radius rod spherical bearings (work in progress)

[Strugglebucket]

I'm using a McKinney Raceworks spherical bearing kit for a 5g Prelude. It's too big for the accord's frame so I had to drill new holes and turn the parts down to 50mm o.d.

This was actually very tricky to do. It's not the prettiest now that I've hacked it all up, but it should get the job done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010149.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010159.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010147.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010160.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010163.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010165.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010169.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/luby555/P1010177.jpg

[A18A]

looks cool!

[2drSE-i]

So at the risk of sounding like a total dumbass, what is the advantage of a spherical bearing as opposed to poly? I mean obviously it wont wear as quickly and it will wear WAY more evenly, but do you expect to see a large performance advantage from this?

[Tomisimo]

more direct feel from the road to the st.wheel. Rubber absorbes much of vibrations and gets slakk after few hard days at the track, these wont do that.
I know there is also Aluminum gear link busshings for more direct feel witha trenny..

[markmdz89hatch]

I like it a lot. Are you going to sleeve the radius arm where it goes into the bearing? I'm just worried about the threaded section getting torn up, or not being a real tight fit. I really like this.

So the part that you had to turn to reduce its radius... ...it looks like that's nothing more than an aluminum bushing which fits the ID of the radius arm bushing seat in the x-member, and the OD of the bearing itself. Is that correct? ...then, is that top pair (in the first pic) just a plate to secure the bearing in the larger aluminum chunk?

What was the cost of the kit?

I can't stress enough how much I like this idea.

[Rendon LX-i]

i agree with mark...let us know....i like this alot

great work bro

[markmdz89hatch]

I know a couple of machinists that should be able to knock out that aluminum bushing without even blinking. ...and tap it properly.

Maybe they can even do it with a 2 piece bushing and instead of a bearing cap and seat, it would seam at the center point of the bearing so neither piece is a weak skimpy plate.

I'll see if I could work up something goofy in MS Paint to give you an idea of what I mean.

[Tomisimo]

That would be nice Mark, you sud look in to that. If it possible to make those for us, I\ll be one for a set for sure.. Will be overhauling my suspension later and this looks like a good upgrade indeed.
Edit, wait, this means it want work witn tubular crossmember huh?

[markmdz89hatch]

well that's right. If you did this, unless you made a massive cylinder in the tube x-member, you wouldn't use this. If you were to go with a tube x-member, I'd just weld two parallel tabs to the x-member, then cut down the radius arm, and use a heim-joint female threaded end with locking nut to thread onto the radius arm end (very similar to the way tie-rod ends work on the tie-rods.

Pics are to come....

[markmdz89hatch]

here:

*the crossmember drawing is on it's way.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G/radiusarmbushing.jpg

[Nafs Asdf]

here:

*the crossmember drawing is on it's way.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G/radiusarmbushing.jpg

Whoa, the lipking is the king of MS paint too.

[Tomisimo]

Nice Mark :D
waiting for crossmember :)

[markmdz89hatch]

here you go...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G/crossmember.jpg

Struggle --> Sorry for the threadjack, but I'm really excited about your project here.

[Tomisimo]

ouh nice, one bearing isnt that expensive, only 16bucks a pease.. that meant I can make me housing busshing my self and use those bearings :)

[AccordB20A]

this should get rid of the horrible wheel hopping issue i have too i want some

[Strugglebucket]

So at the risk of sounding like a total dumbass, what is the advantage of a spherical bearing as opposed to poly? I mean obviously it wont wear as quickly and it will wear WAY more evenly, but do you expect to see a large performance advantage from this?

The main thing is to get rid of toe changes from the fore/aft deflection of rubber or poly bushings. I'm running honda bushings for the rest of the suspension, so I'll still lose camber under load but I don't really mind that so much, I can always run more static camber. It's the toe changes that I really want to minimize because it will make the car a lot more predictable and consistent, especially under braking and turn in, which is a really good place to be predictable.

I think the wear will probably be worse with the bearing. The moog bushings I had in there would probably have lasted forever.

[Strugglebucket]

here:

*the crossmember drawing is on it's way.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm178/mark_mdz/3G/radiusarmbushing.jpg

The problem with that is that the bearing is bigger than the hole in the frame. And if you enlarged it, then you wouldn't have enough material left on the edges for the bolts to go through.

The thin plates I have are actually made out of stainless and are pretty tough.

[2drSE-i]

I think the wear will probably be worse with the bearing. The moog bushings I had in there would probably have lasted forever.

Poly bushings, although stiffer and better for performance, supposedly wear funny, where they flatten out from the car sitting, causing an () rather than an O

[markmdz89hatch]

The problem with that is that the bearing is bigger than the hole in the frame. And if you enlarged it, then you wouldn't have enough material left on the edges for the bolts to go through.

The thin plates I have are actually made out of stainless and are pretty tough.

gotcha. ...so what about making a slight gap around the circumference of the mating sides of each half which would receive the lip in frame. I was checking out the Aurora catalog earlier today and I'm pretty sure they have a bearing which would have the same inner sleeve diameter, but the OD of the bearing would be a lil-bit smaller. Would that work?

Yeah, SE-i is right. Poly has a tendency to "flat-spot" if it sits too long. The flat-spot should work itself out with some use, but it's a definite pitfall of poly. (or at least this tendency is rumored to do this, but I don't have any concrete evidence). It does make sense though because Poly is a less pliable (aka. ''stiffer'') compound than rubber. idk.

[Strugglebucket]

I think the hole in the frame may actually only be slightly smaller than the bearing. There would still be enough material, it would just be a pain to have to enlarge it.

Here's a link to the Mckinney kit. Check out the installation manual too, as it breaks down how the whole thing goes together.
http://www.mckinneyraceworks.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_33&products_id=32

There was also a place called SBMS Racing (http://www.sbmsinc.com/race_shop.html)that made a kit for civics, but I don't know if the guy is in business anymore. The civic might be the same size as us but I'm not sure.

[Oldblueaccord]

I wonder if the next size smaller Aurora bearing would be a better fit?




wp

[markmdz89hatch]

I wonder if the next size smaller Aurora bearing would be a better fit?

wp

I'm looking into that now too. I spent about 20 mins on the phone with a guy at Aurora bearing last night. This M12T has a 3/4" inner sleeve and the "T" is for Teflon coating. This bearing allows for 9* of misalignment which means only 4.5* either way from center. This might be just fine, but I'm curious to know just how much range of movement the stock suspension demands of the radius arm. They have a ton of different bearings, and there might be one that's a great fit for this.

Struggle, I can't thank you enough for posting this up. I had no idea there were things like this available, and this will really help tighten things up and get rid of the slop associated with the stock setup.

Edit: ...and if I can get my tax ID setup soon enough, and work something out with one of the coupe machinists I know to make the bushings, I don't see why I couldn't at least come close to the McKinney kit price.

[Strugglebucket]

Fortunately for us the radius rods for our cars are long, so they don't have to pivot much to be able to cover the entire suspension range. The big caster adjuster nut will hit the frame long before the bearing runs out of pivot, and also before the chamfering in plates becomes necessary. Which is good because it also means the rod doesn't move enough to hit the nuts on the little retainer bolts even though I've moved them closer to center. I think the Prelude must have shorter rods and therefore need more clearance to pivot.


Struggle, I can't thank you enough for posting this up. I had no idea there were things like this available, and this will really help tighten things up and get rid of the slop associated with the stock setup.

No problem. People have been doing this for years on race cars. At first I was a little skeptical that the bearing would hold up since most spherical bearings (the aurora included, as far as I know) aren't rated for thrust load. The rod end setup like you have in your tubular beam drawing is really ideal, because it loads the bearing axially. But apparently the bearing holds up fine. I have seen spherical bearings with thrust load ratings, but not in metric and not with a self lubricating lining. I think using a bearing that requires lube would be bad idea since it would attract dirt and wear out quicker.

[Ichiban]

I'm wondering if eliminating the bushings and going to a rigid setup like your spherical bearing is going to cause fatigue and cracking on the crossmember. It'd suck pretty bad to hit the brakes one day and have a radius rod pull out of the crossmember, and your front tire smack the fender.

I was also curious why the entire OD of the "mounting bushing" had to be turned down? The pictures make it look like there's plenty of radial clearance, except for the small upset where they actually face up to the crossmember. Am I missing something here, or could you have turned one end of each bushing to a shoulder slightly deeper than the recess in the crossmember? That would leave more meat on for more strength.

Just wondering.

[Strugglebucket]

The recess is deeper than it looks in my picture. If you look at the last pic, the housing only sticks out a tiny bit past where the frame opens up to a wider diameter. I could have left a shoulder but it would only be worth it if I matched the curve of lip just right. My lathing skills aren't that great.


I'm wondering if eliminating the bushings and going to a rigid setup like your spherical bearing is going to cause fatigue and cracking on the crossmember. It'd suck pretty bad to hit the brakes one day and have a radius rod pull out of the crossmember, and your front tire smack the fender.
Yes, that certainly would suck. Should be fine as long there's no play in the bearing housing to allow it to hammer back and forth.

[b20a86lude]

dude i really hate to burst ur bubble but u do know opm mototsports makes then for 3g accords i know cause i bought them for my 2nd gen lude

[lostforawhile]

dude i really hate to burst ur bubble but u do know opm mototsports makes then for 3g accords i know cause i bought them for my 2nd gen ludeLink? these tech threads are always good because someone is always figuring out something for our cars.

[Strugglebucket]

dude i really hate to burst ur bubble but u do know opm mototsports makes then for 3g accords i know cause i bought them for my 2nd gen lude
Damn, wish I would have known! I think I remember someone talking about getting an LSD from them?

Anyway, I got the suspension put together last night. Instead of using the bushing sleeves cut in half like the Mckinney kit says, I wound up using some steel pipe that I cut to size. The cut sleeves were getting squished when I torqued them down. I made a trammel bar out of some wood so I could set the toe and then I ran an autocross in Marina today. Pretty good grip on a concrete surface so they got a good workout and everything held up. I did manage to break the resonator on my exhaust somehow, though.:ugh: Was a long, loud drive home.