B20A1 - ticking rpm, car struggles

[piter]

I have 87 Prelude 2.0i-16 with EDM B20A1 gold top engine. I know this forum is related to Acc, but my question is related to engine/ignition system which is quite similar to B20A2/A8.

Here are the symptoms:

1) when car idles: I raise the engine speed to around 6000rpm and then release accelerator pedal suddenly. The tacho needle have some strange ticks - I can see on tacho something like this: 6000-5000-5500 (TIK!)-4500- 5000(TIK) and so on. Idle speed is normal (around 850rpm +/-) and stable.

2) during drive: I'm driving with constant speed. Engine speed is for example 3000rpm. Suddenly the tacho needle starts to tick for about +/- 500rpm.

3) during acceleration: engine speed on tacho doesn't grow smooth. Normally I should see 4000-4100-4200-(...)-4500 - but I can see 4000-(engine revs)-4500(TIK!) and then goes smoothly. When this situation occurs I feel that engine doesn't have full power and it little sputters. I can hear little changed sound of engine.

4) during acceleration - only one time situation - car struggles, lack of power and smoothness, tacho needle ticks. The only way to accelerate fluent is to very gently push the accelerator pedal. I can also hear changed sound of engine.

Situation number 4 happend only one time. Usually when symptoms occur I have to deal with situation 2 and / or 3. Sometimes also no. 1.

The symptoms come in suddenly - and so - go off. Without any noticeable signal. Sometimes they are for few seconds, sometimes for minutes.

Activities which were made prior to my problem:

-replaced black box (because of increased fuel consumption - another problem)
-replaced vacuum advance diaphragm
-TPS adjustment
-idle speed adjustment

Since the problem occured I tried the following things:

-return to previous black box
-replaced cap & rotor
-replaced ignition coil
-replaced whole distributor

Unfortunately - no success :(

What is the worst - my problem isn't constant - I can drive for many kilometres and everything is all right - then I can stop on for few minutes, then start the engine and rpm starts to tick during drive.

Do you have any ideas what might be wrong? The only thing I'm thinking of now is replacing the sparks (they're almost new - replaced 5kkm ago) and ignition wires (they are original). Maybe the TPS adjustment is causing my problem? I don't know...

[carotman]

hmmm you already replaced the parts that usually cause this kind of problem (distributor and coil).

it could come from a bad tach wire (that's the blue wire comming out of the distributor)

Check for any loose connections on this one.

[piter]

hm.. you mean one of two cables that go into the distributor which are connected with igniter unit and through it with coil inside of distributor?

If so, this cable was replaced with complete distributor.

However - it doesn't mean, that the other distributor I have used is fully functional but it would be strange if it was giving exactly the same symptoms :)

Btw - if it was this blue cable you have mentioned - would it also cause such problems as struggling (shaking) of the car during acceleration? I thought it only gives the signal to tacho...

[1987AccordLx-i]

ill chime in on this also... im having the same problem with the tach... when i start the car the tach needle jumps to like 4k really quick and goes back down.. all this while cranking the car... and when im driving and im gunning it.. at 4500 rpm the tack jumps to like 6k and back to 4500... its got a new dizzy so idk if the cluster is going bad or if its something else

[b20a86lude]

dude can i please get pics of ur car please please . im a 2g llude fanatic

[piter]

b20a86lude - I'll try to put some photos for you. I have already tried to make my gallery in 3geez garage, but I have this part of forum blocked - I can see other people galleries, but I can't make mine :/

Anyway - back to my car related troubles :)

Since TAS was previously adjusted (but without any measurements) I have re-checked it today. I have checked voltage on ECU pinout, with throttle closed, there was 0.35V. With fully opened throttle there was ca. 4.40V.

According to Service Manual there should be between 0.48V and 0.52V, so I have readjusted TAS. Now it is OK. When throttle is closed I have 0.50V - when it is fully opened there is ca. 4.60V. Voltage grows fluently when I'm pushing accelerator pedal.

I have also tested PA Sensor and MAP Sensor voltages - they are ok. Also Idle Control Solenoid Valve is in order.

With service manual procedure I have set up idle speed.

All in all - the problem still occurs. I've been driving for about 20km and everything was all right. I have stopped for few minutes, started the engine and... ticking tacho needle came back. Few minutes later everything returned to normality.

That's not the first time, when I have following scheme:

-I start the car (cold)
-everything is all right 'till I drive
-then I stop the car for 3-5 minutes with engine off
-when I start the engine and problem comes
-after few minutes it goes away...

maybe that is the key? When I turn off the engine, temperature under the hood naturally grows (cooling fan doesn't operate in 2nd gen Prelude, when the engine is not running)....

Any ideas? :)

What would you say for replacing Fuel Main Relay? I have spare one. Can it be related to my problems?

[piter]

ok... no suggestions ;)

I've replaced few other things :

-fuel main relay
-ignition wires
-spark plugs

no change :(

[1987AccordLx-i]

i wonder if changing the cluster would do it? ive been thinking about this and thats what ive come up with so far

[piter]

i wonder if changing the cluster would do it? ive been thinking about this and thats what ive come up with so far
that's the next step I am thinking about now ;) Tomorrow evening I'll get two clusters from Prelude from my friend and probably on Saturday I'll be testing it.

I'll keep you informed :)

[1987AccordLx-i]

that's the next step I am thinking about now ;) Tomorrow evening I'll get two clusters from Prelude from my friend and probably on Saturday I'll be testing it.

I'll keep you informed :)

yeah man cuz the bouncing needle is annoying... and now my gauge is indicating the wrong rpm... at 70mph im at 3k rpm.. now its at 2.5rpm so i kinda have a sign that the cluster might be goin out

[piter]

yeah man cuz the bouncing needle is annoying... and now my gauge is indicating the wrong rpm... at 70mph im at 3k rpm.. now its at 2.5rpm so i kinda have a sign that the cluster might be goin out
actually I haven't managed to replace the cluster... yet :)

Yesterday I've put on the third distributor and it works. I'm not quite sure if it solved my problem definitely since it does happen from time to time. Currently, I've driven about 100km and everything seems to be in order... but still I'm not convinced that it was the distributor.

I'll test it for few days and I'll keep you informed...

[1987AccordLx-i]

actually I haven't managed to replace the cluster... yet :)

Yesterday I've put on the third distributor and it works. I'm not quite sure if it solved my problem definitely since it does happen from time to time. Currently, I've driven about 100km and everything seems to be in order... but still I'm not convinced that it was the distributor.

I'll test it for few days and I'll keep you informed...

ill be waiting :cheers:

[piter]

ill be waiting :cheers:
so far so good. I've made about 350 km since I have replaced distributor and everything is in order.

I'll test it further for few days and then I'll back to one of previous distributors. If problem will come back, it'll mean that distributor is guilty (or sth in it - don't know what? igniter unit? pickup coil?).

[1987AccordLx-i]

so far so good. I've made about 350 km since I have replaced distributor and everything is in order.

I'll test it further for few days and then I'll back to one of previous distributors. If problem will come back, it'll mean that distributor is guilty (or sth in it - don't know what? igniter unit? pickup coil?).

well i made a discovery on my distributor.. my vac advance is cracked so its leaking... i put silicone over the crack but idk if it would last me much longer.. but glad to hear your still going :cool:

[piter]

well i made a discovery on my distributor.. my vac advance is cracked so its leaking... i put silicone over the crack but idk if it would last me much longer.. but glad to hear your still going :cool:
tell me, was the vaccum advance cause of your tacho problem?

I'm wondering what might be bad with my original distributor...

[1987AccordLx-i]

tell me, was the vaccum advance cause of your tacho problem?

I'm wondering what might be bad with my original distributor...

at the moment i cant really tell... im short on money and cant get another advance but i think its retarding the timing too much on startup and it sounds like the engine wants to spin backwards (0_o) if i can ill try to take a vid of it glitching as i say and ill post the link.. but its wierd because it only does it when it wants to

EDIT: but i also thought about your problem... if i remember correctly there might be connections inside the distributor on the cap side.. could possibly be that one of the connections is going bad or just giving the wrong readout.. wouldnt hurt to check the mechanical parts and all that

[Civic Accord Honda]

my civic was doing the same stuff and then the dizzy died lol replaced it with a new one now its all better

[piter]

my civic was doing the same stuff and then the dizzy died lol replaced it with a new one now its all better

yes... but I am wondering what might be wrong with the distributor.

Other question - did you notice reduced fuel consumption after replacing dizzy?

[Civic Accord Honda]

i think its a CYP sensor or something like thats inside the dizzy that goes out and cuases the tach to act up and acceleration delay but mine also had badly cracked wires inside of it and a worn bearing and the cap and rotor wore original

and ive only drivin it once since ive changed it so unsure of any changes in fuel economy im hoping its improved since the old dizzy needed a cap and rotor badly and it had old plugs which i also changed :D

[EX-ileAccord]

I've been having a similar problem with mine too (gold top b20). I tried different dist, wires, ignighter, which at first I thought for sure it was because the car was acting like it had a fuel cut. Its possible that the dist you tried had a bad ignighter. On the vacc advance the ignighter is on the dist, on mine its a separate part. Right now my alt shit the bed, so that may have been playing a part in the problem too, but I won't know in till I find another alt.

[b20a86lude]

dude can u get me some lude parts also i know wat it is i think its called a igntier box not sure but its square and sits behind ur coil bolted on with a 10mm bolt change that and see if it fixes the problem . can u go to honda and get me something

[piter]

dude can u get me some lude parts also i know wat it is i think its called a igntier box not sure but its square and sits behind ur coil bolted on with a 10mm bolt change that and see if it fixes the problem . can u go to honda and get me something
what engine do you have? In B20A1 dizzy, igniter unit is in the distributor under metal cover. If you have JDM B20A I think I won't be able to help Maybe something from 3rd gen Prelude will fit?

[2ndGenGuy]

Typically when the ignitors go bad, they'll start going all haywire like that. Replacing your distributor usually takes the ignitor with it. I'd bet that's what was happening.

[piter]

Typically when the ignitors go bad, they'll start going all haywire like that. Replacing your distributor usually takes the ignitor with it. I'd bet that's what was happening.
so replacing only igniter unit should do the job ;)

Do you know if faulty igniter unit would affect fuel consumption also? Since I replaced dizzy I observe radically reduced fuel consumption (10l/100km in city instead of 13l before)...

[b20a86lude]

yea i got the jdm b20a but i dont need engine parts i need exteroior parts and interior wat im lookin for i need u to got to honda and request a parts catalog or see if they can print diagrams . if they do get a print out of the bumber lay it i have usdm layout but i want the jdm layout diagram i need about 19 ba1 layaouts diagrams plz hope u can help

[piter]

I think that JDM parts in polish Honda dealer are rather unreachable... :(

[b20a86lude]

dont think try plz

[bullard123]

what engine do you have? In B20A1 dizzy, igniter unit is in the distributor under metal cover. If you have JDM B20A I think I won't be able to help Maybe something from 3rd gen Prelude will fit?
Yep. An igniter from a U.S. 3rd gen lude will work. You will have to run wires to the igniter of course

[piter]

Ok. It's been over two months since I 've got rid off my problem. The one and only cause was the igniter unit! I'm sure for 100%.

I've replaced it with one from B20A3 engine distriibutor (from 3rd gen lude). Anyway - the same igniter can be found in A20A3/A4 (A1/A2 too with Tec dizzy) engines and B20A2/A8 and... many Civic's, Civ Shuttle's, Concerto's, CRX's 1st gen even old Integras - I have found out in EPC that almost every Honda with vaccum advance used the same igniter unit - NEC MC-5357.

Replaced in my original dizzy and everything is fine.