Fabricated suspension arms

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Has anyone on here tried building their own rear suspension arms to run an easier to find disk brake spindle, or a spindle with better aftermarket options than the SEi version?

What about fabbing fronts and rears to fit a whole new lug pattern or to mimic a car with full aftermarket support? The front would be harder as you would need to make sure the axles were compatible, but should still be doable.

The only incentive to doing the front would be the use of unmodified rotors and maybe 5-lug wheels if you wanted, the front brake setup that members here have developed seems pretty nice. The rear setup 3geez members have developed seems like it could use some stream lining though.

[LX-incredible]

Our rear suspension is vastly different from any civic or integra. The closest possibility would be a legend or 93 accord se. Aftermarket for those is worse anyway.

The rear pad size for the SE-i is the same as a 88-96 civic, most integras, and 88-91 preludes. Some rear upgrade kits and larger rotors fit as well.

[Oldblueaccord]

I only so far have adapted the front Integra Type R front brake rotor,calipers, and pads.

As far as the rears I think Legend master is running front civic rotors on the rears. Check on his setup-build threads.

My only idea is to try and use the drum knuckles and adapt something to that since there popular. But I have not done a thing about it but get all the stock parts.

wp

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I've read Legend_Master's brake threads, that is what I was referencing in the original post. The front setup seems flawless, but the rear requires you to first find an SEi at the junkyard, which may not be easy for everyone. The idea of converting the drum uprights to disk is intriguing though.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Does anyone know what Honda calls the front hub? I can't seem to find them on Rockauto or google.

I am referring to the part that holds the wheels studs that the brake rotor sits on.

[Joay]

Edit: wrong end.

Not the knuckle (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1988&catcgry3=2DR+LXI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=FRONT+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DISK)?

[2drSE-i]

Also called the spindle. Rockauto won't list either of these parts though, because they are unnecessary to replace. Unless your trying to upgrade, but they aren't really worried about you drum brakers :)

[LX-incredible]

Does anyone know what Honda calls the front hub? I can't seem to find them on Rockauto or google.

I am referring to the part that holds the wheels studs that the brake rotor sits on.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1166947,parttype,1636

TIMKEN Part # 518505
FWD; Kit = Seal, Studded Spindle, Nut, Bearing; Front

TIMKEN Part # 513033
FWD; Rear

The wheel hubs are the same for all 86-89 accords, disc or drum.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Thanks, all I saw was rear, I seriously searched a bunch of different models for over an hour and found nothing.


http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1166947,parttype,1636

TIMKEN Part # 518505
FWD; Kit = Seal, Studded Spindle, Nut, Bearing; Front

TIMKEN Part # 513033
FWD; Rear

The wheel hubs are the same for all 86-89 accords, disc or drum.

My first upgrade project is going to be trying to find a simpler disk conversion for drum folks, and I am researching the cost and benefits of doing a 5 lug conversion as well.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Does anyone have a pic of the SEi rear knuckle next to one of the drum rear knuckles? The diagrams here show them looking pretty much the same, which I know cannot be true.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1988&catcgry3=2DR+LXI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DRUM+%28DX%2C+LXI%29

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+SEI&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DISK+%28SEI%29

[LX-incredible]

The only way to do this is to make a plate that will bolt in place of the drum backing plate and have threaded holes and a recess for the caliper. The plate will need to be pretty thick (at least 3/4"), have a recess for the mounting surface on the spindle, and have some shaved off of where the caliper bracket mounts. The mounting surface for the caliper bracket would need to be at the same level as the mounting surface for the backing plate/dustshield on the spindle.

It's definitely possible but it would be much more cost effective to find a set of SE-i spindles. There wont be enough interest on here to offset the machining set up costs either. I personally have 4 sets and have seen many more. They're not that hard to come by.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I kind of figured I would use the backing plate mounting location, I have ideas on how to make the plate simple, but until I get my car or at least see pics of the stock setup my ideas are not worth putting out there yet.

Why do you say that they bracket would need to be 3/4"?

From my few days on here I think that if the plate could be made simply enough it would at least beat the dizzy adapters in units sold. (I can't believe I read that whole damn thread)

Even if the final product is not marketable I am confident I could get it to work for my own car.

[cygnus x-1]

Interesting project. Just from reading this so far and looking at the diagrams, my guess is that it probably would be cheaper to just get the SEi spindles. But if you do have some ideas for making some sort of adapter I would be happy to help with simplifying the design to make it cheaper/easier to make; regardless of whether or not you ever have any parts made (be me or anyone else).


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[stat1K]

From my few days on here I think that if the plate could be made simply enough it would at least beat the dizzy adapters in units sold. (I can't believe I read that whole damn thread)


i'll believe this when i see a screen shot of the paypal account that the money's been paid into lol... i'd be interested in seeing the design and finished product.

how were you figuring on using the existing brake cables or were you planning on using the sei brake cables?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Do you mean emergency brake cables? If so, then the plan so far is just to use SE-i ones, I think they were like $20 or less on Rockauto, but I would probably look into trying to make the stockers work, I doubt they would though.

Does anyone have a pic of the drum brake knuckle?

Are the knuckles cast or forged? If they are forged then I'm thinking that at the very least the bracket could be welded on for my own car, and maybe sell the lasercut brackets to folks who have welders at their disposal.

Again, this is all just brainstorming, I am confident that it can be done, but my ideas on how are all based on info I've gathered from the internet. I should have my car by the end of next weekend, that is when the fun will really start.

[MessyHonda]

I've read Legend_Master's brake threads, that is what I was referencing in the original post. The front setup seems flawless, but the rear requires you to first find an SEi at the junkyard, which may not be easy for everyone. The idea of converting the drum uprights to disk is intriguing though.

its not that hard...can be done with the right tools in a couple of hours...i did mine the day after x-mas in the cold driveway...haha
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/Messybone/LX-i/DSCF2494Small.jpg

[stat1K]

i'm sure he knows HOW to swap brakes, hes saying it's hard to FIND said brakes. He's also talking about using the existing drum hardware so you don't have to find the sei rear trailing arm and brake assembly, so did you use your existing drum knuckles and fabricate a bracket to go disk brakes messy? (read sarcasm).

i love how this is the millionth time you've posted what you've done to your car with little to no regard as to what the OP is talking about.

as for my question, yes i was talking about the e-brake cables. I would avise against rockauto's brake cables as from what i've seen they are pieces of shit. if you could find stock ones that would be ideal in my opinion but i'm not even sure if they're available from the dealer anymore as the 1989 is now more than 20 years old. It's my impression that the dealer will no longer order parts from japan when the car is over 20 years old. I've been told this by several dealers, in which case the rock auto ones may be the only resort.

[Oldblueaccord]

I would lean towards a setup thats easy and affordable to find parts for. I don't think the SEi rear calipers are that cheap without looking up anything.

As far as how many would be interested hard to say. I think I had had 2 pms about my front brake setup in the what 3 years I have had it posted so me getting brackets made or putting a kit together would be a not for profit deal.


wp

[Harrison_Bergeron]

My starting point is going to be to try and get 2g (same as non-abs 4g?) Integra rear brakes, rotors and calipers, to bolt up. We use the same rear hub, and the wheels from an Integra fit a 3g, so it seems like rotor offset should be easy to work with.

First I am going to try and devise a bracket that is just a flat laser cut piece. That seems like a long shot, so plan B is to try and make the bracket just a flat piece with bungs for caliper spacing welded one. I have a plan C and D that involve bent base pieces and bungs.

The prototype will just be made in my garage from scrap and will go on my car, if people are interested I would then start worrying about laser cutting and a jig to production weld them.

[LX-incredible]

Good to luck trying to weld to the casting. You will not be able to use a simple flat bracket without spacing out the rotor or using a different one. With a different rotor you may run into the issue of caliper to wheel clearance...

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I wasn't sure if the stock knuckle was cast or forged, some pics looked forged, but cast seems more logical.

Shouldn't the caliper to wheel clearance be fine, if an Integra uses the same hub, and a 3g can run an integra wheel, then shouldn't that mean a stock integra caliper on a stock integra rotor should clear the wheel fine? The issue seems like it should be the clearance on the back side, whether the rotor contacts any thing on the knuckle side.

[nswst8]

Does anyone have a pic of the SEi rear knuckle next to one of the drum rear knuckles? The diagrams here show them looking pretty much the same, which I know cannot be true.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1988&catcgry3=2DR+LXI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DRUM+%28DX%2C+LXI%29

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+SEI&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DISK+%28SEI%29

http://www.hondapartsdeals.com/hpa_parts_list.php?vin=&Label%5BProductID%5D=ACCORD&Label%5BYearID%5D=1989&Label%5BDoorID%5D=4&Label%5BGradeID%5D=LXI&Label%5BAreaID%5D=KA&Label%5BTransmissionID%5D=5MT&Label%5BSectionID%5D=CHASSIS&Label%5BIllustrationGroupID%5D=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DRUM&ProductID=5&YearID=28&DoorID=4&GradeID=72&AreaID=2&TransmissionID=3&SectionID=6&IllustrationGroupID=5484

[Harrison_Bergeron]

http://www.hondapartsdeals.com/hpa_parts_list.php?vin=&Label%5BProductID%5D=ACCORD&Label%5BYearID%5D=1989&Label%5BDoorID%5D=4&Label%5BGradeID%5D=LXI&Label%5BAreaID%5D=KA&Label%5BTransmissionID%5D=5MT&Label%5BSectionID%5D=CHASSIS&Label%5BIllustrationGroupID%5D=REAR+KNUCKLE+-+BRAKE+DRUM&ProductID=5&YearID=28&DoorID=4&GradeID=72&AreaID=2&TransmissionID=3&SectionID=6&IllustrationGroupID=5484

This is promising, in that pic it looks like the tab for mounting the caliper on the SEi is flush with the holes for the drum backing plate/dust shield. This makes my ideas look even more realistic. I can't wait to get my damn car.

On the SEi, does the caliper bracket mount on the tire side, or body side of the tabs on the knuckle? In other words, is the knuckle threaded for the caliper bracket bolt, or is the caliper bracket threaded. In the diagram below, what does bolt #34(top right) thread into?

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+SEI&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=REAR+BRAKE+CALIPER

[Ichiban]

I think I should point out that the 2nd gen Accord drum knuckles have a factory, bolt on disc system available to them.

The 2g Prelude and 2g Accord share the same rear knuckles, drum or disc. So the Prelude disc's bolt to the Accord knuckles. Comprendez?

If Honda already made up a bracket to do the conversion on the 2nd gen, why can't you do it on the 3g? And it certainly doesn't have to be .750" thick, either. Drum brake backing plate is, what, .050"? :nuts:

Hell, maybe the 3g disc and drum knuckles are the same, and nobody noticed.

And nobody is going to be doing anything stupid, like welding cast, either.:nuts::nuts:

[Oldblueaccord]

This is promising, in that pic it looks like the tab for mounting the caliper on the SEi is flush with the holes for the drum backing plate/dust shield. This makes my ideas look even more realistic. I can't wait to get my damn car.

On the SEi, does the caliper bracket mount on the tire side, or body side of the tabs on the knuckle? In other words, is the knuckle threaded for the caliper bracket bolt, or is the caliper bracket threaded. In the diagram below, what does bolt #34(top right) thread into?

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+SEI&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=REAR+BRAKE+CALIPER

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/936/img1244d.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/img1244d.jpg/)

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/354/img1245z.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/img1245z.jpg/)


http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4587/img1246n.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/img1246n.jpg/)

rough idea of the hole spacing etc.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54992

also have you read this threads. its got some info in it as well its in the FAQ section.


wp

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I read that thread, that was my next step, figuring out whether building the bracket for an integra caliper, for simplification of replacing parts, would limit upgrade-ability. The integra does have a large aftermarket, so that is a plus, but I need to find out whether there is an integra guru of Legend_Master's caliber that has figured out what oe rear rotors and calipers are a cheap upgrade to their stock setup.

The way I want to do the adapter I can always just change the measurements to work with whatever rotor and caliper my heart desires, for example, I could make the Legend calipers work with the 10.3" Civic rotors and not have to buy those fancy ones L_M is running.

Edit: Thanks for the pics, I think I have a solid design working in my head, now I just need to figure out what rotors and calipers, then start measuring, cutting, and drilling. At this point the only issue is gonna be the parking brake cable.

[LX-incredible]

I think I should point out that the 2nd gen Accord drum knuckles have a factory, bolt on disc system available to them.

The 2g Prelude and 2g Accord share the same rear knuckles, drum or disc. So the Prelude disc's bolt to the Accord knuckles. Comprendez?

If Honda already made up a bracket to do the conversion on the 2nd gen, why can't you do it on the 3g? And it certainly doesn't have to be .750" thick, either. Drum brake backing plate is, what, .050"? :nuts:

Hell, maybe the 3g disc and drum knuckles are the same, and nobody noticed.

And nobody is going to be doing anything stupid, like welding cast, either.:nuts::nuts:

The thickness would be needed to set the caliper back where it should be. The tabs that the sei calipers bolt to are the same level as the surface that the backing plate/dust shield attaches. There's not nearly enough room to add a plate of adequate thickness between the mounting surface and the caliper. Fuck welding to the spindles.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

For my bracket to maintain the required flush mounting surface I am planning for two pieces lap welded together, the first would bolt to where the backing plate used be, the the second would be lap welded to the back of that and would create the required flush mounting surface.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/GreenTruckGuy200/bracket.jpg

[LX-incredible]

That looks promising. Let us know how it turns out and what calipers you decide on.

[Ichiban]

For my bracket to maintain the required flush mounting surface I am planning for two pieces lap welded together, the first would bolt to where the backing plate used be, the the second would be lap welded to the back of that and would create the required flush mounting surface.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/GreenTruckGuy200/bracket.jpg

Instead of welding things together, you should get a plate of double the required thickness, then mill a face to sit up against the caliper. Then mill the other side to place the caliper properly. One piece of material, just like OE.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Milling costs more, welding I can do in my garage. If people do want them being able to get them laser cut, and then taking 5 minutes to weld them up in a jig would make them way cheaper than needing them milled by a shop.

What calipers and rotors do you think I should go with? I think the front runners are either stock integra for both, or the EP disk and Legend caliper. Integra parts will have aftermarket direct bolt on upgrades available, the EP/Legend setup probably wouldn't need much upgrading, but would likely limit wheel diameter.

Bad news though, it looks like my first, second, and third 3g choices sold yesterday, so now I have to wait for another one to pop up before I can move forward.

[lostforawhile]

Milling costs more, welding I can do in my garage. If people do want them being able to get them laser cut, and then taking 5 minutes to weld them up in a jig would make them way cheaper than needing them milled by a shop.

What calipers and rotors do you think I should go with? I think the front runners are either stock integra for both, or the EP disk and Legend caliper. Integra parts will have aftermarket direct bolt on upgrades available, the EP/Legend setup probably wouldn't need much upgrading, but would likely limit wheel diameter.

Bad news though, it looks like my first, second, and third 3g choices sold yesterday, so now I have to wait for another one to pop up before I can move forward.you are talking about your brakes, i'm not sure i would want a weld right there under a panic stop,

[Oldblueaccord]

I read that thread, that was my next step, figuring out whether building the bracket for an integra caliper, for simplification of replacing parts, would limit upgrade-ability. The integra does have a large aftermarket, so that is a plus, but I need to find out whether there is an integra guru of Legend_Master's caliber that has figured out what oe rear rotors and calipers are a cheap upgrade to their stock setup.

The way I want to do the adapter I can always just change the measurements to work with whatever rotor and caliper my heart desires, for example, I could make the Legend calipers work with the 10.3" Civic rotors and not have to buy those fancy ones L_M is running.

Edit: Thanks for the pics, I think I have a solid design working in my head, now I just need to figure out what rotors and calipers, then start measuring, cutting, and drilling. At this point the only issue is gonna be the parking brake cable.

I would go with

1. Caliper Bore size.... keep the proportioning close to stock

2. Cost/availability something you could get at a junkyard pretty easy were cheap here or if you want buy new without sending away to the moon for them

3. Something with an E-brake setup. Pretty much a must although I drive vehicles with out a mechanical E brake its a must have in most states.

4. Something that fits under a 15" inch rim.


wp

I made a comment above about profitability and when I read it I saw that I meant for my front brake setup not for what you are doing.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I agree that a junkyard caliper would be ideal, but I need help deciding on what would be best. The integra calipers cover a pretty large year range, which should be good, but the civic guys probably grab that stuff up quick. Also, I like the idea of making the 10.3" EP rotor swap work, but I am unclear on how well a caliper meant for a smaller rotor(integra) will work on a larger rotor. I know that the diameter alone will be beneficial for performance, but will pad or rotor wear suffer from the smaller pads? Should I just stick with the target of making the rear full integra, and worry about an upgrade bracket later?

What is the problem with the Rockauto e-brake cables? Are they better than nothing, or a waste completely? Bolt on brackets and cables would streamline that whole issue.

[stat1K]

any more progress on this?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I still haven't found a car, when I do this is going to be the first upgrade project.

[cygnus x-1]

Milling costs more, welding I can do in my garage. If people do want them being able to get them laser cut, and then taking 5 minutes to weld them up in a jig would make them way cheaper than needing them milled by a shop.


Making that part from a single piece of stock will be expensive. Not only the labor, but the material itself. It would be much cheaper to join two smaller pieces together. If there is enough overlap you could bolt the two pieces together instead of welding. Welding would also work but fasteners are cheap and easy. Either will be plenty strong if done right. Consider that these are the rear brakes and only apply maybe 40% of the total braking for the car.


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[stat1K]

yeah i still don't like the idea of anything with the potential to break under extreme circumstances, this is why i don't buy american cars ;) (had to)

i just want to see if we can get this to completion, i know if cygnus and lx-incredible are involved in the process at all it should get done.

[cygnus x-1]

yeah i still don't like the idea of anything with the potential to break under extreme circumstances, this is why i don't buy american cars ;) (had to)


LOL! Newer American cars are not so bad.

Bolting the plates together would work just fine. Remember that the calipers themselves (front and rear) are only bolted to the bracket with 2 bolts. And the brackets are bolted to the knuckle with 2 bolts again. Millions of cars are exactly like this and they hold up just fine.



i just want to see if we can get this to completion, i know if cygnus and lx-incredible are involved in the process at all it should get done.

Well, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but a machined part would be completely overkill. I would make it of course if people really wanted it that way.

But, it's all speculation until the design is worked out.


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[Harrison_Bergeron]

Ok, looks like I'm picking up my Black LXi coupe tomorrow. First I have to get it running, registered, and smogged, then I can start the real figuring for this project.

Actually, I can start measuring before all that stuff, but that stuff has to be done before I put money into the brake project.

"We" need to decide what caliper and rotor combo is best. I'd like to do the 10.3" Civic rotor and the Legend caliper, but I think I would need to upgrade the front first, and get larger wheels if I did that, which would push the completion of the project out, and would not be suitable for folks who don't want 15" wheels or larger front brakes.

What rear calipers and rotors do the rest of you want? Comparable to stock SEi/Integra, or big brakes?

[cygnus x-1]

Dredging up this old thread because it resembles something I've recently done to my Prelude, and I'm wondering if it could be applied here. Has anyone done anything further on a rear disc conversion adapter?


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[Oldblueaccord]

I tripped over my SEi stuff a few weeks ago in the garage. I think if I some day goto 17" rims ill do something when I upgrade the fronts.


wp

[cygnus x-1]

I tripped over my SEi stuff a few weeks ago in the garage. I think if I some day goto 17" rims ill do something when I upgrade the fronts.


wp


I should specify, I'm talking about the rear disc conversion, not the rear suspension arms like the name of the thread implies.

Anyway, I reverse engineered the rear caliper mounting plate on my 2g 'lude so that I could fit larger calipers and rotors. I'm using the 262mm Civic SI rotors with 4g Accord calipers. Obviously it wouldn't be a direct fit on the 3g Accords but it looks very similar to the idea HB posted earlier. I'm not all that familiar with the drum setup so I was trolling the old posts to see if I could find some pictures that show how the drum backing plate and wheel cylinder are mounted. Haven't found anything helpful yet.


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[Oldblueaccord]

I thought I had some pictures but ill dig around too.



wp

[cygnus x-1]

So I went to the junkyard yesterday to find a power window switch for my truck. Every Nissan I looked at had the driver side window switch already taken. Lame. :banghead:

But I did get a look at the drum setup on an '88 Accord. Unfortunately I have to conclude that it's not really worth the trouble (for me) to design a disc conversion adapter for this. The adapter plate itself would be easy enough but you also need a debris shield behind the disc, and cutting up the drum plate doesn't look like a great idea. The parking brake cables are too short so you would need to replace those. You could use the existing hard line and just add a soft line to the caliper so at least that would be easy. But by the time you get this stuff made it would cost $200 MINIMUM.


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[rjudgey]

Why would you need a shield? this really doesn't do that much I and I've without shields on pretty much all my cars and never had any issues with stones, if you are planning on rallying maybe but tarmac only driven track car it's just pointless it hinders braking by not allowing them to cool better.

[cygnus x-1]

Why would you need a shield? this really doesn't do that much I and I've without shields on pretty much all my cars and never had any issues with stones, if you are planning on rallying maybe but tarmac only driven track car it's just pointless it hinders braking by not allowing them to cool better.


Well on a track, no, you probably wouldn't need the shields. On regular streets though there is too much gravel and other junk.


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[gp02a0083]

So I went to the junkyard yesterday to find a power window switch for my truck. Every Nissan I looked at had the driver side window switch already taken. Lame. :banghead:

But I did get a look at the drum setup on an '88 Accord. Unfortunately I have to conclude that it's not really worth the trouble (for me) to design a disc conversion adapter for this. The adapter plate itself would be easy enough but you also need a debris shield behind the disc, and cutting up the drum plate doesn't look like a great idea. The parking brake cables are too short so you would need to replace those. You could use the existing hard line and just add a soft line to the caliper so at least that would be easy. But by the time you get this stuff made it would cost $200 MINIMUM.


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At that point your best option would be to find a rear disc setup and convert over

[cygnus x-1]

At that point your best option would be to find a rear disc setup and convert over


Exactly. And I don't have an Accord so there's not much motivation.


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