Brake Info!

[Tdurr]

All this I posted up on another site
I got this sticked on IA, and well I think they deserve a sticky on 3geez also.

How to bleed the brakes "The Right Way" >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_howto_bleedbrakes.shtml)<<
Info on "Warped" Brakes >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml)<<
Bedding Pads and Rotor Info >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedincontents.shtml)<<
How to pick out the right brake Upgrades >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakesystems_upgradeselections.shtml)<<
Info on upgrading the rear brakes >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_rearbrake_upgrades.shtml)<<
How to Remove uneven pad deposits >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_padremoval.shtml)<<

Some other Good reads >>Click (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml)<<


Happy stopping :thumbup:

[Dr_Snooz]

Good stuff. Thanks!

[Oldblueaccord]

Arn't they the guys that say "brake rotors don't warp" Thats always a sticking point with me not reading any of the links or anything.

[Tdurr]

yea thats the source. and after you read it it makes complete logical sense. I use to work at a shop and you could never visibly see rotors(with in spec) "wobble" on a lathe. and the amount of material you remove when they are tuned is so thin that if the rotors were out of round then turning it wouldn't help at all.

[Dr_Snooz]

The deposit idea makes sense, but I'll confess that I'm not entirely satisfied with it. Every Honda I've driven and other Honda drivers I know have trouble with wobbly front brakes. My Bimmer's brakes are always smooth as glass, even though I didn't bed them. My Blazer never wobbled either. None of my Dad's American cars wobbled. For me, it seems this problem is exclusive to Hondas. I don't know if that's because they use a goofy compound in their pads, undersized rotors or what. Maybe I'll start experimenting with different pad compounds to see if I can make it better.

[Tdurr]

it all depends on how you drive. I haven never had a problem with any of the rotors(that are within spec) on hondas down here. its always other random ass cars. ive seen everything from new cars(09 cars with less then 30k on them) have "warped" rotors to cars that have never had their rotors changed and the rotor broke off from the hub(that shit was crazy).

it also depends on the brand of the rotor also. driving type +different material + thickness +vent types will all play a factor in the "warping" of a rotor.

[guaynabo89]

I thik we had a long argument discussion about the whole doesnt warp cementite thing a while back.

[Dr_Snooz]

I thik we had a long argument discussion about the whole doesnt warp cementite thing a while back.

Care to provide a quick recap? I'd love to keep my brakes from wobbling.

[guaynabo89]

we never agreed and some believed that no matter how much you resurfaced rotors that the deposits left from the pads would always cause a wobble.

I disagree from personal experiance. While deposits might be inbedded into the rotors a machining of the surface and pad change has always resulted me in no wobble. This is after years of use as well. (or pulsating which was also discussed)

[cygnus x-1]

Care to provide a quick recap? I'd love to keep my brakes from wobbling.


The short answer is that rotors don't generally "warp". What happens is that the pad material gets deposited unevenly on the surface, creating spots that have more or less friction than other parts. The would make them pulse when you apply the brakes. Over time this leads to uneven rotor wear that makes them pulse even more. This is commonly mistaken for "warping".

To prevent uneven pad material deposition the pads and rotors need to be broken in properly. Not to mention correctly chosen for the application. Having the rotors resurfaced should clean off the deposits enough to make them usable again, provided they aren't too thin afterward.


C|

[guaynabo89]

we never agreed



lol

Personally I think they are both common. Right now my RL has deposits on the front rotors causing a slip/stick situation that I can feel. Most would confuse that with warped. The original owener simply had the pads replaced. The rotors are not warped.

My wifes car (2000 Accord) warped the rotors with the oem pad from overheating. Turned rotors replaced with better pad and problem solved.



You really have to know what your up against since they can be mistaken for one another.


I'm a firm beleiver in turning rotors though.:thumbup:

[Tdurr]

bump for a sticky.

[nswst8]

This is the reason my father would replace rotors with pads and then have the rotors resurfaced and store them in the garage. He never liked having to wait for the rotors to be resurfaced.

[Tdurr]

lol

Personally I think they are both common. Right now my RL has deposits on the front rotors causing a slip/stick situation that I can feel. Most would confuse that with warped. The original owener simply had the pads replaced. The rotors are not warped.

My wifes car (2000 Accord) warped the rotors with the oem pad from overheating. Turned rotors replaced with better pad and problem solved.



You really have to know what your up against since they can be mistaken for one another.


I'm a firm beleiver in turning rotors though.:thumbup:

eh the slip/stick feeling is just a different type of deposit build up. it would be more of a < shape and a "warped" rotor would be more of an ( shape. it creates a different feel in the pedals.

[guaynabo89]

my point being deposits could be easily mistaken for a warped rotor since pulsation through the brake pedal would be almost the same.

oh and I forgot to mention the heated pad c/rotor complete stop, which would leave an indentation on the rotor.

that would also send a pulsation through the brake pedal. Can be remidied by turning thevrotors as well :)

[Tdurr]

^^ did u read the links? when come to complete stop on a stupid hot rotor is when it leaves a deposit. the only way to even come close to physically warping a rotor is if it gets glowing hot and then have some sort of impact from the side(hitting the face), or along the edges of the rotor.

[guaynabo89]

lol

rotors can and do warp without being red hot. All that is needed is a sudden uneven change in temperature.


like I said we've had this discussion before. Not only on this board, but others as well.

Bottom line is pads can and do leave deposits on the rotor surface, but rotors do physically warp. It's basic properties of metal.


I can agree to disagree on this topic though. ;)

[nswst8]

Rotors do warp. At 46 and been doing brakes for more than 30 years I have taken a set or two in to be resurfaced and they were warped. This happened to me When we lived in Maryland back in the 70s.

[Tdurr]

lol

rotors can and do warp without being red hot. All that is needed is a sudden uneven change in temperature.


like I said we've had this discussion before. Not only on this board, but others as well.

Bottom line is pads can and do leave deposits on the rotor surface, but rotors do physically warp. It's basic properties of metal.


I can agree to disagree on this topic though. ;)


i can agree on that. but i guess i left out the "in spec" section of my reply. im mainly saying rotors that are in spec dont warp.

[Accordtheory]

my point being deposits could be easily mistaken for a warped rotor since pulsation through the brake pedal would be almost the same.

oh and I forgot to mention the heated pad c/rotor complete stop, which would leave an indentation on the rotor.

that would also send a pulsation through the brake pedal. Can be remidied by turning thevrotors as well :)

Different coeffcients of friction on different parts of the disk would not cause your brake pedal to pulsate. There would be nothing trying to move the caliper piston in or out.

Easiest way I know to show warped rotors is this test..just take an offramp like normal, 70mph or so, and pay attention as you hit the brakes. With your hand very lightly gripping the wheel, or maybe just your fingers on top of it, you will feel it try to move back and forth very quickly, like a shake, as you initially apply the brakes. It will only do this if the brakes are very lightly applied.

On the subject of the uneven deposit thing, I mostly call bs on that. If it is true, I'm sure all it would take to get rid of it would be a few hard applications of the brakes. I just don't see how deposits could form on a rotor while it is simultaneously being worn down.

[guaynabo89]

as far as being mistaken, to the average person (ie not car guy/gal) they might no be able to tell the difference.


as far as pad deposit I think it's only with certain types of pad material, not all.


I've gone through the bedding process on my RL and it still does it. Don't really care since an update to the brake system is coming for that car. :)

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm not sure what I think about this. There are days when I hit the brakes at 70 and it feels like the front end is going to fly apart. Then there are other days when it's like butter. Every Honda I've owned has been this way. I'm definitely going to be experimenting with different pad compounds in the future.

[stat1K]

a lot of what you feel has to do with the suspension setup as well.

but as for this argument on warping vs deposit, this same argument was made literally this time last year. i remember me and lx-incredible laughing about it at filibertos by my house in mesa, az.

[LX-incredible]

Yeah, where is the brake lord when we need him?

I've had zero issues with the drilled Brembo rotors and AEM pads. Everything else I've tried has been shit, except the PBRs with the Brembo blanks. Those bitches really grabbed; ate the rotors before they got the chance to warp (or build up cementite). :)

Believe what you want. I've found Chinese rotors usually tend to warp/wear faster and cost you more in the long run.

[Tdurr]

bump for a sticky.

and i still say its all the way you drive your car. I've seen cars on Chinese rotors for a while and not "warp" them. and ive seen new brand name rotors get "warped" in like 2 weeks. Its the driver 99.999% of the time.

[rebuild]

.

[Tdurr]

bump! still needs a sticky

[Dr_Snooz]

Stickied.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm definitely going to be experimenting with different pad compounds in the future.

Okay, I've experimented, and the Wagner QuickStop pads on the car now do NOT wobble and haven't for the 1000 miles or so that they've been on. The previous pads wobbled like mad. Then I replaced them with Beck Arnley ceramic pads. The Beck Arnley pads were terrifying and dangerous. The front end wobbled so bad I was afraid to drive it. They also heated up under the lightest load and faded bad. I put the previous set of pads back on (the very ones that were wobbling before) and they didn't wobble anymore. They had an occasional wobble toward the end of their life, but nothing like before. The current Wagners are doing good.

The rotors have not been turned during this time. So in my case at least, the wobble has been from pad deposition and not rotor warpage.

[conozo]

I didn't read the articles above but snooz I wonder if the two pads on the one rotor are gripping inconsistently around the rotor. Say the left pad is gripping better than the right would it pull the wheel left? I wonder if it does this uneven grip several times around the rotor rotation. This could explain why resurfacing the rotor fixes the problem because you are creating a even grip area around the rotor, it could explain switching pads caused it not to wobble. And in your case maybe the Beck and arnley pads did a little rotor resurfacing and fixed the rotor before you put the old pads back on.

[Oldblueaccord]

There is where brake compound makes a difference.

[Dr_Snooz]

I didn't read the articles above but snooz I wonder if the two pads on the one rotor are gripping inconsistently around the rotor. Say the left pad is gripping better than the right would it pull the wheel left? I wonder if it does this uneven grip several times around the rotor rotation. This could explain why resurfacing the rotor fixes the problem because you are creating a even grip area around the rotor, it could explain switching pads caused it not to wobble. And in your case maybe the Beck and arnley pads did a little rotor resurfacing and fixed the rotor before you put the old pads back on.

I couldn't say really. To the best of my knowledge, the front calipers are original. The rears are junkyard scores. I'm sure there is a lot of slop in everything, so it could be causing problems in the way you describe. I agree that the Beck Arnley pads scoured the rotors clean. That's the least they could do, given that they didn't work at all for braking. The brake system is another sub-system due for a major refresh after I've done the steering. That should eliminate any residual problems from uneven grabbing, etc. I'm not sure when I'll get to it, but it's on the list.

I was following up on my pledge in a previous post here to experiment with pad types. There was a debate in this thread as to whether brake wobble was caused by pad compound or rotor warping. I seem to have the worst problem with it, and I wanted to see if changing pad compounds would make a difference. It does. It does.

The moral of the story is that if you're having a lot of brake wobble, change your pad compound.

[InAccordance]

I tried ceramic pads and let me tell you they are not worth it. The ONLY nice thing is there is zero dust. Pads I have aren't even 6 months old and already causing problems. Pass rotor is warped bad.
I really am pushing to go for those Wilwoods cause this is the 2nd set of calipers and 3rd set of pads I've gone through and the stock stuff just isn't cutting it anymore. Either I get warped rotors or pads that wear unevenly or sticky calipers that cause one side to wear faster than the other.
Can't blame the master cylinder cause it's new, booster is in great shape, and prop valve is fine.
Hydraulic hoses on all 4 wheels were replaced 6 months ago as well so can't blame those.
I think it's time to ditch the made in china crap.

[Dr_Snooz]

Replace your entire caliper assembly if you haven't (caliper, guide pins and mounting bracket). Your guide pins are hanging up. If you inspect them, you'll probably find that they are worn badly. You should be cleaning and re-greasing them as part of any pad replacement, if you don't know that already. Unfortunately, if your guide pins are really bad, they'll chew up the bushings and leave a lot of slop in the caliper which causes unpredictable braking, weird pedal feel, etc. It will be an ongoing mess. Hopefully the rebuilder replaces all that before selling you the parts so you can get the problem properly solved.

You want this:
https://www.rockauto.com/info/27/FRC3651_FRO__ra_p.jpg

Not this:
https://www.rockauto.com/info/27/RC3658_FRO__ra_p.jpg

I'm actually pretty gentle on brakes. I always brake early. I try to use engine and clutch braking as much as possible and prefer to go fast around a corner (flinging my groceries all over the car) than to brake into it. The ongoing brake wobble has me pretty perplexed and it could very well be that I have some guide pin bushing slop contributing to this too. There just comes a point where you have to pull all that old stuff out and replace it with new parts.

[Oldblueaccord]

All the links just goto the Stoptech homepage now.

[Dr_Snooz]

13,000 miles on the Wagners with ZERO wobble. I'm running them on multiple cars and have ZERO wobble on any car anymore. Thank goodness!

I did find a warped rotor in the 4g recently. (It was a rear rotor, oddly). It was beyond the service limit, which thinking back, is the only time I've ever had rotors warp.

[Oldblueaccord]

Waggy rotors or the pads?

[ShiRen]

The Wagner pads are probably the best metallic pads you can get because I don't think EBC makes stock pads for us. Rotors are pretty much just rotors

I am also using Wanger pads... Couldn't tell you how long theyve been there. 5k, 10k, I have for sure slept since then. I don't monitor my pad life because I use them very conservatively and I just replace them whenever I feel like.

[Oldblueaccord]

https://www.summitracing.com/search/year/1988/make/honda/model/accord/part-type/brake-pads?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Default

Summits list EBC for the D409 pad for the 10.3 inch rotors cars.

EDIT:

I have been a pretty big fan of the EBC brake pads over the years,burned thru many a Green stuff. I currently have Yellow stuff on the Honda and on my SRT Jeep and I am not as impressed. They are not any better than the Brembo pads on my Jeep except they dust less.

On the Honda they do grip better the hotter they get but its nearly impossible to get them hot enough to notice unless Im on the Dragon and abusing my brakes on purpose.