New engine, new MT swap, NO START

[Dr_Snooz]

Well the new engine is all in. I went to start it today for the first time and it doesn't start:

1. The dash gauges do not light up. The background illumination comes on with the headlights, but the gauges and idiot lights are dead.
2. The main relay does not click
3. The starter shows no signs of life when I turn the key to the #3 start position
4. The battery is putting out 12.3 volts

The clock works, so the circuit to the ECU would seem to have power. I'm hoping it's just a connector I missed somewhere. Some possibilities I'm considering:

1. Some of the connectors under the dash look very similar and I might have gotten them crossed. I would think I'd blow fuses all over in that case, but maybe not
2. My junkyard MT ECU is bad
3. I broke a wire while wrestling with the looms under the dash and in the engine bay
4. I wired the shift interlock bypass wrong (doesn't explain the dead gauges though)

I'll be getting better acquainted with the wiring diagrams in the back of the manual and welcome any and all suggestions in the meantime.

Thank you all!

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh and I remember poo pooing the motoman engine break-in method (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm) some months ago, but after extensive reading, I'll be doing it exactly that way. :dunno:

Feel free to flame me. :sadwave:

[Pico]

I know you did this already but I'll mention it anyway.
Did you check to see if there is power to the Starter to and from the fuse box.
Is the alternator getting power?
Is the Relay getting power/ignition switch also getting power.

[lostforawhile]

Well the new engine is all in. I went to start it today for the first time and it doesn't start:

1. The dash gauges do not light up. The background illumination comes on with the headlights, but the gauges and idiot lights are dead.
2. The main relay does not click
3. The starter shows no signs of life when I turn the key to the #3 start position
4. The battery is putting out 12.3 volts

The clock works, so the circuit to the ECU would seem to have power. I'm hoping it's just a connector I missed somewhere. Some possibilities I'm considering:

1. Some of the connectors under the dash look very similar and I might have gotten them crossed. I would think I'd blow fuses all over in that case, but maybe not
2. My junkyard MT ECU is bad
3. I broke a wire while wrestling with the looms under the dash and in the engine bay
4. I wired the shift interlock bypass wrong (doesn't explain the dead gauges though)

I'll be getting better acquainted with the wiring diagrams in the back of the manual and welcome any and all suggestions in the meantime.

Thank you all!check the big connectors under the dash, the clock has nothing to do with the ecu, at least on carb cars,it's on a different circuit. do your back up lights work? if you blow the reverse light fuse, the gauges quit, same circuit.

[lostforawhile]

I'm thinking you somehow connected the neutral safety switch from the old shifter to the back up light circuit.

[Dr_Snooz]

Thanks guys. I checked the connectors under the dash and they seem right. There have been some changes under there with the new pedal box of course, so I could have gotten something wrong. I checked as many fuses as seemed relevant (with an ohmmeter) and they all checked out fine. It looks like the power to the ECU runs from the battery, through the ignition switch, then the gauge panel and finally to the ECU. If I follow that circuit, I should find something.

I have to go to yet another Thanksgiving gathering today so I get to put off the first start for a little longer...

[2ndGenGuy]

Did you jump the neutral safety wire (the big black one with a white stripe) when you pulled out the auto shifter harness? If you didn't, your car will not start. :)

Still wont "run it hard" on a new engine, kthx. :tongue:

[lostforawhile]

Did you jump the neutral safety wire (the big black one with a white stripe) when you pulled out the auto shifter harness? If you didn't, your car will not start. :)

Still wont "run it hard" on a new engine, kthx. :tongue:he said he ran a wire for the back up light circuit,i'm thinking he somehow connect the neutral safety switch wires to the back up circuit. the neutral safety runs from key output through the switch and to the solenoid, if it got connected to the back up light circuit it could have done something strange. I can't remember if the auto has the back up light switch in the transmission or in the shifter.

[lostforawhile]

I have another strange thing in this guide, one shows the neutral safety switch as a basic switch, yet it shows a ground connected to it in another diagram.

[2ndGenGuy]

You can just take the auto shifter harness, pull all the wires out except for the black one and solder it to itself in a loop and plug it back in and the car will start right up.

[lostforawhile]

how is the clutch pedal switch connected up on FI manual cars?

[Dr_Snooz]

You can just take the auto shifter harness, pull all the wires out except for the black one and solder it to itself in a loop and plug it back in and the car will start right up.

Yes! I did this. The heavy blk/wht wire, right? Not the little one. I did that. I crimped the two wires of the connector together. That way, I can just put the connector on to jumper it and pull it off to undo the jump. It probably doesn't matter, but I didn't want to hack up my harness. Glad to know I did that right.


I'm thinking you somehow connected the neutral safety switch from the old shifter to the back up light circuit.

I don't think I did this, but I'll check it. If I remember correctly, I cut the wires out of the shift position sensor where they ran into the R position and ran the lead from there. There were a few wires in that position so I kinda had to guess which light up the back up lights and which light up the position indicator in the dash.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll get on it tomorrow. Hopefully, I can drive her to work Monday.

[lostforawhile]

Yes! I did this. The heavy blk/wht wire, right? Not the little one. I did that. I crimped the two wires of the connector together. That way, I can just put the connector on to jumper it and pull it off to undo the jump. It probably doesn't matter, but I didn't want to hack up my harness. Glad to know I did that right.



I don't think I did this, but I'll check it. If I remember correctly, I cut the wires out of the shift position sensor where they ran into the R position and ran the lead from there. There were a few wires in that position so I kinda had to guess which light up the back up lights and which light up the position indicator in the dash.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll get on it tomorrow. Hopefully, I can drive her to work Monday.there is another neutral safety wire i believe a pink wire, it's used for the cruise, and possibly a signal wire to the computer. it closes when the auto tranny is in nuetral and activates the vent valve on the cruise, it's in case the cruise malfunctions you can throw it in neutral and the cruise vacuum all vents. on a manual car it's attached to the clutch pedal switch. I believe it grounds when the auto is in neutral or the clutch pedal is pushed. anyone know where the back up switch is on the auto?

[lostforawhile]

another thing on the back up lights,it's hot through the switch, the switch never grounds, hot from the fuse through the switch, power out, to the lights, and the ground is after the bulbs. if the back up lamp switch somehow got connected to ground it would blow the fuse, under the hood, and the back up lights will fail as well as all your gauges and indicator lamps.

[Civic Accord Honda]

When i fucked up my reverse lights some of my lights didnt work (Cluster ilumination and tail lights and something else i dont remember) but the car did get full power to start and run and drive , also hte oil pressuer and cel and what knot still worked... it sounds like it may be a ign problem or a main fuse or one of the main power cables

[Civic Accord Honda]

also check grounds of course

[Oldblueaccord]

Well try maybe running a jumper wire to the ignition switch and see if that will light everything off.

EDIT: 89's have the clutch lock out switch did they not ? Might want to look and see where that need to be hooked up on your harness.


wp

[89T]

for some reason i want to tell you that you need to run a pair of wires from the reverse light switch on the tranny to the shifter area.{for the reverse lights)
Although this may be part of the issue, Its not your main problem.
there should be a group of ground wire's 12 awg that are used for the fuel injection,and possibly ecu ground on the driver side . It grounds to the intake manifold near the fuel injectors. make sure they are connected.
Also there is a white rectangle plug that connects under or to the front of the light side of the battery. this plug has something to do with the alternator ,ecu power and possibly the power windows(?)...
most of this is from memory of when i installed my stand alone so it may not be totally correct as to whats what. these are points that need to be checked though.

If i need to i can probably pull my console and check wiring for you.lmk

[lostforawhile]

Ok there will be two wires that run from the old auto transmission console to the the back up light switch, there will also have to be two wires jumped for the safety interlock switch, at the center console. what I can't find on my diagrams, there is a safety interlock for the clutch switch, you have the manual ecu correct? I would assume it connects to the ecu somehow, it's there in 89 models. also if you hooked this up correctly, make sure the little button is on the clutch arm,or the computer will always think the clutch is pushed. can someone find the clutch pedal interlock diagram? or does it just use a relay to close the same circuit as the shifter? If the wires going to the back up lamps are wired wrong,it will blow the fuse, also knocking out your gauges. here are some diagrams. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/2009-11-29_130230.png
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/2009-11-29_130453.png
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/2009-11-29_131652.png

[lostforawhile]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/2009-11-29_134617.png

[lostforawhile]

Ok on a manual transmission car the pink wire goes to the clutch safety switch,same as the cruise control, in the auto car, it's grounded anytime the car is in a drive gear, the clutch switch also grounds when the clutch isn't pushed, this prevents starting in a drive gear or when the clutch is up somehow, i can't find a diagram with a relay or anything, anyone? edit, it's strange that the pink wire is only grounded in forward gears, i guess the neutral safety keeps it from starting in reverse.

[Civic Accord Honda]

even if there was a problem with the auto lock out or clutch safty switch the idiot lights should still light up...

[lostforawhile]

even if there was a problem with the auto lock out or clutch safty switch the idiot lights should still light up...

do you actually read the thread or just comment? he ran wires to hook up the back up light switch,if it's hooked up wrong it will blow the fuse and knock out the gauges and idiot lights. I mentioned this at least three times, they are on the same fuse.

[Civic Accord Honda]

do you actually read the thread or just comment? he ran wires to hook up the back up light switch,if it's hooked up wrong it will blow the fuse and knock out the gauges and idiot lights. I mentioned this at least three times, they are on the same fuse.

Yes ive read this thread, He said the instrument background lights works but the idiot lights dont work.
When the fuse blows for the Back up light switch it blows the background lights , and tail lights. The oil pressure light, and CEL still worked....along with the rest of the idiot lights....
Ive had my reverse lights wires messed up a few times now and all the times thats what happend, the idoit lights still worked and the car still would start and run ...

I would if its one of the grounds behind the dash. They tend to come loose over time..

[lostforawhile]

these are the two connections that go to the manual transmission back up light switch,if they ground anywhere, the fuse will blow. This is the plug at the shifter. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/backup.png

[lostforawhile]

Yes ive read this thread, He said the instrument background lights works but the idiot lights dont work.
When the fuse blows for the Back up light switch it blows the background lights , and tail lights. The oil pressure light, and CEL still worked....along with the rest of the idiot lights....
Ive had my reverse lights wires messed up a few times now and all the times thats what happend, the idoit lights still worked and the car still would start and run ...

I would if its one of the grounds behind the dash. They tend to come loose over time..
the tailights have nothing do do with the back up lights, they are on the same main fuse as the headlights, the headlights split into four circuits after the switch, the headlights and taillights have power coming into the switch from one 40 amp main fuse, then it splits into 1 circuit for the taillights and dash lights, and into two more circuits for low and high beams, those two circuits are split into four more fuses one for each low beam and high beam, the brake lights are on the horn fuse, the back up lights are on the gauge,instrument cluster fuse, the oil pressure is a different circuit.

[lostforawhile]

the only thing i can see as far as the clutch safety switch, is since the computer directly controls the coils in the main relay,both of them, it may be an input that inhibits the main relay from operating.

[lostforawhile]

Ok if that back up light fuse is blown, it will knock out the back up lights, the oil pressure warning light,fuel warning light,fuel gauge,temp gauge,safety indicator, brake warning lamp,and whatever else is on connection 6 and connection 9, haven't traced them yet.

[ecogabriel]

Perhaps a stupid suggestion, but here it goes:

Is it possible to re-connect the A/T switch where it used to be?
If so, by leaving the switch in P you should get power to the engine as before, so it should power up again (save for a blown fuse).
If it runs, then the problem was in the wiring you used to bridge the switch. I read the wires had similar colors so it would be quite easy to make a mistake there
At least you may reduce the troubleshooting scope a bit; and if it does not work at least you know that it should have, indication the problem(s) are somewhere else.

My 0.002

[Dr_Snooz]

The car runs!!! Woohoo!!! I wired everything up correctly. Back up lights work and the interlock is bypassed. I tracked the circuit from the battery and discovered that when I was swapping the pedal box, I didn't reconnect the ignition switch to the fuse box. If you contort yourself into a pretzel and look through this opening:

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq132/dr_snooz/SNC00080.jpg

You'll see a connector that looks like this.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq132/dr_snooz/Presentation1-3.jpg

Jeepers. Can't imagine how I missed that one.

The car starts and runs beautifully! Thanks to everyone for the great help.

[A18A]

lol hahaha always the simple things, glad u got it running (Y)

[Pico]

Good Stuff, glad to see you got her going

[redaztec]

Glad you found the problem and got it running!

[2ndGenGuy]

w00t! Nice work man!! Glad she's running! 5 speed swap FTW!!

[nswst8]

Great job! Have fun.

[Civic Accord Honda]

Sweet stuff snooz! Congrats on getting the beast running, How does it feel to know you built everything yourself?

[lostforawhile]

as far as the cruise let me know i have the wring diagram for you, the pink wire that came out of the shifter now has to go to the clutch switch,

[lostforawhile]

here snooze, it should be the pink wire at the shifter plug, it grounds in all forward gears. it goes to the clutch switch, should also be pink, and the black wire at the clutch switch goes to ground. http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd158/lostforawhile/cruisecontrol.png

[ecogabriel]

The car runs!!! Woohoo!!!

Jeepers. Can't imagine how I missed that one.

The car starts and runs beautifully! Thanks to everyone for the great help.

I contorted myself over there a while ago to fix the antenna. I fixed it but forgot to reconnect the cruise control box. It is quite bigger than the one you missed.
I felt quite stupid but the working position is dreadful. You did an awful lot of down there and everywhere else man. At least you got it figured out.

Anyway.... congrats for getting the beast back to work!!! New car now, and you OWN the work! Enjoy!