These damn f*cking valve springs....

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok guys, for anyone that's yanked the valve cover off their motor and snapped a pic, please please please post it here. I need to get to the bottom of what heads had what springs. When you post the pic, please post the year of the car and motor code (and IF the head or entire motor has been replaced, please note that as well).

This is a pic of the head that I got from another member. No idea really of which year/model this came from.

Note the diameter of the intake valve springs/retainers. They are very small in diameter (I'll get the exact measurements later today).

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/Picture006.jpg

Now THIS is the pic that A20A3 posted in his pic/build thread for his '89 LX-i.
A20A3 --> Can you tell me if those are dual or single springs?

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2999/nocam.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

ALERT: Guys, if you have just purchased Bisi springs (Tdurr, this goes out to you my friend), please please please understand that I'm sure Bisi was using a head that looked just like A20A3's head, not mine. The retainers on A20A3's head will work just fine (sort of. they don't have a second step for the inner springs.), but the retainers on the head like mine should not be used. The springs are entirely too wide and my retainers are entirely too small in diameter to safely run that setup.

[Tdurr]

Say what now? I just got back from a trip to savannah in my car, took it to 6k+ a few times on the way back and the car held up fine.
Like i said before, on the intake side, we had to put flat washers on the inside to keep the inner springs on the intake side from sitting slanted. The Head i have on my car is a A3, so im confused.

btw are u asking for pics of the intake springs installed on the car? and in that 2nd pic, the intake springs are singles. U can see the stem seal clearly on the #3.

[carotman]

Could be an A20A1 head (Or BS1)

Any casting numbers?

['A20A3']

on the front of the head on mine it says PJ0

and i dunno yet mark mang im sorry i need to relash my valves and get some more pics of that for you.

we need to keep this thread going.

['A20A3']

also mark, you did get the cam caps and/or rocker assembly with that right?

[markmdz89hatch]

also mark, you did get the cam caps and/or rocker assembly with that right?

nope.

...oh yeah, please disregard the bottom pair of springs/retainers. Those are exhaust spring/retainer setup, but the ones above are the stock intake.

OK, update for you guys. I checked another head I have, which is a bone stock original head from my '89 DX (A20A1). The springs/retainers look identical to the ones pictured. ...gee, looks like we just found out that the A3 heads are considerably different from the A1.

gimme about 10 mins and I'll post up a pic of the A1 head I just looked at. ...and about 15 mins, I'll go grab an '88 A3 I got on the shelf and check that out.

Stay tuned....

[Oldblueaccord]

PM me a public email and ill send you some of mine on my car and a head i have on the bench.


wp

[Civic Accord Honda]

ill post some of my JDM A20A (no number) head as soon as my camera battery's are charged

[markmdz89hatch]

update: Pics.

I just lined them all up, wrote up what motor they're off, and exactly what codes are on the front of the head. All heads use the same intake and exhaust springs and retainers.

After the pics of the heads, I have some pics of a box of springs, valves and retainers I picked up from JohnnyO this past weekend. Note the springs next to the red basket, they are single springs (not a dual spring setup) and look to be about the same as what A20A3 has pictured on his intake side. I wonder if it's the 86-87 LX-i (A20A3) heads that use the larger intake springs.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20%20heads/Picture003.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20%20heads/Picture005.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20%20heads/Picture004.jpg


http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20%20heads/Picture002.jpg

[LX-incredible]

What? The intake springs are the same diameter on all A20s. The A18 that came in the prelude had the slightly larger intake springs.

You'll be just fine if you use exhaust spring retainers and seats on the intake. Let's not try to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

[AccordB20A]

Yeah i didnt know there was so much to valve springs lol

[markmdz89hatch]

What? The intake springs are the same diameter on all A20s. The A18 that came in the prelude had the slightly larger intake springs.

You'll be just fine if you use exhaust spring retainers and seats on the intake. Let's not try to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

I fully understand that we don't want to make this more complicated than it needs to be, and I agree with you. However, I think it's important that we get to the bottom of this little mystery. At this point, I'm going out on a limb and saying that I think (and I'll need to confirm this) that the 86-87 LX-i's have the intake springs/retainers that A20A3 has pictured there. But one fact is now known. ...which is that not all A20 heads have the same springs.

A20A3 (dude, what's your name? Calling you by your 3geez handle is too confusing especially in this thread). Anyway, I know you have an '89 LX-i Coupe, but do you know if the head or entire motor has ever been replaced?

Take a look at the last picture I posted with all the springs, retainers, valves. Note there are 9 of the larger diameter springs on the far left of the paper towel (right next to the red basket). Now also note that there are 9 retainers on the same pic (the middle columns or retainers). Those have a tapered locator (or second step) to the center hole, unlike the exhaust spring retainers which use the flat seats without a tapered locator.

I do agree that we can use the stock exhaust springs and retainers on the intake side, but it's not quite as easy as that. The stock exhaust valve stems are 6.90mm, while the stock intake valve stems are 6.54mm (about a 1/2 mm difference). ...and the center hole diameter on the two retainers (exhaust and intake) are different, so there's a question as to which keepers to use to lock onto the stem groove and fit nice and snug in the retainter taper.

I'm still looking into this, and had about an hour long conversation with Ferrea (a race valve mfg.) Wednesday morning. I'm getting somewhere, but I have a major learning curve to overcome before I can even pretend to know what I'm talking about with this.

...if anyone has any pictures of their head and they have an 86-87 LX-i, and you can confirm without any question of doubt that it is the original head, please please please post it here.

[Smeado]

I'm no expert but i think the change dosen't have as much to do with engine code as it does year. I have a an ET-2 head with the center oil plug (like the A18 engine) from 1986 Lude ad it has the larger intake springs, I also have a A20A3 head form a 86 Accord that also has the larger springs (acquired at a junk yard). I also have a 87 Prelude SI head (marked A20A3 on the block, also form the JY) that has the smaller springs. I have Bisi valve springs and they DO only fit the larger spring retainers. maybe this thread will be of some help.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307454&page=1

Smeado

[carotman]

Here are some part numbers

86 DX Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1986&TrimLevel=3DR+DX+NON-PASSIVE&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
86 LXI Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1986&TrimLevel=3DR+LXI+NON-PASSIVE&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
87 DX Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1987&TrimLevel=3DR+DX+NON-PASSIVE&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
87 LXI Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1987&TrimLevel=3DR+LXI+NON-PASSIVE&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)

88 DX Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1988&TrimLevel=3DR+DX&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
88 LXI Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1988&TrimLevel=3DR+LXI&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
89 DX Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1989&TrimLevel=3DR+DX&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)
89 LXI Hatch (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=ACCORD&Year=1989&TrimLevel=3DR+LXI&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=3&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SE00&ViewParts=true)

It seems that all engines for in 86-87 have their own part number and 88-89 have another part number.

This could be because they used the same valve springs on the B20A3 when it came out in 1988.
Prelude B20A3 (http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse.asp?Model=PRELUDE&Year=1988&TrimLevel=2DR+2.0S&TransLevel=5MTKA&Section=A&Category=E++12++|VALVE-ROCKER+ARM&Doors=2&Emissions=KA&PartCatalogId=13SF10&ViewParts=true)

Are the 86-87 really different from the 88-89?

I have an 87 and an 89 here at home. I'll check into this later this week.

[LX-incredible]

Son of a... you're right. I pulled out the two extra LX-i heads I have around here and the intake springs and retainers are quite different. The HF-2 is from an 89 and has the smaller intake springs. HF-1 has the larger springs. Stat1k would have to tell you what year that was off of.

The HF-1 intake springs look exactly the same as A20A3's, they are single coils.

['A20A3']

my name is Harvey. :wave:

i dont know about my motor, all i know is that it says A20A3 on the block, PJ0 on the head, and that it has less than 50K miles on it. it had a automatic flywheel on it when i got it. it's from a coupe that was exported to Japan back in the day. i got it from a friend of mine at Japan Engines. so it's very possible that someone over there tampered with it. it's stout. burns no synthetic, and has excellent compression.

okay this pic is of the head that was on my 88 LX-i auto. i still need to strip it all down and clean it. it's been sitting for 3 or so years now. and the retainers on it look smaller than the ones in the motor in my car now. it looks like my motor was played with over in Japan long before i got it...

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1436/head1.jpg
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3517/head2.jpg

[AccordB20A]

and i thought all a20 heads were the same aye, well i treated them that way, even a18 heads i used one on a a20 to sell a car

[markmdz89hatch]

smeado--> I think you're right... ...kind of. I'm not sure about what the A18's or ET's had, but I'm still not convinced that the A20A1 and A20A3 aren't different, but one thing is for sure... The '88 and '89's of all codes (A1 or A3) appear to have the smaller intake springs.

Now we just need to collect a little more info from the guys about their 86 and 87's and find out if they came from an A1 or A3.

Harvey --> I'm willing to bet that head came from an 86 or 87, or at least someone pillaged the intake springs from an 86 or 87.

LX-incredible --> Can you ping Stat1k and ask him to jump on this thread, or just get an answer from him on the model/year?

Jean --> Thanks for those p/n's and links. i'm going to check those out tonight and see if I can make head or tails of this.

['A20A3']

Harvey --> I'm willing to bet that head came from an 86 or 87, or at least someone pillaged the intake springs from an 86 or 87.

that's what i'm thinking. those japanese people played with my motor. :lol:

car runs great too. ill have pics of it for you tomorrow when i relash the valves. :thumbup:

[Tdurr]

so im still not sure the whole point of this thread. You think that the intake springs are different from 86-87, and 88-89? that it?

[Pico]

I'm confused and read thru this a few times.
Does it mean if I get the Bizi Springs I have to use the retainers from a 86-87 head?
or am I fine with the retainers I have on my 89 head...

[Tdurr]

I have the stock retainers with the bisi springs on my 88 head. Ill go look at the code later, but i dont see the problem here.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/3geez%20stuff/head2.jpg
those are the stock intake retainers + keepers.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/3geez%20stuff/seat.jpg
you can see the washer i was talking about before in this pic.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/TheDarkDarkRacer/3geez%20stuff/brokeded.jpg
the intake seats on the right are what was replaced by the washers.

[Oldblueaccord]

It appears to me your retainers are way too small. There not even covering 50% of the springs coil it seems. If your machinist is ok with it then I guess its ok.


wp

[rjudgey]

I would want something a little bigger covering the tops of those springs! lol!

[markmdz89hatch]

tdurr... ...the point is just to find out if there is a difference between model and year A20 (PJ0) heads.

pico... ...that's a major part of the reason I really went digging here. Those pics of tdurrs retainers on the bisi spring scares the shit out of me. I'd like to show that pic to any reputable machine shop around here, then quickly take a step back to dodge the bitchslap coming my way. So the quick answer to your question is YES, I would ONLY use the bisi springs with the larger retainers pictured in A20A3's pic in my first post. ...and it's looking like that's from an 86-87.

Those outer springs need more than just a washer at their seat. Then need a step on the seat to keep the spring centered on the stem. The inner should also have a locator (second step) to keep them on center, and keep them from scrubbing the inside of the springs and/or thrashing the seals and stems. Same goes for the retainers. As you can see in the pics I posted up in my first few posts, the stock retainers for the larger springs (which it's looking like are found on the 86-87's only, and still pending the exact models from 86-87), have what looks very much like a locator which would keep the center spring where it belongs, and it would work perfectly with the outer springs.

[Tdurr]

The machinist + my friend who works there said it was fine. It is covering more the 50% and if it wasn't i wouldn't want to run them at all. If i run across a few motors ate the JY, ill yank the exhaust sides off, but it is holding up fine.

Edit:

Those pics of tdurrs retainers on the bisi spring scares the shit out of me. I'd like to show that pic to any reputable machine shop around here, then quickly take a step back to dodge the bitchslap coming my way.

go ahead and ask a few shop. i dont mind u using the pic.
But you have to remember that the top retainer is tapered also. On both the intake and exhaust sides. when the springs were tested for lbs ratings, we put the top on them and it compressed straight, no kinks or binds.

[markmdz89hatch]

The machinist + my friend who works there said it was fine. It is covering more the 50% and if it wasn't i wouldn't want to run them at all. If i run across a few motors ate the JY, ill yank the exhaust sides off, but it is holding up fine.

Edit:


go ahead and ask a few shop. i dont mind u using the pic.
But you have to remember that the top retainer is tapered also. On both the intake and exhaust sides. when the springs were tested for lbs ratings, we put the top on them and it compressed straight, no kinks or binds.

I agree that the straight compression and lb testing was a great idea. And the fact that bisi did the opposite coil direction on the inner spring, is the key to keeping it from binding. Not sure what you mean about the retainer being tapered though.

Also man, I'm not trying to slam you or that head or call anyone stupid, so I just want to make sure you know that. I'm just saying that I personally don't see how that could work for any length of time, and saying that if it were me, I'd never do that just because I wouldn't trust it on my car.

[Civic Accord Honda]

some pics i found of the my old 88 accords head.


you would have to ask Shane (84accord) for the head number


88 accord LX-i A20A3 engine
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/Dark_Accord/1988-Honda-Accord-LX-i/Resurrected-2/9-16-08/HPIM7188.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/Dark_Accord/1988-Honda-Accord-LX-i/Resurrected-2/9-16-08/HPIM7189.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n111/civicaccordhonda/BLUE%20Valve%20cover%20PWNS/P1010004.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n111/civicaccordhonda/BLUE%20Valve%20cover%20PWNS/P1010005.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n111/civicaccordhonda/BLUE%20Valve%20cover%20PWNS/P1010006.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/Dark_Accord/1988-Honda-Accord-LX-i/Resurrected-2/head-off/HPIM7137_Medium.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/Dark_Accord/1988-Honda-Accord-LX-i/Resurrected-2/head-off/HPIM7138_Medium.jpg


ill get some pics of the jdm 86 a20a head tomarrow hopefully

[Oldblueaccord]

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5796/img0450p.jpg

I took this since I have a pretty bad scratch in my cam on this lobe.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1375/img1310o.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9818/img0654y.jpg

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8383/img0658mab.jpg


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2093/img0659w.jpg

This one is the head on the bench I think its carbed but actually I cant remember.



wp

[Tdurr]

I agree that the straight compression and lb testing was a great idea. And the fact that bisi did the opposite coil direction on the inner spring, is the key to keeping it from binding. Not sure what you mean about the retainer being tapered though.

Also man, I'm not trying to slam you or that head or call anyone stupid, so I just want to make sure you know that. I'm just saying that I personally don't see how that could work for any length of time, and saying that if it were me, I'd never do that just because I wouldn't trust it on my car.


I never took any offense to that at all dont worry, i know you are just concerned. But I did go to the jy today and just grabbed 8 exhaust tops, then when i got home i remembered that i might have needed the keepers... so do I? If not ill try and get the parts installed next week some time.

and what i mean by tapered, is it has 2 steps like the seats and retainers on the exhaust side.

[markmdz89hatch]

I never took any offense to that at all dont worry, i know you are just concerned. But I did go to the jy today and just grabbed 8 exhaust tops, then when i got home i remembered that i might have needed the keepers... so do I? If not ill try and get the parts installed next week some time.

and what i mean by tapered, is it has 2 steps like the seats and retainers on the exhaust side.

gotcha. that's cool man.

as for the keepers, I'm still on the fence on that one. ...I guess that's one more thing that needs to be checked out. For now I'll say this. If you pulled 8 retainers from the exhaust side, those keepers are made for a 6.90mm stem, while the keepers for the intake valves are made for the stock 6.54mm stems. But it's not just a matter of using the intake keepers on the exhaust retainers because the center tapered hole for the keepers is a different diameter. Let me tinker with mine for a day or so and I'll come back to you with what I think I'll do if I'm stuck in that situation after I'm done with all this. Did you happen to see if there were any 86-87 3G's there? If so, did you take a peek at the intake springs by any chance? Also, not to further complicate things, if you want to use the exhaust retainers, I wonder if the spring ID and OD [diameter] (both inner and outer springs) are very similar to the stock exhaust. If not, you could run into an issue with the retainers 1st step diameter and locator diameter.

Harvey --> Do you have a caliper? If so, can you measure the stem diameter on your intake valves?

OldBlue and CAH --> Can you both confirm that those pics are all from 88 or 89 heads?

[Tdurr]

I can say that the springs diameter are close to the stock exhaust diameter. They look to be seated very well on both the top and bottoms. and thats a interesting bit a of info for the stems. I could grab a caliper and get a reading on the intake stem on the bent valve i have(lol). And i completely forgot to look at the intake springs. Next time i go ill grab a camera and take some pics.

[markmdz89hatch]

schweet. You should get the same or very close to 6.54mm on the intake valve stems as long as you have the itty bitty retainers as in your picture, and as in just about every single pic posted in this thread. ...but I'm very interested in knowing the stem diameter on the intake valve stems that use the larger retainers as what Harvey (username: A20A3) has pictured in my first post.

[Pico]

if I get the chance tomorrow, I'll take my valve cover off and take some pics of my head.
Gives me a good reason to adjust my valves.
In the mean time I dont know if these will help but these are pics of my head when I installed my Delta Cam
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/picopop/100_1225.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/picopop/100_1223.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/picopop/100_1221.jpg

[Tdurr]

So i realized im dumb. I have 2 sets of intake keepers and 2 intake valves. So i just did a test fit using the exhaust retainer and it fits snug. I pulled as hard as i fucking could on them and no budge at all. I figured it wouldn't be a problem because the keeper and the retainer are both v-shaped to wedge itself and to keep it from popping out.
ill have some cellphone pics in a second.
Edit: Cant find the SD card reader, so pics tomorrow. ill use a friends camera.

[LX-incredible]

Just spent the day at 2 yards, looking at about 30 accord heads. :lol:

The larger seats and retainers only came on the 86-87 models. All models in 86 had them, about half of the 87 models had them. Isn't dependent on being FI or carbed, just the manufacture date.

Exhaust seats and 86 intake retainers seem like the best option for the intake. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

[Civic Accord Honda]

OldBlue and CAH --> Can you both confirm that those pics are all from 88 or 89 heads?

im pretty sure the engine in the car was original and the car was a 88 LX-i but i cant grantee it was never replaced as i only had records back to 2000. if you need the head code i could ask shane (84accord) to check it and see it what it says


and i know I'm lagging on getting pics of the 86 JDM A20A head but its been cold and rainy out so i haven't been in the mood to go out in the garage :lol:

[rjudgey]

You need to be really carefull with the keepers and which ones you use, the retainers on the exhaust size use a larger keeper as the valves are bigger they also sit in a different position to the inlet ones as well they are much higher on the valve so this may make the spring too weak?

In my opinion your best option is too scout around for some 2nd Gen Accord ET1 heads maybe ES1 might have them but the ET1 definately comes with double springs so has the retainers and platforms and keepers that will work 100% reliably, another option is maybe using Prelude ET ones they are not wedge shaped but flat so won't need washers and should work quite well with the Bisi springs.

Hope this helps.

If anyone ones some pics of prelude platforms and retainers and the ET1 ones just let me know I'll see what i can dig out from my hundreds of spares and take a few pics.

[87roach]

rjudgey, I am glad to see you posted a structured paragraph! Much easier on the eyes.

/back on topic

[Tdurr]

You need to be really carefull with the keepers and which ones you use, the retainers on the exhaust size use a larger keeper as the valves are bigger they also sit in a different position to the inlet ones as well they are much higher on the valve so this may make the spring too weak?

In my opinion your best option is too scout around for some 2nd Gen Accord ET1 heads maybe ES1 might have them but the ET1 definately comes with double springs so has the retainers and platforms and keepers that will work 100% reliably, another option is maybe using Prelude ET ones they are not wedge shaped but flat so won't need washers and should work quite well with the Bisi springs.

Hope this helps.

If anyone ones some pics of prelude platforms and retainers and the ET1 ones just let me know I'll see what i can dig out from my hundreds of spares and take a few pics.


I need a pic to show you something. The keepers only sit different on the valves because of the actual grove on the valve + the keepers. I used the intake keepers with the exhaust retainers, and i can say the retainer sits at the same spot the intake did. The only thing that would be different from my view is the innerspring might be compressed by a extra 1/2-1mm.

[Oldblueaccord]

First pic is my own car. The ones on the bench not sure of the of the year etc.

wp

[markmdz89hatch]

Just spent the day at 2 yards, looking at about 30 accord heads. :lol:

The larger seats and retainers only came on the 86-87 models. All models in 86 had them, about half of the 87 models had them. Isn't dependent on being FI or carbed, just the manufacture date.

Exhaust seats and 86 intake retainers seem like the best option for the intake. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

You, my friend, are the motha effin man! Can't thank you enough for doing that for me (and the entire board). So as far as I'm concerned that seals the deal for me. We just need to clear up this '87 thing now. But would you guys agree that "general" rule of thumb could be that the 88-89's use the smaller diameter springs/retainers, while 'most' 86-87 use larger diameter springs/retainers.

Ok, this iPhone sucks, so i'm going to finish this post tomorrow.

[stat1K]

You, my friend, are the motha effin man! Can't thank you enough for doing that for me (and the entire board). So as far as I'm concerned that seals the deal for me. We just need to clear up this '87 thing now. But would you guys agree that "general" rule of thumb could be that the 88-89's use the smaller diameter springs/retainers, while 'most' 86-87 use larger diameter springs/retainers.

Ok, this iPhone sucks, so i'm going to finish this post tomorrow.

yeah he's the effing man, but it was raining and it made me more sick asshole!!! jk, we got some decent stuff out of the day... but yeah he looked at every 3g hahaha.

[guaynabo89]

I can also confrim the 87 had larger diameter intake springs and retainers. I will try and dig up some parts I hae laying around. There are definately 2 sets of valvetrain components in the 86-89 Accords.

Heres my 87 fi head.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/sinnedone/Picture143.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/sinnedone/Picture126.jpg


I should add my springs were replaced back in the day by JG. Dont know of the spring diameter is the same.

[Tdurr]

^^ why are they so shiny?!?!

[LX-incredible]

From left to right, bisi, 86 intake, 88-89 intake
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7641/1springsside.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3855/2springstop.jpg

86-89 exhaust, bisi
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5111/3exhbisiside.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5258/4exhbisitop.jpg

86 intake, 88-89 intake, 86-89 exhaust. Retainers on top, seats on bottom.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4464/5retainersseats.jpg

86 retainer on valve with INTAKE keepers.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4888/686intakeonvalve.jpg

86 intake retainer with exhaust seat on bisi spring. Perfect fit!
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1336/7bisiwithretainers.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1349/8bisiinnerwithretainers.jpg

[89sei89dx]

87 hatch lxi .i dont know if these help any. but i thought maybe u could see a difference in intake spring size on the 87 head compared to some other years.http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0307091630.jpg http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0307091630a.jpg http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/gettinthechewin/0307091630c-1.jpg

[LX-incredible]

^^ why are they so shiny?!?!

Probably titanium, that guy doesn't screw around.

[carotman]

So, I was right when checking part numbers!

86-87 have the larger springs and 88-89 have the smaller ones, just like the B20A3

[markmdz89hatch]

Jean --> yep yep. Thanks for those p/n's too. I already have a handful of the 86-87 intake springs and retainers, but I need extra keepers too.

LX-incredible --> Those comparison pics are perfect. ...but are you sure that retainer pic has an exhaust retainer on the upper right, and not an 86-87 intake? Either way, what I think is awesome is that in an earlier post, you said 'who cares anyway' and at the end of the day, it was you that really went hunting in the boneyard to find out. My hat goes off to you my friend. Do you have a caliper? If so, can you measure the o/d and i/d of the bisi's, along with the wire diameter? I can get a coil count from your pics. ...I just want to try and get a rough estimate of the spring rate of each spring, and the coil-bind for the bisi's as compared to the stockers.

Dennis --> Where in the flying fUk did you get those retainers? Are those JG too?

Tdurr --> I'm with rjudgey. Be careful with the intake keepers on the exhaust valve. Not saying it's not going to work, but the intake keepers are much smaller diameter, and sit far lower into the retainer than the stock exhaust keepers do. I have a bunch in my basement too, so I'll tinker in the next few days as well. Honestly, I would just hit up the yard again and snag a full set of retainers and keepers from the 86-87 intakes, and as you had suggested, snag 8 exhaust seats. That will make those Bisi's feel perfectly perfect.

[LX-incredible]

Positive it's an exhaust.

Aint no thing, I'll admit when I'm wrong.

86 intake retainers (and I say 86 so someone doesn't grab the smaller ones from a later 87), and exhaust seats is the way to go for the intakes. 86 intake seats should also work, as the bisi springs don't have much of a gap between the inner and outer coils. The exhausts are a better choice IMO.

I'll post some measurements later today.

[markmdz89hatch]

nah, you weren't wrong at all. ...in fact, everything you've posted (especially the last few) have been hugely important to figuring this puzzle out.

[guaynabo89]

LOL

The retainers were custom made out of the strongest grade aluminum. The strongest alum is not as strong as titanium and thats why they are a little thick to compensate. They are still lighter than titanium as is and a hell of alot lighter than the stock steel ones.

My cylinder head is an 87 and uses the larger diameter intake springs with the dual seat retainers. My alum retainers were made this way as well and Im thinking getting some of the Bisimoto springs and turbo cam.

[markmdz89hatch]

No, you can't do it. I won't allow it. haha, j/k man.

Sweet setup there. Me likes.

[Tdurr]

meh, well i guess im going to the jy wed... lol
so 86 retainers, and any intake keepers?

[markmdz89hatch]

dunno about the 'any keepers' thing as I have yet to figure out the angle of the center hole or the diameter. I'll break out the caliper tonight and measure the center holes to see if they're the same. If so, then yes. If not, then no.

[Tdurr]

wanna just look up part #'s for the keepers and see if they are the same? lol

[Tdurr]

48124 is the keeper #'s for 86 lxi and 88 lxi. so should be good, worse case scenario ill just grab those when i get the retainers.

[markmdz89hatch]

48124 is the keeper #'s for 86 lxi and 88 lxi. so should be good, worse case scenario ill just grab those when i get the retainers.

so there you go. that answers that. You're good to go.

[Tdurr]

so there you go. that answers that. You're good to go.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/139174264_5bb9d1f002.jpg?v=0

[guaynabo89]

lol

Is that you?

[stat1K]

rofl.

['A20A3']

that's interesting...the top end of my motor was tampered with before it ever even left japan...

[Tdurr]

lol

Is that you?

lol no. google my friend.
and harvey, u have a jdm motor right?

also, anyone have a good tool that i can use to pull the springs off so i can put the new retainers on w/o having to remove the head? lol

[LX-incredible]

Inner bisi spring:
OD: 0.904"
ID: 0.678"
UC Length: 1.871"
Wire diameter: 0.113"

Outer bisi spring:
OD: 1.221"
ID: 0.897"
UC Length: 1.981"
Wire diameter: 0.162"

['A20A3']

and harvey, u have a jdm motor right?

it was from a Export Editon Coupe. one that was built here and then shipped to Japan. i know it sounds weird. it's true though. it runs perfectly, no fouling plugs, no oil consumption(running Amsoil 5w30), no strange noises, excellent compression, etc.

it says A20A3 on the block though, that why i dont understand why it has 86-87 valvetrain on it. cause i didn't swap that stuff out. hmmmm...:confused:

[Tdurr]

^^ hmmm well at least u kno u got the god stuff... lol

and lx-incredible is on point!

[markmdz89hatch]

^^ hmmm well at least u kno u got the god stuff... lol

and lx-incredible is on point!

:werd: ....oh and yes, I have the rolls royce of valve spring / valve retainer tools. Give me a few days and I'll have worked out some details and hopefully get a tid-bit of a discount on the retail, which I'll obviously share the savings with you guys.

lx-incredible --> Who da man? ....U da man! Thanks for posting up those specs. Dammit, if only I didn't work 13 hrs a day, and have to take care of the kids when I get home, I would have a little more time to work on this. Thanks for really stepping up there.

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, so here's what I started to come up with. I'll get the measurements and calculations on the 88-89's tomorrow (shit, it's real late/early, so make that 'tonight') and plug those into the spreadsheet.

*Note: The Bisi spring rates are listed individually, which is misleading. I'll clear that up when I get to work and can clean up the spreadsheet a little more. I'm tired, so I'm going to get my usual 4 hrs of shut-eye before groundhog day starts again. I also still have to add a row for coil-bind (which can be VERY important when selecting lift specs on a cam).

LX-incredible --> Can you measure up the Bisi Exhaust springs for me too? (If it's not too much more trouble.)

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G_ValveSpringCalcs.jpg

[Tdurr]

the bisi springs are the same all the way around. intake and exhaust are the same :)

and omg i dont even know how to read all that info lol....

[markmdz89hatch]

the bisi springs are the same all the way around. intake and exhaust are the same :)

and omg i dont even know how to read all that info lol....

hold onto your hat because here's the updated version of that sheet...

Now the graph below has spring rates just from a calculation of the spring measurements, which is not as accurate as just putting the spring itself on a spring compression tester and getting the individual specs that way, but given that I don't have $1500.00 to drop on a professional tester right now, and don't have the time to make my own just yet, this will have to do. ...but I did find some plans for a home-made tester that looks as though it'd work well enough for me, so I'll get to that one day.


http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G_ValveSpringCalcs-1.jpg?t=1239832837


Calc used:

http://www.engineering.com/content/community/library/textbooks/springs/images/image0022.gif

Where
G: modulus of rigidity (shear modulus)
d: diameter of spring wires
D: diameter of spring coil
n: number of active coils (see below)

[Tdurr]

hmm. ur #'s show a huge difference from what i saw with my own eyes at the shop. I might toss the stock 88 springs in the car and go to another place and see if i can get the springs tested for rates.

[markmdz89hatch]

...ok, so basically if you take a look at that table, you'll see that much of this is in vain (kinda) because this desire to find the best inexpensive upgrade to the stock valve springs has proven more difficult than originally thought.

As you can see, although the 86-87 and 88-89 springs are VERY different in appearance, the calcs prove that there's less than a 5% difference in their spring rates. Now what's a real kick in the pants is that the exhaust springs are actually WEAKER despite the dual spring, and the more intimidating look to them. (based on the measurements and calcs [which i'm going to verify soon], and assuming the same spring wire material is used across the board).

Now also bare in mind that these specs are derived from an uncompressed spring measurement. All (or at least most) of the springs are progressively wound as opposed to linear, so their spring rates should really be line graphed to see what rates are attained at certain height intervals all the way to coil bind. You'll also want to consider that coil bind spec very carefully when determining if the lift on your cam is going to work without resulting in a coil bound spring.

[markmdz89hatch]

hmm. ur #'s show a huge difference from what i saw with my own eyes at the shop. I might toss the stock 88 springs in the car and go to another place and see if i can get the springs tested for rates.

But note the * on the table which states that the modulus of rigidity number that was used was for that of carbon steel. While it may not be the material used on our springs, all the final spring rates % of change between each should be accurate.

If the machine shop, or Bisi, has any more insight on the actual material used for the springs, if I need to make any corrections, iI can certainly do just that.

Either way, one note that can be made is that the bisi intake springs should only be used with 86-87 oem retainers. Keepers (thanks to you) we now know can be used from any oem 3G intake springs.

[Tdurr]

hmm... when i had the springs tested for #s they guy did go to coil bind. almost all of the coils were flat on each other. but i assumed the springs were progressive. Hell I need to call bisi, and tell him to put that his springs only work for the early years, and ill ask him if they are progressive or linear.
edit: yea, I assumed they were different materials. the bisi springs i think had some sort of coating, or were rougher to the touch then the stock springs.

[markmdz89hatch]

hmm... when i had the springs tested for #s they guy did go to coil bind. almost all of the coils were flat on each other. but i assumed the springs were progressive. Hell I need to call bisi, and tell him to put that his springs only work for the early years, and ill ask him if they are progressive or linear.
edit: yea, I assumed they were different materials. the bisi springs i think had some sort of coating, or were rougher to the touch then the stock springs.

...save yourself the call about whether or not they're progressive or linear. The Bisi's are linear, while all the stockers (exhaust, 86-87 intake and 88-89 intake) are all progressive.

The bisi's may be the same wire material, but as you pointed out, they may have some protective or 'performance' coating on them. I don't have any so I don't know.

Any idea what kind of machine the shop used to test the spring rates? I'm not questioning them at all, I'm just curious to see what tester options are out there because the one mfg that I found charges a pretty penny for their professional testers.

Edit: I do agree though that they should be called and told about the need to specify that 86-87 intake retainers (and seats, or more prefferably exhaust seats) should be used with these, and NOT to use them with 88-89 retainers.

Did you have the chance to swap them out yet? ...any chance you know how much the j/y would hit you for a set of the 8 86-87 retainers and keepers, and 8 exhaust seats?

[Tdurr]

im just going to gank the retainers lol. fuck paying for them. I'll prob try and get a rear sway bar tho.

and the tester was a simple one. Let me see if i can find a pic..
http://cottenauctions.com/Mangis/images/spring%20tester.JPG

this is it lol. simple right?

[cygnus x-1]

You could test springs with a bathroom scale, a ruler, and a press. Put the scale on the press with a flat plate on it to spread the spring force out over the surface. Put the spring on the plate and start smashing. Measure the spring length and corresponding scale reading.

C|

[Tdurr]

You could test springs with a bathroom scale, a ruler, and a press. Put the scale on the press with a flat plate on it to spread the spring force out over the surface. Put the spring on the plate and start smashing. Measure the spring length and corresponding scale reading.

C|

sounds ghetto as fuck. and id prob break something if i tired it lol.

[markmdz89hatch]

sounds ghetto as fuck. and id prob break something if i tired it lol.

...but it works fairly well. Cygnus is right, for a low budget tester with decent accuracy, a standard bathroom scale, along with a few other household goods will yield you decent results.

I'm looking into a spring tester similar to the one you posted, but that Rimac is WAY beyond my budget. Those 'simple' looking tools will ding you between 700 and 100 depending on where you buy it from. Faak that.

Does anyone know the installed height of our springs? (Both intake and exhaust.) I looked into a few valve spring height micrometers, but they all look too bulky to fit our heads.

[Tdurr]

...but it works fairly well. Cygnus is right, for a low budget tester with decent accuracy, a standard bathroom scale, along with a few other household goods will yield you decent results.

I'm looking into a spring tester similar to the one you posted, but that Rimac is WAY beyond my budget. Those 'simple' looking tools will ding you between 700 and 100 depending on where you buy it from. Faak that.

Does anyone know the installed height of our springs? (Both intake and exhaust.) I looked into a few valve spring height micrometers, but they all look too bulky to fit our heads.

lol tools are a rip off. but ill get installed heights of the bisi springs when i change out the retainers.

[markmdz89hatch]

schweetness. ...actually, when are you planning on swapping those out? I may have a possible suggestion for you. I just spent the last two days on the phone with Ferrea and CompCams for over 3 hours combined. Those guys like to talk, and I like to listen and ask questions, which leads to a 'minutes used' disaster.

[Tdurr]

dono. maybe this weekend. Need specs on something im assuming.

[cygnus x-1]

I was out at the JY today so I checked all the 3g Accords and the one 2g Prelude. All the '88 and '89 Accords had the smaller intake springs. The single '86 had large springs and the single '87 also had large springs. The '87 Prelude had large springs.

C|

[markmdz89hatch]

ok, guys, i posted this on the PP thread too, but it belongs here as well.

ok, new table now including Rich's specs on the A18 Exhaust springs.

That confirms it then, if Rich thinks the A18 exhausts may be even a bit too stiff on his setup (I'm with him on that one), then these Bisi's are just way too stiff. It's not that it's going to cause a sudden catastrophic failure, but you'll be sure to wear out the cam bearings and scrub the piss out of the cam lobes with the rockers. Worse yet, because they are linear, there's no softer 'seating' of the valve on spring rebound, so the likely-hood of valve bounce is all but guaranteed.

That truly sucks to say that too.

Anyway, here's the table:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G_ValveSpringCalcs_v1.jpg?t=1240007381

[markmdz89hatch]

I have to agree with Rich on this one. There's really not a huge problem with float or bounce on these motors with stock springs, unless the springs are really tired. That can be solved by buying new ones from Majestic Honda.

Again, just taking spring rates is not a perfect science because it's a bigger deal to determine the rate at installed height as well as weight at max lift.

But just looking at that table, if it's a stronger setup we're after, using the A18 Inner exhaust springs with A20 Outer Exhaust would get you to 223.473 lbs from the stock 186.5 or 190 lb. That's plenty strong enough to keep the float at a min, and avoid bounce, while keeping the stress on the cam lobes and head bearings to a decent compromise.

Personally, I checked out using the exhaust retainers with intake keepers, and I'm not a big fan at all. You can't use the exhaust keepers because the inner radius of the keepers is made for the 6.9mm exhaust stems, and not the 6.54mm intake stems.

gotta run, but more on that later....


I was out at the JY today so I checked all the 3g Accords and the one 2g Prelude. All the '88 and '89 Accords had the smaller intake springs. The single '86 had large springs and the single '87 also had large springs. The '87 Prelude had large springs.

C|

Sweet deal. Thanks man. I really want to get my hands on a set of these A18 springs. Both intake and exhaust, so I can measure each up and (eventually) test them in the spring tester.

[LX-incredible]

Lame, they are indeed ridiculously stiff... would probably wear the cam and trash our shitty head bearings in no time. I really wish they used replacable bearings instead of this aluminium bullshit.

Good job finding the facts on this one. At least we only had two buy them...

[rjudgey]

I still think there usefull but only if you have some machining done and muck around with a combination of valves and retainers to get the installed height good so that they aren't mega compressed and straining the rest of the parts too much.
I'd be interested in a set but I'd probably just use the outer springs with the A18 inners.
I build my heads with a certain rpm in mind and then choose the spring rates and springs that will give me that so that i don't loose too much to frictional losses. I did a big thread on this before which spring combo for which cam and rpms.
Also the biggest advantage of Bisi springs over stock is the fact we can run cams with 12-13mm lift the stock springs won't allow that much lift without increasing the installed height which will then weaken the installed spring rate. So the Bisi springs aren't all bad news.

[MessyHonda]

ok guys...this is good info but the spring is stiff...it will wear out the cam a bit faster.

[Rendon LX-i]

I notice that also...i have a a20a1 block and took the head off today since im building it...well anyway i see the intake valve springs as alot smaller...when i changed v/c on my A3 damn..difference is really noticable...but same results as in reving high? i think the 86 head is better then the 88/89 just by looking at the heads..Flowing i would think the same..but im prolly use the my 86 head anyway

[Rendon LX-i]

can i can confrim that the 86 a20a3 has bigger springs both intake and exhaust...i just looked the intake is TINY on the a1 head maybe since it carbed..but damn...what a difference...

[markmdz89hatch]

can i can confrim that the 86 a20a3 has bigger springs both intake and exhaust...i just looked the intake is TINY on the a1 head maybe since it carbed..but damn...what a difference...

So it seems it's not a matter of DX, LX, or LX-i, but rather what years it came from. As a general rule of thumb we're seeing that 86-87's use the larger diameter springs, while 88-89 use the smaller.

Aesthetically, the 86-87's look stronger, but take a look at the tables I posted earlier in the thread, and you'll see that (at least on paper) the 88-89's are actually mildly stronger than the 86's despite their smaller diameter.

[Rendon LX-i]

thats odd...well im using the bisi springs anyhow..

[Tdurr]

so i got some 86 intake retainers thanks to mushroom toy, and took a bunch of pics of the 86+88 intake and exhaust retainers. Ill upload the pics later tonight. :)

[Civic Accord Honda]

86 JDM A20A (no number) head
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5608/0000017v.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4416/0000011z.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3962/0000010n.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6444/0000009a.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7393/0000008q.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5520/0000007lqg.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6219/0000006m.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2050/0000004ele.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8683/0000003j.jpg

[Civic Accord Honda]

its a HF-6 btw

[markmdz89hatch]

I still have no clue what the hell the HF-X means, but I'm sure I'll figure it out soon enough. ...along with the numbers on the cam brackets.

Anyway, given the mass info we already got in the thread courtesy of junkyard runs, and ppl posting up their pics, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that head has been rebuilt, or at least has had the 88-89 springs installed post-factory release.

[Rendon LX-i]

umm..my 86 one is HF-1 and the a1 is HF-11

[markmdz89hatch]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/A20%20heads/Picture003.jpg

[rustlude87]

ok I went to Honda to check some stuff out and this may be interesting to most:

1987 is the only year to have the A18a1
1985-1986 had the ET-2

checked the part numbers and they share the same valve springs

[markmdz89hatch]

ok I went to Honda to check some stuff out and this may be interesting to most:

1987 is the only year to have the A18a1
1985-1986 had the ET-2

checked the part numbers and they share the same valve springs

When you say 'they' share the same springs, are you talking the A18A1 and ET2 only? ...are are they the same as some of the BT, BS, and A20 springs too? Also, exhaust, intake or both?

[Rendon LX-i]

So bs is the same as a a3 correct mark? cause thats what i got but i always say i have a a3 since thats what i was told

[markmdz89hatch]

So bs is the same as a a3 correct mark? cause thats what i got but i always say i have a a3 since thats what i was told

haha, so great you're asking me this today and not 2 days ago. I had either completely forgotten about the BS/BT variants, or somehow never knew it. But John helped me out with that just the other day.

The BS is from the '86 dx/lx 3G, and is the equivalent to the A20A1.
The BT is from the '86 lx-i 3G, and is the equivalent to the A20A3.

However, I do not know of any differences with the block itself, but more-so with the head. Even the head casting (PJ0 / HF-#) appears the same between the two as well. The differences lie in the cam, and top bracket for the rockers from what I can tell. The top bracket difference is specifically for the change in dizzy's from the carb'd to the injected models.

[Rendon LX-i]

i got bt my bad lol mark....BUt i noticed on the a1 head even thou its carb, gots ports like if it was made for FI...i was like what lol...But good to know.

[markmdz89hatch]

i got bt my bad lol mark....BUt i noticed on the a1 head even thou its carb, gots ports like if it was made for FI...i was like what lol...But good to know.

Yep, and it's those little bastard injector cavity 'bumps' that cause some turbulence with the air as it passes through the runners on my DCOE manifold and into the intake ports on the head. DAMN them for doing that. ...now I need to either dig out the runners on the manny to smooth out that transition, or just get the head welded up so I have an oval instead of a diseased oval for an intake port.

[Rendon LX-i]

Shouldnt be a prob for a shop that can weld and youll should be set

[rjudgey]

nope not hard to do thats what i did!

[Smeado]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/NSXPERT/SpringGraph.jpg

FYI :)

Smeado

[Tdurr]

^^ that right there is great info. Who made that chart?

[Smeado]

I did, i used a bathroom scale, caliper, and an accordion jack. I'm guessing I probably have about a 5% error on the calculations. I noticed that the stock springs only have a seated pressure of 40 lbs which seems pretty weak. I was looking at the valve springs on the ferrara site and they all have a seat of about 70 Pounds or more. I don't know. but its a pretty interesting chart either way. Too bad i don't have my A18 head with me or i could check those valves too.

Smeado

[Tdurr]

nice, the bisi springs on that chart is both the outter + the inner correct?

[Smeado]

nice, the bisi springs on that chart is both the outter + the inner correct?

yup.

[Tdurr]

kthx
all i wanted to kno. I guess i dont have to worry about valve float(again) then lol.

[2drSE-i]

So what you guys are saying, and correct me if im wrong, is that in order to run full bisi valve springs without wearing out bearings super fast, you need to run the installed height pretty high to prevent valve bounce? Thats pretty upsetting news

[markmdz89hatch]

well, with the stock installed height (based on Smeado's graph), the stock is somewhere around 40 lbs, while bisi is somewhere near 90 lbs. That's not terrible, but because they're a linear spring, their weight at 35-40mm height is significantly higher than stock. While that and the higher rate at installed height will help avoid bounce, you do still run that risk far more than with stockers.

I can't be certain (yet) but I believe the A18 exhaust inner/outer springs are wound in the opposite direction of the A20 exhaust, so using the A18 inners could work great with the Bisi outers. I'll take more pics soon and see if I can tap the brain of someone with an A18 head to verify this.

All that said, I personally would worry about the added stressed imposed by the Bisi springs, and worry about the journals/bearings excessively wearing, added friction on the cam lobes, stress on the valve stems and heads from the increased spring rates. ...and the list goes on.

To me, a great setup is looking like the Bisi outers with A18 (pending specs) or A20 inners. It's a slightly stiffer spring setup that should allow us to rev a bit higher before float, and should keep the stresses to a more tolerable level.

[Tdurr]

I kno the stock a20 inners will fit with the bisi outers on the exhaust so yea.
btw, I am finally gonna be switching out the retainers. I finally got the time to do so.
If you want any pics of anything special lmk and ill try my best.

[Smeado]

I can't be certain (yet) but I believe the A18 exhaust inner/outer springs are wound in the opposite direction of the A20 exhaust, so using the A18 inners could work great with the Bisi outers. I'll take more pics soon and see if I can tap the brain of someone with an A18 head to verify this.


No they wind the same as the A20 and other honda ones. below is an ET2 head.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/NSXPERT/IMG_0006-2.jpg

PS. this is the setup i used to measure the valve spring rates. A bit Getto but it worked fantastic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/NSXPERT/0504091315.jpg

[Rendon LX-i]

looks like my head i have now...my BS

[rjudgey]

Damn thats a shame looks like you guys bummed out on the ET valve springs as well they are definately not the same ones as i have on my ET and A18 heads! bummer!

[Tdurr]

fyi everyone, i couldn't get my retainers changed out. I need a good valve spring compressor tool.

[Tdurr]

btw, i Called bisi yesterday and spoke with the tech department and informed them about the year split on the heads and their springs only working with the 86-87 retainers+seats.

[MessyHonda]

btw, i Called bisi yesterday and spoke with the tech department and informed them about the year split on the heads and their springs only working with the 86-87 retainers+seats.

good to know....so yeah i might have to pick up a valve compressor tool also

[2drSE-i]

I got a reply from Bisi the other day and I'll post it up. This was before Tdurr informed him of the difference in heads.

David,
We will address your concerns in the order posed:
1. We are working on a no-slip cam gear for the A-series, and should hit the marker late next month
2. Using the exhaust retainers on the intake are fine. The fitment was tested without failure on both the intake and exhaust, but we find the lighter stock exhaust retainers appealing.
3. If there is a need for custom chromoly (or the more expensive titanium) retainers we can do so with a minimum count of 20 sets. The chromoly retainer set of 12 can be manufactured for $160 a set, and the titanium for $240 a set.

Thank you for your interest in Bisimoto Engineering's technology.

[Rendon LX-i]

Thats good to know...

[Tdurr]

well. Bisi cam gear.. and retainers! new grad present haha!!

And I TOLD U SO!!! that was using exhaust retainers on in intake was fine. ppl not listing to me. fucking .3mm wont make something that is v shaped not get tight.

[2drSE-i]

remember though tdurr, he recieved an 86-87 head, which have the larger intake retainers. we were warning you against using the intake retainers, which looked way too small

[MessyHonda]

yeah i might have to save up for some retainers

[Rendon LX-i]

im good i have 86 head

[MessyHonda]

im good i have 86 head

yeah it might be cheaper to go with new retainers from honda....they are only like 4 bucks a pop...but il go ask again for the 86 ones

[2drSE-i]

Remember he said minimum order of 20 for titanium or chromoly retainers.

[LX-incredible]

Right, we all know that's going to happen. :rolleyes:



...Put me down for 2. lol

[MessyHonda]

Right, we all know that's going to happen. :rolleyes:



...Put me down for 2. lol



lol

hey im down for the a20 now that i got a hot engine...hehe

[2drSE-i]

I think 20 wouldn't be too bad to find. 160 a set really isnt bad for chromoly retainers. I dont really think that even bisi thinks its necessary, our retainers are great, lightweight and pretty durable.

[Rendon LX-i]

Right, we all know that's going to happen. :rolleyes:



...Put me down for 2. lol

Aaaa easy now...we not BALLER status like you

[Tdurr]

remember though tdurr, he recieved an 86-87 head, which have the larger intake retainers. we were warning you against using the intake retainers, which looked way too small

no no no. u got me wrong. Im talking about EXHAUST retainers, using those on the intake side. I said u could use them no problem and ppl freaked out about .959853029842309mm difference in diameter.

and id deff be down for a set along with the cam gear. Wanna start a GB thread someone?

[markmdz89hatch]

...and honestly, i'm still not all that comfortable with doing it. ...but that's just me, and I've been told more than once that I'm very anal about my cars, and making sure everything is done as close to by the book as possible.

[Tdurr]

The Book. Fuck it

gotta learn how to use what you have on hand.

btw, i still have the 88 retainers on haha. Taken the car to 7200 on accident... 6500 a bunch(racing shift point, has a cool backfire when i let off here too haha)

[LX-incredible]

Aaaa easy now...we not BALLER status like you

Baller? lol No! I just take every chance I can to gather what I can. There are not going to be opportunities like this in the future...