webers or fuel injection?

[stephensimmons]

I have an 89 accord lxi. Would it be better to leave it fuel injection or change it to dual webers or dellortos for real performance?

[Joay]

Leave it.

[lostforawhile]

I have an 89 accord lxi. Would it be better to leave it fuel injection or change it to dual webers or dellortos for real performance?

webbers!!:D sorry i'm a carb guy

[2ndGenGuy]

Wouldn't be that much work to convert it to carbs, but. You'd be best off, if you like the idea of sidedrafts, to get yourself a Rowland DCOE manifold, and bolt some throttle bodies to it. Probably will want some ability to tune it after that, which is where it can get tricky. But you should see some good results from that.

If you stick with the fuel injection, you just have to do some minimal wiring to make it tunable (OBD-I harnesses are available for purchase from LX-Incredible). Or if you go with carbs, you'll be doing quite a bit of wiring removal, and will have to swap out the fuel pump, relays and all that shit. Doesn't really seem worth the effort if the car is already fuel injected.

[geej07]

if you wanted to trade efi for carb i would trade you! haha i want efi my 87 was efi an it would run circles around my 88 lx

[lostforawhile]

if you wanted to trade efi for carb i would trade you! haha i want efi my 87 was efi an it would run circles around my 88 lx

these cars with aftermarket carbs are a lot different then the pathetic factory carb, I mean i'm trying to put my car back together right now, as soon as I finish the dual carb setup I know it will be better then the restrictive factory carb. I'm going old school, big carbs,cam,headers etc. gives a car more soul in my opinion. There are people on here that have done dual sidedraft webbers and sidedraft bike carbs, and loved the result. If you just want to get in it and drive it every day with almost never opening the hood, go fuel injection, if you like tinkering with your car and like working under the hood, plus that sound that only a carbed car with a cam can produce, go carbs.

[stephensimmons]

Whats the price of the Rawland intake?

[markmdz89hatch]

Whats the price of the Rawland intake?

That price will vary greatly depending on who you ask.

I don't want to take a sale away from anyone publicly, and I do want you to get the best price and service possible. As such, shoot me a PM and I'll give you some tips on it.

To be honest, if you're considering the idea of DCOE's I'd absolutely love to see another guy do this setup. There are VERY few of them out there, and it's nice to see someone else join this little DCOE powered 3G club. Something else you might consider is going ITB. It's like the fuel injected version of a quad carb setup on a 4 banger.

...and yeah, as others have said, if you stayed with fuel injection, I'd do the OBD-1 conversion to really be able to extract some serious power out of this motor (relatively speaking).

[geej07]

is itb the 4 carb set up? can we get a 4 carb set up? if i could get one of those i would leave my car carb. i just gotta do something i feel like im driven a gokart!

[lostforawhile]

is itb the 4 carb set up? can we get a 4 carb set up? if i could get one of those i would leave my car carb. i just gotta do something i feel like im driven a gokart!

it's been done not sure where the pictures are

[Edison Carasio]

these cars with aftermarket carbs are a lot different then the pathetic factory carb, I mean i'm trying to put my car back together right now, as soon as I finish the dual carb setup I know it will be better then the restrictive factory carb. I'm going old school, big carbs,cam,headers etc. gives a car more soul in my opinion. There are people on here that have done dual sidedraft webbers and sidedraft bike carbs, and loved the result. If you just want to get in it and drive it every day with almost never opening the hood, go fuel injection, if you like tinkering with your car and like working under the hood, plus that sound that only a carbed car with a cam can produce, go carbs.


I agree with the above to an extent. I don't like having to mess with carbs on small engines, so I wanna convert to fuel injected. However, if I wanted to do a big V8 muscle car build, I would do the dual carbs on it.

I think the Accord is best off as fuel injected.

[stephensimmons]

Yes it can be done. just isnt cheap......but then what is?!

[Hauntd ca3]

twin dcoe or dhla carbs would def be a cool thing.
set up right by someone who knows the stuff, they are nearly as good as a oem efi set up.
they do still require occasional tweaking but very little, just balancing really.
they do also have the look fucking cool factor which efi will never have.
but,as said before, prob the best way would be itbs.
a set of black top 20 valve 4age one would be great as they are bout 46mm throats and there are plenty about. modify a dcoe or dhla manifold to suit them, a decent aftermarket ecu and you are set.
yuo would get away with the factory efi fuel pump and even the toyota injectors for bit until you stuck big cam in it.

[Bass Man]

There are upgrades and mods for EFI to get a lot more out of them. I want EFI just for that reason, plus there is a possibility for turbo with EFI.

[turabaka]

these cars with aftermarket carbs are a lot different then the pathetic factory carb, I mean i'm trying to put my car back together right now, as soon as I finish the dual carb setup I know it will be better then the restrictive factory carb. I'm going old school, big carbs,cam,headers etc. gives a car more soul in my opinion. There are people on here that have done dual sidedraft webbers and sidedraft bike carbs, and loved the result. If you just want to get in it and drive it every day with almost never opening the hood, go fuel injection, if you like tinkering with your car and like working under the hood, plus that sound that only a carbed car with a cam can produce, go carbs.

agreed. Weber with a 272 cam sounds sick. I love being able to hear the carb suck in air.

[Bass Man]

I love hearing the intake louder than the exhaust!

[2ndGenGuy]

Shit the short ram on my LX-i Coupe sounds great. The car is bone stock and it really howls up in the top end, much more than my single Weber ever did.

[Rendon LX-i]

Stick with the FI. do a cam/cam gear/i/h/e and catback/ OBD1/ intake mani and youll be set bro honestly not worth it. I hate carb NO OFFENSE lol.....thats why i didnt get a car on craiglist for the fact half the 3geez hURR are Carbed and half them said has carb problems wont start. BUT its complety up to you and what you want to do with your car.

[88Accord-DX]

Normally, you don't take a EFI accord down to a carbed model. It's not worth it & there is to much involved.. The majority take the carbed ones to a EFI version.... As mentioned, you have much more potential bringing it up to OBD-1 level & will have much more possibilities in the overall picture...

I've seen but a few DCOE carbed accords with velocity tubes/stacks & know that is was pretty penny. It depends on how deep your pockets are for that project, along with the determination...

[stephensimmons]

well i figure a strong bottom end with a port, pollished, and o'ringed head felpro head gasket, pacesetter exhaust from the header to the tail pipe :tongue: and a msd two step retarder the first stage for my 35hp shot of nos and the second step for my 135hp :rocket: shot hooked to my progressive controller and of coarse a good clutch! Not sure of what cam to use yet though if i go this way an im pretty sure i am.

[A20A1]

Obd-1 conversion, intake, cam, exhaust...

but if you like carbs like some of us here, they are a lot of fun and do offer good performance.

[stephensimmons]

Anyone by any chance know where i can get a adjustable cam gear?

[turabaka]

Anyone by any chance know where i can get a adjustable cam gear?

The bisimoto group buy. That's currently the only way to get one unless you go custom made.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70824

[Rollz87civic]

I myself would run carbs but that just me. As a fwe other have side there nothing like the sound of dual or even a single carb.

[guaynabo89]

itb's

aftermarket ecu/ignition.

total cost will probably be around 1500 depending where you get your parts

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah, I was gonna say, ITBs and Sidedraft Webers will pretty much have the same sound. Maybe slightly different due to the chokes in the carburetors and overall lengths of the throttle bodies themselves.

[MessyHonda]

i dont think a stock a20 would make that much power...i think the most you can make is like 140hp with out incressing the compression

[Hauntd ca3]

ultimately the efi is a more adjustable set up and more reliable than carbs.
i do like efi for that reason, but they still dont look as cool as dcoe's or even twin su's as lost's project will show.
i'd still like to know the big fuss on the obd-1 conversion when you can chip an old ph3 or what ever you happen to have

[guaynabo89]

vacuum advance distributor is far from ideal.


power is in the cylinder head. Swap cams get some headwork done along with opening the intake trac into the head and freeing up the exhaust. If block is in good shape could leave that be. Bump in compression to 10.5-11:1 and you'll have a mean na contender.

[stephensimmons]

I was thinking more of 10.0 JE pistons but it wouldnt be hard to have them made to 10.5 or 11.0 sence they have to be made anyway so i guess 11.0 and dual carbs?

[stephensimmons]

and what type of dizzy or ignition?

[2ndGenGuy]

^^ Forget distributors. Just do an EDIS / Megajolt conversion. It's a bit of work, but it's cheap and reliable and far more precise than anything running off the camshaft.

[stephensimmons]

where do i get the parts for the convertion?

[2ndGenGuy]

www.autosportlabs.net <-- all the info for MJLJ is right there.

[cygnus x-1]

If you intend to run with carbs then Megajolt is the way to go. I can modify a crank pulley to add the trigger wheel if you want. I can also make brackets for the crank sensor and the diode circuit for the tach/fuel pump relay. PM me with what you want to do.


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[2ndGenGuy]

^^^ Do get the parts from this guy. Making them yourself is a huge pain, and having his parts makes the EDIS conversion practically a bolt on kit.

[stephensimmons]

Ok thanks for that imfo now i gota get my carb set together then the ignition then ill figure out whats next. damn i dont have much time because may is around the corner!!!!!!! And i still gota rebuild my engine!

[Nafs Asdf]

I think I saw someone selling a rowland manifold and set of DCOE 40's in the market place...

[2ndGenGuy]

I'm pretty sure Lil_Mike bought them.

[Nafs Asdf]

These? (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71764)
Went pretty quick in that case.

[stephensimmons]

Yea i saw them but i wana run dellortos instead or webers. I ran dellortos on my 71 bug and loved them plus there not as cold natured as webers. So i gota peice mine together.

[lostforawhile]

here you go, the ITB setup does exist for the A20 http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326905

[stephensimmons]

OH! MY! GOD!!!!!!!!! :barf:

[stephensimmons]

I think ima get in my truck an not come home till i get the money for those!

[Ichiban]

I want EFI on my truck. Even if it's TBI, I don't care, carbs lick sack. Funniest of all, my truck used to be EFI, if only for a short while.

[stephensimmons]

Ok i got a question and dont flame me too bad :devil:! Why they say you cant use your stock injection when useing the IBT setup? If you hook all the sensors, wire it, and got reprogrammable fuel why wouldnt it work:confused: Anyone know :help:

[Bass Man]

You could make it work. I've seen an intake with injectors and such that was called ITB. I think it was for a B16, and H22.

[cygnus x-1]

Ok i got a question and dont flame me too bad :devil:! Why they say you cant use your stock injection when useing the IBT setup? If you hook all the sensors, wire it, and got reprogrammable fuel why wouldnt it work:confused: Anyone know :help:


This is a good question. It won't work because the MAP (or manifold vacuum) signal you get form ITBs is very different from what a common plenum manifold would produce. The ECU uses the MAP signal to indicate the load on the engine and therefore the required fuel. Common plenum manifolds tend to produce a strong (low MAP) and fairly smooth signal, while ITBs tend to produce a weak (high MAP) and lumpy signal. This means the ECU won't get a good indication on load and therefore the fueling will be incorrect.

There is a neat little electrical circuit that the Megasquirt guys came up with that cleans up the MAP signal from ITBs pretty well, but it still probably wouldn't be close enough to a common plenum signal to allow a stock ECU to work very well. It would be interesting to try though.


EDIT: If you have programmable fuel you might be able to get it to work but it depends on the particular ITBs and your tuning capability. Larger ITBs will be harder to tune right than smaller ones and a piggyback controller might not have enough adjustment flexibility. To really know if it will work you would just have to try it.
The other issue is ignition timing. The vacuum advance won't work right. You could live without it but throttle response will likely suffer, as well as fuel mileage.


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[stephensimmons]

This is a good question. It won't work because the MAP (or manifold vacuum) signal you get form ITBs is very different from what a common plenum manifold would produce. The ECU uses the MAP signal to indicate the load on the engine and therefore the required fuel. Common plenum manifolds tend to produce a strong (low MAP) and fairly smooth signal, while ITBs tend to produce a weak (high MAP) and lumpy signal. This means the ECU won't get a good indication on load and therefore the fueling will be incorrect.

There is a neat little electrical circuit that the Megasquirt guys came up with that cleans up the MAP signal from ITBs pretty well, but it still probably wouldn't be close enough to a common plenum signal to allow a stock ECU to work very well. It would be interesting to try though.


EDIT: If you have programmable fuel you might be able to get it to work but it depends on the particular ITBs and your tuning capability. Larger ITBs will be harder to tune right than smaller ones and a piggyback controller might not have enough adjustment flexibility. To really know if it will work you would just have to try it.
The other issue is ignition timing. The vacuum advance won't work right. You could live without it but throttle response will likely suffer, as well as fuel mileage.


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I thought about trying it but thats alota money for it to not work at all but then im very curious about it to! Ive made things work that people has said wouldnt before (I guess thats where some of the gray hair came from!) so i dont know.... I mite still try it. Ive seen the ITBs on ebay for 599.00 for the b16/b18c5 and i know it could be modified to fit the a20. If i lose any more sleep over it ima have to try it!:idea:

[Vanilla Sky]

I'm a fan of bike ITBs and megasquirt. Seems to be a very winning combo for not much coin.

[cygnus x-1]

I thought about trying it but thats alota money for it to not work at all but then im very curious about it to! Ive made things work that people has said wouldnt before (I guess thats where some of the gray hair came from!) so i dont know.... I mite still try it. Ive seen the ITBs on ebay for 599.00 for the b16/b18c5 and i know it could be modified to fit the a20. If i lose any more sleep over it ima have to try it!:idea:


I've seen those and the price is crazy cheap. However, they have 48mm throttle plates, which is HUGE for an A20. I tried some GSXR TBs (46mm throttles) on mine and it was impossible to keep them balanced right. So the idle was all over the place and the throttle response was way too sensitive. 40mm throttles would be much better and will support up to 200HP.


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[stephensimmons]

I've seen those and the price is crazy cheap. However, they have 48mm throttle plates, which is HUGE for an A20. I tried some GSXR TBs (46mm throttles) on mine and it was impossible to keep them balanced right. So the idle was all over the place and the throttle response was way too sensitive. 40mm throttles would be much better and will support up to 200HP.


C|

That figures!

[cygnus x-1]

That figures!


Doesn't it? I was excited when I first found out about them. But then I read the details. :crying:


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[stephensimmons]

Doesn't it? I was excited when I first found out about them. But then I read the details. :crying:


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:uh: Now I gota come up with another idea!