LXi Down (Won't Start)

[Blackbird_]

My fellow 3geez'ers,

I've spent the last 7? 8? hours outside trying to get my car to start. Here's the deal:

I had remembered a couple months back my parents had someone take a look at the car. It was running a little rough after the timing belt change. He noticed (said) that one of the spark plugs was loose. Recently, the idle has been a little jumpy (I thought this might be from bent valves after my timing belt snapped) so as I was heading home, I thought, maybe its the plugs that are causing the jumpy idle. So one seems not to have an endcap on it, and long story short I ended up messing up a spark plug wire in the process but replaced said plug and plug wire.

Try to start the car and no firing. Starter sounds like it's kicking, clicks (maybe spark) but no fire. Car has gas in it too. So I fiddle around with plug 2 (the one I replaced with an NGK V Power) I adjust it from all the way tightened to loose to not so loose, etc. Read the spark plug box (1/8th turn hand tighten?), checked wiring order on the dizzy and the plugs, double checked according to diagram on 3geez boards...Each time I'm hearing clicks but no firing. Not even like the rururururu when it's fuel trouble or you're out of gas. All the while, the radio works, headlights, chiming...

Then after a while I notice the lights are getting dim so I think maybe it's the battery! Maybe it doesn't have enough amps to push everything through. Test battery with a small screwdriver light tester that came with my toolkit and it's dim. (Although the day before the car seemed fine,peachy but it had been sitting for at least 2 weeks) Went to Walmart and got it exchanged (took 5 people and over an hour...don't even get me started...)

Pop fresh battery in the car: Ground(black) first, then negative(red). I hear one chime (only one) and the side(yellow) lights come on. The left one is noticeably brighter than the right. Try to start and nothing. Bupkiss, nada, zilch, zero. Brake lights work if I press the brake pedal. Headlamps work if I turn them all the way on (off, 2nd position, all the way on). High beam works too. No radio, turn signals, or even the clickings I heard before. I reverse the terminals and same thing. The dash indicators (PGM-FI, check engine, etc don't show in either case)

So now I'm pullin fuses. Under the hood all seems well but when I connect the battery the 10A ECU clock fuse burns out. (Twice) Check in the car, I pull the rightmost bank of fuses, all good. The rest don't want to come out and I'm giving up.

If anyone will be in the Austin,Texas area tomorrow and wants to give it a crack/help me out shoot me a PM. Any ideas on what's going on? I've just about had it with this car...I studied that Haynes/Chilton manual, bought a toolset, tried to learn in earnest..just yesterday I was trying to learn about suspension systems and control arms. I am seriously considering trying to sell it (I don't think there's a lot of demand on CL for it) or junkyard it. It wouldn't be so bad if I was getting somewhere with it like as I read and tried more, the car responded..Curses, prayers, time and tools and the thing seems even worse than when I started. Perhaps I should try public transportation...

[Bass Man]

Grounds. Sounds like the either the one between the battery and transmission or the engine to body ground is not very good.

[dacantu]

seems iffy man. i dont think its your alternator because you would atleast get the rururururu you were talking about. you should check your grounds like bass man said. the one from engine to chassis is connected to the valve cover and atteches near the left headlight. just incase you didnt know.

dont give up on the poor car. it needs your help to come back to life. Good luck with getting it running. i hope you dont get rid of it.

[Bass Man]

I'm a little worried about the main ground that runs from the battery straight to the tranny. I bet it's either really corroded or loose.

[dacantu]

I'm a little worried about the main ground that runs from the battery straight to the tranny. I bet it's either really corroded or loose.

or fromthe batt ground to the starter?

[Bass Man]

Some go to the tranny and some to the starter. The positive goes straight to the starter, but I'm sure that's not it.

[Civic Accord Honda]

did u try wiggleing the contections ?i have to do that every now and then on my car for it to start

[Demon1024]

just to rule out the ground thing.

Take some jumper cables and hook one end to the neg. on the battery and the other to the tranny or valve cover or where ever on the engine. that will put that out of suspicion.

[Oldblueaccord]

You should have never "reversed" the battery terminals thats a dead short right there. If your lucky the main fuse should have blown. Get a battery that has at least 12 volts on it. The car will start with about 11 volts on it if its running 100% to start with.

Make sure the battery terminals are tight on the battery post. You should not be able to turn them off with your hand. Tightening the nuts is not always enough the battery terminals on new batteries are undersized.

Verify that the cars is cranking over. I can't tell from your description if it even was to start with.

Next check that you do have spark at the plug or plug wire and trace back from there. If you dont i would start by looking that the distributor is turning inside. It is driven off the cam and the cam is run by the timing belt. If the belt is off again none of that works.

wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Don't feel too bad. Wiring problems are far and away the worst to figure out and fix. They will leave you feeling exactly like you're feeling. Unlike every other car problem, where you can kinda look and see the problem, wiring problems are all invisible. Easter egging only makes it worse. The worst way to fix a car problem is to guess at the failing part, spend money to replace it and hope that it works. It won't. That's a recipe for a lot of spending and no results.

The manual has a lot of very thorough and detailed wiring diagrams. You have to figure out what circuit the failure is on and then start testing things on that circuit. You need a proper multimeter to do it. A test light just won't cut it.

I'm not understanding when you say: "Read the spark plug box (1/8th turn hand tighten?)" Do you mean that you haven't torqued the spark plugs to 13 ft-lbs? If you haven't, then your plugs might not be grounding properly to the block and that will make it awfully difficult to start.

"Then after a while I notice the lights are getting dim so I think maybe it's the battery! " Yes, if you spend "a while" cranking unsuccessfully, the battery will get tired. Typically, if the lights all go dim when you start cranking, your battery is tired. The only real way to test it properly, however, is with a voltmeter. It shouldn't fall below 9.6 while you (or someone else) are cranking. At rest, it should produce at least 12v.

"So now I'm pullin fuses." You want to check those with an ohmmeter preferably. Should register 0 ohms (or very nearly). Too much resistance and they are bad, even if they look fine.

"The rest don't want to come out and I'm giving up." Use a fuse puller or a needle-nosed pliers (gently).

"Pop fresh battery in the car: Ground(black) first, then negative(red)." Red is the positive terminal and has the cap on it. You want to connect that first, so that might explain something.

"Try to start and nothing." Not sure what year you have, but the '89 manual is here (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php). It does have a rudimentary starter diagnosis on p. 24-30. Try it. This manual doesn't include the big wiring diagrams that are at the back of the printed manual and if you don't get results by now, you're going to need those to track the circuit through the car and find the problem. They are too big to scan well, but if you need them, I can try to scan them.

Mostly, you just have to keep testing until you find out where the problem is. It's very time consuming and incredibly frustrating, BUT, wiring problems are almost always something simple and inexpensive. That's the good news, if there is any.

Keep us posted.

[ShyBoyCA6]

yo bro dont sell your car....if you sell it then the other person would get it up and running and then you'll be like damn never should of sold it......dont let the car win this fight...fight to win the car back probably something got wet and maybe causing a short did you check that?? or maybe need a better battery

good luck with your car man

[nswst8]

Keep it to basics.

Check timing

Check firing order and correct spark plug wire order

Test starter with a volt meter (theres a test section in the manual)

Battery Black to negative (-) Red to positive (+)

If you have a spark inline tester great use it, if not Pull spark plug (keep the plug wire attached) ground it to the head, have someone turn engine over to see it the spark plug fires.

If you can't get the engine to turn over your primary problem is at the starter.


Edit:

If you are not getting it to turn over, check power to starter and then make sure that the wire contacts to starter are secure. (I remember I swapped starters once and thought I had the wires tighten down securely and they were not)

[Blackbird_]

Thanks for the replies and encouragement guys. I'm not giving up. A few remarks:

CAH: Wiggled battery terminals & ground from valve cover to the chassis (actually unbolted it and rebolted it. No corrosion or rust.)

Demon1024: Attached a negative (black) jumper cable from the battery to the valve cover. Then attached the positive (red) cable (the car's, not the jumper cable) to the positive (red) battery terminal. Sparks and sizzling at the valve cover (without attempting to crank) so I disconnected everything. Without the jumper cables, connecting the battery produces no sparks or sizzles.

Oldblueaccord: Main fuse is intact (under-hood fuse box). Car is not cranking at all.

Dr. Snooz: On the spark plug box, on the table it says if you hand-tighten then you should only do it 1/8th of a rotation but to me this seems really loose. I hand tightened my plug because the socket in my kit doesn't fit it. It's like 3x8" by something else...maybe I need a metric spark plug socket? Also how do you check the torque when you tighten it?

Hang on..Snooz, you're saying connect the red one first then black, nswst8, you're saying as long as they are on the right terminals?


So here's my plan of action:

Read manual
Test battery with my multimeter
Test fuses with multimeter
Test voltage at starter
Check firing order & spark plug wire order
Torque spark plugs with a spark plug socket (How do I measure the torque?)
Check dizzy

The thing that worries me is before I swapped the battery, at least I was getting something (clicking) and the dash lights and chiming and headlights but now dash lights and chime are gone. So the car has power for headlights but not even for the radio? Weird..

[nswst8]

Is the interior overhead light working, if the bulb is blown it will interupt the radio power.

Attempt the black jumper cable again from the negative side of the battery to the engine lift point just behind the valve cover/timing belt cover. (Note: you can use any solid metal on the engine as a grounding point) (just stay away from the fuel rail)

You may need to put a full charge on the battery again. What is the voltage reading on the battery now?

And yes: Black is negative(-), Red is positive(+)

[w261w261]

Um...in your first post, after you get the new battery at Wal-Mart, you talk about "reversing the terminals." Then, in your last post, you talk about connecting the ground of the battery to the valve cover, and when you hooked up the positive terminal to the red lead on the car there was "sizzling" at the valve cover.

I've never actually seen this happen, but on this site people have talked about reversing the terminals, and it almost always has had really bad consequences. You may have, and probably actually have, cooked several things like the ECU or the Alternator. The "sizzling" at the valve cover is bad too. Are you sure that you know which is the positive lead of the battery and which is the negative?

[89T]

Then attached the positive (red) cable (the car's, not the jumper cable) to the positive (red) battery terminal. Sparks and sizzling at the valve cover (without attempting to crank) so I disconnected everything. Without the jumper cables, connecting the battery produces no sparks or sizzles. [

dude, A direct short on the battery can cause an explosion if that dosent kill you the acid will eat you alive.

just making sure you know.

ground the black terminal to the engine, preferably not around the belts.
ground the other side to the battery negitive. do not connect the red at all.


good luck

[bank2me]

Blackbird did you get the accord started?

[Demon1024]

Rofl

" Attached a negative (black) jumper cable from the battery to the valve cover. Then attached the positive (red) cable (the car's, not the jumper cable) to the positive (red) battery terminal. Sparks and sizzling at the valve cover (without attempting to crank) so I disconnected everything. Without the jumper cables, connecting the battery produces no sparks or sizzles."

Omg dude im glad you're ok!
I didn't mention anything about the positive connection at all tho. Was to check ground!

But yeah check the wires them selves on the battery too. The Pos. should have one wire that goes directly to the starter on the tranny. and the neg has one that drops right behind the battery tray to the Body. I've had cars where the wires colors where both red or both black before when someone replaced them not thinking

[Blackbird_]

Sorry guys, I haven't gotten the car up and running yet. I haven't been able to spend a lot of time on it as this is exam week (sleep is for the weak :) ) so its been long hours in the library and lots of public transportation :( but today friday is the last day so hopefully...

Heh, I just now re-read your post Demon..dunno where I got the idea about the positive in my head lol...

[Blackbird_]

Alright, so just got back from under the hood and here are the results:

Black (negative) ground battery cable does indeed go to the transmission
Red (positive) battery cable goes somewhere...I couldn't trace it all the way but it seems to go under the P/S pressure lines (guessing thats what those are) and somewhere near the front of the car (in front and under the engine but before the radiator)
Voltage at the battery disconnected: 12.6V
Voltage at the battery connected ~12.5V (12.55 then 12.54...side marker lights were on...)
Fuses 5 and 11 (Retra SW and ECU Clock respectively) are bad

Tomorrow I'm heading to get some new 10A fuses and a spark plug socket that fits the V-Powers. What worries me is the ECU Clock fuse. As I mentioned earlier when I connected the battery before (previous occasion) it blew the ECU Clock fuse twice. What could this be a sign of? I have a bad feeling I f'ed something up...

Edit: After searching on this and other forums blowing the ECU clock fuse seems to be a sign that there is a short somewhere. After connecting the battery (the right way!) there is a chime (one single chime) from inside and the side marker lights come on. The switch inside for the head lights is in the off position and the key was not even in the ignition (it was in my pocket). From an old post I got the idea of testing the resistance from the negative terminal of the battery to the frame of the car and also the resistance from the positive terminal to the fuse box. Would this be something worth trying?

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok

Battery voltage sounds good.

Grounds are also on the valve cover to the radaitor support on the driver side up top. There is one hidden on the fuel rail it helps the injectors.

Positve wire to the starter and the main fuse box under the hood. You may have to pull the main box out and look underneath for melted terminals.

I would pull the light fuses they should NOT be on if the light switch is off. Sounds like there some wires bad there from the polarity switch. I think the retract fuse is for the headlight motors. They might be stuck and pulling without you knowing it. The motors can be manually forced up when the fuses are pulled.

Replace the ECU fuse and see if it starts.

The ECU is under the drivers seat. You may have to pull it out and look it over for burnt wires or a melted ground.

The resistance measurements won't really help unless the wires are open (broken). Use your meter to check for bad fuses for now.

Unhook the battery if you do anywork on the car also and be ready to pull the positive terminal if you see or smell anything smoking.

wp

[Blackbird_]

More news:

70A (Battery) fuse in the main (underhood) fuse box is blown and according to the service manual the ICU is blown (25-103). Also, there's def a short somewhere as the voltage difference from the negative battery terminal to the car grounds (body and valve cover) is 12.6V. ECU doesn't flash the LED when batt is connected regardless of the position of the key in ignition. Can I pull fuses out of the main fuse box to try and narrow down what subsystem the short is in? I checked the cables again as best I could and there doesn't seem to be any melted insulation but I need to remove the box to be sure. Jacking the car up would help to trace it to the starter and transmission bell housing as well. One of the cables wires into the main fuse box and the voltage different between the cables running in and out of the box is 12.6 so there's no power going to the ignition switch (according the the diagram in the svc manual) but there's power to the ignition switch light, the lighting switch, and the WHT/GRN cable.

Questions:
Pricing/Availability on the 70A fuse?
Grab an ICU from j/y?
Where (physically) is the ignition switch light?

Even worse, I found that the airbox wasn't even connected right, just kind of squeezed in, and there's a hose coming from the back of my brake booster that looks like it was cut and is not connected to anything...

Edit: ECU Clock fuse is blown so of course the ECU led won't flash...I want to just find the short before I replace parts so they don't blow again.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well the 70 amp main fuse blowing is a good thing it prolly stopped a lot of damage. Try an autoparts store for a new one.

Pulling every fuse and adding in one at a time is a good way to isolate stuff.

Using your meter with the continuity you can check for shorts (power off). It will beep if the probes are touched together so a short will show this way also. Checking positive wires to ground.


There is a main white wire that runs up and true the steering column to the light switch stalk (blinkers,wipers,lights) this may have gotten melted or damaged where it connects to this combo switch. I think you can take a cover off the back of it and see the wires without removing the steering wheel etc.

wp

[Blackbird_]

Back once again...my never ending electrical saga.

Tonight I unhooked the negative cable and connected my multimeter from the negative terminal of the battery to the valve cover. 12.6V. Ok so it's a short. I then proceed to pull each of the underhood fuses (and fusible links) one by one. No change - multimeter still reads 12.6V. Pull the relays as well one by one. 12.6V. Pull the in car fuses one by one. 12.6V. I was trying to narrow down which circuit the short is on so having no change with the fuses is a bit weird. I'm thinking either the some part of the grounding cables is touching something "hot" or the positive cable at some point is electrifying the body. I got the above readings with the negative cable completely off so the problem should be with the positive cable right? I traced the positive cable, it seems like it goes under the battery box (as mentioned before) and into some kind of bracket or something on something immediately left of the engine but deeper down (bell housing maybe??) This doesn't seem right but maybe I am tracing the wrong wire. I need to remove the battery box (the metal part that is bolted in) to find out for sure. That should give me access to the full length of the positive cable and save my sanity...hopefully. What size are the bolts on the battery tray bolts? (After removing the plastic tray)

[Dr_Snooz]

From the looks of it, you are pretty much out of ideas. There's too much material here to make sense of what's going on anymore, so let's start over.

Okay, so what is happening now? If you connect the battery, what happens? The lights come on? (They aren't turned on, right?) The main fuse blows? Everything is fine until you turn the key and then several fuses blow? Does the car crank? Does it get spark? Do you smell burning wires ever? What's the car doing, right now?

Things seem to have been fine until this sentence: "So one seems not to have an endcap on it, and long story short I ended up messing up a spark plug wire in the process but replaced said plug and plug wire." I'd like to hear that long story as it will probably point to the problem. It was after this that the lights starting acting weird and it wouldn't start.

I'll caution you that with reversing the polarity on the battery, you might have a bigger problem on your hands than you (or anyone else, honestly) are up to. Please do be careful when you are poking around under the hood. You can really make a mess if you just go crashing through things without thinking.

Anyway, post up what's going on now. Nothing elaborate, just "turn key and dash catches fire" type of stuff.

[nswst8]

The Positive (RED) cable connects to the starter directly and the underhood fuse box.

The Black (Negative) cable connects directly to the ground on the transmission.

The other black wire coming from the underhood fuse box that travels under the battery tray goes to the main engine harness to the Alternator (I believe)

It is likely that the wire going under the battery tray is shorting. Remove the battery tray and inspect the wire. You might have to trace the main engine harness all the way back to the alternator. But hopefully not.

Otherwise check for someones elses aftermarket installation of some component that was probably jerry rigged, that is shorting.

Battery tray bolts are 10mm

[nswst8]

Alright, so just got back from under the hood and here are the results:

Black (negative) ground battery cable does indeed go to the transmission
Red (positive) battery cable goes somewhere...I couldn't trace it all the way but it seems to go under the P/S pressure lines (guessing thats what those are) and somewhere near the front of the car (in front and under the engine but before the radiator)
Voltage at the battery disconnected: 12.6V
Voltage at the battery connected ~12.5V (12.55 then 12.54...side marker lights were on...)
Fuses 5 and 11 (Retra SW and ECU Clock respectively) are bad

Tomorrow I'm heading to get some new 10A fuses and a spark plug socket that fits the V-Powers. What worries me is the ECU Clock fuse. As I mentioned earlier when I connected the battery before (previous occasion) it blew the ECU Clock fuse twice. What could this be a sign of? I have a bad feeling I f'ed something up...

Edit: After searching on this and other forums blowing the ECU clock fuse seems to be a sign that there is a short somewhere. After connecting the battery (the right way!) there is a chime (one single chime) from inside and the side marker lights come on. The switch inside for the head lights is in the off position and the key was not even in the ignition (it was in my pocket). From an old post I got the idea of testing the resistance from the negative terminal of the battery to the frame of the car and also the resistance from the positive terminal to the fuse box. Would this be something worth trying?

From this posting it sounds like someone tried to upgrade the Alternator wire, wiring it directly to the battery. Remove this wire.

The only wires that should be coming off the positive terminal is to the starter and the underhood fuse box.

[Hauntd ca3]

righto.
get yourself a couple main fuses and whack one in.
make sure the ign is off and the batt is connected the right way round.
does it blow the main fuse?
hopefully not. if yyour did connect the batt round the wrong way before that would blow the main fuse straight off.
if it dosnt blow, grab your multi meter and set it to the 10 amp scale and pull the neg batt clamp off and put the ammeter in line and see what it reads.
if its around 80 milli amps or 0.080 on the display, thats normal.
if its reads a few amps, pull the fuses one by one until it goes away and thats the circuit you want.
thenits just amatter of tracing the bastard down.
i do this shit for a living and it can be a complete wanker of a thing to find.
one tool i did make for just such a job is just an old blown fuse that i've cut a bit of plastic off round the top and soldered a length of 2 core cable to and attached a headlight bulb to.
once you find the guilty circuit, stick the modded fuse in inplace of the blown one and it will light up, the brightness will vary depending on the size of the short, then just start working thru the loom wiggling it as you go until the light goes out, and you have found where abouts the short is.

[Lil Mike]

im sorry to say this, but to stop further damage to your car, i would bring it into a shop. to me i see you really have a clue with electrical and you might do further damage like reversing the battery leads and shorting out the battery on the valve cover. i know everyone is trying to help but you haven't gotten any further you have gone further back. its really hard to explain electrical problems over the internet and it almost never works out properly. just replace all the fuses that are bad, you probably blew them hooking your battery in backwards, start over.

ps. i mean no harm or issues.

[kentwat]

For big fuses like that just hit a pullapart and start pulling from fuse boxes. For a couple of bucks you can get all you want and while you are there you can scope out other cars like yours for wiring differences.
Edit: In rereading seeing your voltage reading without the negative cable on the battery and your main bat fuse blown I would be pulling the starter and checking there for the short. Your positive should go to your fuse block and the other should be going to the starter. It goes down but then it goes across and under radiator hose and intake, because starter is on top of the tranny where it meets engine block.
Then post back.