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scars_of_carma
11-20-2009, 06:52 PM
I think its wise to think about what your purpose and pace is going to be before you go out for a drive. A fun-run is not the same as practice, testing or touge-time-attack.

Fun Run
Fun-runs are what touge is all about. They are supposed to be enjoyable and exciting. That does not mean you should be full-throttle and white-knuckled holding your breath around every turn. The touge is all about 7/10th's driving. If 7/10th's is not fun anymore see below and practice. Then try again.

Practice
If you are going out for practice decide what you want to learn and focus on one thing at a time. That's the same thing I tell driving students at the racetrack... You take the biggest risk when you decide to drive as fast as possible just to find out what might happen... Start at 7/10th's and very carefully push the limit of 7/10th's until you feel challenged but not overwhelmed. Stay there until it ceases to become a challenge. Then pat yourself on the back because your 7/10th's limit has been increased. 7/10th's should now be good enough for fun-runs again.

Testing
When going out for testing don't assume any changes you make are for the better until you test them safely first. In other words don't immediately drive at a pace that will put yourself in a bad situation if there's something wrong with an untested setup. If you feel safe enough to go for a fun run after that go ahead. However If your changes actually do make your car faster don't increase your 7/10th's limit yet and do not immediately attempt a time-attack. Stop. Pat yourself on the back and start practicing again. Go for fun-runs later and when you are really comfortable with the new setup maybe go for a time-attack.

Touge Time Attack
A touge time-attack isn't against the spirit of the sport if you take it very seriously. That means...

- Do not attempt a time attack unless you are supremely confident in your cars performance and safety. Ideally your 10/10th's should be significantly less then your cars 10/10th's.

- Do not attempt a time attack on a course that overwhelms your car. It's not worth your life to prove your Hachi can achieve the same pace as an FD if you have to drive it like Takumi...

- Scout the course first. Then go for a practice run. Then try a fun run. Yes that means you should drive the course 3 times before you attempt a time attack just to be sure you're ready and willing.

- You should do your time-attack run solo with minimal distractions.

- Have a safety car follow you at a safe distance. (That means a car with 4 seats occupied by 2 people who are capable of pulling you out of a burning vehicle and carrying you to safety)

- The reason for the time attack is to prove to yourself that you have mastered a course by achieving your best pace. NOT to prove that you achieved the best pace humanly possible. If you want to prove that go to a racetrack to get your speed fix.

- Time your run somehow. You do not want to have to do this again to quantify what your best pace is. If you do it again later on it's because you want to try it in a different vehicle or becuase you think you can do much better. The only way you can prove that is knowing exactly how fast you are in the present.

- Have your priorities in order. If you aren't willing to crash go to a racetrack for time attack.

7/10th's

99% of the time I drive alone so I admit I haven't followed most of ^ these rules. 7/10th's driving is done mostly because you don't want to put others in danger. However the question I end up asking myself after a while is am I really increasing my 7/10th's or am I just comfortable driving at 8/10th's more often?

When you drive the touge every single day you get bored and complacent with 7/10th's quickly. I even worry that 7/10ths on my home course is too fast and I will have to stop practicing here altogether or end up with a deer in my windshield...

That being said, I think a good rule of thumb is when 7/10th's becomes felony-speeding/wreckless driving you need to start over somewhere else. However when 7/10th's in general becomes wreckless what are you supposed to do?

I am starting to think that the 7/10ths rule is only wise for beginners... I might have to start thinking of practice sessions like time attack and I might have to avoid time attack altogether unless I ignore my own rules of safety.

Honestly I worry about all of us. It doesn't matter if you're really good or you're just trying to be really good the risks we end up taking for a thrill are just crazy...

Civic Accord Honda
11-20-2009, 07:00 PM
I must read this when i have a chance looks like a very good read tho!

Importordomestic
11-20-2009, 08:30 PM
Man i love your threads. I quit running my home town touge because of safety for myself and everyone else. As i became more confient with the car and my abilities I quickly was running 100+ in a 25mph zone. I started to run the course so close to mine and the cars limits, i was counting on a certain amount of understeer to navigate the next turn. at this point i almost hit a truck because i couldnt get the car in my lane fast emough. I run that course every now and then but nothing like i used to. I am satisfied with the fact that i have found my limit and can not do any better until i learn something new, which is why i run at the track these days.

scars_of_carma
11-21-2009, 05:20 AM
I quit running my home town touge because of safety for myself and everyone else. ...I am satisfied with the fact that i have found my limit and can not do any better until i learn something new, which is why i run at the track these days.

I think my issue is I'm always trying to improve the performance of my car which means my pace innevitably gets faster.

It doesn't take long for me to realize that I can't do any better with a particular setup especially when I've had faster cars with better setups in the past.

My roommate has been working on a TII FC and an R1 FD in my garage for weeks so lately I haven't been able to do anything but basic repairs and maintenance on my hatch. It's funny how quickly I get bored with a particular setup and I'm already antsy to make more changes.

I think I've realized that I justify increasing the performance of my car because its "safer" when honestly I just want to be able to look forward to going faster lol.

...btw I'm really digging the black-on-black look of that hatch in your avatar. :)

Tdurr
11-21-2009, 11:03 AM
I think my issue is I'm always trying to improve the performance of my car which means my pace innevitably gets faster.

It doesn't take long for me to realize that I can't do any better with a particular setup especially when I've had faster cars with better setups in the past.

My roommate has been working on a TII FC win!and an R1 FD in my garage for weeks so lately I haven't been able to do anything but basic repairs and maintenance on my hatch. It's funny how quickly I get bored with a particular setup and I'm already antsy to make more changes.

I think I've realized that I justify increasing the performance of my car because its "safer" when honestly I just want to be able to look forward to going faster lol.

...btw I'm really digging the black-on-black look of that hatch in your avatar. :)
x2.


very good read. i dont really have any touge spots around here... sucks. but if i did im sure the FC would be totaled by now lol. i need to pick up some of those driving books ppl are always talking bout..

scars_of_carma
11-21-2009, 11:40 AM
x2.

very good read. i dont really have any touge spots around here... sucks. but if i did im sure the FC would be totaled by now lol. i need to pick up some of those driving books ppl are always talking bout..

It's really not necessary... If you put into practice everything I've talked about in my last 3 threads... braking, weight-transfer and the pace of touge you will be fine. Those are the essential basics as I've learned them.

I think the difference between me and most touge drivers is I started at rock bottom. When I think back on my early days of practice runs it really makes me laugh. I was so slow and I didn't know anything.

I almost died in a crash on the touge as soon as I got my license because I was doing fun runs first instead of practice runs. Thus when I started doing practice runs years later it really kept me humble and focused on learning at my own pace.

Also I've always ran alone so I don't have the urge to show off or impress anyone which also keeps me focused on my driving and no one elses. (except for traffic of course)

Anyways if I could "get back on the horse" so to speak and manage to come this far without wrecking again... it makes me believe that with patience, determination and courage all obstacles can be overcome.

Importordomestic
11-22-2009, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the compliments guys.


I think I've realized that I justify increasing the performance of my car because its "safer" when honestly I just want to be able to look forward to going faster lol.

...btw I'm really digging the black-on-black look of that hatch in your avatar. :)

The last statement about safety, is exactly what i tell myself. I can buy 1300$ worth of brakes to ensure saftey and relaiability but i really just want to brake later before turn in. LOL

My car is actually a Memphis Pearl Blue (looks black at night / rain, real pretty blue in the day)

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1742/hpim1037.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/hpim1037.jpg/)
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9131/pa101978.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/i/pa101978.jpg/)

scars_of_carma
11-23-2009, 10:20 AM
The last statement about safety, is exactly what i tell myself. I can buy 1300$ worth of brakes to ensure saftey and relaiability but i really just want to brake later before turn in. LOL

My car is actually a Memphis Pearl Blue (looks black at night / rain, real pretty blue in the day)


Heh exactly! but it is true that our mods do make our cars safer. I've doged like a dozen deer (and cyclists) since I moved into my house (before that who knows?) ...things flying off trucks on the freeway... and generally retarded behavior by the rest of the motoring public... Although I have also proven that even if I get out of someones way they might smash into me anyway because they fixate on the object they are trying to avoid... :omg:

Can I use that color as part of my new paint scheme? That is a good looking hatch! :thumbup: My hatch will never look that good lol... so clean... so straight... could go lower though ;)

Joay
11-23-2009, 12:44 PM
This is awesome, I wish I had the balls to really try and drive smart when I go out to the mountains here. There's never any traffic and in the five years I've been making the same run I've only seen... maybe two police officers, but I just can't get myself to push. A lot of the speed limits on that road are really ambitious, so I still have fun, but it would be great to have spotters every few hundred yards so I could be confident I wouldn't hit anyone or get arrested.

Excellent info nonetheless! If my car is ever in decent shape I will try to put some of this to use.

Importordomestic
11-23-2009, 05:47 PM
Heh exactly! but it is true that our mods do make our cars safer. I've doged like a dozen deer (and cyclists) since I moved into my house (before that who knows?) ...things flying off trucks on the freeway... and generally retarded behavior by the rest of the motoring public... Although I have also proven that even if I get out of someones way they might smash into me anyway because they fixate on the object they are trying to avoid... :omg:

Can I use that color as part of my new paint scheme? That is a good looking hatch! :thumbup: My hatch will never look that good lol... so clean... so straight... could go lower though ;)

use whatever paint scheme you want off my hatch. It took me 3 months to straighten that body. You could never tell that i wrecked it once and clipped the entire front end from the shock towers forward..... lol

It doesn't look low in the picture but my coil overs are all the way down. i used a set from a 97 crv. The frame only has 3'' of ground clearance. Any lower and i cant pull into my own driveway. I had to get a low profile jack to get under the damn thing...lol

Speaking of touge has anyone ever run the Dragons tail in tennessee? I go at least twice a year with my 3 g it has to be one of the best ever. 318 turns in 11 miles. Here is a video clip i found from a sportbike perspective. If i pushed my car hard i could easily eat a set of tires.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=415823071892326317&ei=3TkLS87nDY3uqQLHt7jbDw&q=dragon%27s+tail+tennessee&hl=en#

honda s2k - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=415823071892326317&ei=3TkLS87nDY3uqQLHt7jbDw&q=dragon%27s+tail+tennessee&hl=en#docid=4026469765204057014

scars_of_carma
11-25-2009, 05:05 AM
This is awesome, I wish I had the balls to really try and drive smart when I go out to the mountains here. I still have fun, but it would be great to have spotters every few hundred yards so I could be confident I wouldn't hit anyone or get arrested.

I know how you feel I'm always worried about traffic and cops. Unfortunately there's little you can do to avoid them altogether... When you are driving anything close to the limit It takes guts to run touge.

There's a point where you have to commit to your pace or back off. If you worry too much it's just as bad as being overconfident. You may overreact because of your anxiety. The mind plays tricks on you especially at night on a remote mountain road... its important to remain focused on driving.

If you can do that if and when something unnexpected happens you will react differently. Driving technique is primarily based on learned-muscle-memory but instincts are also important. I can't remember how many times I've reacted to something the car was doing before I even realized it happened. That sort of awareness only comes with concentration.

Another thing they teach you at the racetrack is to look as far ahead as possible. This helps you drive smooth but it also makes you aware of any hazards further ahead. At night try and spot approaching traffic as soon as possible... For example On my home course people have a terrible habit of double-laning even at night. When its safe I've fallen into the habit of flicking my lights off before an approaching corner or crest in the road just to reassure myself there isn't omcomming traffic (If there is an oncomming car it also helps them spot you as well)

At the limit It's not enough to see the apex on an approaching corner if you don't already know what the corner-exit is like, or even where and what kind of corner is after that one, and after that, and so on. There's a rhythm with every road and track that you learn over time.

Sounds like you should have this road of yours memorized pretty good after 5 years :) You should be able to increase your pace safely when you commit to it.

One thing that might help is following (or chasing) a more experienced driver to start... keeping up with someone feels much easier then staying out front. At the track they tell you... "imagine that your car is magnetic pulling you towards the other one". Besides if they are out front they should react first to any road hazards which gives you extra warning.

Sorry for the rant just trying to help!


Any lower and i cant pull into my own driveway. I had to get a low profile jack to get under the damn thing...lol

hmm the height of your actual wheel/tire combo also affects ride-height and fender gap sometimes...I know what you mean though everytime I get a flat I literally have to lift the car up to fit a jack under it...



Speaking of touge has anyone ever run the Dragons tail in tennessee? I go at least twice a year with my 3 g it has to be one of the best ever. 318 turns in 11 miles.

Aww damn I envy you! I actually got invited to visit the dragon recently with some guys from another touge-site. Unfortunately that 2500 mile trip is not feasible for me (or my hatch) at this point lol. Someday though I want you to lead me through the dragon in our 3g's! Sound good? :D

Importordomestic
11-25-2009, 05:38 AM
I love the dragons tail. It is alot of fun and very very technical even at 7/10ths. I wonder if we could get a group of guys together to run a convoy through it, maybe the ease coast meet? 2,500 miles one way is an insane amount of miles for a one way trip. I would plan at minimum to stay a week in Tennessee to make the most out of it.

in that picture in my avatar I am running 195/50/15 my track tires are 225/45/15

Tdurr
12-27-2009, 03:24 PM
^^ check the meets section, we are gonna have a east coast meet not too far away from the dragon here soon so if u wanna go im down. I havent been but i hear its the shit lol.