Auto V Manual Coil Springs. Differences?

[stezie]

Hi,

I have been looking for ages to find a set of original springs for my 3g. This is because the previous owner had fitted a set of springs from an unknown car and cut them to fit. It was a real mess.

It was hard to find a 3g where I am for parts, so when I eventually found an 2lt auto in a breakers I harvested all the parts I could.

I fitted the front coilovers and the front of the car seems way too high. Almost looks as if there is no engine fitted.

I presume there is a difference in the auto v manual springs? I take it the auto box is really heavy and needs a tighter spring? Any insight on the coil springs will be a help.



Although the car now sits far too high looking, it drives 400% better now and feels alot safer on these springs. I wouldnt mind the car sitting high, as long as it drives ok, but Im not fond of the angle going on here..

I have pics to show the big difference.

before:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h290/stezie1/1988%20Accord/IMG_0069.jpg

after:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h290/stezie1/1988%20Accord/Accord_AutoCoilSprings.jpg

[A18A]

i honestly don't know, but i have the same issue. my accords also seem alot higher than what the stock height should be with standard springs in them too. mine are from an automatic as well. hmm. anyway, post more pics of your car :thumbup:

[Nafs Asdf]

No idea on the springs, but A18A is right. We need moar pics. :D

Feels like I'm looking at my car two years ago... And it makes me miss my ducktail spoiler. :( Hows yours holding up? Mine was rotten from the inside out so I had to take it off.

[ghettogeddy]

im not sure if there is that much weight difference between auto and 5 speed to change the ride hight

[stezie]

To be honest I'm a bit embarrassed to take close up pics this weather. the rear arches are suffering badly with rust. The duck tail is still holding up ok... but it may not survive another winter. I will have to put all my spare cash into getting a garage set up over the summer.

I may start a members album with what ever picture i do have.

but still cant figure out how the front seems so high compared to the rear.

[A18A]

im not sure if there is that much weight difference between auto and 5 speed to change the ride hight

i think its possible, i never actually weighed them before, but i swear when you have to carry them, 1 auto box weighs like 3 times more than a manual one lol. i usually just drag auto boxes by their shifter cable cause they're too heavy /off topic

[stezie]

i think its possible, i never actually weighed them before, but i swear when you have to carry them, 1 auto box weighs like 3 times more than a manual one lol. i usually just drag auto boxes by their shifter cable cause they're too heavy /off topic


Thats what i was thinking.. because the car is sitting like it has no engine fitted. lol

[stat1K]

for the american accord the part number for the spring is the same between autos and manuals.

http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~spring~51401-SE0-632.html

[2ndGenGuy]

Have you driven it around to get those springs to settle? The car will always sit higher after jacking it up. Especially after swapping springs. I bet if you take it out and drive it around like you stole it, you'll lose nearly an inch out of that and it will look just fine.

[stat1K]

^ it's also going to look a shit ton higher after riding lowered for so long.

[Nafs Asdf]

Random thought... Isn't the B20 lighter than the A20? Doubt it'd make any more difference than the auto/manual issue tho.

I think 2ndgen probably got it right.

[2ndGenGuy]

I doubt the B20 is any lighter. The gearbox is heavier, and the DOHC head is definitely heavier.

[Nafs Asdf]

I doubt the B20 is any lighter. The gearbox is heavier, and the DOHC head is definitely heavier.

On the other hand the block is a whole lot lighter... Aluminum vs. Iron. Guess they might be around the same weight all added up.

[2drSE-i]

I doubt the B20 is any lighter. The gearbox is heavier, and the DOHC head is definitely heavier.

The A block is cast iron though, isn't the B20 aluminum? Also a difference between closed/open deck.

I know there are no different part numbers between auto/manual, but i'm fairly certain they were different from the factory.

[2ndGenGuy]

The A block is cast iron though, isn't the B20 aluminum? Also a difference between closed/open deck.

I know there are no different part numbers between auto/manual, but i'm fairly certain they were different from the factory.

I don't think the difference in weight from the different casting materials makes up for the weight of the transmission and cylinder head. You still have cast iron sleeves in the block, and I'm pretty sure the B20A is still a closed-deck design (but I could be wrong).

[ecogabriel]

Have you ever taken a look at the rear springs?

Your front "before" looked way too low. I agree that it looks a little bit too high (3-4 cm?) But I would take a look at the rear of the car just in case.

www.rockauto.com seems to stock parts from european cars too; take a look and see what you can find

[2oodoor]

I think I looked that up once, but I know b20 was much lighter to handle on the ground.
you may need to get the wheel alignment checked, that may make it look a little more normal as well:D boatload of camber will increase the gap like that..

[Hauntd ca3]

well according to the ws manual, the difference in front axle weights between the heaviest a20 powered and b20 powered accords is only 10 kgs so i dont think the springs between the two will be any different.
if the old springs were cut, they would sag faster than standard length ones just due to the higher loading on the spring wire

[AccordB20A]

my other accord also sits really really high for some reason, it has replacement shocks in it too

B20a is a bit heavier i think (ive lifted both into the boot of a car by myself lol)

b20a is the same closed deck like an a20a

[MessyHonda]

yeah springs are the same...your best bet is to find some adjustable coil overs to fix it

[stezie]

Have you driven it around to get those springs to settle? The car will always sit higher after jacking it up. Especially after swapping springs. I bet if you take it out and drive it around like you stole it, you'll lose nearly an inch out of that and it will look just fine.

Ha.. Yeah tried that! lol


Have you ever taken a look at the rear springs?

Your front "before" looked way too low. I agree that it looks a little bit too high (3-4 cm?) But I would take a look at the rear of the car just in case.

www.rockauto.com seems to stock parts from european cars too; take a look and see what you can find

I changed the back as well as the front. The back is sitting fine.. just the front looks a bit yuch now..


yeah springs are the same...your best bet is to find some adjustable coil overs to fix it

Ha, usually I would but its not what im after on this car. I want this car to be completely OEM, its a restoration project. A slow one at that though..



Yeah on the point of swapping stuff over I also used the shock absorbers from the auto aswell as they were the same side by side. This is a puzzle..

[stezie]

for the american accord the part number for the spring is the same between autos and manuals.

http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~spring~51401-SE0-632.html



yeah the manual and auto have the same part number for the complete assembly.. so there shouldnt be any differences.....

Front Shock ASSY (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/online/Page_Product/PartDetail.aspx?catalogID=31&productID=5&yearID=27&doorID=4&gradeID=72&areaID=4&transmissionID=5&originID=-1&colorLabelIDs=-1&colorLabelID=-1&sectionID=6&idAndImageID=5500%20458877&isBigPicture=False&pageName=Front%20Shock%20Absorber)

[stezie]

Crap just thought of this.... The only part I didnt bring with me was the fork at the bottom of the shock to the wishbone... Does any one know if this part has any differences???

[stezie]

Crap just thought of this.... The only part I didnt bring with me was the fork at the bottom of the shock to the wishbone... Does any one know if this part has any differences???

No that has the same part number aswell. unless mu EDM 2.0i 16v model has a special part thats not listed on the americam models..

Pity we dont have a look up system like that here.. But boy you americans can get the parts cheap. Id say any price on there is at least 4 or 5 times more expensive here.

[Nafs Asdf]

No that has the same part number aswell. unless mu EDM 2.0i 16v model has a special part thats not listed on the americam models..

Pity we dont have a look up system like that here.. But boy you americans can get the parts cheap. Id say any price on there is at least 4 or 5 times more expensive here.

Let me know what parts you want looked up and I'll check them for you when I get home. I have the Honda EPC (electronic parts catalogue) on my computer.

And yeah, I know what you're talking about with the prices. You can get stuff a lot cheaper from the states. I ordered some OEM Honda stuff through someone on here, and payed shipping both from the store to them and from them to me and it all was still a whole lot cheaper than going to the Honda dealer 1.5 km away.

[w261w261]

Have you driven it around to get those springs to settle? The car will always sit higher after jacking it up. Especially after swapping springs. I bet if you take it out and drive it around like you stole it, you'll lose nearly an inch out of that and it will look just fine.

why does it sit higher like that?

[Nafs Asdf]

I looked around a bit in the EPC, and turns out there are a buttload of different part numbers for springs. The EX/EXi's and 2.0i-16's have different springs and shocks, 86-87's and 88-89's also differ.

The '87 2.0i-16 has the same spring as the '89 EXi, but different shock. The '89 again has the same shock as the '89 EXi, but different spring. To add to the confusion, for many of the individual models for each year there are more than one part number for the spring and/or shock depending on frame number... so go figure.

Also manuals and autos do indeed have different springs or at least part numbers for them.

[stezie]

I looked around a bit in the EPC, and turns out there are a buttload of different part numbers for springs. The EX/EXi's and 2.0i-16's have different springs and shocks, 86-87's and 88-89's also differ.

The '87 2.0i-16 has the same spring as the '89 EXi, but different shock. The '89 again has the same shock as the '89 EXi, but different spring. To add to the confusion, for many of the individual models for each year there are more than one part number for the spring and/or shock depending on frame number... so go figure.

Also manuals and autos do indeed have different springs or at least part numbers for them.

Oh dear... now the confusion sets in...

[stezie]

why does it sit higher like that?

Thats what I am trying to figure out :)

[stezie]

So.... I compared suspension part numbers for the 2.0i 12v auto (which i got the parts out of) and the 2.0i 16v and the front and rear struts including the front fork all have the same part numbers... :wtf:

[2drSE-i]

So.... I compared suspension part numbers for the 2.0i 12v auto (which i got the parts out of) and the 2.0i 16v and the front and rear struts including the front fork all have the same part numbers... :wtf:

It is very possible that the parts companies have stopped producing all 20 different springs, struts, etc and consolidated into 1. Why make a bunch of different parts when they all fit, ya know?

What does suck is they are all the same rates, so some cars will ride sky high and harsh and others will be kinda low and soft.

[stezie]

yeah but, what i'd like to know is how some one that might be restoring a rare 1960 mercedes something or other, how come the right parts can still be got?

I wonder if there is there a way to get the specifications of discontinued parts, so if it was really wanted badly enough i can bring those specs to an engineering shop to have manufactured. May work out alot more expensive, but it will be the right thing then.

[2drSE-i]

Unfortunately, these were economy cars from the get-go. Present company excluded, no one gives a flying **** about these cars. Sorry to say, but its true.

[AccordB20A]

im pretty sure using 2.0Si springs in a base model a series shitbox accord the fronts really high lol

[Nafs Asdf]

Oh yeah, JDM springs are also different from EDM springs. So I would suppose USDM springs would be different too...

[stat1K]

i would assume that the cars taht got the same motor, ie a20's, in europe might have the same springs as the american accords.

honda lists all the same number for the springs, typically if there were a consolidated part there would be an entry on the site saying replaced by: XXXXX-XXX-XXX (<--part number) and a link to click on it to see the applications.

this didn't seem to be the case in the usa market, they all seemed to be the same since we all got the same motor over here. so i guess that would make sense to me that since you guys got the b20 and a18 there would be different springs based on those platforms. i know with civic's the 96-00 civic use the same springs except for the 99-00 si, the springs are stiffer. and the only real difference between the others and the em1 is the fact that it comes factory with a b16.

[Nafs Asdf]

i would assume that the cars taht got the same motor, ie a20's, in europe might have the same springs as the american accords.

honda lists all the same number for the springs, typically if there were a consolidated part there would be an entry on the site saying replaced by: XXXXX-XXX-XXX (<--part number) and a link to click on it to see the applications.

this didn't seem to be the case in the usa market, they all seemed to be the same since we all got the same motor over here. so i guess that would make sense to me that since you guys got the b20 and a18 there would be different springs based on those platforms. i know with civic's the 96-00 civic use the same springs except for the 99-00 si, the springs are stiffer. and the only real difference between the others and the em1 is the fact that it comes factory with a b16.


I'm not sure you read my post...

Even within the same model/year there are differences in spring part numbers depending on frame number. Autos and manuals have different springs. I think carbed and EFI A20A's might have had differences too.

JDM Si's have different springs from EDM 2.0i-16's, which have different springs depending on the year. I hven't checked all possible different models/years, but from the few I have checked there are a buttload of different springs.

But maybe all USDM sedans/hatches/coupes/DX's/LX's/LXi's/SEi's got the same spring while every other market got dozens of them?

I'm not saying there necessarily is a big difference between most them, but they do have different part numbers none the less.

[stezie]

I'm sure there is different spring rates. Even though the auto version and the 2.0i 16v may be roughly the same weight, they could have different suspension setups. I'm sure that the b20a'd 2.0i16v was given a firmer lower sportier ride by Honda... the differences in part number should appear in the parts catalog... but they don't..

Even at that though It doesn't explain why my car now appears to be sitting a lot higher at the front than the back when both the front and rear suspension was changed..

I'm really puzzled....


I'm looking for standard OEM parts... Has anyone fitted a set of coil overs to their 2.0i 16v? I could buy the standard spring of ya??

[Nafs Asdf]

You could have mine, I just need to get my lowering springs on the car first. Before that however, I need to find new shocks for the front.

Find me a front set of Koni reds and I'll ship you my old front springs. ;)

[stat1K]

I'm not sure you read my post...

Even within the same model/year there are differences in spring part numbers depending on frame number. Autos and manuals have different springs. I think carbed and EFI A20A's might have had differences too.

JDM Si's have different springs from EDM 2.0i-16's, which have different springs depending on the year. I hven't checked all possible different models/years, but from the few I have checked there are a buttload of different springs.

But maybe all USDM sedans/hatches/coupes/DX's/LX's/LXi's/SEi's got the same spring while every other market got dozens of them?

I'm not saying there necessarily is a big difference between most them, but they do have different part numbers none the less.

No i read it alright i'm just unsure of all of the different models and what they mean. For instance, edm 2.0i-16 vs a jdm si, i don't know what the difference in the car would be. It could be that honda simplified the catalog so long ago they didn't feel it necessary to include the past part numbers. But if so i've never seen that be the case in all the years i've been looking at Honda parts, for instance, honda reformulated their headgaskets for the graphite composites in 1994 on the sohc non-vtec cars. So when you go to the catalog and look for a 1991 head gasket it says replaced by, then gives you the new part.

Maybe i'll go through a few of the others and see if i can find a different part number. Either way it would definitely make sense as to why they WOULD have different numbers. They really should since the auto trans weighs like 1200000000lbs more than the manual lol...

[Nafs Asdf]

2.0i-16 and Si are the b20 equipped ones. But now that I think of it they might have the same springs. The jdm epc only gave one spring (xxxxx-xxx-652, typing on my phone so don't have the exact part numbers here.) while the edm epc showed numbers 651 and 652.

I think Ill try to put together some sort of list of them later.

[Nafs Asdf]

Spent some time going through the different models in the EPC, so far I've compiled a list of all the carbed EDM models.

EDM to USDM translations:
LX = DX
EX = LX

LX covers both A16A and A20A models.
From what I understand, part numbers like 51401-SE0-631 and 51401-SE0-632 are essentially the same part, but by different manufacturers.

Also seems like bigger part number = stiffer spring, as the heavier models get them.

Springs
51401-SE0-003 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51401-SE0-004 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51401-SE0-631 - 87/88/89 LX | 86 EX (AT+ABS but no sunroof) | 87/88/89 EX (MT)
51401-SE0-632 - 87/88/89 LX | 86 EX (AT+ABS but no sunroof) | 87/88/89 EX (MT)
51401-SE0-641 - 87/88/89 EX (AT) | 87/88/89 EX (MT+sunroof)
51401-SE0-642 - 87/88/89 EX (AT) | 87/88/89 EX (MT+sunroof)
51401-SE0-651 - 88/89 EX (AT with cat and sunroof)
51401-SE0-652 - 88/89 EX (AT with cat and sunroof)

Shocks
51605-SE0-G01 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51605-SE0-G02 - 86/87 LX | 86 EX | 87 EX
51605-SE0-G03 - 88 LX | 88 EX
51605-SE0-G05 - 89 LX | 88 EX | 89 EX
51605-SE0-G11 - 89 LX | 89 EX


Still need to go through the EFI models, I'll get to that later.

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1166925,parttype,7512,a,Search%20for%20B ISHKO

I don't really think there is a whole lot of difference.


wp

[stezie]

You could have mine, I just need to get my lowering springs on the car first. Before that however, I need to find new shocks for the front.

Find me a front set of Koni reds and I'll ship you my old front springs. ;)


I was looking on Koni online catalogue.. and cant find any for CA5..

found these Ksports though..

http://www.coolcarpartsonline.com/coilovers/ksport-kontrol-pro-dampers/honda-accord-85-89-ksport-kontrol-pro-damper-coilovers-system-set-of-4

[stezie]

Spent some time going through the different models in the EPC, so far I've compiled a list of all the carbed EDM models.

EDM to USDM translations:
LX = DX
EX = LX

LX covers both A16A and A20A models.
From what I understand, part numbers like 51401-SE0-631 and 51401-SE0-632 are essentially the same part, but by different manufacturers.

Also seems like bigger part number = stiffer spring, as the heavier models get them.

Springs
51401-SE0-003 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51401-SE0-004 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51401-SE0-631 - 87/88/89 LX | 86 EX (AT+ABS but no sunroof) | 87/88/89 EX (MT)
51401-SE0-632 - 87/88/89 LX | 86 EX (AT+ABS but no sunroof) | 87/88/89 EX (MT)
51401-SE0-641 - 87/88/89 EX (AT) | 87/88/89 EX (MT+sunroof)
51401-SE0-642 - 87/88/89 EX (AT) | 87/88/89 EX (MT+sunroof)
51401-SE0-651 - 88/89 EX (AT with cat and sunroof)
51401-SE0-652 - 88/89 EX (AT with cat and sunroof)

Shocks
51605-SE0-G01 - 86 LX | 86 EX
51605-SE0-G02 - 86/87 LX | 86 EX | 87 EX
51605-SE0-G03 - 88 LX | 88 EX
51605-SE0-G05 - 89 LX | 88 EX | 89 EX
51605-SE0-G11 - 89 LX | 89 EX


Still need to go through the EFI models, I'll get to that later.


great detail. I can understand how heavier models would get a stiffer spring alright. unless the new parts catalog has all the end of production part numbers eliminated. and all the different suspension layouts have been consolidated into the one part... Would need to source an early parts catalog to find out for sure I think.

[Nafs Asdf]

I was looking on Koni online catalogue.. and cant find any for CA5..

found these Ksports though..

http://www.coolcarpartsonline.com/coilovers/ksport-kontrol-pro-dampers/honda-accord-85-89-ksport-kontrol-pro-damper-coilovers-system-set-of-4

That's because they're out of production, and as such hell of hard to find. I know about the ksports, but I already have a full set of springs and konis for the rear, I just need new shocks for the front.