaka]

I hate to revive an old thread, but this is good stuff, & seems extremely important!
I read thru this and as best I can figure the information is ambiguous.
To worry or not to worry?? To keep dumping in the same ol' same ol', or scramble for a better brand? Is a "better" brand even a possibility now?
I am strongly inclined to agree with those who say this may be a ploy to remove our old cars from the map, regardless if purposefully or inadvertantly. From what I see here, by now most if not all commercial oils are without this zinc phospate additive.
SOOOOO.......
Does it matter if I keep using a Hi-Mi semi-synthetic, like Castrol GTX 75K+ or Valvoline 75K+ if I use the zinc additive?
What zinc additives are commercially available besides the ZDDPlus linked to herein? Anything? I'll buy the shit by the truckloads if that's what it takes, and fuck Detroit.
My '82 Lude and '89 Accord would appreciate the knowledge, as I suspect my '93 Accord would as well.
Also, does this apply to something newer, say, a '00 VW Jetta 2.0L, or a '99 Dakota Magnum V6 ?

The zync and phosphorus thing really only applies to cars with flat tappet cams or pushrods. So newer cars shouldn't be affected. Just the older stuff.

As far as additives I'm using redline's engine oil break in additive. There's a few other companies that make break in additives that are basically just a zinc and phosphorus additive. Lucas, and Redline both make one, and there's a few others, but I can't remember who.

[automan9482]

Thanks for the feedback turabaka!
So I should only be concerned about oil additives for the MK1 'Lude if I read that right?
Would it hurt to add this to OTC oils for the ' 89 & '93 Accord or does it not apply? (Are they flat tappet design or no?)

[turabaka]

Thanks for the feedback turabaka!
So I should only be concerned about oil additives for the MK1 'Lude if I read that right?
Would it hurt to add this to OTC oils for the ' 89 & '93 Accord or does it not apply? (Are they flat tappet design or no?)

89 is a 3gee so yes you should. I have no idea for the 93. What style rockers do they have?

[automan9482]

I don't know exactly for the '93, but I assume if it's a hydraulic design, then it should be ok.

[ecogabriel]

It seems that they want us out.

They could not get us with "cash for clunkers"... too good fuel economy. Detroit's gas-guzzler dinosaurs are going (not very old ones because they may not last that long)

Many people don't know about this and their engines will be ruined before their time is due. In fact, they have been reducing phosphor for a while so maybe a few have already gone to the crusher because of this.

I'll keep using Rotella T for the accord and maybe extend it to my other clunkers as well. Its main use is for diesel engines but it is oriented to be a "fleet engine oil" so it works with gasoline engines as well (API SL).
If I move to a colder climate (a possibility next year) I'll shift to the synthetic version that is 5w40.

Go the additives route or get a different oil if you want the valvetrain to last. Shell has a FAQ (link below); I found it useful.

I hate when people is mislead in such ways. A label warning customers about this should be mandatory... our cars may be 'clunkers" but it's nobody's business right?

EPA: go f... y...self!

http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert.html

[Rendon LX-i]

valvoline makes a racing oil that is really high on zince and something esle...my buddy uses it....even has a bright sticker saying high zince but its not full syth. just SAE racing oil......only 4.85 a qt....something im considering

[ecogabriel]

I know the sky isn't falling but this info needs to be passed on so we can continue to adjust the oil we use to deal with this. heres a quote from the HAMB i'll keep this updated, there is always a group of guys on there who watch the oils carefully and it's simply a matter of adjusting as needed. right now the mobile one racing oil is good, the rotella has actually had a lot of zinc removed so it's not as good as it was. I'm going to get a case of the brad Penn oil, it's the same as the old kendall oil, which was a dam good oil. A lot of oil manufactures are claiming it doesn't matter but a lot of guys are seeing damage. I tend to believe them over corporate america. they are the guys building the engines and them being damaged.

And I was using Rotella T (15w40). The lower phosphor content applies to the synthetic too? ... any idea how well the other diesel/gas oils (Castrol, Mobil) perform in the additives department? I just want to keep it simple; I want to keep the car running for as long as possible without having to become a chemist...

Thanks a million for the info.... and wonderful carburetor setup! I have not seen a SU-type carburetor since my days of tinkering with a Hillman Avenger...

[Tdurr]

still using royal purple...

[cygnus x-1]

I think you guys are over reacting a little. I talked to the guy at the local hot rod shop here, who has personal experience with trashing flat tappet cams from lack of zinc additives (they trashed a few). He said that the zinc additives are only an issue during initial break in. After the cam is worn in you can use regular oil and it will be fine.

C|

[Rendon LX-i]

lol thats what i figured bro....thanks for putting that out...i didnt want to say suck a thing then start a war up in this bitch LOL.....initial break in and thats it....

[lostforawhile]

lol thats what i figured bro....thanks for putting that out...i didnt want to say suck a thing then start a war up in this bitch LOL.....initial break in and thats it....no wars don't worry just passing on the info from the hot rod side where they are seeing physical damage from the lack of the additive. flat tappets are flat tappets whether in an old hot rod or an old japanese car,they work the same way and have the same problems. Still going to try the Brad Penn oil just because the old Kendall was great stuff, same thing under a different name. like I said earlier, this post is not the sky is falling, it's to stay informed on the deal with the oil, car guys always adapt, and that's what this is about.

[lostforawhile]

And I was using Rotella T (15w40). The lower phosphor content applies to the synthetic too? ... any idea how well the other diesel/gas oils (Castrol, Mobil) perform in the additives department? I just want to keep it simple; I want to keep the car running for as long as possible without having to become a chemist...

Thanks a million for the info.... and wonderful carburetor setup! I have not seen a SU-type carburetor since my days of tinkering with a Hillman Avenger...thanks i hope to get it running within the next six months. just got back to working on it again after a couple of years.

[Ichiban]

It seems that they want us out.

They could not get us with "cash for clunkers"... too good fuel economy. Detroit's gas-guzzler dinosaurs are going (not very old ones because they may not last that long)

Many people don't know about this and their engines will be ruined before their time is due. In fact, they have been reducing phosphor for a while so maybe a few have already gone to the crusher because of this.

I'll keep using Rotella T for the accord and maybe extend it to my other clunkers as well. Its main use is for diesel engines but it is oriented to be a "fleet engine oil" so it works with gasoline engines as well (API SL).
If I move to a colder climate (a possibility next year) I'll shift to the synthetic version that is 5w40.

Go the additives route or get a different oil if you want the valvetrain to last. Shell has a FAQ (link below); I found it useful.

I hate when people is mislead in such ways. A label warning customers about this should be mandatory... our cars may be 'clunkers" but it's nobody's business right?

EPA: go f... y...self!

http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert.html


I actually just filled my B20A with Shell Rotella 10w-30. The Rotella 15w-40 keeps the inside of my Toyota 22R spotlessly clean.

[cygnus x-1]

no wars don't worry just passing on the info from the hot rod side where they are seeing physical damage from the lack of the additive. flat tappets are flat tappets whether in an old hot rod or an old japanese car,they work the same way and have the same problems. Still going to try the Brad Penn oil just because the old Kendall was great stuff, same thing under a different name. like I said earlier, this post is not the sky is falling, it's to stay informed on the deal with the oil, car guys always adapt, and that's what this is about.


That's how we got to talking about it in the first place. They had a bunch of boxes of Brad Penn oil sitting there and I asked about it because I had never heard of it. So the guy starts telling me about ZDDP and how they ruined a few cams until they figured out what was going on. I don't remember what engines they were working on, old Mopar's I think. I told the guy my old Honda had flat tappets and he said I would already know if there was a problem. He said the ones they toasted were gone in minutes.

I know for one thing, if I ever do another A20 rebuild or get a new cam I'm definitely going to pick up some of the BP oil. Just for peace of mind if nothing else.

C|

[2ndGenGuy]

What about reground cams? I put a regrind in my EK1 when I rebuilt it, and everything is ok using normal oil. Or it seems okay anyways...

[Oldblueaccord]

Our cars don't use hydraulic lifters on the cam so there's little to worry about. The spring pressures are so light I don't think there would be any problem no matter what you use. Only problem i see is with 15w-40 oils is there thick esp when cold and most people don't let the cars run 20 secs cold before there "off to the races". Almost all your wear on a cars motor is on start up so this can be a longgevity issue.

Majority of newer cars use roller lifters so again any oil will do. its that small amount of people like me that use regular cams with hydrualic lifters (non-rollers) and performance cams with high spring rates that have some concern. Its made me think about going back to a solid cam on my 440 or up to a roller cam setup if I change cams again.

wp

[Rendon LX-i]

bingo....very good info guys.....im going to start using amosoil or some shit or royal purple....thats good stuff

[ecogabriel]

I actually just filled my B20A with Shell Rotella 10w-30. The Rotella 15w-40 keeps the inside of my Toyota 22R spotlessly clean.

Rotella T 10w30 is nowhere to be found in GA; I looked for it but only found 15w40 on the shelves. It is OK to use here especially in summer; in winter is a little "heavy" but I let the car idle for a couple of minutes and then start driving without rushing it. Maybe 10w30 is stocked regularly where the weather is cold; I'd like to have the choice on viscosity myself (and not the vendor) though.

One of the reasons for using it is for keeping the engine clean; it was pretty clean inside when I got it. But it leaked oil so badly that it did not have time to produce any residue. I'd like to keep it clean.

[lostforawhile]

Our cars don't use hydraulic lifters on the cam so there's little to worry about. The spring pressures are so light I don't think there would be any problem no matter what you use. Only problem i see is with 15w-40 oils is there thick esp when cold and most people don't let the cars run 20 secs cold before there "off to the races". Almost all your wear on a cars motor is on start up so this can be a longgevity issue.

Majority of newer cars use roller lifters so again any oil will do. its that small amount of people like me that use regular cams with hydrualic lifters (non-rollers) and performance cams with high spring rates that have some concern. Its made me think about going back to a solid cam on my 440 or up to a roller cam setup if I change cams again.

wpthe difference is that we have higher rpms then a lot of larger displacement engines, it's still a lot of load between the follower and the cam, at higher speeds the oil likes to shear off of that area and you get wear,the zinc stays on the metal and sacrifices itself to protect the surfaces.

[steveko]

So,Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate is being removed too so called protect the catalytic convertor. But who cares about the valve train? That's disturbing.

Eastwood company sells an oil additive called ZDD Plus a bottle is $10 dollars.

Just more money too be spent the EPA has mandated this crap most likely because among other reasons enviormental issues and like someone else said to ween out the old cars.
Mabey too also,help put money towards the defecit we are facing?

[automan9482]

Just more money too be spent the EPA has mandated this crap most likely because among other reasons enviormental issues and like someone else said to ween out the old cars.
Mabey too also,help put money towards the defecit we are facing?

Any fort in a storm, in this case, whatever they can come up with to get a couple extra $ and maybe get you into that brand-new car they've been dying to sell you. I was at a Honda dealer last weekend, and was not impressed. 20 or so Accords, maybe as many Civics, and nothing that got over 33mpg, except the Insight, and not a single stick shift to be had.....very disappointing.

[automan9482]

*

[stat1K]

Any fort in a storm, in this case, whatever they can come up with to get a couple extra $ and maybe get you into that brand-new car they've been dying to sell you. I was at a Honda dealer last weekend, and was not impressed. 20 or so Accords, maybe as many Civics, and nothing that got over 33mpg, except the Insight, and not a single stick shift to be had.....very disappointing.

really they didn't have a single Honda Fit Base?

in our 2008 we get about 35 with mostly city, and about 37 highway. the little l15 is pretty efficient.

as for the oil i've been using the mobil 1 10w30 in my car and it's been good, granted i have a vtec head so maybe that's the cause.

[Vanilla Sky]

I think this gives us a reason to swap in a newer engine. That's what we should see this as.

[carotman]

I'm using Motul oil. Never had a problem so far.

I wouldn't bother with additives.

[Rendon LX-i]

zince is only needed if you have a new rebuild or say a all race motor...lets say you have 10,000 or even that.then you dont need it anymore..you can which to a syntech oils. as far as MY motor i been running mobil 1 for the longest time. never had a problem. Dont need to get all stressted over a small thing. can be ways around it quick status.


so only if you have a new cam or new valve train assembly then YES zince is need to break it in. BUT if your a20 or engine already with the stock valve train then you can use the oil you where using and youll be fine.

I know when i get my motor build im going to run nothing but vavloline racing oil that has lots of zine to break in my build. then switch over back to mobil 1

[Ichiban]

Rotella T 10w30 is nowhere to be found in GA; I looked for it but only found 15w40 on the shelves. It is OK to use here especially in summer; in winter is a little "heavy" but I let the car idle for a couple of minutes and then start driving without rushing it. Maybe 10w30 is stocked regularly where the weather is cold; I'd like to have the choice on viscosity myself (and not the vendor) though.

One of the reasons for using it is for keeping the engine clean; it was pretty clean inside when I got it. But it leaked oil so badly that it did not have time to produce any residue. I'd like to keep it clean.

Would you like me to buy and ship you a case?:rockon:

[automan9482]

really they didn't have a single Honda Fit Base?

in our 2008 we get about 35 with mostly city, and about 37 highway. the little l15 is pretty efficient.

They didn't have any base Fits; there were 6 or so, all loaded with AT's. The sticker said 33-38, but nothing with a regular gas engine got over 33mpg. The V6 Accord was at 28-32. The selection was small, but I still felt a twinge of regret there wasn't a single manual to be had, not even the Civic Si coupe.

[ecogabriel]

Would you like me to buy and ship you a case?:rockon:

I think it would cost a lot in shipping so probably it is not worth it. Thanks a lot anyway.

Besides, I may just buy the full-synthetic Rotella T that is 5w40. The "5" should do the trick for starts in very cold weather.

[DBMaster]

I've been using Rotella-T synthetic 5W-40. I have seen a definite decrease in oil consumption past the valve stems and guides with it so that's an added plus.

[Ichiban]

[QUOTE=DBMaster;973765]I've been using Rotella-T synthetic 5W-40. [QUOTE]

Wow, I had no clue 5w-40 Rotella was available! What's the application?

[ecogabriel]

[QUOTE=DBMaster;973765]I've been using Rotella-T synthetic 5W-40. QUOTE]

Wow, I had no clue 5w-40 Rotella was available! What's the application?

Rotella T 5w40 is a synthetic oil with the same application of the conventional Rotella -diesel and gasoline engines. API CI-4 plus for diesels and SL for gasoline engines.

Because it is full synthetic is more expensive than the conventional one. Quart per quart is probably as expensive as Mobil 1.

As for quality, besides its normal application -diesel engines- those oils are being used in motorbikes.
From the discussions in bike forums it seems that it performs as good bike-only oils.

Honda bikes forum
http://www.fireblades.org/forums/general-discussion/61110-shell-rotella-synthetic-full-analysis.html
Kawasaki bikes
http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/forum/kawasaki-cruisers/30168-rotella-t-5w-40-synthetic-vn800a.html