Performance in uncharted territory

[bakedboarder34]

Okay guys and gal gurus', I have officially committed my 1987 4dr accord lx to a full time rally/offroad vehicle. Im going to be a gangster and keep the 2.0 carbd no-Tec Sohc. lol with some twists okay. i need some help with the actual build. im lookin for 150+ Ft lbs all motor power. its going to be tuned for heavy torque so i can climb rediculous hills using my ultra light chassis and incredibly tuned FWD engine/tranny package. heres the build

Engine specs

Bumped compression to 10.5:1
via pistons (i will also be doin connecting internals naturally for reliability)
-Prelude head milled and Beefed the Eff out(springs retainers seats addressed,ect.)
-272 cam
-32/36 Weber (yeah keepin it that way. love that shit!)
-integra Gear/LSD swap (all 5 gears, i hate a no torque 5th gear after my ep3 =D and final brand new syncros full synthetic oil ect.)
-15"s with ultra wide ultra high perf. Fatty tread tires. not huge but wide. i dont wanna blow all my torque in my tire size. im not an idiot when it comes to that.. im anal lol
3"+ Adjustable suspension lift. (coilovers or something. some bits i need help with)

i also plan on setting up a carb protection system fed by a snorkle so i can go rediculous on it. im not joking. the carb is there cams are cheap and i got deals on internals and work so its going to be a 1 yr project i just want to make sure im going in the right direction and you guys really do know your shit.

[cygnus x-1]

150lbs-ft is going to be difficult without a turbo. The openloop car didn't quite hit 150lb-ft and it had all of what you're talking about plus fuel injection. But, you should be able to get close to that. Honestly for a rally car I would focus more on ruggedness and reliability more than engine power.

For low end torque I think you might be better off with a Colt triflow cam or maybe one of the Web cams. The 272 might be a little hot for what you're trying to do.

http://coltcams.com/
http://www.webcamshafts.com/


Next, you can't use a Prelude head with a downdraft carb like a Weber 32/36 or 38/38. There are only two intake manifolds in the known universe that fit the 1.8L Prelude heads, one is the OEM manifold, and the other is made by Rowland in South Africa. The OEM manifold (obviously) uses the stock twin side draft carbs that are small and a pain to work with. The Rowland intake uses dual Weber DCOE carbs, which are great but require some specialized experience to tune. And they wouldn't be so great for an off-road type of application. So I would recommend you stick with the A20 head and just have it worked over.

For carbs, if you really want to use a carb get a Weber 38/38. It flows more than a 32/36 and you're going to need it with a worked over head and higher compression. It's also a little easier to tune. The issue with this carb in an off-road application though is the design of the float bowl. The top is open and they have a tendency to overflow into the throats at more extreme angles or under hard turns. There are modifications to correct this so if you google around you can probably find them. There is (was) also a guy that fits these onto Suzuki Samurais and seems to have good luck with modifying them for off-road use. He goes by the name of Sarge and is actually quoted in the Weber sticky here. He had a website at one time but I can't find it right now. If you're really interested I can try finding some contact information for him.


Now, what I would really recommend for a rally car is to not use a carb at all. In fact I would be very tempted to try a propane conversion. Propane systems are simple and work very well with gasoline engines. They burn cleaner, don't have cold start problems, the tanks are safer (far more difficult to puncture), they work even with the engine upside down, and don't need a fuel pump. Seriously, look into it.

http://www.gotpropane.com/


Also, for maximum power you should consider a fully electronic tuneable ignition system, like a Megajolt + EDIS setup. With a worked over engine the stock distributor will not be optimal and is all but impossible to tune. I can help you with this when you get to that point.


C|



Okay guys and gal gurus', I have officially committed my 1987 4dr accord lx to a full time rally/offroad vehicle. Im going to be a gangster and keep the 2.0 carbd no-Tec Sohc. lol with some twists okay. i need some help with the actual build. im lookin for 150+ Ft lbs all motor power. its going to be tuned for heavy torque so i can climb rediculous hills using my ultra light chassis and incredibly tuned FWD engine/tranny package. heres the build

Engine specs

Bumped compression to 10.5:1
via pistons (i will also be doin connecting internals naturally for reliability)
-Prelude head milled and Beefed the Eff out(springs retainers seats addressed,ect.)
-272 cam
-32/36 Weber (yeah keepin it that way. love that shit!)
-integra Gear/LSD swap (all 5 gears, i hate a no torque 5th gear after my ep3 =D and final brand new syncros full synthetic oil ect.)
-15"s with ultra wide ultra high perf. Fatty tread tires. not huge but wide. i dont wanna blow all my torque in my tire size. im not an idiot when it comes to that.. im anal lol
3"+ Adjustable suspension lift. (coilovers or something. some bits i need help with)

i also plan on setting up a carb protection system fed by a snorkle so i can go rediculous on it. im not joking. the carb is there cams are cheap and i got deals on internals and work so its going to be a 1 yr project i just want to make sure im going in the right direction and you guys really do know your shit.

[87roach]

Look up rjudgey's posts/threads, he's your man for this project and has posted much knowledge over the years.

[JohnBoy]

you have two options with full bady coilovers D2 or Ksport both are the same company but anything else is from another car like a 4g or civic

[scars_of_carma]

I had an SCCA pro rally RX3 with weber DCOE 48's... I raced it for a season then decided rally-x was lame. Any sport where you get points lost cause the rooster tails from your spinning tires knocks over cones isn't worth doing.

HOWEVER, in a FWD that wouldn't be the case... small FWD's do much better then small rwd's. My lap times in my pro rally car were beaten consistently by a stock geo metro... much to my chagrin.

[2oodoor]

definatley use a 38 over the 32/36, it is an amazing difference between the two. If you get that gear ratio right you won't need to have quite 150 torque to move a car set up like that IMO.

[lostforawhile]

you aren't in uncharted territory , a lot of people on here have raced these cars ,and there is a lot of knowledge on this board. here's a video you'll enjoy. turn it up first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1hzbEPuA7k

[2ndGenGuy]

The 38 or 32/36 kinda sucks for any kind of racing. The problem being that under heavy cornering, the fuel sloshes to the side in the float bowl and starves the main jets. Really pissed me off when autocrossing. If you could mount the carb sideways on the manifold, it would probably be fine, but then I would assume you'd get some serious uneven fueling between the cylinders unless you built the manifold so that the two barrels kinda funneled down to one common point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Ai_fXZT9s <-- See this video and listen to the engine in the right handers. Sweet eh?

Maybe rally / offroad racing, you can't pull the kind of G-forces necessary to starve the floats, but it would happen to me on the streets so it would be interesting to find out. And with the availability of Weber DCOE manifolds now, there's no reason not to go to them. It would definitely make it a lot easier to reach a 150lb-ft goal, which is only 25lb-ft more than stock, doesn't really sound all that unreasonable.

EDIT: ....aaaaand this thread is sorta old isn't it?

[2oodoor]

there are ways to manage the right turn thing but it is a good point of concern

[lostforawhile]

there are ways to manage the right turn thing but it is a good point of concern

yep as much info and data that is out there on webbers i'm sure there is a simple solution, people have been doing serious racing with them for years.

[2ndGenGuy]

yep as much info and data that is out there on webbers i'm sure there is a simple solution, people have been doing serious racing with them for years.

Maybe with longitudinal mounted engines, since the carb sits sideways in the engine bay, it's not a problem. Otherwise, I have never seen a solution... I've been searching for years and anybody who actually autocrosses with them has the same issues. I've tried raising the float level and short of modifying physics, there's not much else you can do to keep fuel from moving around so much...

Honestly, I just don't think they were designed for all out performance on transversely-mounted engines. I think they figured most people who wanted to race were going to use IDF/IDA/DCOE, etc.

[stat1K]

isn't this one of the reasons fuel injection was invented, i know some people are dead set against it but the fact is if you're injecting fuel there's no need to even think about any of these things. obviously you all know this, i just figured i'd point it out.

also i'd like to point out if he's talking 150ft-lbs at the wheels which i assume since that's what most people speak of, that's WAY more than 25ft lbs more than stock.

[2ndGenGuy]

I don't see where he said "at the wheels" anywhere in his post. I know how drivetrain loss works, and basic addition and subtraction. But thanks for pointing that out. :)

Also, on the topic of fuel injection: :blah:

[2oodoor]

:blah: where did OP go?

[jg09]

I'm sure I'm gonna get tons of hate-PMs for saying this, but I see no point in trying to get much performance out of a carb'd Accord motor. I mean, they make what, 100 hp? For the amount of money that you'd spend to get up to 150 horse, why not just sell your current ride, amd buy a fuel injected coupe. the fuel injected Accord motors make 125 horse, right? gaining 25 hp and not worrying about fuel starvation from leaning/g-forces sounds a lot better than trying to get 50 hp and possibly never having a motor that runs just the way you want it. Plus, the coupe would probably be a bit easier to rally compared to the sedan because of the smaller size.

Just my $0.02

[lostforawhile]

I'm sure I'm gonna get tons of hate-PMs for saying this, but I see no point in trying to get much performance out of a carb'd Accord motor. I mean, they make what, 100 hp? For the amount of money that you'd spend to get up to 150 horse, why not just sell your current ride, buy and buy a fuel injected coupe. the fuel injected Accord motors make 125 horse, right? gaining 25 hp and not worrying about fuel starvation from leaning/g-forces sounds a lot better than trying to get 50 hp and possibly never having a motor that runs just the way you want it. Plus, the coupe would probably be a bit easier to rally compared to the sedan because of the smaller size.

Just my $0.02the carbed cars only get that much horsepower because of the crap carb that comes stock. it's not hard to match or exceed the fuel injected cars horsepower if you know about carbs. I mean this is a two litre motor , people have been getting a lot of horsepower out of motors this size way before the accord came out, and a lot of them breathed a lot worse then this car did. My project would already be done and running if the entire country didn't take a giant collective crap.

[stat1K]

I don't see where he said "at the wheels" anywhere in his post. I know how drivetrain loss works, and basic addition and subtraction. But thanks for pointing that out. :)

Also, on the topic of fuel injection: :blah:

so you think 150ft lbs at the flywheel is going to do well in an offroad application? i'm sorry i just assumed the OP wasn't a moron, i shouldn't have done that i guess...

and on the topic of none of this will ever happen: :birthday:

[lostforawhile]

you could do four bike carbs, take a factory manifold, cut off the tubes and leave the flange, just weld four runners straight off of the manifold flange, cut at the correct angle of course, and flanges for the carbs at the other end. I see sets of four bike carbs and linkages on egay all the time. It's been done here before, several people have run them. I would have done this but I really want to get the SU setup running, since i've never seen a set on a honda before..

[jg09]

For the record, when I get my Explorer going, I'm gonna rally the shit out of my LX-i, but I'm not gonna try and be competitive or anything. If all you're trying to do is have fun, stock will get you there.

[2ndGenGuy]

so you think 150ft lbs at the flywheel is going to do well in an offroad application? i'm sorry i just assumed the OP wasn't a moron, i shouldn't have done that i guess...

and on the topic of none of this will ever happen: :birthday:

150lb-ft at the crank seems like a lot more realistic goal than at the wheels, so that's what I assumed. And why do you think with it's insufficient? I've seen way slower cars do rallycross and local rallies. MR2s, old Subies, RX7s, Hondas, etc... I mean we're not talking WRC here.

[stat1K]

I don't think an accord with only 25ft lbs more than stock would do well, it just seems like a power to weight thing. and stop editing your posts...

[Vanilla Sky]

I've NEVER had a problem with a lightly modded LXi hatch on deeply rutted logging roads. We would fly by lifted trucks that were stuck. It's more about how you handle the car than the amount of power you have.

You're going to want a strong clutch, and if possible, a swap to fuel injection. You want to be able to compensate for altitude changes without having to open your hood. If you're doing hillclimbs, this IS an issue.

Outside of some skidplates and some longer springs, I think you're just going to need to make things durable.

[2ndGenGuy]

LOL stop editing? It's not like I didn't edit it over an hour before you made your post. I always edit my posts to re-organize my horribly organized thoughts, bad grammar, and spelling. Otherwise they just look plain retarded. Edited this one too. :tongue:

[2oodoor]

:birthday::naughty:
he wont be pulling pikes peak I dont imagine, so pulling over to change jets is not on the agenda.
I used to pull jagagi- normus hills in my CJ7 WITH A CRAPPY rochester carb and never had an issue, (just dont let it bog or your going for a tumble, lol I did have to back her down once strieght) Of course electronic fuel injection is a good thing but I still dont think it is the same as a good carb when you want a lot of grunt quickley and maximized benefit of a performance cam.

[jg09]

:birthday::naughty:
he wont be pulling pikes peak I dont imagine, so pulling over to change jets is not on the agenda.
I used to pull jagagi- normus hills in my CJ7 WITH A CRAPPY rochester carb and never had an issue, (just dont let it bog or your going for a tumble, lol I did have to back her down once strieght) Of course electronic fuel injection is a good thing but I still dont think it is the same as a good carb when you want a lot of grunt quickley and maximized benefit of a performance cam.

that's where laptop tuneable EFI comes in! :D

[Vanilla Sky]

In this case, the bone stock PGM-FI system would work just fine.

[MessyHonda]

150lb-ft at the crank seems like a lot more realistic goal than at the wheels, so that's what I assumed. And why do you think with it's insufficient? I've seen way slower cars do rallycross and local rallies. MR2s, old Subies, RX7s, Hondas, etc... I mean we're not talking WRC here.
even a NA motor did not make that much power....mike dyno the coupe at 136 torque.

I don't think an accord with only 25ft lbs more than stock would do well, it just seems like a power to weight thing. and stop editing your posts...

i think the only thing that helps out alot is the short gears...i love how the thing revs here is a lil autocross vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8sU_i4D9co

[mykwikcoupe]

nice video jesse is that all you or some of the openloop boys? Very nice indeed.

[smufguy]

Getting 150ft-lbs on a 2.0L is not that hard. As advertised, the 1st gen S2000 (F20CXX I Believe) made around 150Ftlbs - but at an insance 7000 Rpm.

With that said, it all boils down to the efficiency of the motor. The A20 is an economy motor, designed to handle its designed duties. Not spin to 9000 rpm to make 200hp+. Valve Geometry, head flow, engine efficiency and tune-ability all play a vital role in extracting the highest HP possible and you are not going to get that from the A20 and with a Carb in place.

If you want to be practical and realistic and still hell bent on getting your 150 ft-lbs, either convert to fuel injection with forced induction or just get a motor swap.

[resendez]

alright so i have an 88 accord lxi wat are my chances with a turbo

[itzdave]

alright so i have an 88 accord lxi wat are my chances with a turbo

it takes a bunch of work.
USE THE SEARCH BUTTON...

[labeledsk8r]

I'm sure I'm gonna get tons of hate-PMs for saying this, but I see no point in trying to get much performance out of a carb'd Accord motor. I mean, they make what, 100 hp? For the amount of money that you'd spend to get up to 150 horse, why not just sell your current ride, amd buy a fuel injected coupe. the fuel injected Accord motors make 125 horse, right? gaining 25 hp and not worrying about fuel starvation from leaning/g-forces sounds a lot better than trying to get 50 hp and possibly never having a motor that runs just the way you want it. Plus, the coupe would probably be a bit easier to rally compared to the sedan because of the smaller size.

Just my $0.02

ima have to sorta disagree with this... its very easy to get around the same power with just junkyard parts, exhaust many from a lx-i, cam shaft from lx-i and a good cleaned stock tuned carbed will give you almost similar results. i know for a fact my lightly modded LX was much peppyer then my lx-i was but the lx-i was stock. i do agree that IF you want FI just sell your car and buy one, the amount of work for the swap seems pointless and can get costly quick, then again if you find a cheep parts car and your bored, why not lol


I've NEVER had a problem with a lightly modded LXi hatch on deeply rutted logging roads. We would fly by lifted trucks that were stuck. It's more about how you handle the car than the amount of power you have.

You're going to want a strong clutch, and if possible, a swap to fuel injection. You want to be able to compensate for altitude changes without having to open your hood. If you're doing hillclimbs, this IS an issue.

Outside of some skidplates and some longer springs, I think you're just going to need to make things durable.

i agree, i learned alot about driveing and car movements from offroading my 3g , used to do 30-50 in sugar sand back roads with friends, we learned alot about car control. i had only gotten my car bogged out once but i framed out and spun the tires for a bit wich framed me worse lol wich wouldnt have happend if i had stiffer springs and some weight reduction, also used to eat tires like a bitch and my alignment would get thrown out of wack from slideing in sand.

if i were to ever buy a car stricktly for raceing id get another 3g just FOR rally, also had thought the car handled it greatly and its fun as hell