Wanna go with bigger wheels? Better get aftermarket studs!

[bullard123]

Anyone else had this happen? Lost 3 out of 4 studs!:eek:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4015/brokenstuds1.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6585/brokenstud2.jpg

[MessyHonda]

your b20 is just a beast....haha...time to upgrade to ARP studs

[russiankid]

Reason you lost them is because they're stock 21 year old studs. I have brand new studs up front and the rear(except one side).

[LX-incredible]

I've never had a problem...

Judging by the center of that hub, it's newer chinese garbage.

[Hauntd ca3]

i've only ever seen wheel studs break coz of over tightening.
diff offset wheel can stuff wheel bearings a bit quicker but never seen studs break like that before

[Civic Accord Honda]

extended studs FTW!!! problem is stock is too short for the fatter base of aftermarket rims so the lugs dont get enough threads.

[AccordB20A]

indeed overtightening but never snapped by themselves

[ghettogeddy]

extended studs FTW!!! problem is stock is too short for the fatter base of aftermarket rims so the lugs dont get enough threads.

ya but that would only possibly cause them to strip off not snap

[89T]

all 3 broke off at the same time? It looks like the top left stud has been broke for awhile. Maybe it's a shadow.

Anyway judging the ring left on the caliper from the wheel it seems that the hub diameter on the wheel is too big.

The wheel should fit tight to the hub. If the wheel doesn't fit tight to the hub then all of the weight of the car sits solely on the studs.

I have seen this happen twice, one guy hit a big pot hole and snapped them off. The other snapped them on a hard launch with drag radials.

[Rendon LX-i]

Seems like there where loose and not tq. so they busted up...that an big wheels just a no no bro alot of stress...thats why i have 15..if you went that route and lower it man that would be sexy

[lostforawhile]

they fatique from being old, the ARP studs are cheap, get them, and the weight of the car is supposed to be on the studs, thats why it's so important to use the correct lug nuts for your wheels, if you use the wrong ones there is movement between the wheel and the stud and this same thing can happen. the lug nuts have to fit in the correct taper, this centers the wheel on the stud, and is what actually carries the load.

[Civic Accord Honda]

could look in to something like this
http://passwordjdm.com/Blox-Racing-Extended-Wheel-Studs-P599C0.aspx

[snoopyloopy]

no, never happened to me.

[A18A]

to think we rely on 16 of those little tiny pieces of metal to not fail at high speed :O

[bullard123]

Got these on order
http://www.velocityshop.com/pics/brand/arp/arp-wheelstuds-8.jpg

[bullard123]

And open end lug nuts are the only ones that will work for these studs

http://i18.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/98/a6/6986_1.JPG

[bullard123]

I think it was the stress of having the bigger 17 inch rims. The shorter lugs are only made to suppoprt a factory 14 or 15 inch rim which is why they gave out. The extra weight from the bigger rims caused too much stress on the lugs I guess. Im still impressed that they lasted 2 years on my car before they broke.

[bullard123]

all 3 broke off at the same time? It looks like the top left stud has been broke for awhile. Maybe it's a shadow.

Anyway judging the ring left on the caliper from the wheel it seems that the hub diameter on the wheel is too big.

The wheel should fit tight to the hub. If the wheel doesn't fit tight to the hub then all of the weight of the car sits solely on the studs.

I have seen this happen twice, one guy hit a big pot hole and snapped them off. The other snapped them on a hard launch with drag radials.
Yes the first one was broke for a while apparently.....And I thought the noise i heard was coming from the intermediate shaft lol. Would have never thought it would be the lugs

[lostforawhile]

to think we rely on 16 of those little tiny pieces of metal to not fail at high speed :O

thats why when i did my suspension work i used all arp studs. the end of them is also made in such a way that it's harder to cross thread them,makes it eaisier to start the lug nut

[lostforawhile]

And open end lug nuts are the only ones that will work for these studs

http://i18.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/98/a6/6986_1.JPGthe open end is fine,i was talking about the taper between the rim and the lug nut sides. there is really no difference between open end and closed end lugs,other then appearance. the part that contacts the rim is whats important.

[bullard123]

the open end is fine,i was talking about the taper between the rim and the lug nut sides. there is really no difference between open end and closed end lugs,other then appearance. the part that contacts the rim is whats important.

ok yes that is cool...I think the only difference is that the closed lug nuts wont tighten all the way. And the open end ones will tighten down all the way

[Hash_man_Se_i]

You need to buy some hub-centric rings by the looks of it, otherwise the same thing is bound to happen sometime down the road. Having all of the weight and stress of the wheel transfer to the studs will cause that to happen, whether they are ARP or Stock.

[lostforawhile]

You need to buy some hub-centric rings by the looks of it, otherwise the same thing is bound to happen sometime down the road. Having all of the weight and stress of the wheel transfer to the studs will cause that to happen, whether they are ARP or Stock.the weight is supposed to be on the studs, no one understands this, thats why the lug nuts have a taper that matches a taper on the hub, they fit like a key in a lock. the pressure from tightning the lug nut on the stud forces that taper into the taper on the hub. thats what holds your wheel on. the only time the center of the hub holds it is if you had something like halibrand knockoff centers or something else without lug nuts. the lug nuts and lug studs hold the wheel on the car. I see people all the time with the wrong type of lug nut on their wheels and wonder how long till they bust off the studs.

[lostforawhile]

here's a good picture from tire rack, the tapered area is where all the force from tightning the lugs is at, this is what actually holds the wheel to the car, this is also why it's so important to torque your lug nuts correctly. http://www.tirerack.com/images/wheels/tech/lug_nut.jpg

[bullard123]

Good info Lost :thumbup:

[89T]

the only time the center of the hub holds it is if you had something like Hildebrand knockoff centers or something else without lug nuts. the lug nuts and lug studs hold the wheel on the car..
i don't think anyone disagrees that the wheel is held on by the lugs.
what we are disagreeing on is the role of the center bore.


your wheel bore is supposed to center on the Honda hub perfect on center, your lug nuts are supposed to hold the wheel onto the hub, its that simple, they each have their 1 job to do.

however, when the center bore of your aftermarket wheel is larger than
the Honda hub, your lug nuts are now performing double duty, trying to hold the wheels onto the car and center them at the same time. This puts too much stress on the lugs and bolts and they vibrate, the bolts will eventually break off one by one.

some research:

The center bore relates to the size of the hole in the center of the rim. When purchasing aftermarket rims, it is wise to ensure the center bore is the same diameter as that of the hub, this is termed as being hub-centric and ensures the rim is perfectly centered. If the center bore is larger, you should purchase a hub-ring in order to ensure the rim is properly centered and hub-centric. Not utilizing a hub-ring means you are lug-centric and solely utilizing the lugs to center the wheels instead of the lugs and the hub.
Hub-Centricity







When automobile manufacturers design a vehicle, they utilize hub-centric wheels so that:

The wheels are positioned very precisely on the car.
The possibility of shifting while being mounted is minimized.
Lug-Centricity







The alternative to a hub-centric wheel is known as lug-centric.

The wheels are located solely by the lug nuts rather than the wheel hub.
As the lug nuts are tightened, they adjust the wheel's position relative to the hub, thus centering the wheel.
Properly torqued, the lug nuts continue to keep the wheel centered as the vehicle is driven.
Lug-centric wheels require extra care in mounting on a vehicle. When using shouldered nuts instead of tapered nuts, take extra care to properly locate the wheel. Never use air tools to install high performance wheels! Always use a torque wrench and follow accepted tightening procedures.


I see people all the time with the wrong type of lug nut on their wheels and wonder how long till they bust off the studs.
i agree with this mainly because i have done this before.


now with all that behind, what i was looking for i did not find.
but lets see if i can explain what i can see from a mechanical point of view.
this is not an argument this is a discussion.

from my point of view the center bore being up sized or larger than stock
relies on the lugs to center and hold the wheels on the car. When you hit a say a pot hole (in bullards case was already weakened by 25% because of a pre-existing broken stud) and if it hit hard enough to move the wheel in any way shape or form the wheel and rotor at the stud point will act like a shear and literally cut the studs off at that point. my guess is that is what happened in bullards case. Refer back to the pics and look where the studs broke off or shall i say cut off?. (the rotor is hanging loose, notice the retaining screws are missing)
with that being said if the center bore of the rim matched the hub like its supposed to the hub would have taken the brunt of the force and kept the wheel from moving on the studs thus not shearing them off...

the funny thing is that i have never heard, seen, or read that a stock wheel has caused or been involved in a broken stud issue of this sort....

[thegreatdane]

judging by the center of that hub, it's newer chinese garbage.


+1

[bullard123]

Might as well install these while im at it :)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8866/drillslotrotors.jpg

[bullard123]

Anyone know what set these bushings are a part of?
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/39/tierodbushing1.jpg

[Rendon LX-i]

thats sway bar endlinks...you can get a set of energy suspension off a 93/94 civic delslow lol....but it fits right in and you feel a difference in body roll...

[bullard123]

thats sway bar endlinks...you can get a set of energy suspension off a 93/94 civic delslow lol....but it fits right in and you feel a difference in body roll...

Ok cool thanks :thumbup: I will buy the set and replace them while im at it

[bullard123]

Are these the right ones? Just wanna make sure before I buy them
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Energy-Suspension-9-13105R-Bushings-Tie-Rod-Dust-Boots_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3 a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293 Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZit em220378098107QQitemZ220378098107QQptZMotorsQ5fCar Q5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[lostforawhile]

i don't think anyone disagrees that the wheel is held on by the lugs.
what we are disagreeing on is the role of the center bore.


your wheel bore is supposed to center on the Honda hub perfect on center, your lug nuts are supposed to hold the wheel onto the hub, its that simple, they each have their 1 job to do.

however, when the center bore of your aftermarket wheel is larger than
the Honda hub, your lug nuts are now performing double duty, trying to hold the wheels onto the car and center them at the same time. This puts too much stress on the lugs and bolts and they vibrate, the bolts will eventually break off one by one.

some research:


i agree with this mainly because i have done this before.


now with all that behind, what i was looking for i did not find.
but lets see if i can explain what i can see from a mechanical point of view.
this is not an argument this is a discussion.

from my point of view the center bore being up sized or larger than stock
relies on the lugs to center and hold the wheels on the car. When you hit a say a pot hole (in bullards case was already weakened by 25% because of a pre-existing broken stud) and if it hit hard enough to move the wheel in any way shape or form the wheel and rotor at the stud point will act like a shear and literally cut the studs off at that point. my guess is that is what happened in bullards case. Refer back to the pics and look where the studs broke off or shall i say cut off?. (the rotor is hanging loose, notice the retaining screws are missing)
with that being said if the center bore of the rim matched the hub like its supposed to the hub would have taken the brunt of the force and kept the wheel from moving on the studs thus not shearing them off...

the funny thing is that i have never heard, seen, or read that a stock wheel has caused or been involved in a broken stud issue of this sort....if your wheel bore is bigger then the center and you are running quality aftermarket studs such as arp, I don't see there being a problem. if you look at the strength of the arp studs vs. the factory or something like the chinese made autoparts store studs, there is no comparison. to break these arp studs you would probably have to be jumping the car or something. and figure they run them on rally cars which do jump,and they still hold up. they difference in strength is huge, there is no reason NOT to run them. when i ordered mine from summit they actually came out just a little bit more then cheap studs locally.

[Ichiban]

You guys are both wrong. The hub bore or taper/radius on the lugs simply center the rim on the hub while it is being tightened. As soon as the lugs are tightened, the clamping force generated by the studs and nuts holds the wheel to the hub by friction. If you want to see the calculations for the forces generated, just ask. They are enormous.

After the wheel is torqued, the studs or hub upset/bore do not control ANY radial forces. Think about it. The shear stress imposed by normal driving will decimate 4 little M12x1.5 studs or whatever they are, but since they are plenty strong in a tensile regard, they're used to make lots of clamping force that holds the wheel to the hub.

Example:

Heavy trucks (ie semi's, buses) use two types of wheel centering:

Stud pilot: The lugs are radiused to match the profile of the bolt circle. The hub bore in the rim has no contact whatsoever with the hub itself. Radial load is carried by the friction created by the clamping force of the lugs/studs.

Hub pilot: As you guessed, the hub centers the rim on the bore. Once the wheels are tightened, again, clamping force and friction take over.

Edit: Bullards studs sheared off. He either exceeded the elastic limit of the steel studs by overtightening the lug studs, or he exceeded the shear strength by undertigtening, which allowed the wheel to move and apply a side load to the studs.

[bullard123]

Ok so Im down to the hub assembly. I've taken the axle nut off and come to find out the assembly doesn't slide out
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8472/hub1.jpg

[lostforawhile]

Ok so Im down to the hub assembly. I've taken the axle nut off and come to find out the assembly doesn't slide out
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8472/hub1.jpgif you have those long studs you are going to have to press the hub out of the wheel bearing. with normal length studs you can grind some of the flange off on the back of the stud,and it will clear enough to slip in place. wheel bearings aren't that expensive, go ahead and put in new bearings while it's apart. try to find the nsk bearings if you look for some. i went the whole nine yards, bead blasted and powder coated my hubs, new bearings, new dust shield on the back, ball joints,everything. easy to do while it's out.

[87roach]

It's not that cheap.. but like lost says, it would be also easier to replace other joints and such while it's out. gl bullard

[lostforawhile]

It's not that cheap.. but like lost says, it would be also easier to replace other joints and such while it's out. gl bullardit's well worth the peace of mine knowing the bearings are good and that lower ball joint isn't going to fall out. I got my lower joint pretty cheap from summit and it's a moog. one note if you get theirs,it comes with a really kick ass boot, but you have to take the boot spring clip off,the boot off,then press in the joint. then put it back on,they claim you can do it with it on,but there's no way. when you put the spring clip back on, it's a couple of spirals of spring wire, you have to expand it with something,then clamp the clip open with a pair of needle nose vise grips or something. it goes on easy that way,but if you didn't know that it would drive you nuts.

[bullard123]

if you have those long studs you are going to have to press the hub out of the wheel bearing. with normal length studs you can grind some of the flange off on the back of the stud,and it will clear enough to slip in place. wheel bearings aren't that expensive, go ahead and put in new bearings while it's apart. try to find the nsk bearings if you look for some. i went the whole nine yards, bead blasted and powder coated my hubs, new bearings, new dust shield on the back, ball joints,everything. easy to do while it's out.
Yes you are right:). I just found that out after spending a hour wondering why the hub assembly wouldn't slide off lol. Apparently Honda changed that in 1990 because the 90 accords have 4 bolts holding the hub asembly on. This sucks because now I have to take the car to a mechanic because I don't have a press and I don't know how much they will charge :dunno: Apparently the rear hubs have to be unpressed and pressed again as well so I have to do all four

[lostforawhile]

Yes you are right:). I just found that out after spending a hour wondering why the hub assembly wouldn't slide off lol. Apparently Honda changed that in 1990 because the 90 accords have 4 bolts holding the hub asembly on. This sucks because now I have to take the car to a mechanic because I don't have a press and I don't know how much they will charge :dunno: Apparently the rear hubs have to be unpressed and pressed again as well so I have to do all fourdo you have drums or discs in the back can't remember? i know on the drums you just take out the big nut in the middle and the entire hub comes off of the carrier. don't even have to take the brakes apart. not sure on rear discs, if the hub comes out, drive out the old ones with a hammer,put the stud through the hole,now use a bunch of thick half inch hole washers and an old lug nut to pull the stud into the hole.

[bullard123]

do you have drums or discs in the back can't remember? i know on the drums you just take out the big nut in the middle and the entire hub comes off of the carrier. don't even have to take the brakes apart. not sure on rear discs, if the hub comes out, drive out the old ones with a hammer,put the stud through the hole,now use a bunch of thick half inch hole washers and an old lug nut to pull the stud into the hole.

I have drums in the rear Lost. It seems like you have done this a few times:). I was rolling on this project myself until I found out that the hubs were pressed in. Well at least i have some good news knowing that i can do the rears myself. Thanks for the info Lost:thumbup:

[87roach]

ahh.. now im really wishing I had enough to get some of those arp studs and put them in when I replaced everything. doh.

[bullard123]

ahh.. now im really wishing I had enough to get some of those arp studs and put them in when I replaced everything. doh.

Yes i know how you feel...It sucks that Honda made it this diffucult to replace studs on these cars

[bullard123]

Im installing these on the front sway bars while Im at it
http://i.ebayimg.com/05/!BPW,ddQBmk~$(KGrHgoH-DMEjlLlvjJvBJzO)F08S!~~_1.JPG

[boost addict]

here's a good picture from tire rack, the tapered area is where all the force from tightning the lugs is at, this is what actually holds the wheel to the car, this is also why it's so important to torque your lug nuts correctly. http://www.tirerack.com/images/wheels/tech/lug_nut.jpg

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

[Rendon LX-i]

yup those are the ones...i installed all my studs just by tappering them and slids right in....i got all new studs in the front...the back never broke

[lostforawhile]

I have drums in the rear Lost. It seems like you have done this a few times:). I was rolling on this project myself until I found out that the hubs were pressed in. Well at least i have some good news knowing that i can do the rears myself. Thanks for the info Lost:thumbup:yea the rears are really easy, i changed out an entire hub in less then fifteen minutes, the brake backing plate stays in place with all the brake parts attached to it. you just take off the drum,and remove the big center nut, just like on the front. it's actually the same nut, you'll need to replace them after you take them off, or if you are really cheap, just swap the nuts from one side to the other, this moves the place they were staked, so you have new metal to stake down. watch your torque on that rear nut, it's not nearly as much as the front and if it torqued super tight it can damage the bearings.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

I think it's the other way round. The German cars are definitely hub-centric. They're a blasted nuisance when you try to buy aftermarket wheels. If you don't get the right hub bore, then you have to get hub rings. If you don't get hub rings, the car wobbles so bad, you think it will shake to pieces at 30 mph.

For what it's worth, hub rings are little flimsy teeny pieces of plastic. I can't see them bearing any load at all so I'm with guyhatesmycar on this one. The hub ring does nothing more than center the wheel on the hub. Hondas are lug-centric though, so there's no need for rings on a 3g.

[lostforawhile]

the Germans like to overengineer everything, the little plastic ring probably costs as much as a new civic. :stick:

[Ichiban]

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

No. 98% of cars and light trucks were not hub piloted. No, the wheel is not supported by the hub bore on the rim.

[bullard123]

Ok so I finally got the accord in the shop today to get the hubs unpressed. The mechanic told me that he would check the wheel bearing for free. Come to find out I had a bad wheel bearing on the driver's side. I wanted to replace them both but the bearing itself was $75 bucks.

[bullard123]

I got the fronts done.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3592/img0561v.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4772/img0562j.jpg

[Dr_Snooz]

You sheared off all your lugs and blew out your bearing? How heavy are your rims? If you drive aggressively on heavy rims, then you are definitely putting loads on your suspension for which it was not in any way designed.

[bullard123]

You sheared off all your lugs and blew out your bearing? How heavy are your rims? If you drive aggressively on heavy rims, then you are definitely putting loads on your suspension for which it was not in any way designed.

Yes 3 of my lugs broke. I don't think it was because of rough driving though. I know the weight of my wheels was a factor though. The wheel bearing just needed to be replaced.

[lostforawhile]

You sheared off all your lugs and blew out your bearing? How heavy are your rims? If you drive aggressively on heavy rims, then you are definitely putting loads on your suspension for which it was not in any way designed.the wheel bearings have a tendency to fail on a car close to a quarter century old, not sure on the lugs,but they do fatigue with age.

[Dr_Snooz]

Maybe. But suspension mods + weight + aggressive driving are a lot more likely to cause trouble than mere age. Bearings especially tend to fail more from load than age. I'll probably get flamed by all the modders on here, but that's why I don't mod. Things fail in magical and wonderful ways when you mod and I don't need that headache.

[lostforawhile]

Maybe. But suspension mods + weight + aggressive driving are a lot more likely to cause trouble than mere age. Bearings especially tend to fail more from load than age. I'll probably get flamed by all the modders on here, but that's why I don't mod. Things fail in magical and wonderful ways when you mod and I don't need that headache.
nope don't need headaches, i have enough for everyone. I just wouldn't trust quarter century old bearings, at that point in time the ball joints are nearing the end of their safe useful life,so it's best to do bearings and ball joints all at once. this is normal stuff for any car of this age. lug studs are loaded every time the weight of the car rotates on to them, over time and years this causes the metal to work harden and become brittle, they are cheap insurance to replace, the arp studs on mine actually came out cheaper then buying chinese made studs locally for 4 bucks per stud.

[bullard123]

Finally got the swaybar links in and installed
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7355/img0576h.jpg


http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/39/img0577.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

Finally got the swaybar links in and installed
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7355/img0576h.jpg


http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/39/img0577.jpg

wrong way Elway.

The end of the bar goes between the two two bushings, not at the end like you have it. Just pull the nut and washer, pull off the bar end, pull one of the red bushings, put the bar on, then busing, then washer, then nut.

edit: Shit, just realized it, you gotta swap the end on the control arm side too.

Looking good though. See, it was a blessing in disguise because now you're upgrading. woot.

[markmdz89hatch]

for reference: http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13SG70_B29.gif

[bullard123]

Yes it was lol. Its about time to start replacing some of this 20 year old suspension. So i just need to move the top washer down on top of the upper bushing?

[markmdz89hatch]

Yes it was lol. Its about time to start replacing some of this 20 year old suspension. So i just need to move the top washer down on top of the upper bushing?

huh? no, the bar needs to be sandwiched between the top two bushings. The washer/nut still goes on the top of the pin. The control arm ring that the endlink kit goes through needs to be sandwiched between the two lower bushings. Washer and nut go on the end of that side of the pin as well.

like this

Nut
Washer
Bushing
swaybar end
Bushing
Washer
pin sleeve
Washer
Bushing
control arm ring
Bushing
Washer
Nut


edit: correction. it looks like it's a bolt instead of a threaded pin. If that's the case, just do the same as what I have shown above, but swap the stop 'nut' for 'head of bolt'.

[87roach]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a69/roach_cato/sway10.jpg

Only pic I have that close to the bushing.

[bullard123]

Oh shoot Thanks. I tried to install them like the stock ones were. I guess they do go in differently.Thanks Roach