Starting/Idling issues

[Harrison_Bergeron]

When I first went to check out the '89 LXi automatic, I wanted to buy it started right up and ran with no problems, but I did not drive it. When I went back two days later it took a long time with the ignition turned but eventually turned over, but ran very poorly, then died as soon as it was put into gear. After it died it would not crank over, the starter would turn, I could hear the fuel pump, but it would not turn over.

I bought the car anyway and towed it home. I took apart the air intake and found it was full off oil. I thought the oily air filter might have been choking the engine to stalling, so I started it without the filter. It started and ran, but died after being put in gear, and would not turn over after that.

Next I cleaned out the throttle body with a liberal amount of TB cleaner and a wire brush(it was really caked). This got it started and running well enough to get the car off the street and in my driveway, and it even continued starting without much issue.

I replaced the PCV and some hoses to try and prevent the oiling of the intake tract. Once it was all buttoned up from that I sat in it with the motor on and watched the tach as I revved a little. When you let off the gas the RPM does not fall smoothly, it hesitates at around 1500 then 1200, then back to 1000. This does not seem right.

Then I shifted it into gear from park. The RPM drop to what feels like is just above stalling, 650 to 700. The car shakes but does not die, so you can gas it and go.

After this I drove it around the block, no new issues were found, then I parked it in the driveway.

I gave the engine bay a once over to check my repairs and put away my tools so I could park in the garage. This took maybe 20 minutes. I got in the car to park it for the day and it would not start on the first crank, and I had to hold the second one for what felt like a good 15 seconds before it finally turned over.
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I think the starting once, dieing, and not starting again issue sounds like the TW sensor flooding the engine, I don't have a CEL though.

The poor idling down in park and neutral seems like it could be a dirty(fingers crossed) or broken IACV, or maybe a bad vacuum advance.

The falling idle when put in gear seems like it could be the IACV as well, or the manual troubleshooting guide says it could be the transmission shift sensor, or ecu. The manual says you need an ecu tester to test for the trans shift sensor, which I don't have.

Thoughts?

[Dr_Snooz]

I think the ECU or TCU would be a long shot. How long has the car been sitting?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I have no idea, the guy I bought it from said he bought it the week before and it broke down on his first trip over 10 miles, so he parked it. His story had several "fluctuations" as things progressed though, so it is anyone's guess, all I know is the the registration extension sticker said February, so it probably wasn't more than a month at most.

Do you have any idea where the transmission shift sensor is? Do you know what method the ECU uses to increase the idle when shifted into gear, is it the IACV?

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I tightened up an oil leak, and some other lines I had neglected from the PCV fix yesterday, and it started right up and ran better than it has since I bought it, but stalled when I put it in gear without gassing it. Then it wouldn't start again and the battery died while trying. I forgot to test the idling down issue.

So, the main issues as of now are low idle/stalling in gear, not restarting after previously having been run.

[[email protected]]

my car acted like that and the alternator was all rusted out inside, go figure

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I read further into the manual and found out that there is a doohickey in the black box responsible for raising the idle when put in gear, I spent the whole day pulling weeds yesterday so I could afford to rent a vacuum pump, so I should have that aspect figured out by the end of the week.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Update:
I couldn't get a vacuum pump, but I did some fiddling anyway and found some things.

First, It is starting repeatedly with no hesitation, so that is good.

I took the lid off the black box and one of the two vacuum filters was black and oily. I took it off and started the car, it seemed to have a little less idle change when being shifted into gear, but still some. Is there a way to clean the oil out of this line? Can I just spray some throttle body cleaner in it without damaging anything? If the line is sucking I don't understand how it got oily when it is sealed in the black box. Could the line have blown oil for some reason?

When it was still cold it seemed like the idle dropped when I applied the brakes.

I let the car stay running for the longest I have since I got it, about 10 minutes. When it got hot the idle dropped way low, -500, but it didn't seem to care about being shifted(idle stayed pretty much the same).

Should I get it hot and manually raise the idle via the screw?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

So, I removed the idle adjuster screw and sprayed tb cleaner down the hole like the manual says to do if the idle drops when the motor gets warm- now it doesn't start.

[Dr_Snooz]

Sounds like the PCV was pretty bad. If you had to wire brush the gunk off the throttle body butterfly, you probably have black gook spread all through the engine. You're doing a good job of things though. About the only other thing I'd do is pull off the throttle body and clean up as much as possible out of the intake. The nasty "doohickey" is probably related to the PCV mess, but some investigation is in order. Trace the vacuum line to see where it comes from and where it goes. The best way to clean the line is to replace it entirely. Just get some fuel line from Kragen and pop it in.

I would expect that things will slowly get better as you drive the car. Try a can of Techron or some kind of injector cleaner. Mostly, just keep on driving. Running good gas and practicing good maintenance will do wonders for it over time. Emphasis on over time. If you keep trying to fix a dirt problem, you can end up spending a lot of money and time and not really getting any results.

I used to be a real nazi about setting idle speed, doing it exactly like the manual says. Now I say just adjust it till it stops bugging you.

Not sure why you aren't starting. Try blowing some compressed air in there to see if you can dry it out.

Good luck with it.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I did take the idle screw out and left it out over night, with the hope that something was just flooded with tb cleaner. It took a few cranks, but did start today.

It did stall out and not want to start again, so I pulled the plugs. #3 & #4 (closest to PCV) were black. The guy I bought it from put new plugs in to try and get it to run, so there was no reason for them to be that way. I cleaned them and put them back, it started fine. I let it run for 20-30 minutes(I actually got to hear the fan for the first time), and it is doing a lot better. It even started up after being warm.

Now, the biggest idle issue is that when you rev and release the idle drops to almost stalling, then raises back up to 750-850rpm where it is supposed to be. Because things keep getting incrementally better I do believe that my problems are being caused by oil where it should not be, and that running it and cleaning things is the ticket.

I also believe that driving it will help clean out the system, but it is not registered yet, so the most I can do legally is run it in the drive way. I did put half a can of seafoam in the tank when I first started fiddling with things, just because I had it around. I have a can of B12 Chemtool, but I'll just keep that as my hail mary.

I think I will take the TB and maybe the whole intake manifold off to clean them, I agree that it seems the PCV really did a number on things.

What sucks is that I can't get the PCV to click like it is supposed to, so I don't even know if the problem is fixed.

[ecogabriel]

I am trying to make sense of the whole thread but I am depleted, so here it goes...

Idle drops when shifting into D: there is a solenoid in the black box that helps in keeping the idle speed. Check it for operation; yours is 89 and Snooz has the service manual for that model (link post somewhere here)...
IACV works when engine is under load (e.g. lights on, defroster on)... check service manual for details (mine is 86 LXi and has a different IACV... yours I think it is called EACV)

I could not adjust my idle with the screw in the TB: I injected TB cleaner through the screw hole to no avail. I took the TB out and removed hell of crap from its passages; now it works OK. YOu may need to get another o-ring for the screw though (I used one off the shelf from NAPA)

MY PCV did not click but I can smell oil vapors.... I could not even remove it.
Eventually, I removed it but then the hose that goes underneath it broke in several pieces as it was hardened as hard as glass... I managed to do a shade tree repair with hose and hose connectors by removing the oil separator from behind the engine (F.... PITA to remove) but eventually got it all together and... now my PCV works as it should...

Take it easy and be patient; it will take some work and time to get her straighten up and reverse years of neglect.

MY 1/2 cent....

[Harrison_Bergeron]

^
When I get my hands on a vacuum pump I have a list of things to check, one of which is the thing in the black box that adjusts the idle when put in gear. I had something come up and couldn't buy or rent one yet.

I need to remove the TB and clean further, but spraying down the adjuster hole did seem to help a little after the cleaner evaporated.

I have replaced the PCV, I broke stuff and mickey moused it back together. The PCV is brand new, but isn't clicking.
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I think that my major problem is the oil gunk from the bad PCV, before I move on to any further diagnostics I need to get the TB off and clean as thoroughly as possible. I am expecting good results from that, but am thinking my current issues with stalling after revving may be caused by a bad vacuum advance, so that is on the list of things to check when I get a vacuum pump.

[Dr_Snooz]

Remove the vacuum advance diaphragm from the distributor. Press the plunger down all the way, then cover the holes with your finger. If the plunger stays down, it works well enough not to bother with it.

[Bluntman]

I bet that Idle Air Control Valve is gunked up also. Mine started to idle a tiny bit bad on start up, I cleaned it, but that didn't get it for me. I bought a new one and idles like new.

After I cleaned the old one I let it dry over night before reassembly, but it may not have not dried fully, and didn't blow it out. But anyway buying a new one was a good investment for me, since this is a stock daily driver. It runs perfect.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Cool, I'll check that tomorrow.


Remove the vacuum advance diaphragm from the distributor. Press the plunger down all the way, then cover the holes with your finger. If the plunger stays down, it works well enough not to bother with it.