Starting issue, occasional starter grind.

[Jared]

So, it's me again. I've got a new problem. I've tried searching the threads, but I can't seem to find any that give me a lead on what my problem is or how to fix it.

Basically, I start my car (doesn't matter when, warm or cold) and it doesn't fire right up. After a few tries it will though! Even when it doesn't fire right away, I can hear it trying to. Sometimes it will get flooded (FI) because I've tried starting a few too many times. So it's not the fuel pump or filter or injectors.

When I first try to start it (keep in mind this is not consistent, sometimes it'll start no problem) it'll try to turn over but won't kick, I'll also hear the starter grind out like the piston gear on the starter is retracting. I bought a new starter in Sept. I've tested the battery (brand new and right size) and the alternator and they're fine. I'm getting 14.5 on the meter. I've replaced the timing belt and had the car timed, I've replaced the plugs and distro cap + rotor, checked the wires, checked the battery cables, replaced the fuel filter, and checked the codes. I'm not concluding its a main replay, ignition, or electrical for the simple fact that the car is cranking and eventually starting. I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea, the car doesn't struggle to start like it's not getting fuel or spark. It's like the starter doesn't stay engaged long enough to allow it to kick over.

Now, the obvious answer would be I've got a bad starter. Not the case though, at least I don't think. Here's why. I pulled the starter today and took it down to be tested. The starter works fine. Even tested the solenoid and it tests fine. The peculiar observation I had was that the gear on the starter clearly showed wear marks at about half way on the teeth as if the piston was only coming out halfway. It didn't do that when it was tested though. I watched the gear come out all the way and the solenoid kicked it out all the way too. So I'm at a loss as to what exactly is going on. I hate the grinding sound! The car fired right up after I put the starter back in, but when I went to the gas station and started it back up, I heard a slight grind. Not as bad as it was before, but I'm worried it will get worse again.

Anyone out there with ideas? Just buy another new starter (I'd rather not)?

[Hauntd ca3]

most starters will only engage half or a bit over half of the pinion gear with the ring gear on the flywheel. duz the pinion look like its been grinding on the ring gear?
when you had it tested, did they do a stall test on it?
or did they use a piece of wood to apply some strain on it?
just doing a free running test wont show up a stuffed clutch in the drive of the starter. they make a whistling/grinding noise when they slip.
get the clutch tested before you get another starter
another quick test is if you have a manual, put it in gear, foot off the clutch and stand on the brake while turning the key.
is a cheats stall test. dont do it for more than a second or so as the current draw is prob in the region of 450 amps and will burn out the field coils and armature.
if the starter tries to move the car, clutch is good, if it makes that whistley/grindy noise, i'd say the clutch is gone

[Jared]

"duz the pinion look like its been grinding on the ring gear?
when you had it tested, did they do a stall test on it?
or did they use a piece of wood to apply some strain on it?"

I didn't see any noticeable "grinding" just wear or discloration.
They did not do a stall test. It was a parts store, the one I got it at, and they just did the standard test.

Curious question: I was reading about wear on the flywheel over time. My car is a manual and I had the clutch replaced back in about 2004. Clutch doesn't slip or anything so i have no reason to believe the clutch is bad.

But,

*How common is it to have to replace the flywheel on our cars?
*Should they be replaced when a clutch is replaced?
*Is it usually standard practice for a mechanic to replace the flywheel at the same time the clutch is replaced, or would they likely use the same flywheel?

I'd think it would be dependent on how much wear is on the flywheel, but my mechanic never indicated to me there was a concern........granted that was 5 years ago.

I suppose I'll have to take the starter back out and check the teeth on the flywheel.

[Oldblueaccord]

In order:

1. Main relaly: car will still crank over it gets no fuel or sometimes no spark or both. May fire for 1 sec then die off. I did a write up in the EFI section.

Check the Honda Main Relay in Your Car (http://autorepair.about.com/od/enginetroubleshootin1/a/hon_mnrelay_tst.htm)

2. TW sensor: sensor in T-stat housing makes the EFI too rich and floods esp on cold start ups. Theres a write up in the EFI section as well.


EDIT found the link

TW Sensor! (https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/60400-tw-sensor.html)

3. Starter; bendix gear may be bad, or the solinoid weak enough that it wont hold in to the fly wheel. If your flywheel teeth are bad then you may have to grind slots in the starter and move it until it fits good or get a new flywheel. If your holding the starter on (in) more then 30 secs it will kill it pretty quick. There not that type of motor. Rebuilds are usually junk they test them unload and on a DC motor that means very little.

good luck!

EDIT: on any clutch it is sop to turn the flywheel when replacing the clutch disc. Honda does not recommend you turn there's. I have and it works OK mine itself is turned to much(undersized) but i have over 150k on this clutch atm so I dont see any harm in it.

[G. White]

This may sound odd...but I chased this same ghost in the machine for quite a while. At first I thought it was the starter because it would sometime sound like it was straining or hanging up on the flywheel, (I also took forever to start..almost to the point of embarassment in public) but that wasn't the problem. I conducted a fuel pressure check, once again no dice..cap, rotor, battery, cables, timing...it would go away and come back. Eventually I did two things that ended the whole ordeal. 1 changed the ignition contol module (the square silver thing on the dizzy held on by two screws) and 2, there is a black wire that gets grounded on one of the ignition control module mounting screws that I believe goes to the camshaft position sensor. I had a screw that grounded that wire vibrate loose after x amount of miles every so often. The combo of the two were sending an erratic signal on startup....but once the car cranked over it ran great. I snagged an ICM at the junkyard (its small and fits in a package of orbit gum) Hint Hint. Hope this gives you somewhere to look and good luck. Keep us posted.

[Bluntman]

As far as hard to start, and flooding. My buddies car did the same thing, You could smell the gas. Even though it did not throw a code, I replaced the tw sensor ( ECT engine coolant temperature sensor) and it starts fine.Good luck.

[Hauntd ca3]

by clutch, i was meaning the one in the starter motor, not the other one.
the pinion has a clutch behind it to stop the starter motor being driven by the motor when it starts and blowing it to bits.
dont forget that the pinion to ring gear gear ratio is somewhere better than 15:1.
the starter is going at a few thousand revs to turn the motor at 3 or 400, you satrt the motor and if the pinion is still engaged the motor will drive the starter and spin it really fast and will self destruct .
the clutch will allow the pinion to effectively disconnect itself from the rest of the starter armature .
after alot of use, especially if the motor has a hard time catching and you are holding the starter on until it duz catch and stay, you are driving the mtor then the motors driving the starter and doing that until the motor stays you are putting a world of hurt on the starter clutch which will stuff it pretty fast

[Jared]

A lot of good feedback, thanks guys! I had the flywheel checked out and it came out fine, so I've ruled that out. The TW sensor has been replaced, I did that about a month or two ago when I replaced my oxygen sensors.

Oldblue, I think you're onto something with the Bendix. I'll checkout the main relay too, but I'm not having any problems ignition wise. I think you're right about the Bendix though and the starter is a reman from Schucks/O'reily. I'm having a hell of a time trying to get them to swap it out for another one. So much for a warranty. They say "if it tests fine, we can't exchange or return it". Pain the a$$. The Bendix definitely sounds like its too weak to hold and spin the flywheel. When it holds it starts fine, but now it sounds like sometimes it doesn't even bother to engage until I turn the key the second time. The first time (again sporadic) the starter just spins! I think I'll go down tomorrow and raise some shit till I get a replacement starter.

G. White, I'll take a look at the ignition control module too. I always thought that thing was called an igniter! Ha ha! I had to replace it a long time ago. It was like a $300 part, fortunately the mechanic just donated one to me that he had laying around. Nice guy and great mechanic, wish he was still working on cars. Anyway, thanks for all your help.

I'll keep you guys posted.

[Oldblueaccord]

Pull up the Rockauto.com sight they list starters for manual and automatic cars. I don't know what the difference is really but they may have inadvertently been switched.

[Dr_Snooz]

They say "if it tests fine, we can't exchange or return it". Pain the a$$.

So make it test bad. Or, just go to Autozone and buy another one, then return the Kragen one to Autozone. Make sure the stickers and paint are the same before you do it. Chances are they will be identical though. I did that with an alternator. The alternators were exactly the same.

[conozo]

Old thread but im having this same issue. Only addition is that with a cold engine the cars idle is loopy (up and down) and always has been since the conversion, after driving it a mile its fine. I do have a new radiator cap coming in the mail because my OG ones rubber is all cracked and i feel like its letting air in the system as the engine cools down. We shall see if that fixes the loopy idle. As for the starting, its like the engine fires once instantly just enough to knock the starter off so that the starter isn't engaged. Its been getting worse as the weather has gotten below 30 degrees.

First thing ill check is the main relay, i did solder it when doing the conversion because it had cracks in the solder. Already replaced the TW sensor. The dizzy is a big? I really dont know anything about it but will check the ground wire as mentioned above since just about every one of my issues after the conversion has been related to bad grounds.

[Oldblueaccord]

thats how my main relay went the sprak side was bad, the fuel pump side always seemed to work. The car would start/fire off flare up the RPMS and die.

[conozo]

Replaced the main relay and no difference. Now onto the distributor diagnostics.

[conozo]

Replaced the ICM ignition control module and no difference. I was only 30% sure that was going to fix my issue because i was able to push start the car, but i am hoping it will fix the loopy/rough idle at startup. I took the starter to AutoZone and had them test it, it passed but they are replacing it anyways under warranty. Will have the new starter in tomorrow. That will be the 3rd remanufactured starter in 1 year since the original one died after 31 good years.

That ICM is a complete mystery on how it works to me. Unlike all other modern ICMs this has no wiring harness that plugs into it. How does it work or know what to do?

[conozo]

Replaced the starter and it fixed the issue. This Duralast remanufactured starter sounds way better than all the other starters ever did.

[Oldblueaccord]

Replaced the starter and it fixed the issue. This Duralast remanufactured starter sounds way better than all the other starters ever did.

Well that good the starter fixed it.

Mine had this weird kick back thing like its bound or something, I might try and see if Orilleys will do anything for me.

I need to double check my timing isn't to far advanced.

[conozo]

Well that good the starter fixed it.

Mine had this weird kick back thing like its bound or something, I might try and see if Orilleys will do anything for me.

I need to double check my timing isn't to far advanced.

My other two "new" starters had a weird grinding noise from the beginning or they would crank a couple times then sound like it was binding up occasionally. Hard to describe but it was not a pleasant sound at all and so random and unpredictable.

[ShiRen]

Maybe the other starter needed shimmed out?

[conozo]

Maybe the other starter needed shimmed out?

Possibly, but i think the real answer is that these remanufactured parts are junk. I think this starter is good probably most likely due to the fact that maybe it wasn't actually bad when the previous person returned their core in the first place.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well that good the starter fixed it.

Mine had this weird kick back thing like its bound or something, I might try and see if Orilleys will do anything for me.

I need to double check my timing isn't to far advanced.

At the 58 second mark I start it and it kicks back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaRWkT449k4

[conozo]

I think your kickback is caused by irratic spark. Which also causes your rpm guage to go up so high when starting. Replacing my ICM on the distributor fixed that issue for me. There are forum post about the tach going crazy when starting that you'll want to read to verify.

I bought mine on eBay for I think $38.

[Oldblueaccord]

I got one I might try it. I changed batteries as well a while back.