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View Full Version : 4340 Chrome Moly H-beam rods



JohnBoy
09-24-2009, 01:13 AM
i been researching for these beam's for our car's but the min. is 40 rods so i was wondering if anyone is enterested in these as well? O and the company makes billet cranks as wall 5 min.

Vanilla Sky
09-24-2009, 03:44 AM
Most of us just run B-series rods with custom pistons. Cheaper in the long run than having both custom rods AND custom pistons.

2drSE-i
09-24-2009, 07:16 AM
A TON cheaper. And our cranks are already pretty strong, but i'd be interested to see a price on a billet crank.

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 08:18 PM
well i'll contact the company and find out more info on the rods and cranks tomorrow

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 08:23 PM
There have been A20 engines around 350HP with the stock crank. No need to upgrade it. You have to have pistons cut to order for this engine anyway, since no one can agree on one compression ratio. Since you have to have custom pistons, just buy off the shelf H-beam rods from a B18 and be done with it?

It's hard to get companies to make one-off parts as it is, so why pursue something that's going to end up really expensive, and no better than what we already have?

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 09:08 PM
the reason is many the crank 350hp isn't enough for what i'm doing, piston i already understand. but rods is a consern if it can't hold the power i'm s.o.l. i've read that our cranks are foraged

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 09:16 PM
There was one of these cars down in the 10's, I believe it was still running a stock crank. Like I said, why try to have something custom made for a LOT of money when you can order them off the shelf for a lot less with only a small amount of work.

to reiterate, B18 rods fit, which means you can get any B18 rods and make them work. There are 600+ HP B18s running off the shelf rods. Why not just pick up some of those with a set of custom pistons that you have to order anyway. If you're concerned about the crank, then send it in for cryotreating.

What are your plans for the car, if you don't mind me asking?

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 09:29 PM
the reasoning for it is a kid i beat with my sand truck was crying because i had a bigger motor then him (he has a s4) so i bet him i could beat him with my honda and it's on now. so 350 and 4 is what i'm shooting for but i still what it driveable, so i've been buying part's and reading treads on here to find out what is the best shit for this car because honda world is about the B,H and K so it make's it diffacult to find parts

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 09:34 PM
An a20 making that much power isn't going to be streetable. How much is at stake and how much are you willing to spend?

Do you have an instant messaging program? I'd like to chat with you that way for a bit about your build.

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 09:43 PM
the stakes orig pinks but now it just bragin rights, he's got a little over 300hp to an awd so the 350 to 4 is the only way i fig i can win even with the fwd and i have the sedan but i'm welding the back doors and tacking the windows in just for weight reasons, but anyways i just don't what the motor to blow after one pass. and i don't have IM because i'm at work right now

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 09:45 PM
Have you ever rebuilt a motor, or will you outsource this to a shop?

And may I ask where you work?

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 09:58 PM
i've built fords and chevy's my whole life and my dad's the top mechanic for the spokane fire department so with tax money i have got all the tools other then machine work. i work at the dealers auto auction just out side spokane. why? what on your mind

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 10:04 PM
You sound like the kind of guy that can pull this off, then.

Are you set on using the A20, or would you be willing to swap? An H22 can hit 400HP a lot easier than an A20. You'll also have more potential power. The cost is negligible now that H22s are being pulled out for K-series swaps. Some welding and some axle building and you're already at 220HP.

If you're stuck with the A20, you're looking at a full rebuild with high-spec parts, and it probably won't be dead reliable, either. You can have a reasonably reliable 400HP H22.

Are you comfortable with forced induction? It doesn't really matter what kind of motor you end up with, you'll be running boost.

Are you able to bid on cars at your auction yourself, or would you have to use the front door and bid with a license?

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 10:17 PM
i've thuogh about the h22 but most of the thing on here say it would be more of a bi*&h to do then a B-swap but i like the H because of the torq. and forced induction i already have a t3/t4 i was going to put on the A. I've bought a cam gear, toga oil pump, and a cult stage 2 tri-flo and 9lb. flywheel were going to be next week

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 10:21 PM
and for the auction you have to be a lic. dealer but i've got my was to get what i need around here

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Okay, looks like you're on your way to an A build.

Get a set of springs from Bisimoto here: http://bisimoto.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_9_130&zenid=n478bk13rshjivctt8lqf17t81

A set of H-Beam rods from Eagle here: http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=40

Call JE up for your pistons, here's their site http://www.jepistons.com/

You will want to improve your intake manifold. The 87 isn't as bad as the later 88/89 manifold, but you can redrill a B16 manifold to fit right on our heads.

You're also going to want to clean up the head casting a good deal. These castings aren't bad by some standards, but I find them kinda boogered.

With a good turbo manifold, you should be there with hardware.

After you have that going, you need to think about engine tuning. I'm a fan of MegaSquirt. Shouldn't set you back all that much, less than $1000 for the whole shebang. You can setup a crankfire ignition, and you'll have full control over your spark tables and fuel map.

Of course, there are a million other supporting mods to think about. You're probably going to break axles until you get mounts strengthened and stronger axles built.

I wish I had the money to put into a car like this. I'd go in another direction, but I wish I had this much money.

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 11:00 PM
so about axle's that was another problem but if i did the teg trany swap then i could have hybred aftermarket one right? i for got the blaster 2 coil pulled from a accord in the junk yard, but i've seen 500 whp civic that were steetable? the mag in front of my lol. i really don't what to sound like a A-hole but money i have saved up its just a matter of making it strong for the most part. i've been reading the the A20 was one the the stronger motors honda's made. it just getting the right part is the problem

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 11:13 PM
It's a Honda iron block. Very strong blocks, they hold a LOT of boost. The forged crank helps out, too.

Streetability comes down to what you're willing to put up with. If you don't mind driving a car that has an on-off switch for a clutch, solid motor mounts, and a bad idle, then sure, you can street it. I like my AC, and I like a smooth car. To me, I wouldn't want to street any of the wild A20 builds that I've seen. A buddy of mine had a mild bolt-on only A20 that got a little annoying on the street. Admittedly, it could have used tuning to take care of it, but we're talking maybe 135HP.

I'm not sure about the axles. I think with boost, you'll be much better off using your current transmission. You want the taller gears.

One thing you should take into account is the weight of your car. You probably have a half-ton weight advantage on him. That means you don't have to get as extreme to kick his ass.

JohnBoy
09-25-2009, 11:26 PM
i'm not bothered by the rough idle like i sayed earlier i've built 1000hp small block's with 3500 stall converters in them the compact thimg is all new to me other then the RB i'm going to in stall in a 72 toy corona. but this honda is all new to me. so hard mounts won't mess up the unibody of the accord though? this was a dabate me and my dad had them or pholy?

Vanilla Sky
09-25-2009, 11:31 PM
I'd go with poly since you plan on using it on the street. You can poly fill with windoweld, but I'm not sure if those will hold up. We don't have any upgrade mounts available to us. You may end up with solid mounts because you'll likely keep breaking anything less.

I don't think you'll have problems with the unitbody in this car. You may want a cage, but that's for your safety, not the rigidity of the car.

JohnBoy
09-26-2009, 07:13 PM
now how about a lsd for the A is the phantom 903 the rigth one?

MessyHonda
09-27-2009, 01:08 PM
now how about a lsd for the A is the phantom 903 the rigth one?

http://store.phantomgrip.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=29

i think that is the one you need

JohnBoy
09-29-2009, 09:07 PM
otay well it's the 902 phantom, so how abhout the best programable ecu

Vanilla Sky
09-29-2009, 09:42 PM
Megasquirt.

Rendon LX-i
09-29-2009, 09:50 PM
or honda obd1 tuned with chrome......This is how i see it. if you boosting take it obd1 and tune it with Tuner an see what he tune with and get it tuned on that program. Here in washington i see alot of chrome thats what im going to be tunning with hear soon. HOPEFULLY if my block is okay or rings. i want 250 on this stock rebuild which i was close. Axles you can get some made for bout 300 a side. which i undestand is alot of DOE but a you want to play you going to have to pay. Tranny. well johnny o pulled a 10s on the stock accord tranny. but everthing else listed and was told by the other members on the rods,pistons,block work,head. is what im doing. on my other build...all the crome holly polly w/e bs is not needed. simple as it gets IS wrote on post 16. couldnt told it better myself. If you where to search you can find plenty of members builds. gives you a good base of what you looking at and what kind of money what you want to spend......Its all bout what you want.

Rendon

JohnBoy
09-29-2009, 10:48 PM
ya i've read a lot and there is a lot of bs that some of the members talk but thats not my consern all i'm looking for is derect awnser because honda is a different relm of cars, olike the write up on the b16 mani is good, and ecu stuff i'm still kind of shanky on. because i could make a carb chev turbo'd no problem. i just need the info so i don't waste money on shit that don't work on the A20 and feel retarded that i spent the money on a h22 stroker block, ya know what i mean

Rendon LX-i
09-30-2009, 11:08 AM
if you can boost a carbed chevy then boost a carbed a20. but my opinion is go F.I if your not not already..get a b series mani...vector x,shunk 2, and so on......go obd1 its not that hard as said. build your botton and top end and boost it......youll have 300 plus out of the box....

Rendon LX-i
09-30-2009, 11:09 AM
Seems like you know what your talking about so i dont have to explain myself. GET ER DONE.

MessyHonda
09-30-2009, 03:38 PM
yeah only get rods if you are going to boast the shit out of it...like 15 psi or more

JohnBoy
10-01-2009, 01:28 AM
so B18 rods will if but they have to be machined out a bit right?

89T
10-01-2009, 02:30 AM
the b18 a/b rods fit with no modification but the wrist pin is larger than the a20's.
that's why you will have to use custom pistons or 83mm b18 a/b pistons.

the only difference will be a extra valve relief and compression ratio may be slightly off.

JohnBoy
10-01-2009, 08:06 PM
so is there a tread about swaping a civic radiator in the 3g

JohnBoy
10-02-2009, 09:23 PM
rods for A20 found www.importperformanceparts.net
toga racing part # toga-5405 for $339

lenght- 137.0
rod- 48.0
pin- 20.0
weight- 580g

the rods are good for 190,000 psi and rated at 600hp and 8,000 rpm
4340 chrome moly

cygnus x-1
10-06-2009, 09:14 AM
rods for A20 found www.importperformanceparts.net (http://www.importperformanceparts.net)
toga racing part # toga-5405 for $339

lenght- 137.0
rod- 48.0
pin- 20.0
weight- 580g

the rods are good for 190,000 psi and rated at 600hp and 8,000 rpm
4340 chrome moly


Hmm. I'm thinking this *may* be a mistake. It says '87-91, which would be the 3g Prelude 2.0L (88-91, B20A5 engine), and probably the "B20A" that came in the 2g Preludes outside the US. I didn't think the A20 rods were compatible with any of the B20 engines, but maybe they are. It's worth looking into anyway. Anyone have an A20 rod handy to measure?


C|

2ndGenGuy
10-06-2009, 09:31 AM
B20A/B20A5/H23 rods have the following specs:

141.732mm length Center to Center
51mm big end bore
22mm wristpin

B20A parts are definitely not compatible with A20A parts.

I was thinking maybe B20A3, which is sort of similar looking to a rear-leaning A20A3 with crappy stamped valve cover, single cam, dual carbs and all. Possible these guys got it confused somehow.

2drSE-i
10-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Well it says a20/B20, and the specs are right for the a20. Correct length and wristpin size. Not sure on the other specs. Those will definately not fit the b20.

JohnBoy
10-06-2009, 09:36 PM
ya i dont know the specs off hand but they are the company were i got my oil pump from and it looks like it will fit perfectly on the motor

cygnus x-1
10-07-2009, 03:18 PM
ya i dont know the specs off hand but they are the company were i got my oil pump from and it looks like it will fit perfectly on the motor


Toga definitely makes an oil pump for the A20. I have one, works fine.


The specs on those A20 rods look correct, but I'm only going from memory. I can't find a website for Toga Performance so no way to verify the information. It says they come with ARP bolts, which is a promising sign.

But the Eagles are cheaper and are know to work with B series pistons. And you will be needing forged pistons anyway so you might as well just go that route.

C|

JohnBoy
10-09-2009, 02:22 AM
how about pulley's i looked at indago's site don't show a A20 pulley's

Vanilla Sky
10-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Unorthodox made one. I think they halted production a long time ago. Every one since has been custom.

cygnus x-1
10-09-2009, 03:42 PM
how about pulley's i looked at indago's site don't show a A20 pulley's


Nothing is available off the shelf anymore. But really there isn't much to be gained here. Best thing would be to ditch the AC and power steering and cut the extra grooves off the pulley. That would save a little weight but the pulley diameter isn't big enough for there to be much reduction in inertia.

Better would be to find a larger alternator pulley to slow it down. Or if you're REALLY hard core you can remove the alternator completely and run off the battery. It is possible to do this but it's hard on the battery. You could get 30-60 minutes depending on how many other accessories are running.

An aluminum flywheel is much better for inertia reduction. Clutchnet.com sells them. Not cheap though.

C|

JohnBoy
11-08-2009, 01:31 PM
i've found a gates timing belt, but i was wondering if the stock would be better?

JohnBoy
11-08-2009, 01:35 PM
Yes we can make custom cranks with a 5 min.wE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CRANKS AND SEE IF YOU WANTED ANYTHING CHANGED ON THEM(STROKE)? AND THEY RUN FROM $1400-$1699.

As for the gasket we can make that up,you give us the bore and the thickness you want.

Sincerely,
Phil
Tech & Sales Dept.
IPP/Flatlander Racing
(603) 378-0090


and this is what i got for billet cranks.

Vanilla Sky
11-08-2009, 02:57 PM
I see no need for a stronger crank. Ours are forged as it is. We've had 350 dyno verified HP made using a stock crank, and one that was in the 10's in the 1/4 mile. See users Sean (funstick) and Johnny-o for those cars. Any more power and you really need to look at other motors because of our head design. It's really hard to overcome economy cast heads. You can get radical with porting, but I think we'll hit water jackets too soon with anything really wild.

With my challenge build, I'm looking to make about 200hp with a turbo and a stock long block. Pulling the head will cost too much, but I think I can gain about 20hp with a good port job.

JohnBoy
11-08-2009, 04:39 PM
ya i plan on a stage 3 head job, and intake port matching job done. I just dont what the stock crank to go after one month then have to buy one anyways

Stage 3
For Pro Street and Strip.

Open up Ports below the Valves - you will lose power down low but gain it up top.
Changes to Intake Port required. Headers a must, along with larger Throttle body!
More blending of Combustion Chambers to establish faster flow around Valves.
It is mandatory to bore the Block .020 or .040 to further unshroud the Valves.
Intake Ports and Exhaust Ports are opened up for more flow. These Heads work well w/naturally aspirated,
turbo-chargers and super-chargers (for normally aspirated engines, use from 12-13-1 comp).
These heads have an 80% Exhaust to Intake flow rate.

You'll get 85-90 Horse Power gain.
Price ...$980* (Price based on 4 cylinder heads. 6 cylinder available)
Call to order (603) 378-0090

Vanilla Sky
11-08-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm telling you, you're not going to bust a crank. You're also going to have trouble finding 4 other people that want a part that's not needed at all.

rjudgey
11-20-2009, 01:29 PM
I'd just have it crack tested to make sure it's good, then have it polished, shot peened, balanced and polished up if it needs it. Try not to grind it cause that will weaken it, you can have the oil holes radiused so they spread the oil better on the rods apart from that good to go. I've never broken one even with a rod with no bearing knocking away for hundred miles or so and even had two rods jam through the block after undoing themselves and stopped the crank dead still didn't break it!!

As far as head work is concerned they aren't restrictive, just need bigger valves and cams with more lift. Once the chambers have been worked on and the ports had a bit of work around the guides they are pretty good. You can get blank valves from SI valves and then have them machined to anysize you want. If you want to use stock seats then the inlets will go to 32mm and the exhaust will go upto 37mm, If you upgrade the seats on the inlet then you can go upto 33.5mm, I'd consider using 6.5mm stems on the exhaust valves as well worth a thought but not that critical. The intake valves from SI are a very nice shape and have that lovely swirl polish finish to help with mixing the fuel and air. As far as cams go Web cams do a reweld with a bit more lift but they have lots of duration maybe they could do a special one off with less duration and more lift ideal lift would be 11.5mm inlet and 12mm exhaust.

JohnBoy
11-24-2009, 09:01 PM
alright should i cyro treat it before hand or after then

AccordEpicenter
11-24-2009, 09:29 PM
no cryo treating needed

JohnBoy
11-24-2009, 09:31 PM
but wouldn't cyro strangthen it up for this build

MessyHonda
11-25-2009, 02:14 AM
just get some b18 rods they will bolt on and just have the machine shop machine your piston to a 20mm rod size

rjudgey
11-25-2009, 10:31 AM
I think you mean have the machine shop put a new bush and resize to 20mm on the rod, cause there's no way you can resize a piston wrist pin hole from 21mm to 20mm. Or just have custom pistons made with 21mm wrist pin hole, the smaller the lighter but not as strong. I've run 20mm wrist pins up to 200bhp without issues. To be honest the whole engine stock can take 7500-8000 rpm just need to re-torque the rod bolts to 25lbft and use loctite on the threads. They tend to work loose otherwise and make a mess when they do!! ouch!! The stock rods are very light and you'll be hard pressed to find anything nearly as light, i think there is a brand that specialize in lightweight rods Karillo and there is the option Of Eagle H bean Titanium's which would be uber nice but also nearly 3 times as much as the steel forged ones. But they would be much lighter than stock though!! Hmmmm think i may get some!!

JohnBoy
11-25-2009, 09:14 PM
ya h beam is what i was looking in to, but you say eagle is the brand to go with? i'm now going to shoot peen the crank but that is what i might cyro treat as well but i don't know if it would make in brittle if i do both?

Vanilla Sky
11-25-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't see a reason to cryo either. Everything is strong enough already. I plan on running 200-250 HP on a stock bottom end with boost.

JohnBoy
11-25-2009, 10:17 PM
I think you mean have the machine shop put a new bush and resize to 20mm on the rod, cause there's no way you can resize a piston wrist pin hole from 21mm to 20mm. Or just have custom pistons made with 21mm wrist pin hole, the smaller the lighter but not as strong. I've run 20mm wrist pins up to 200bhp without issues. To be honest the whole engine stock can take 7500-8000 rpm just need to re-torque the rod bolts to 25lbft and use loctite on the threads. They tend to work loose otherwise and make a mess when they do!! ouch!! The stock rods are very light and you'll be hard pressed to find anything nearly as light, i think there is a brand that specialize in lightweight rods Karillo and there is the option Of Eagle H bean Titanium's which would be uber nice but also nearly 3 times as much as the steel forged ones. But they would be much lighter than stock though!! Hmmmm think i may get some!!

ooo you just made my night they would be nice if i was in compition racing. there is know way i'm paying 1g on rods alone, lol. but they would be nice to have

rjudgey
11-26-2009, 03:55 AM
Stock rods are pretty good for the revs and power easily able to handle up to 200bhp reliably maybe more but for not so long. The Rod bolts are also very good quality easily as good as ARP. I had mine shot peened, polished and balanced and they come in very light compared to aftermarket but if you are turbocharging you need them to be a bit beefier if you are going to go above 250bhp. You could go with the lightweight Karillo's they should be good for upto 300-350bhp and still light otherwise Toga, or Eagle or Crower. If your going for really big numbers I'd recommend Crower their rods are awesome for turbo can't ever imagine those breaking i have a set for my B20A and they are just do nice!!

JohnBoy
11-26-2009, 04:22 PM
so what main and head studs would go on our cars?

Vanilla Sky
11-26-2009, 04:31 PM
The head studs you need are from a B6 Miata engine, IIRC.

JohnBoy
11-26-2009, 05:00 PM
so any need to cut them? and mains or that one is one no buddy has figured out yet

JohnBoy
11-26-2009, 05:16 PM
so b18 rods (non-vtec), custom pistons with 21mm pins and and a good c/r like 8.8-1, and stock bearings

89T
11-26-2009, 05:54 PM
the b18 a/b rods fit with no modification but the wrist pin is larger than the a20's.
that's why you will have to use custom pistons or 83mm b18 a/b pistons.

the only difference will be a extra valve relief and compression ratio may be slightly off.


The head studs you need are from a B6 Miata engine, IIRC.218-4703


so b18 rods (non-vtec), custom pistons with 21mm pins and and a good c/r like 8.8-1, and stock bearingssee first quote. there is a possibility you could order them without the 1 valve relief. you'll just have to make some calls.

JohnBoy
11-26-2009, 05:58 PM
sorry that was retarded of me i should have went back over everything, just kind jumping every were looking up shit that i for got to reread. off hand do you know the compression ratio

rjudgey
11-27-2009, 04:57 AM
Wouldn't worry about having the 4th cut out removed if he's going for low CR ratio for turbocharging.

Get B18 rods any good make lighter the better unless your going for silly boost and power. Custom pistons with 21mm wrist pin. SI valves for larger valves to increase flow through the head will make the turbo more efficient and also less chance of melting a valve, you can get blanks from SI and have them machined to any size you want. Bearings don't use oem you need ACL race series for this build only thing that will take lots of power and last a long time!! As for the mains bolts just reused the Honda ones I've never had one break even when the crank got jammed at 7.500 rpm when two rods came off. If it survived that in one piece I'm sure theyre good for whatever power you make!!

AccordEpicenter
11-27-2009, 06:56 AM
there is no point to lowering the cr in these engines for boost. 9.3:1 is just fine, itll run good out of boost, get better gas mileage and make more power in boost than the same engine with the cr reduced, going under the stock CR is a waste. Ive been using stock main bolts and using the ARP miata headstuds, and the headstuds are a perfect fit for these engines... As for the crank, the stock honda cranks are forged, nitrided and a few other things, pretty nice pieces, so you shouldnt need to spend alot of time and money on them, just make sure the journals are good, if the journals are bad, you should just get another crank instead of having it ground, as this will weaken and thin the journals.

halxi
11-29-2009, 07:42 PM
Call JE up for your pistons, here's their site http://www.jepistons.com/


Arias also does custom cut pistons. Much better quality piston IMO.

JohnBoy
12-01-2009, 10:33 PM
my list so far.

toga oil pump
golden eagle timing gear
eagle H-beam rods
spec stage 4 cluth kit
miata head bolts
new diy motor mounts
pholy shift mount
gates high performance timing belt
skunk2 short throw
drivelineshop custom axle's
T4 turbo .50 trim
vibrant t3/t4 flange
phantom grip 901
and up graded springs

what i still need

copper head gasket
intake mani
trottle body
fuel rail
fuel regulater
injectors
pistons
flywheel
crank work
head work
block work
bisi springs
(bisi intake gasket)
cam
waste gate
bov
intercooler
piping
obd1 conversion or stand alone
copper exhaust gasket
exhaust mani flange
valves

thats all i can really think of at the moment so looking for help in these departments

JohnBoy
12-01-2009, 11:07 PM
on intake mani's the victor x power band is 7g to 10g will are cars even come close to that? the performor x is 4500 to 8200

Nafs Asdf
12-01-2009, 11:52 PM
Wouldn't the power band be lower on a higher displacement engine? As the A20 would need more air than the B16 at the same RPMs.

I might be wrong tho, anyone with actual knowledge wanna confirm/deny?

Rendon LX-i
12-02-2009, 12:58 AM
You should read the article on Static vs. Effective Compression. That will give you an idea.

Think of it this way. A turbo is literally a compressor. And 1 atmosphere is literal compressive pressure. Natural aspiration builds the motor for a constant 1 atmosphere of pressure, and effective compression does not change, and the way air fuel ratios and heat work, there's an upper limit on compression. Forced induction builds the motor for a variable input of pressure, thus making the effective compression that much greater than the static compression which is at 1 atmosphere. Increases in boost, which is literal compression (just like an air compressor) will cause higher effective compression levels in the cylinders.

Basicly, too much compression or too much heat kills motors. And many factors go into both, including valve overlap and oil viscosity

Tdurr
12-02-2009, 10:59 AM
my list so far.

toga oil pump
golden eagle timing gear
eagle H-beam rods
spec stage 4 cluth kit
miata head bolts
new diy motor mounts
pholy shift mount
gates high performance timing belt
skunk2 short throw
drivelineshop custom axle's
T4 turbo .50 trim
vibrant t3/t4 flange
phantom grip 901
and up graded springs

what i still need

copper head gasket
intake mani
trottle body
fuel rail
fuel regulater
injectors
pistons
flywheel
crank work
head work
block work
bisi springs
(bisi intake gasket)
cam
waste gate
bov
intercooler
piping
obd1 conversion or stand alone
copper exhaust gasket
exhaust mani flange
valves

thats all i can really think of at the moment so looking for help in these departments


what kind of pistons are you looking to get? I plan on building a motor over the next year and your list is fucking nice. lol.

JohnBoy
12-02-2009, 08:25 PM
You should read the article on Static vs. Effective Compression. That will give you an idea.

Think of it this way. A turbo is literally a compressor. And 1 atmosphere is literal compressive pressure. Natural aspiration builds the motor for a constant 1 atmosphere of pressure, and effective compression does not change, and the way air fuel ratios and heat work, there's an upper limit on compression. Forced induction builds the motor for a variable input of pressure, thus making the effective compression that much greater than the static compression which is at 1 atmosphere. Increases in boost, which is literal compression (just like an air compressor) will cause higher effective compression levels in the cylinders.

Basicly, too much compression or too much heat kills motors. And many factors go into both, including valve overlap and oil viscosity

i couldn't have said it better bud

JohnBoy
12-02-2009, 08:27 PM
i've been thinking of je pistons but maybe eagle because thats what i have in my 383

Rendon LX-i
12-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Its true facts. Just gots to becarefull how you build this beast....No matter what youll have a monster man. ill go with Je John

JohnBoy
12-02-2009, 11:45 PM
i was thinking je because they look to be more on the import seen anyways

89T
12-03-2009, 04:22 AM
+1 for the JE's.. Never had any problems with mine.

JohnBoy
12-05-2009, 04:17 PM
any one know a good company of copper gasket?

JohnBoy
12-05-2009, 11:44 PM
Wouldn't the power band be lower on a higher displacement engine? As the A20 would need more air than the B16 at the same RPMs.

I might be wrong tho, anyone with actual knowledge wanna confirm/deny?

if this is right then i would want the victor x over the performer x right?

2drSE-i
12-05-2009, 11:56 PM
Im going to say no still. The performer X is going to be more in the usable power range of the a20. While its true that our motors will require more air because of the higher displacement, the Victor x is designed for 7k-10k, which is way higher than our motors can naturally make power. With your build, maybe, but with the money youll be dumping into your car, why not buy both and test them?

89T
12-06-2009, 09:07 AM
check this tech out. Descent reading...
http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/intakemani.pdf

AccordEpicenter
12-06-2009, 09:58 AM
i would get a different manifold than a victor x, cause then youll need to get creative with the dogbone mount because it wont fit with the victor x on an a20. I reccomend AEBS typhoon, flows alot, fits without modifying the dogbone mount, and its cheaper. The car will run better out of boost with the aebs manifold due to the longer runners than the victor x. I would also be hesitant to switch to a copper headgasket at this point, the stock honda one should be more than adequate for boost as long as you have headstuds. Ive seen guys around using copper headgaskets and have had sealing issues with them...

rjudgey
12-07-2009, 04:06 AM
Rods, I'd look at Crower if you a turbo charging and running big boost those things are so well made but then they are pricey, or possibly Karillo, the Eagles are good for the money but i wouldn't trust them with big boost applications.

AccordEpicenter
12-08-2009, 09:32 PM
crower rods are nice, but unless you plan on making more than like 600hp i wouldnt worry, eagles will be just fine. Im not really sure that carrillo would be any better than either of these. I beam rods are stronger than H beam rods in most cases, but usually the h beam rods weigh less. I personally use eagle H beams. I had a set of used crowers that i had problems with so i no longer have them

JohnBoy
12-09-2009, 12:29 AM
i went with the eagles because they were the closes to stock specs. the company that i'm getting the gasket from is www.flatoutgroup.com i like the idea of the coated copper gasket but it seems like something that is a oxymorron but i see what happens

JohnBoy
12-09-2009, 12:31 AM
but how about good vavles and seals?

Importordomestic
12-09-2009, 06:55 AM
Rods, I'd look at Crower if you a turbo charging and running big boost those things are so well made but then they are pricey, or possibly Karillo, the Eagles are good for the money but i wouldn't trust them with big boost applications.

I know that is your opinion about Eagles, But dont count them out of the game, they are affordable and very reliable. I have seen eagles take some HUGE amounts of boost 30+. On top of that I have never seen or known anyone that has seen an eagle fail in a honda 4cyl under normal operating conditions (like a rod failure due to lock of oil or spun bearing). For an A20 eagles will be all that you need. If somehow you can get the a20 to make 900 HP and rev to 10k at the same time you might see a eagle rod failure. I am not saying it is impossible to break a eagle rod just not probable for the hp easily atainable for an a20 on boost.

AccordEpicenter
12-09-2009, 03:53 PM
I know that is your opinion about Eagles, But dont count them out of the game, they are affordable and very reliable. I have seen eagles take some HUGE amounts of boost 30+. On top of that I have never seen or known anyone that has seen an eagle fail in a honda 4cyl under normal operating conditions (like a rod failure due to lock of oil or spun bearing). For an A20 eagles will be all that you need. If somehow you can get the a20 to make 900 HP and rev to 10k at the same time you might see a eagle rod failure. I am not saying it is impossible to break a eagle rod just not probable for the hp easily atainable for an a20 on boost.

exactly what i was thinking. Ive heard of failures at high hp levels but they arent as expensive or as heavy as say, crower I beams or pauter x beam rods, but for the right application they are just fine imo

89T
12-09-2009, 07:53 PM
I like mine, and have spare set... I have had a bearing fail due to improper torque. I trust no machine shop now..lol!

Rendon LX-i
12-09-2009, 08:16 PM
make me a deal on the Set LOL

rjudgey
12-10-2009, 02:23 AM
Cool well if everyone has been using them and no bad reports go for it, i only know of one person who used them and had a failure, may have been a one off or badly fitted who know, didn't realize so many people had been using them since!! May get some for me too now!!

Oldblueaccord
12-10-2009, 06:26 AM
I know that is your opinion about Eagles, But dont count them out of the game, they are affordable and very reliable. I have seen eagles take some HUGE amounts of boost 30+. On top of that I have never seen or known anyone that has seen an eagle fail in a honda 4cyl under normal operating conditions (like a rod failure due to lock of oil or spun bearing). For an A20 eagles will be all that you need. If somehow you can get the a20 to make 900 HP and rev to 10k at the same time you might see a eagle rod failure. I am not saying it is impossible to break a eagle rod just not probable for the hp easily atainable for an a20 on boost.


Pretty sure one of the mags like Hot Rod had an eagle fail. It shattered. there chinese forged. Couple companies here get then in raw and then finish machine them in house. The are cheap that all I can say about them.


wp

MessyHonda
12-10-2009, 07:07 PM
for building an A just stick with eagle...cheap and strong....its all in the building and balancing...no A will make alot of power unless its turbo....shit my A has stock rods with ARP bolts and it made 165 whp

2drSE-i
12-10-2009, 09:20 PM
for building an A just stick with eagle...cheap and strong....its all in the building and balancing...no A will make alot of power unless its turbo....shit my A has stock rods with ARP bolts and it made 165 whp

Oh dear one day I'll have money and prove you wrong.

MessyHonda
12-10-2009, 10:54 PM
Oh dear one day I'll have money and prove you wrong.

i hate being broke...haha...im just happy with my lil moded coupe....mike and daryl...did a good job....i learned my lesson...no more loud exhuast...

2drSE-i
12-11-2009, 09:22 AM
personally i think 160 whp is great. thats about what b16\18s make at the wheels, but your makin it with 4 fewer valves and one cam

MessyHonda
12-12-2009, 07:37 PM
personally i think 160 whp is great. thats about what b16\18s make at the wheels, but your makin it with 4 fewer valves and one cam

yeah and i dont have to rev to 8k....i think its just overated....the b16 only makes 160 crank and the b18 ls onlly made 140 hp....so i can prob keep up with a GSR...but like i said rods would help if you want to have a rev happy engine...i dont like to rev it pass 6k because im not tuned yet

2drSE-i
12-12-2009, 08:03 PM
I'm thinking an A series that can flow up to 8k (and hold that high too) would be a badass build. Just think, a mildly modded (according to the owner of a dyno graph i just looked at) b18c5 makes 135hp at 6500, which is a few hundred over our stock redline. A mildly modded (again, same dyno) k20 at our stock redline only made 180 (ok, still a bunch, but you see my point)

JohnBoy
12-13-2009, 10:33 PM
with or cars has anyone tryed a crank fire ign. or a dry sump?

Nafs Asdf
12-13-2009, 10:36 PM
with or cars has anyone tryed a crank fire ign. or a dry sump?

2ndgenguy has got a crank fired ignition project going on with his 1g I think.

AccordEpicenter
12-14-2009, 11:03 AM
i think chris (bobafett) has his electromotive system setup running crank trigger. This is the most accurate and best way to go timing wise, and in most cases, is also the most expensive. Im running an obd1 accord dizzy with the adapter kit with a chipped P06 ecu. Probably the best setup for the money and easiest to implement on these cars when going for a serious build, NA or Boost.

cygnus x-1
12-14-2009, 11:44 AM
with or cars has anyone tryed a crank fire ign. or a dry sump?


I have a crank fired ignition using a retrofitted Ford EDIS system. Very simple and reliable system, with NO CRAPPY DISTRIBUTOR! (I hate distributors) You need an ECU to control it though, either a Megasquirt for full fuel and ignition control or a Megajolt Lite Jr. for just ignition.

A dry sump would be very cool but would have to be totally custom designed and built. Would be easier to just make the existing pan a little deeper and baffle it.


C|

2ndGenGuy
12-14-2009, 12:25 PM
I have a crank fired ignition using a retrofitted Ford EDIS system. Very simple and reliable system, with NO CRAPPY DISTRIBUTOR! (I hate distributors)

+1 distributors do suck. And the MegaJolt Lite Jr system can be done relatively cheaply. If you're a brave, soldering soul, then under $100 for the MegaJolt controller. $180 for it fully assembled. Then the EDIS parts can all be purchased for about $70-80 on eBay or you can pull it from the junkyard yourself for probably less.

JohnBoy
12-15-2009, 11:49 PM
I have a crank fired ignition using a retrofitted Ford EDIS system. Very simple and reliable system, with NO CRAPPY DISTRIBUTOR! (I hate distributors) You need an ECU to control it though, either a Megasquirt for full fuel and ignition control or a Megajolt Lite Jr. for just ignition.

A dry sump would be very cool but would have to be totally custom designed and built. Would be easier to just make the existing pan a little deeper and baffle it.


C|

Megasquirt is the ecu that you pretty much have to build your self right?

AccordEpicenter
12-16-2009, 11:29 AM
Megasquirt is the ecu that you pretty much have to build your self right?

yes

cygnus x-1
12-16-2009, 01:52 PM
Megasquirt is the ecu that you pretty much have to build your self right?


You can get the ECU pre-assembled or as a kit. The kit is obviously cheaper. It has a built in MAP sensor and uses your existing throttle position, intake air temp, and coolant temp sensors. It also works with many different types of factory ignitions, with or without distributor. It can also work with ITBs and MAF sensors instead of MAP.


C|

JohnBoy
12-16-2009, 11:56 PM
so what would be a better MAP sen. a 4 bar of a cb7?

cygnus x-1
12-17-2009, 08:59 AM
so what would be a better MAP sen. a 4 bar of a cb7?


Better than the stock Accord sensor? Well I guess any sensor that will handle the level of boost you plan on running. The Megasquirt's built in sensor is good for up to 2.5bar I think. There is also an upgrade to a 4 bar sensor.

C|

JohnBoy
12-17-2009, 10:52 PM
so there is a up grade in the megasquirt for a 4 bar? i plan around 14 psi. and we'll see were we can go from there

AccordEpicenter
12-18-2009, 12:35 PM
3 bar gm sensors are easiest to get

Rendon LX-i
12-18-2009, 12:38 PM
^ going to say the same. Im getting me one of those here in a bit

cygnus x-1
12-18-2009, 06:21 PM
so there is a up grade in the megasquirt for a 4 bar? i plan around 14 psi. and we'll see were we can go from there

A 2.5bar sensor would get you to 21PSI. I guess if you think you might exceed that then go for the 4 bar. A 4bar would get you to 43PSI. :nervous:

Are you thinking about going with a Megasquirt?



3 bar gm sensors are easiest to get

Which vehicles are those found on?


C|

JohnBoy
12-18-2009, 08:22 PM
well it seems like the way to go with this build. 21 psi would probably be the max that i would go. 43 is out rages in less your a diesel. i just need to research more on it but thats were my dad can help me. so is it easy programable?

2drSE-i
12-18-2009, 08:50 PM
43 is out rages
Sorry for the threadjack, but i thought this was halarious.
LOL i know I'm the resident spelling asshole, but i couldnt get over this one

Outrageous. Still, for 14 psi (which is what your aiming for) i think the cheapo 3bar gm sensor will be fine.

JohnBoy
12-18-2009, 10:19 PM
spelling and reading are not my strong points, LOL. i'm a kintick learner. no 14 is probably my low point

2drSE-i
12-19-2009, 10:00 AM
I'm thinking up to 25 psi a 3bar would be ok.

cygnus x-1
12-20-2009, 10:36 AM
well it seems like the way to go with this build. 21 psi would probably be the max that i would go. 43 is out rages in less your a diesel. i just need to research more on it but thats were my dad can help me. so is it easy programable?


I haven't programmed any other types of ECUs, but I doubt it's any more difficult than any other ECU once you learn the system. The learning curve is mostly in understanding all the parts and putting the system together. I think this is what scares people about DIY types of systems. Once its installed and you figure out how to configure it for your setup it's easy. The tuning software is extremely powerful and you can literally tune while you're driving. It's easier if you have a second person with you to push buttons but I always do it myself. Actually the best way to tune is to start the data logger and go drive around. Then stop in a parking lot and analyze the log and make your changes. Then start the logger again and drive around some more. Repeat until you're satisfied with the results.

Or if you have the money to spend it's even faster to do the same thing on a brake dyno. Then you can tune the ignition timing for best power.

Oh, and the software is all free. :flash:

http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/


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JohnBoy
12-23-2009, 11:42 PM
i was looking at the megasquirt site and half of the shit is mind boggling. so i have to do some more reading on it i"ve never played with a ecu so this is a new step for me. (thats why i like small blocks lol) other then push rods and manual fuel pumps. but for a exhaust flange i'll make one this weekend. i'll have pics

Tdurr
12-25-2009, 03:24 PM
i was looking at the megasquirt site and half of the shit is mind boggling. so i have to do some more reading on it i"ve never played with a ecu so this is a new step for me. (thats why i like small blocks lol) other then push rods and manual fuel pumps. but for a exhaust flange i'll make one this weekend. i'll have pics

it really is mad confusing, but if you figure it out you can make sooo much money by tuning other ppl's cars.

cygnus x-1
12-25-2009, 10:38 PM
i was looking at the megasquirt site and half of the shit is mind boggling. so i have to do some more reading on it i"ve never played with a ecu so this is a new step for me. (thats why i like small blocks lol) other then push rods and manual fuel pumps. but for a exhaust flange i'll make one this weekend. i'll have pics


If you have never messed with fuel injection before then half of the learning curve is just figuring that out. But that will be the same regardless of the engine type or ECU. Fuel injection works exactly the same on a SBC as it does on an old Honda. Use sensors to measure the amount of air going into the engine, calculate fuel required and inject it by switching the injectors on and off, measure the result with an oxygen sensor and adjust as required (O2 sensing is optional actually, but makes tuning WAY easier). Fueling is really fairly easy. Ignition control is where it gets harder.

But I'll tell you what, if you truly want an education in fuel injection and just general engine management, try setting up a Megasquirt. I guarantee that if you follow through and get it running you will learn far more from it than you will from any typical EFI class. And when you get it fired up and running for the first time, the sense of accomplishment is pretty awesome too.


C|

JohnBoy
12-29-2009, 02:03 AM
If you have never messed with fuel injection before then half of the learning curve is just figuring that out. But that will be the same regardless of the engine type or ECU. Fuel injection works exactly the same on a SBC as it does on an old Honda. Use sensors to measure the amount of air going into the engine, calculate fuel required and inject it by switching the injectors on and off, measure the result with an oxygen sensor and adjust as required (O2 sensing is optional actually, but makes tuning WAY easier). Fueling is really fairly easy. Ignition control is where it gets harder.

But I'll tell you what, if you truly want an education in fuel injection and just general engine management, try setting up a Megasquirt. I guarantee that if you follow through and get it running you will learn far more from it than you will from any typical EFI class. And when you get it fired up and running for the first time, the sense of accomplishment is pretty awesome too.


C|

ya this is kind of the reason that i want to do the squirt. a good learning curve and to accomplishment of it. i mean you really don't learn any thing if everyone dose the work and all you do is throw out the cash. then you didn't really build it you just bolted shit on and magic your a machanic! lol, "ya, nice your a real tuner because you have a borla exhaust" LOL. but really i would just like to have one of the most wicked accords in the NW.