Megasquirting a A20A3

[cougar97536]

Hey y'all, I am starting to swap an A20A3 from an 88 LXI into my 88DX Sedan. I am currently trying to make sure that my wiring diagram looks feasible, especially the way I want to wire the injector resistor pack into the injectors. Can you guys take a look at it, and tell me if you think it should work? Darn, I can't post images yet... here I am going to post two bunk posts here... sorry about this in advance...

[cougar97536]

Here is the first blank one...

[cougar97536]

and this should be the last one... so I can post a picture of my diagram... and some of the car too...

[cougar97536]

Here is what I think my wiring should look like... what do y'all think? I have ommited the factory wiring for the stuff I am not changing... IE starter, and alternator... I plan to leave the bottom half of my engine harrness alone, only add what I need to in a separate harness about the existing one.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8840/wiringformsharness.jpg [/url]

The Lucky Car that is getting all this attention:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1029/img0489resized.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/img0489resized.jpg/)
BTW thats my house in the background... don't you love how they still havent finished painting it after a year? ;)

Here is the Engine Just the way I got it from the wrecking yard I just LOVED the blue loom on there ;)(Pulled the whole harness off later that night, and did the water pump, oil pan seal, and timing belt, plus adjusting the valves):
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4369/img0464resized.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/img0464resized.jpg/)

[cygnus x-1]

Here is what I think my wiring should look like... what do y'all think? I have ommited the factory wiring for the stuff I am not changing... IE starter, and alternator... I plan to leave the bottom half of my engine harrness alone, only add what I need to in a separate harness about the existing one.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8840/wiringformsharness.jpg (http://www.example.com)


Yeah, that looks right. Except I would put injectors 1/4 on one bank and 2/3 on the other. It might not make a big difference but it should run a little smoother this way, because of how the injections are timed and the firing order. Also, when you configure the MS in Megatune/TunerStudio, set the number of injections per cycle to "4" and the injector staging to "alternating". The default is 2-alt which is fine, but 4-alt will run a little smoother and make tuning the acceleration enrichment easier.







Here is the Engine Just the way I got it from the wrecking yard I just LOVED the blue loom on there ;)(Pulled the whole harness off later that night, and did the water pump, oil pan seal, and timing belt, plus adjusting the valves):
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4369/img0464resized.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/img0464resized.jpg/)


Don't you know? The "performance" vacuum hoses get you like an extra 5HP. :rice: :rofl:



C|

[cougar97536]

Bump, and a pic of what is being replaced...

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1741/img0477resized.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/img0477resized.jpg/)

This thing uses oil like it is going out of style... I have no Idea what the previous owner did to her to make here this way... she only has 256,000 miles on the clock. The car uses like 3 quarts a week, and since it doesn't leave any serious drips, I conclude that it must be burning it all. The blow by is so bad, that she needs an air filter every week and a half too... So I thought it was time for an upgrade.
Have a good one, and if you can't do that, have a great one...

[2ndGenGuy]

Sweet! This looks like a fun project. Keep us updated! I also love the 2g hubcaps on the 3g!

[carotman]

Cool project but I would stick with the OEM EFI setup :D

[Vanilla Sky]

That new motor looks clean.

These cars have been 'squirted before. Contact cygnus and see how he can help out. He's done it and can help out a lot.

[cougar97536]

Thanks y'all... I am not going with the factory EFI because 1, I really hate all the vacum lines, and two my car didn't come with EFI, and to make it work with the factory computer I would have to swap almost every wire in the car. I also don't have a complete factory harness to use.
Thanks cygnus I will be sure to set-up my squirt the way you suggested. Thanks for your time. Here is the fixed diagram... this looks right now correct?
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8840/wiringformsharness.jpg (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/wiringformsharness.jpg/)


I actually thought that those covered lines where worth 10 ponies... guess I was a little off ;).
Does anyone know if the vacuum control box, either under the seat or the black box in the bay controls the fuel pump, or coil power? Thanks for all the help-encouragement so far.
Have a good one...

[2ndGenGuy]

So, am I correct in reading that two injectors are fired simultaneously... sort of like a... um... "wasted fuel" setup? lol That would be batch firing I take it?

[cougar97536]

That is correct, It is a batch fire system, meaning that two injectors are fired at the same time. This isn't really too much of an issue much above idle, and there is now support from mega squirt to run full sequential fuel injection, it just requires a lot of extra work at this point. I plan to eventually move to a MS3 and that should have support for it right out of the box, along with full coil on plug support in the stock configuration.
Thanks for the interest everyone... Don't have too much fun...
I am off to take a final... :( I hate finals...

[cougar97536]

Ok... just finished that final... I think it went pretty well, now back to the project ;) does anyone know what the lbs/hr rating is for stock LXI injectors? Thanks for your interest y'all!

[2ndGenGuy]

Does the stock ECU run a batch fire setup as well? I've been trying to figure this out for a while. I've never could figure out how people ran a Multiport injection system on the older Civics off of a dual-port ECU by adding a couple wires. I guess if it was batch-fire, then that would make plenty of sense.

[cougar97536]

To the best of my knowledge, which I have just acquired over the last few days,the stock ECU runs a sequential set-up. This is the reason there are three sensors in the distributor, even though the stock ECU doesn't control timing at all. It lets the computer figure out when to inject fuel for each cylinder. Did that help clear it up? I just like everyone being on the same sheet of music... otherwise you get some NASTY stuff... ;)

[2ndGenGuy]

Makes total sense! Thx! :)

[cygnus x-1]

Thanks y'all... I am not going with the factory EFI because 1, I really hate all the vacum lines, and two my car didn't come with EFI, and to make it work with the factory computer I would have to swap almost every wire in the car. I also don't have a complete factory harness to use.


That was why I did it too. I started with carbs, which were ok, but I really wanted some sort of fuel injection system that could also control timing as well. The factory ECU doesn't control timing, so why bother? That's where all the real power gains are.



Thanks cygnus I will be sure to set-up my squirt the way you suggested. Thanks for your time. Here is the fixed diagram... this looks right now correct?
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8840/wiringformsharness.jpg (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/wiringformsharness.jpg/)



Not quite. Swap #3 and #4 and you have it. If you have any other questions/problems/etc. feel free to ask away. I'm not sure I want to admit how many hours and gallons of fuel I've burned up messing with this stuff. It's just so addicting!




I actually thought that those covered lines where worth 10 ponies... guess I was a little off ;).


Only if it's on a Civic. Or a Shitsubishi. :kekeke:




Does anyone know if the vacuum control box, either under the seat or the black box in the bay controls the fuel pump, or coil power?


I'm not totally sure about the Accords but I'm pretty sure they don't. The ignition should be powered on it's own whenever the ignition switch is in "on" or "start". The fuel pump should have a relay (of sorts) that monitors the "-" side of the coil and powers the fuel pump when it sees pulses from the ignition. That's how the carbed Preludes work and I bet the Accords are the same. If you haven't seen it yet, there are some links somewhere to the factory service manuals that you can download. Those will help a lot.


C|

[cygnus x-1]

That is correct, It is a batch fire system, meaning that two injectors are fired at the same time. This isn't really too much of an issue much above idle, and there is now support from mega squirt to run full sequential fuel injection, it just requires a lot of extra work at this point. I plan to eventually move to a MS3 and that should have support for it right out of the box, along with full coil on plug support in the stock configuration.


The MS3 will be seriously cool. Full sequential/COP support for up to 8 cylinders, individual cylinder fuel/spark trim, way more inputs/outputs for other functions, awesome stuff. Incidentally I'm just about finished with the sequential/COP upgrade to my MS2, so I don't think I'll be going to MS3 for a good while. It would be neat to play with the model based fueling (instead of table based) whenever they get to that point. But that's still way experimental stuff, even for the big OEMs.




Ok... just finished that final... I think it went pretty well, now back to the project ;) does anyone know what the lbs/hr rating is for stock LXI injectors? Thanks for your interest y'all!


22lb/hr. I'm going to guess that you're calculating Req_fuel? The req_fuel calculator and auto VE table generator should at least get it running and idling. Then you can tweak from there.


C|

[cougar97536]

Thank you sir... that is exactly what I was doing, and that is what I thought I remembered from way back... just couldn't find it again when I needed it. (don't you just hate that?)

and I looked at the firing order about 3 minutes ago, and smacked my head... I saw where you where going with switching 'em, and then thought you must have wanted it the way I drew it... but no the firing order isn't 1,2,3,4 , its 1,3,4,2 ... go figure...

thanks for the heads up on the manuals, I already had em though :(
the wiring diagrams in there are the biggest let down I have had in a while though. They seem to have prided themselves on making stuff confusing-leaving useful stuff out. I have been spoiled in the recent past by the Fiero manuals, they have pin out for all major connectors, and complete wiring diagrams I can follow... oh well, thanks for the assist there. I have now confirmed that I have spark with all the stupid vacuum stuff removed. I unplugged all the electrical connectors from both the "computer" and the "black box of death" and then hit the key... It started right up, also fuel pump has power still so, WE ARE IN BUSINESS!!! Sad story, It idled better without all the control stuff plugged in... ;)
Thanks much and have a good one!

PS what are you running for tuning software? TunerStudio or Megatune?

[cygnus x-1]

and I looked at the firing order about 3 minutes ago, and smacked my head... I saw where you where going with switching 'em, and then thought you must have wanted it the way I drew it... but no the firing order isn't 1,2,3,4 , its 1,3,4,2 ... go figure...


You got it then. It wouldn't have been a disaster either way. Just maybe not quote a smooth. That's the kind of stuff you only really figure out when you start messing around with things.





thanks for the heads up on the manuals, I already had em though :(
the wiring diagrams in there are the biggest let down I have had in a while though. They seem to have prided themselves on making stuff confusing-leaving useful stuff out. I have been spoiled in the recent past by the Fiero manuals, they have pin out for all major connectors, and complete wiring diagrams I can follow... oh well, thanks for the assist there.


I have to agree, those manuals aren't the best for schematics. I do have a really good schematic diagram for the Prelude but I can't remember where it came from. I know it was done by a 3rd party though. I'll see if I can figure out where it came from.




I have now confirmed that I have spark with all the stupid vacuum stuff removed. I unplugged all the electrical connectors from both the "computer" and the "black box of death" and then hit the key... It started right up, also fuel pump has power still so, WE ARE IN BUSINESS!!! Sad story, It idled better without all the control stuff plugged in... ;)

Not surprising about idling better with the control stuff. The stock carb was designed to work with all that stuff, so without it would need a retune probably. Don't worry about it. The MS will run better than the carb anyway.




PS what are you running for tuning software? TunerStudio or Megatune?


I use TunerStudio. It's really the way to go now that it's been pretty well beta tested. I think Phil was planning the first "official" stable release real soon now. It's also the only SW that works with MS3. Megatune is just too outdated at this point.


C|

[cougar97536]

Thanks for the info... and yeah I just thought that it was sad that it seemed happier WITHOUT any of that crap plugged in...
you wouldn't happen to be running a stock IAT and a stock Coolant temp sensors would you? if so would you mind sharing the resistor-temp pairs with me? Also do you know what the Bias Resistor Value should be? I am thinking that it should be 2.49k for a stock megasquirt right?
Lastly the auto VE table generation wizard, I must be blind, but where is it in TunerStudio?
Thanks for all the help, sorry I have so many questions...
BTW, thanks again for making my figure out that firing order, I adjusted the valves based on the wrong order, I am now headed out to the shop to re-adjust my valves the correct way...

[cygnus x-1]

Thanks for the info... and yeah I just thought that it was sad that it seemed happier WITHOUT any of that crap plugged in...


Oh, I misread what you said. It's happy to have been liberated and not held down by the (emissions) man!




you wouldn't happen to be running a stock IAT and a stock Coolant temp sensors would you? if so would you mind sharing the resistor-temp pairs with me? Also do you know what the Bias Resistor Value should be? I am thinking that it should be 2.49k for a stock megasquirt right?


Umm, I have a GM coolant sensor and an Integra IAT that should be identical to the Accord IAT. The temp points for the IAT are:

Temp deg.C/ohms
0 / 4820
25.5 / 2083
100 / 275

There should be a graph in the service manual for the coolant sensor but you have to dig to find it. I know I've seen it though. I'll see if I can find it. You have the right value for the bias resistor.




Lastly the auto VE table generation wizard, I must be blind, but where is it in TunerStudio?

Oh, you know what? It might not be in there yet. I remember someone mentioning this on the MS forum but I forget the details.
Hmm, yeah I don't see it either. You might have to use Megatune to generate the table then. Or if you want I could send you my maps and you could try those. You would probably have to fiddle with the Req_fuel to get it to run but it might be closer than the auto generated map.




Thanks for all the help, sorry I have so many questions...
BTW, thanks again for making my figure out that firing order, I adjusted the valves based on the wrong order, I am now headed out to the shop to re-adjust my valves the correct way...


Not a problem at all. That's the whole point of this forum. :)

C|

[cougar97536]

Thank you again for all that info... I will be able to calc at least one of my sensors now... Just wondering why are you not running the Honda coolant sensor? Also, if you don't mind, how hard was it to get the gm sensor threaded into the engine?

I would love to start w/ your maps of that is cool with you. By the by, have you changed something big on your motor that will effect my req_fuel?

again, thanks so much for the info!

[cygnus x-1]

Thank you again for all that info... I will be able to calc at least one of my sensors now... Just wondering why are you not funning the Honda coolant sensor? Also, if you don't mind, how hard was it to get the gm sensor threaded into the engine?


To tell you the truth I don't even remember why I used the GM sensor. It's been nearly 3 years now. I think it might have been out of convenience. Before I did the MS conversion I had an aftermarket temp gauge with the sensor plugged into the thermostat housing, so I already wasn't using the stock sensor. Then when I did the MS conversion I probably couldn't find the original sensor so I just bought a new GM one. The GM sensor curves are also programmed into Megatune by default so I wouldn't have had to go looking for the numbers.

If you look in the emission controls section of the manual there should be a graph for the Thermosensor. This is what the stock ECU uses to measure temperature so that should work for you. I can't say for certain that your Accord sensor will be the same as what's in my Prelude manual but here are the points from my manual:

Temp deg.C / Ohms
0 / 6000
20 / 2400
90 / 200

I would bet these will work for your sensor.




I would love to start w/ your maps of that is cool with you. By the by, have you changed something big on your motor that will effect my req_fuel?

again, thanks so much for the info!


I do have larger than stock injectors and an upgraded cam, but that shouldn't make much difference. The req_fuel is really just a scaling value for the VE table. You could for example double the req_fuel number and divide the entries in your VE table by 2 and the engine would run exactly the same. Conversely you could divide req_fuel by 2 and double the VE table and get the same thing again. The shape of the VE table is determined largely by the torque profile of the engine, which won't change much until you start doing some pretty serious mods. So since I have larger injectors you might need a higher req_fuel to compensate, but then I also have a longer duration cam so it may need to be smaller.

Except, I just thought of something else. You're going to be using the stock O2 sensor correct? If that's the case you might not be able to use my fuel map at all. I have a wideband O2 sensor that reads true AFR over a wide range, where the stock sensor is only good at around the stoichiometric point. With a wideband sensor you would usually have separate VE and AFR tables, which I'm not sure you can do with a regular narrow band sensor. I would have to do some investigating. You might get to it before I do, so let me know what you find if I haven't posted anything yet. I'm kind of curious myself, having never used a narrow band sensor with the MS.


C|

[cougar97536]

Thanks for looking up those values for me...

Yeah it looks like I can't have a AFR Table until I go wideband... TunerStudio locks me out of AFR until I say I am using a wideband... I plan to, just too broke right now to do it...

So I guess it looks like I am going to have to start from scratch... oh well... I guess that is part of the experience...

Thanks again... I owe you at least a few beers if you are ever over this way... :)

[cougar97536]

I am now wondering if this might not me an accord a20 after all, I have an air cleaner box from an 88 accord lxi, and it will not fit on to my intake manifold, are the intakes different between accords and preludes maybe? I don't think that it makes much difference either way, I would just like to know where this motor came from...

Hey, cygnus mind if I ask what you did about the EGR? did you delete it? if so what did you use to plug the hole in the exhaust manifold?

Since finals are all said and done, I have now been able to spend alot of time tonight on the car, the old engine is almost out... and I have the new engine as close to ready to go as I can make it without the tranny and what not off of the original motor.
Good Lord willing, I should have the new motor in there before this time tomorrow... Then the wiring and fueling fun begins! ;)
Have a great one y'all

[cougar97536]

Update, old engine is now OUT!!!! I am headed to bed now, having just washed 20 years of oil and dirt off of me... :)

[cygnus x-1]

I am now wondering if this might not me an accord a20 after all, I have an air cleaner box from an 88 accord lxi, and it will not fit on to my intake manifold, are the intakes different between accords and preludes maybe? I don't think that it makes much difference either way, I would just like to know where this motor came from...


If it's an A20A3 it had to come from either an Accord or a Prelude. There was an earlier and a later version of the A20A3, and it's possible the air boxes aren't the same. I wouldn't use the air boxes anyway though. Just make a cold air intake or even short ram for now. Air box = useless crap.




Hey, cygnus mind if I ask what you did about the EGR? did you delete it? if so what did you use to plug the hole in the exhaust manifold?

My engine is a mutt. I started with an A18 block which is just a 1.8L version of the A20. The 1.8L head though is not so great so I put an A20 head on it and had the block bored out to fit A20 pistons. So now it essentially is an A20. For the intake manifold I modified one from a B18A1 (LS Integra). The EGR port was cut off and the hole brazed over. In your case it would be easier to just leave the valve in place and not connect it to anything. Or you could make a block off plate for it. Or you could saw off the EGR tube at the exhaust manifold and plug it there. You would still need to leave the valve in place or make a block off plate though.

JBWeld works good for plugging intake manifold holes. Don't use it on the exhaust.


That's cool you got the engine out. One thing to watch for, the engine mounts *might* not be exactly the same between the two engines. If that's the case, use the mounts that came with the car. They will bolt up to the new engine.


On the AFR map; I kinda figured you wouldn't be able to use the split maps. Tuning will be harder without the wideband but not impossible. I've never done it so check the MS forums for tips. I would highly recommend picking up a wide band at the earliest opportunity though. Very much worth it. The Innovate LC-1 is about the best deal around and well supported.


C|

[cougar97536]

Thanks for the info, I guess I will just leave it unpluged for now, as I need this thing running... in other news, The new sending line for the fuel is installed, and I learned that they didn't want you inside the under hood fuse panel... and that the bezel around the guage pod will not survive me rolling on it... :(
*goes to look for new fuse box, and bezel*

I am planning to tie into the harness right under the box for power to the injectors and the ECU itself, do you see any issue with this plan? also what size fuse you reckon I should run on the injector line? 15 amp sound good?

Have a great one,
Christopher

[cygnus x-1]

Thanks for the info, I guess I will just leave it unpluged for now, as I need this thing running... in other news, The new sending line for the fuel is installed, and I learned that they didn't want you inside the under hood fuse panel... and that the bezel around the guage pod will not survive me rolling on it... :(
*goes to look for new fuse box, and bezel*


I managed to get into my fuse box but it wasn't easy. Took awhile to figure out how it came apart. Good thing Accords are common in junkyards.




I am planning to tie into the harness right under the box for power to the injectors and the ECU itself, do you see any issue with this plan? also what size fuse you reckon I should run on the injector line? 15 amp sound good?

As long as it's switched power it's fine. 15 amps is good.




Christopher

Hey, that's my name! :flash:


C|

[cougar97536]

update: I have a replacement fuse box, and The Engine is IN!!! :)
Now I am off to get more beer and some wiring supplies... should have her ready to try to start by this time tomorrow... good lord willing, and if the creek don't rise... there should be happy engine sounds coming from my shop tomorrow!
Have a great one,
Christopher King

[89T]

update: :)
Now I am off to get more beer and some wiring supplies
:D

I concur my friend.. :cheers:
^I am doing the same thing^
Drinkin beer, Finnishing the wiring.

Good luck and I hope you get it running.

[cougar97536]

More updates:
All Cables are hooked up
shifter is reinstalled
downpipe is bolted up
fuel tanks are swapped out, and rear end is back on the ground --- the fuel tank on these cars is a #@$@^ to remove-install
dash is almost complete again
all factory engine wiring is plugged back in

looking for some number again, what are the peak HP and torque numbers for a stock A20A3?

As I get close to trying to start this, I have a confession, I don't have a stim, so I am wondering if I run any serious risk of screwing things up without it? Any thoughts on this? What do you think I should have set in my config to for an initial start? I have read X-tau off, and a basic VE Table generated here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm, and then calibrate the tps before start up, am I missing something?

I am getting there... I can almost taste it now.
Thanks for all the advice and info, Have a great one,
Christopher

[ecogabriel]

Does the stock ECU run a batch fire setup as well? I've been trying to figure this out for a while. I've never could figure out how people ran a Multiport injection system on the older Civics off of a dual-port ECU by adding a couple wires. I guess if it was batch-fire, then that would make plenty of sense.

3Gs have sequential injection..
Take a look on page 12-30 of the 1989 USDM manual; it is the troubleshooting of the sensors that feed info to the sequential fuel injection. I understood how the system works by looking at the little diagram on that page, together with the wiring diagram on page 12-8. ECU can operate each injector separately (each one has its own connection to the ECU). It knows which cylinder is which by using the info from one of those sensors, and get the firing timing from the other... I find it quite interesting that a car that old was loaded with such a technology under the hood.

[cougar97536]

Update:
All fuel system joints now sporting new crush washers, and are tightened down
spark plugs are in and gaped
The engine is now turning over, and has spark

It looks so much nicer in that engine bay without all the extra hoses, and without so much oil sprayed everywhere!

just need to finish the wiring for the computer and we should be cookin' with gas!

I have a few more questions:
does the polarity matter on fuel injectors? I don't see why it would, as long as I am consistent, but I wanted to make sure before I wire them up into my new harness. If it does matter, which pin is positive?
also, what should I have set for my Ignition settings? I am not controlling spark at this time, so I am not at all sure what matters, and what doesn't. The MegaManual never comes out and says, if you are using MS2 to control only fuel and have a one pulse per rev signal coming in from a VR sensor, use the following settings, at least not that I have been able to find.

[cygnus x-1]

looking for some number again, what are the peak HP and torque numbers for a stock A20A3?

120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm




As I get close to trying to start this, I have a confession, I don't have a stim, so I am wondering if I run any serious risk of screwing things up without it? Any thoughts on this?

The odds of damage are not very high, especially with fuel only. If you've managed to power up the MS and talk to it with MT/TS then you can pretty much bet it's fine. I don't have a stim either.




What do you think I should have set in my config to for an initial start? I have read X-tau off, and a basic VE Table generated here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm, and then calibrate the tps before start up, am I missing something?


Calibrate the coolant temp and IAT sensors. Did you set the injector characteristics? Set the PWM current limit to 100% and injector opening time to 1.0ms. Most of the other settings can be left at the defaults for now.



Update:
It looks so much nicer in that engine bay without all the extra hoses, and without so much oil sprayed everywhere!

You aren't kidding! It's so nice to work in a clean uncluttered engine bay.





I have a few more questions:
does the polarity matter on fuel injectors? I don't see why it would, as long as I am consistent, but I wanted to make sure before I wire them up into my new harness. If it does matter, which pin is positive?


I don't think so, but I followed the factory polarity anyway. If you look at the wire colors on the factory injector wires, they will all have one wire that is the same color, like red/blk, or yel/blk, or something like that. Those are the ones that go to the resistor box for +12V. The other wires will all be different colors and will go to the ECU.




also, what should I have set for my Ignition settings? I am not controlling spark at this time, so I am not at all sure what matters, and what doesn't. The MegaManual never comes out and says, if you are using MS2 to control only fuel and have a one pulse per rev signal coming in from a VR sensor, use the following settings, at least not that I have been able to find.

There should be a fuel only setting for "Spark Mode" in the ignition options. The "Ignition Input Capture" setting I don't think will really matter. Other than that, leave everything at the defaults until it's up and running.


C|

[cougar97536]

Thank you, I now think I know enough to finish the wiring and try to start her tonight. I am sure I will have other questions before I am any where near done though...
Thanks for the help

[cygnus x-1]

Thank you, I now think I know enough to finish the wiring and try to start her tonight. I am sure I will have other questions before I am any where near done though...
Thanks for the help


Good luck!


C|

[1987AccordLx-i]

[QUOTE=cygnus x-1;1009734]120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm

msn.com claims 120hp at 5500rpm and 130ft tq at 4500rpm... now who to believe 0_0

[MessyHonda]

[QUOTE=cygnus x-1;1009734]120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm

msn.com claims 120hp at 5500rpm and 130ft tq at 4500rpm... now who to believe 0_0

Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...

[cougar97536]

Well, 99% of the wires are now installed, the squirt is now seeing a temp on both temp sensors, the TPS is working as expected after calibration.
I do not however have a tach signal that works. I am wired into what should be the TDC output from the dizzy, but when I crank the engine, Engine Speed is still zero in TunerStudio. Any ideas on what might cause this? After I solve this mystery, I am ready to hook up the oxy sensor, and clean up the harness. Then it will be that time, when I plug the fuel pump in, and we have a moment of truth!

also, how do you import a vex file into tunerstudio? I am guessing I could just copy all the fields over, but there must be a better-more fool proof way to go about it... I am currently running the B&G firmware, I belive it to be the most recent version.

thanks ya'll, I am hitting the sack, I'll have another go later this morning, after some nice sleep...

[cygnus x-1]

Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...


I just copied that from Wikipedia, so I don't know if it's really correct or not. But 130 lb-ft sounds a little optimistic.

And Messy, the A20A1 put out more torque than HP. :D




Well, 99% of the wires are now installed, the squirt is now seeing a temp on both temp sensors, the TPS is working as expected after calibration.
I do not however have a tach signal that works. I am wired into what should be the TDC output from the dizzy, but when I crank the engine, Engine Speed is still zero in TunerStudio. Any ideas on what might cause this? After I solve this mystery, I am ready to hook up the oxy sensor, and clean up the harness. Then it will be that time, when I plug the fuel pump in, and we have a moment of truth!


Ok, sounds like you're just about there. On the tach signal, first make sure that you have a signal on that line. A scope would be the best but a simple voltmeter should give you at least some indication that there is a pulse signal. Try switching the tach input capture setting and see if that fixes it. I said earlier that the polarity wouldn't matter, but I just remembered you're using a VR type signal, in which case it does matter. Just try both settings (going high, going low) and see which one works.

If you have a signal on that line and changing the ignition capture settings doesn't help, you might send me your .msq file so I can take a look.




also, how do you import a vex file into tunerstudio? I am guessing I could just copy all the fields over, but there must be a better-more fool proof way to go about it... I am currently running the B&G firmware, I belive it to be the most recent version.

I'm at work and don't have access to my files, but, I just loaded up TS here with an old .msq. Wow, the menu layout with a B&G .msq is quite different from an MSExtra .msq. I had forgotten about that.

Anyway, when you open the VE table (from "basic tables"), there are some symbols in the upper right corner (make sure it's in 2D mode). The left arrow and right arrow are for import and export.

Looking more at the menus, I don't see a fuel only option in the ignition settings, so I guess just ignore most of them. The only one I can see making any difference is the "ignition input capture".



C|

[cougar97536]

Thanks man, I am headed out to the garage now to check if, number one I have a signal at the dizzy, then two if I have one at the DB37... If I do then I will spend more time working on the settings under ignition in tunerstudio...
you think I should go to the extra code now while it is still easy? I know it is better, but how much better?
thanks again, I am sure I will be back with more questions,
Christopher King

[cougar97536]

update:
Ok, I have checked at the dizzy, got voltage while cranking, checked at my splice, have same voltage while cranking, checked the DB and I have voltage there too. I am 99% sure that I built the squirt correctly to accept a VR sensor, but I am going to pop the cover off and have a look see.

[cougar97536]

ok, I found two resistors that where of the wrong value in my VR system on the board, they have now been fixed, and I am seeing a tach signal now, does about 290 sound right for cranking?
Thanks y'all,
Christopher King

[2ndGenGuy]

Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...

The earlier Accord motors all had higher peak torque numbers than peak horsepower.

[cygnus x-1]

ok, I found two resistors that where of the wrong value in my VR system on the board, they have now been fixed, and I am seeing a tach signal now, does about 290 sound right for cranking?
Thanks y'all,
Christopher King


YES! I think you just about have it!

If you think you might ever want to switch to MSExtra, it would be easier to do it now. Switching back and forth is not difficult at all but it does require some minor tuning tweaks. For fuel only there isn't much difference but the ignition options are greater with MSExtra. And there there's the whole sequential injection/COP thing too with MSExtra.

Yeah, I would say do the switch now.


C|

[cougar97536]

I will switch here really soon then, just want to make it sputter first, I now have my map sensor hooked to the manifold, and can see vacuum while I cranks, but it doesn't try to fire yet. I am currently using the carb wiring for the fuel pump, and am wondering if I need to rewire to use the squirts signal, it doesn't seem to be getting pressure up at the injectors... I am also going to check and make sure that the computer is grounding the injectors while it is cranking, then if I fix-check both of those and no sign of life, I will have to come up with more interesting candidates for my issues...
Thanks again so much for the help,
Christopher King

[cygnus x-1]

I will switch here really soon then, just want to make it sputter first, I now have my map sensor hooked to the manifold, and can see vacuum while I cranks, but it doesn't try to fire yet. I am currently using the carb wiring for the fuel pump, and am wondering if I need to rewire to use the squirts signal, it doesn't seem to be getting pressure up at the injectors... I am also going to check and make sure that the computer is grounding the injectors while it is cranking, then if I fix-check both of those and no sign of life, I will have to come up with more interesting candidates for my issues...
Thanks again so much for the help,
Christopher King


I think the stock wiring for the fuel pump should work, but I'm not too familiar with the Accord fuel system. They all use an in-tank pump where the Preludes use an external pump. And the carb pump on the Prelude operates differently that the FI pump. One thing you could try real quick is to hot wire the pump so you know it's running and then try to start. Also, if it's getting fuel you should be able to smell it right at the throttle body (open it and take a sniff) or at the tail pipe.


C|

[cougar97536]

I got her to run! Right now though she is idling at about 2100 rpm, and has to be bottle fed to start her, then she can take care of it herself...
I am in the process of switching to MSExtra code, before I make any changes, then I will get after trying to make here idle nice...
have a great one,
Christopher

Also, is it common to have the oil pressure switch fail on these engines? I just noticed my light is on, and I am a little worried, I did however look at the main and rod bearings when I had the pan off, and they looked good, so I am unsure what I could have done to make this a real problem.

[cougar97536]

The coolant sensor didn't seem to be working in the first few runs. In a latter run, the coolant temp shot up to 300+ whenever an air bubble got into that area of the cooling system, I think the calibration is just way off. I will try messing with it again soon. I didn't remove the idle air valve off the back of the intake, the one with all the coolant hoses running to it... should I have removed that? I am now running the extra code, and it really did change things in tunerstudio... but I have it idling again... still at 2000+ cold and 1500 warm though. I am headed out to address these issues now... My O2 sensor also appears to be FUBAR, can I tune my idle-low load by the seat of my pants? Will this hurt anything exept my spark plugs? If I am careful and stay on the rich side?

[cygnus x-1]

I got her to run! Right now though she is idling at about 2100 rpm, and has to be bottle fed to start her, then she can take care of it herself...

That could possibly be the fuel pump, or it could be the cranking pulse width too. More below...




Also, is it common to have the oil pressure switch fail on these engines? I just noticed my light is on, and I am a little worried, I did however look at the main and rod bearings when I had the pan off, and they looked good, so I am unsure what I could have done to make this a real problem.


Mmm, the connection is still ok? I've never heard of one failing but it's possible. Can you swap it with the old one?




The coolant sensor didn't seem to be working in the first few runs. In a latter run, the coolant temp shot up to 300+ whenever an air bubble got into that area of the cooling system, I think the calibration is just way off. I will try messing with it again soon.


Ok, yeah. Sounds like the cal is off.




I didn't remove the idle air valve off the back of the intake, the one with all the coolant hoses running to it... should I have removed that?


I would leave it for now. If you take it off you'll have to plug the holes. And you might want to use it some day.




I am now running the extra code, and it really did change things in tunerstudio... but I have it idling again... still at 2000+ cold and 1500 warm though. I am headed out to address these issues now...


If it won't start at all without extra fuel then the cranking pulse width may need to be increased. If it starts but then dies after a second or two then the ASE percentage and maybe taper needs to be increased. Incidentally I've always seemed to have some minor issues with this. Mine is kinda grumpy for the first 30 seconds or so at startup unless I rev it up to 2000RPM or so. As far as I can tell it's because I have no idle valve for fast idle at all.



My O2 sensor also appears to be FUBAR, can I tune my idle-low load by the seat of my pants? Will this hurt anything exept my spark plugs? If I am careful and stay on the rich side?


I would stay on the lean side actually. At low loads you can run as lean as it will go because there isn't enough mixture in the cylinders to be able to cause any damage, even if it did detonate. In my experience these engines don't like really lean mixtures though. The combustion chamber shape isn't as optimized as on newer engines, so it starts to misfire if you go any leaner than 16:1. You can tell this is happening because it's starts to surge and feel sort of nervous and wheezy. It won't hurt anything, it just doesn't run so great. I find that 15.5:1 is pretty good at loads up to 50-60kPa.

But you don't have a wide band O2 yet so don't worry about the AFR for now. Just tune so that it feels good and doesn't smoke or surge.


C|

[cougar97536]

I finally got it to idle about right, I had to unplug the dash pot. It now is adjustable with the idle screw. I also replaced the O2 sensor, and now am getting a signal in TunerStudio that changes with the engine... so I think it works. Coolant Temp problem was I was hooked into the fan switch for a fuel injected car, apparently on the latter A20A3s they had that sensor in the therm housing, once I plugged into the correct port on the therm housing, the readings now look correct in TunerStudio... Progress is being made... :)
Now I just need to get my VE table in order, and the acceleration enrichment sorted.
Thanks much for help...

[cygnus x-1]

Awesome! It's a great feeling when it all starts coming together isn't it? It will be interesting to see how you get on with tuning with the stock O2 sensor.

I need to get mine put back together and running, now that the weather is starting to warm up.


C|

[cougar97536]

Evening Update:
The cruise settings in the VE Table are about there, I feel like I can drive the car now.

The clutch is FUBAR, I have maxed out my adjustment, and it still slip a little if you get on it at all, I will look for a screw up in pedal connection tomorrow...

It is having an issue where once it has been driven a while, where it will stutter at an idle. I have tried richer, and I have tried leaner, and nothing seems to fix this when it decides to do this...

Chris, you really should get yours together man, seems like you love working on your car as much as I do, and I would go nuts without a running car, or three... I am CAR POOR!!!

Have a nice one y'all

[cougar97536]

Evening update:
I have just completed a 300+ mile trip with the car, and everything seems to be coming together... My table now kind of looks like I have a clue, and the power is much improved from the old motor, the butt dyno can see a big difference...
Also, the clutch turned out to have the cable not in all the way at the pedal end, causing it to not have enough travel to fully release, fixed that bugger this morning...
Have a great one y'all,
CK

btw pics will be up soon (read tomorrow) of the nearly finished product! :)

[cougar97536]

Here are a few pictures of the project as it sits now, I will be cleaning up-Fixing things for the next few days, then I will post more pictures, with better lighting I promise... I also installed a set of brand new NGK spark plugs today... and drove the car some more... she has a lot more pickup than she used to... makes me happy, It actually is pretty respectable for the commuter car I want this thing to be when complete.

Here is the Engine Compartment as a whole, as of tonight...
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7849/img4114small.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/img4114small.jpg/)

and the left hand side of the bay:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3075/img4117small.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/img4117small.jpg/)

and the black box of death is GONE!!! here is proof for all those who doubted it was possible... ;)
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8094/img4118small.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/img4118small.jpg/)

Have a great one everyone... all two or three that actually might be following this... ;)

[cygnus x-1]

Excellent Smithers! One more step towards ECU world domination is complete!




Evening Update:
Chris, you really should get yours together man, seems like you love working on your car as much as I do, and I would go nuts without a running car, or three... I am CAR POOR!!!


Actually I have 3 vehicles but only one of them is fully operational at the moment. The Prelude is undergoing brain surgery right now along with some minor upgrades; all in preparation for a couple BIG upgrades sometime this summer. My Nissan is pickup is the current daily driver. My Suzuki Samurai is theoretically operational but it burns oil so bad you can't drive it very far without getting a headache; unless you take the top off. Too many projects and not enough money/time.


C|

[cougar97536]

CJ, in the table you sent me, that bottom row really that low-lean, or does the wide band sensor and the AFR table deal with this, I am going to try really leaning out my lower row, I just don't feel comfortable going anywhere near as low as you have without confirming this first. I am also guessing that where those four 18s, between 30 and 35 kpa are is your idle location correct?
The help is greatly appreciated,
CK

[cygnus x-1]

CJ, in the table you sent me, that bottom row really that low-lean, or does the wide band sensor and the AFR table deal with this, I am going to try really leaning out my lower row, I just don't feel comfortable going anywhere near as low as you have without confirming this first.


That bottom row is when the throttle is completely closed and the car is actually pushing the engine, not the other way around. Some ECUs even cut fuel completely under those conditions to save fuel. In my case the VE values are so low because that's what was required to keep the AFR from being way too rich. The mixture there is really not as lean as it would appear. It's just that there is so little air getting in to the cylinders, that even the tiniest amount of extra fuel makes the AFR way rich.

Honestly that part of my table is not really so good. One possible cause for this is that I have the opening time for the injectors set too high, so that more fuel is getting in than it thinks there is. But it could also just be not so accurate readings from the wide band. Really it doesn't much matter because the engine is under negative load and there is hardly any mixture burning at all.




I am also guessing that where those four 18s, between 30 and 35 kpa are is your idle location correct?
The help is greatly appreciated,
CK


Yup. The best way to tune the idle is by sound and feel. Lean out the mixture until the idle RPM starts to drop, then richen it back up again until the RPM gets back to its high point. That high point is what you want and every engine is a little different in what it wants. For some reason my engine likes a really rich idle. Others are ok with a leaner idle.


C|

[cougar97536]

Well, I have been having fun chasing a squeel under the hood of the car for the last three days... It happens from about 1000-2000 rpm, then disappears I have just about decided that the timing belt tensioner is no good - out of adjustment from when I installed the new belt. along the way, I put in another new water pump, and hand my alternator checked, as well as checking the belt tension, and inspecting the accessory belt... This car is toying with me, and I don't like guessing games...
Have a great one y'all, Ill keep all three people reading this updated...
CK

[cougar97536]

Update, the sound is now GONE!!! It turned out to be the alternator like I thought at first, had it tested, the gent said everything checks out... so it now has a new timing belt tensioner, new water pump(2nd new one), a new accessory belt, had the clutch cable adjusted, along with the new alternator that I just installed... but it is now fixed... and all but the water pump should have been done anyway I guess... Now I just have to figure out what is wrong at the gas tank, it smells like gas every time I take a turn, until the tank gets to about a half, then all is well.
Have a great one y'all,
CK

[cougar97536]

Update:
Well, the noise came back... turns out its the throwout bearing, I have just got back from the Autozone, where I ordered a LUK clutch kit. Should have it in the car soon. Then I can finally get around to cleaning up the engine bay, just been to busy driving it to school (it's my only car) to take it down to fix all the little things right now.
Have a great one,
Christopher

[2ndGenGuy]

Woah, are you guys both named Chris? :tongue:

Glad to see you updating the thread. I've been following along, as it's another one of the more interesting threads here!