PGM light on - 12 blinks anyone encounter this b4?

[ArokASE88LXi]

so i just got the transmission back in my 86 lxi (shifts much better btw) engine seems to be running fine now but the pgm light comes on after about 10 min of driving (did this before the transmission as well) ecu flashes 12 times i made sure and counted them several times. manual says to substitute known good ecu. has anyone else ever gotten 12 blinks before? is this possibly that internal problem that can be fixed by re-soldering something inside the ecu itself?? and one last question... will the ecu from my 88 lxi work in my 86 lxi?? if so i do have a spare that i think didn't have any problems before i pulled every last spare part off of. Thanks guys!!

[Ichiban]

How to check your ECU codes:
1. move driver seat all the way forward.
2. locate the box on the floor.
3. locate the small plastic window and pop it open.
4. turn the ignition on.
5. count how many times the light blinks.
6. refer to the table below.

ECU CODES for 86-89 accord and 85-89 prelude

Ok I think we finally got this fixed now.. These are the correct codes..

00 LED FLASH(s) ECU

01 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
Oxygen Sensor "A" (Primary)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

02 LED FLASH(s) 85-89 Accord
Oxygen Sensor "B"
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

03 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

04 LED FLASH(s) Crank Angle

05 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 * Accord
MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
mechanical problem / disconnected piping
* exc. 94-95

06 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
ECT Sensor (Engine Coolant Temperature)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

07 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
TP Sensor (Throttle Position)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

08 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
TDC Sensor (Top Dead Center)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

09* LED FLASH(s) 85-98** Accord
CYP Sensor (Cylinder)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* not a valid code for any throttle body injection Hondas
** not a valid code for V-6 engines

10 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
IAT Sensor (Intake Air Temperature)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

12 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

13 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
BARO Sensor (Atmospheric Pressure)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

14 LED FLASH(s) 88-98 Accord
IAC Valve (Idle Air Control)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
IAC VALVE HELP

15 LED FLASH(s) Ignition output signal

16 LED FLASH(s) fuel injector

17 LED FLASH(s) 88-98 Accord
VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
__________________
Alex.

[Civic Accord Honda]

yep code 12 = cancer in your egr

[ArokASE88LXi]

well that helps a lot but it's weird though too. i downloaded the manual (from somewhere here) and 12 was not listed neither was anything above 13. anyway i transplanted the one from the spare already (i'm kinda stupid brave that way) and now it flashes 17 times for the speed circuit (however doesn't flash 12 anymore weird) and i'm guessing the 86's didn't come with a speed circuit at least i didn't see any while rebuilding the transmission. So i guess i'll clean out the egr valve and put the old ecu back in and see what happens anyway thanks guys!!

[ecogabriel]

The table with codes in the manual is for European Accords that is why the code table is different.
I got the service manual for the US Accord (1989 model) and that one has the codes that are for our cars although there are a slight difference with O2 sensors (86-87 have one sensor, 89 (and 88?) have two O2)

12 blinks is problem with EGR; that was the code my car had when I bought it. Either the position sensor at the top of the valve went bad or the diaphragm is punctured.

As for the other code (Code 17, speed circuit) I believe it is located in the instrument cluster itself. Try swapping the cluster and see what happens.

[ArokASE88LXi]

well that helps a lot i'll look at swappin the inst. cluster tommorrow when there's more light (donor lxi sits in the field behind the shop) weird thought that the one ecu has an egr code and no speed circuit code and the other ecu has the speed circuit code and no egr code!!! its a little frustrating lol. guess i'll look at fixing both problems (if they really exist)... all while muttering to myself... I love my 3g, I love my 3g, I love my 3g (i'll convince myself ha ha)

[ecogabriel]

I know the cruise control uses information about speed. since the speed sensor in the transmission is mechanical the other place for an electronic device is attached to the cluster

Now i see you asked about ECU; sorry my mind is completely wasted today. I am not sure that 88-89 can be swapped into 86-87.
One difference is the O2 sensors (1 for 86-87, 2 for 88-89 I think), another difference is the intake; in 89 (and 88?) has a second port that opens under ECU command for better breathing at high rpms (what a sophistication! by the way).... and I do not know if there is something else I' missing. Probably the wiring is close enough for one to work on the other but the newer one would "miss" some circuits. I hope some guy that actually got his fingers on this issue can reply here

BAck to the EGR, if you got a code 12 swap the valve for a known working one; you may even test the old one with a vacuum pump and a voltmeter. I remember putting one probe on the middle connector terminal and another in one of the end ones and applying vacuum. Volt readings should change when applying vacuum. Then try the middle connector and the other end terminal, apply vacuum and check readings. I believe I saw some procedure to test EGR in the 89 usdm manual

[ArokASE88LXi]

ok this is what i've figured out today the 88-89 ecu will work fine in an 86-87 however the light will come on because that second friggin o2 sensor isn't there. also yesterday when i initally tried it i got 17 flashes for the vss vehicle speed sensor however according to the info guyhatesmycar displayed that code is only for 88-98 accords leading me to believe that my 86 does not have a vss (lol big deal) so the only codes it comes up with now are for sensors it doesn't even friggin have! of course with this ecu i no longer have an egr code comin up. so i don't know what the heck i'm gonna do maybe i'll take out the egr and test it/clean the crap out of it and put the old ecu back in and try it some more. i'll have to try to find my egr valve from the 88 and see if maybe that one will work also. anyways thanks for the help!

[ArokASE88LXi]

oh and about that second intake port on the 88-89's that just opens under vacuum i thought. when i took the engine out of the 88 i just had to get that apart and look at it. it is really neat!! dunno maybe the ecu commands a vacuum valve that opens it i dunno but i wish i could incorporate that into my 86!!

[Civic Accord Honda]

well what im thinking is the egr code just is not showing yet on the 88 ecu.. it took my legend some 35 minute drives sometimes before it would light, i would swap the 86 ecu back in and install the egr from your parts car and see if that helps

[ArokASE88LXi]

ya that's what im thinkin. before i did the trans it would seem to consistently come on after 10-15 minute drive times as well as yesterday when i drove it it came on every 10 minute drive time. today i drove it twice for 30 minutes each and it didn't come on but who knows maybe its just tryin to piss me off lol but ya i'll switch the valves and the ecu's and see what happens!

[ecogabriel]

The EGR code may take a little to show up depending on the kind of failure. Mine had the position sensor damaged so the very first time it tried to open the ECU would realize it was not working so I would see the light coming on after 2-3 minutes of driving.

You'll have the codes for the sensors the 88-89 ECU cannot find. The second intake runner opens by ECU command.
I have somewhere the USDM manual for the 89 (note: the US domestic market manual so the one precisely for ours) and the schematic shows (I'm citing from memory) a solenoid that is operated by the ECU which in turn operates the vacuum that opens/closes the second runner.

Yeah, I'd like to have one of those installed and working too. I suspect that it may give
some marginal improvement in performance -better air velocity at lower engine speeds, more breathing at high rpms. Not sure if it is worth the pain though...

The 88-89 EGR should work; in fact mine came from a junkyard and I did not bother looking at what year the car was. This valve has a slightly smaller port but it works perfect nonetheless. You should try finding it, testing it and keeping it safe; those pieces of crap cost well above $150 if new and if you have to pass emissions in your area you'll need it

[ecogabriel]

Found it! I am reading the 89 USDM manual.... 17 blinks=VSS (vehicle speed sensor) (PGM-FI). that is on the troubleshooting chart (page 12-11)

NOtice that this manual is different than the 86-89 I got from here; the 86-89 applies to europeans allthough there are quite a bit of similarities of course. The one I got is a scanned copy of a paper manual; I found it one day while surfing the net. I can pass it along only if I were to know how to upload it (it is 30mb in size)

[Dr_Snooz]

Are you referring to this one?

http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php

[ecogabriel]

Yes, that's the one.

[ecogabriel]

The only "negative" thing about it is that you have to navigate it page by page; I could not find an index pointing out to the different sections.

[ArokASE88LXi]

ya i got this one downloaded only problem is it's for the 89. the 86 aand i believe 87 had a lot of differences in the vacuum lines

[ArokASE88LXi]

i don't care if i have to buy one to get my exact year but i can't seem to find one that's just for 86 not 86-89 any suggestions??

[Dr_Snooz]

The only "negative" thing about it is that you have to navigate it page by page; I could not find an index pointing out to the different sections.

There're bookmarks. Just have to click the button to reveal them. The best part about that manual is that it has my hand-written notes on R12 to R134a conversion.

:rofl:

[ArokASE88LXi]

well strugglebucket had a link for the manual specifically for the 86 the vacuum systems are actually quite different between 86-87 and 88-89 unfortunately making a lot of intake parts on my 88 parts car useless to me but oh well it's all a learning deal i guess! you guys know where i can get different color vacuum hoses? i think that would look kinda neat in like red or green or blue or something... as you'll find out i'm like addicted to green lol

[ecogabriel]

How the f... I never saw the bookmarks before? I am reading f... PDFs all day long (papers for my diss.) and I am familiar with them... never mind; bookmarks are there and that is all what matters

Hey Snooz thanks for the manual by the way.

I know there are differences in vacuum lines between early and late 3gs; also, I saw that late 3gs have a power steering sensor to increase idle speed that 86-87s do not have. I remember one of the european accord version on the other manual had a vacuum diagram that was closer (if not similar) to the U.S. model.

Color-coded vacuum lines? I dunno; but I have seen labels and straps to code electrical wiring that I believe was number-coded. That would be good if one can match numbering between new and old.
Maybe something like this might be helpful. It is for wiring but because vacuum lines are not very thick there may be a few that might work
http://www.mouser.com/search/Refine.aspx?N=254622&No=50

[Ichiban]

Can we update that page I quoted? I hate reposting bad (or irrelevant) information.

Plus, when I stuff the B20A into my 2g, I'm gonna need to know a proper list of codes and required sensors to make the PJ5 ECU run right. Like does the PJ5 require a barometric pressure sensor or which (or both) VSS?

[ArokASE88LXi]

Can we update that page I quoted? I hate reposting bad (or irrelevant) information.

Plus, when I stuff the B20A into my 2g, I'm gonna need to know a proper list of codes and required sensors to make the PJ5 ECU run right. Like does the PJ5 require a barometric pressure sensor or which (or both) VSS?

I thought the page you quoted was pretty well done it has the VSS code in it didn't it? oh your tryin to see if it needs a VSS in the 2g but there isn't one in a 2g right? I'm still tryin to find the exact manual for mine but the one i just downloaded is finally one for an 86 but i'm pretty sure its european (No mention of KA or KL just KX and KE) frustrating but i'll find it. btw my 86 Lxi doesn't say A20A3 (like i thought it was) like my 88l lxi block it just says BT then a serial number you know what that's about??

[Ichiban]

I thought the page you quoted was pretty well done it has the VSS code in it didn't it? oh your tryin to see if it needs a VSS in the 2g but there isn't one in a 2g right? I'm still tryin to find the exact manual for mine but the one i just downloaded is finally one for an 86 but i'm pretty sure its european (No mention of KA or KL just KX and KE) frustrating but i'll find it. btw my 86 Lxi doesn't say A20A3 (like i thought it was) like my 88l lxi block it just says BT then a serial number you know what that's about??

What I'm doing is swapping an entire PGM-FI system from a New Zealand B20A goldtop car into my car. I also noticed on the PJ5 ECU that there is an LED for displaying codes for PGM-IG. Apparently nobody knows what any of the PGM-IG codes are.

BT was the engine code for the 86 fuel injected engine, I have one that I bought that has BT1 stamped into the block. Mine is also a canadian version.

[AccordB20A]

mike, PJ5 is the same as the 85-87 ph3... has no EGR no IACV no baro sensor and the vss wont throw a code if its missing.

pgm-IG codes are "if the light flashes any amount of times you have fail on your ignitor/crank sensor circuit" :D

[ecogabriel]

My 86 lxi block also says "BT" and a serial number; it's normal for that year.

[MessyHonda]

My 86 lxi block also says "BT" and a serial number; it's normal for that year.

yeah most 86 engines say bt i think 87 and up they just called them a20s