New Engine Break In Procedure ~ With Poll ~

[mushroom_toy]

Alright so what is everyones opinion. I already know Tim's lol. Some say beat on it and give it hell for 20 miles, others and this is along my train of thinking say to baby it for the first 500. ie. keep it under 2500rpm city driving. What would yall do. Starting from initial startup. :)

[89T]

Alright so what is everyones opinion. I already know Tim's lol. Some say beat on it and give it hell for 20 miles, others and this is along my train of thinking say to baby it for the first 500. ie. keep it under 2500rpm city driving. What would yall do. Starting from initial startup. :)
how i did mine.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[89T]

don't ever granny that bitch.

[2drSE-i]

From what I'm to understand thats the way to do it. Bisi sticks his on the dyno and just runs it for 1000 miles at altering RPMs.

[paul]

Call up / e-mail some engine builders regarding break-in; the vast majority should recommend the "don't go easy" route...

[89T]

and loads...

dude i ran mine hard after the initial and I came out with under 4% leak down a year later.
I dont fuck around i run mine hard every time out.

[89T]

pauls right,call them up.

think nhra----dragsters.3-4000 hp broken in, in the pitt's.

[mushroom_toy]

True. Im calling the place where I got my engine bored out and such and gonna ask the resident Honda expert tomorrow. Also think about the race engines though. A lot of professional builders have money to spend on a new engine ever 1-4 trips down the track, so getting the engine built and broken in fast as hell is there main thing. Doesnt matter about wear, because theyll be breaking it down again fast anyway.

[mushroom_toy]

And people vote in the poll lol. Trying to see if itll turn out 50/50 like every other forum/website ive seen today lol.

[Dr_Snooz]

Do the Motoman break-in.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71124&highlight=motoman

[Tdurr]

True. Im calling the place where I got my engine bored out and such and gonna ask the resident Honda expert tomorrow. Also think about the race engines though. A lot of professional builders have money to spend on a new engine ever 1-4 trips down the track, so getting the engine built and broken in fast as hell is there main thing. Doesnt matter about wear, because theyll be breaking it down again fast anyway.



Actually no they don't have the funs to keep rebuilding motors. They usually wear other parts of the motors out or mess up in the build process/random part failure.

look at JJspec's teg. A d-series with a huge ass turbo lasted lots of passes on a stock rebuilt bottom end with a GREAT tune.


And Luke i told you just about everything these guys said via text today. I told you i did my research YEARS ago. Before i even thought about getting the accord, and before finding out it had 83miles on a FRESH rebuild.

[AccordB20A]

it seems giving the engine the beat down is the way to go. But is it different on different engines, like how a b20a has a bad rod/stroke ratio??

[paul]

it seems giving the engine the beat down is the way to go. But is it different on different engines, like how a b20a has a bad rod/stroke ratio??

I'd highly doubt the procedure would differ to a undersquare vs oversquare engine, the only real difference would be a slightly faster piston speed in the undersquare one...

[2oodoor]

i wouldnt beat on it to hard remember is aint a high revver design, but baby it is not good either, just listen and observe what it is doing until bugs worked out.
decelerating on grades is good, up hill then a long coast down then up. breaks in rings good. rinse lather repeat.
project sounds like it is moving along nice... awesome:cheers:

[cygnus x-1]

If you're putting in a new cam and rockers then you might want to let it run at a high idle for a few minutes before you open it up. Also consider using Shell Rotella-T or another diesel type oil that has higher levels of zinc phosphate to keep the cam from wearing too much during break in.

If you aren't using a new cam and rockers then fire it up and flog away.


C|

[guaynabo89]

Looad is they key.

Dont try and brake it, but make sure theres somewot action going on.

[mushroom_toy]

If you're putting in a new cam and rockers then you might want to let it run at a high idle for a few minutes before you open it up. Also consider using Shell Rotella-T or another diesel type oil that has higher levels of zinc phosphate to keep the cam from wearing too much during break in.

If you aren't using a new cam and rockers then fire it up and flog away.


C|

I use rotella in my bike, and I might use it for every oil change in the car on the new engine as well. Its great oil in my book. :) But yeah running new cam, used rockers.

[mushroom_toy]

Looad is they key.

Dont try and brake it, but make sure theres somewot action going on.

under load huh....maybe I should hook my trailer up with the bike on it. :)

[2drSE-i]

Torco makes a KICK ASS break in oil. Check out Bisi's 700HP Wagovan build for details.

[Tdurr]

Torco makes a KICK ASS break in oil. Check out Bisi's 700HP Wagovan build for details.

im a fan of Royal purple, so i would say use some of their break in oil haha....

and isnt the cam reground not new?

[mushroom_toy]

Nah I bought the new one not reground.

[Dr_Snooz]

im a fan of Royal purple, so i would say use some of their break in oil haha....

and isnt the cam reground not new?

Probably want to do the first 1,000 miles or so with a regular, non-synthetic oil. The synthetic oils are too slick and will keep the rings from breaking in.

[Tdurr]

no no, snooz they have special oil for breaking in a motor. Then after the first oil change ur switch to the regular stuff.

http://www.royalpurple.com/productsi/break-in-oil.jpg

[Dr_Snooz]

Oops. My mistake.

[Tdurr]

hehe is all good man. not alot of ppl kno that.

[2oodoor]

those laboratory blends are fine and I am sure they work but they are not required to accomplish the job and it depends on how close the bottom line is being watched $$
Back to topic, in my job I get to see a lot of new vehicle and follow their history. Knowing how some of them were treated in their maiden voyage, heh.. I would say hammering the piss out them like you stole it is not advisable but letting them learn how they will be driven isn't hurting anything. Remember those cold dark nights you depend on it to get you back to the house, and remember too how good it feels not to have to pop the hood to check shit every day.

[Accordtheory]

It's been a while since I read the motoman article, but I agree with the basic idea. However, the specifics are pretty fuzzy. Why do you only have a certain "window"? (I've seen motors that had mild surface rust in the cylinders break back in with over 100k on them) What about moly coated rings? The coating is what, a few thousanths thick? Is it the rings that wear to the walls, or the walls that wear to the rings How does the finish hone, and type of rings affect this?
Is it going out on a limb to say that with a modern motor and moly coated rings, there is hardly even any break in period at all?
I've heard the factory recommended break in for the S2000 or a wrx is pretty similar to the motoman thing. When I took a class in aircraft motors years ago, the teacher said that he'd fly the plane right away, not just run it on the ground under partial load. So he subscribed to the motoman theory too.

When I broke in the b series motor that I built for my accord, I let it run for a few minutes, changed the oil, then took it out and alternately accelerated and let off, increasing the rpm each time until I was at the redline in 3rd. Whole thing took about 20 minutes. Then I drove the car from california to south dakota...

[CrzyTuning]

Torco makes a KICK ASS break in oil.

Torco Break-In Oil is freaking AMAZING. I'm not a Bisi follower by any means, but he's right on the money with this one. I can't wait to try the rest of the oils.

I've broken in about 6 motors now, 5 of them built by me. The key here isn't to beat on it, or to go easy. It's to have enough loading for the rings to be able to move around and seal against the cylinder walls.

But more importantly than anything else is having correct air/fuel and timing. Too lean and you'll heat the rings/pistons too much and deform them and they'll never seal 100%. Too rich and you'll wash out any oil on the cylinder walls. What people don't realize is that your break-in period starts as soon as you start the motor for the first time. Every second you let the car idle at a bad air/fuel mixture is potentially ruining your ring seal. Don't drive your car around town, don't drive it to your tuner, don't even move it.

Now, I know it's not always feasible to take your car to your tuner right away, and you'll want to make sure nothing leaks before you even do that. If you can't tune your motor right away, then I suggest using a stock ecu and having a perfectly working o2 sensor. This will get the car idling close to optimal afr. This will only work with motors that are close to stock. Higher compression and/or bigger cams I simply recommend waiting until you get to your tuner.

I start the car up and start tuning right away. I let the motor warm up fully while I check for leaks and anything else that may be wrong. I then let the motor cool down and I recheck valve lash(this is huge part most people miss). At this point, if you're not 100% confident in your motors cleanliness then I suggest changing the oil.
I then begin with tuning the motor. I drive it normally WITHOUT keeping it at a constant RPM or load while I get a good base going. Once I feel my map is fairly close to what I think the motor wants, we being doing WOT pulls in 3rd or 4th gear. The first pull stopping at 4k and every other pull increasing by 1k. After every pull, decelerate the car in gear. If at any point the afrs go bad, I immediately let off and make changes.

I've recently starting using that TBO and I've never had a motor break-in so easy and quickly. I used to use the cheapest oil for break-in and change it after start up, 500 miles, 1.5k miles and 3k miles. Now, its TBO for entire break-in period and then you can go to whichever oil you want and change at whatever mileage you want.

[Tdurr]

^^ good info there.

[OldSchool86]

Believe it or not an engine will wear to how it has been driven. If you run an engine hard that has always been ran hard it will last longer than an engine that has always been babied and then ran hard afterwards. It’s a shock to the engine to do that. It puts every aspect of the engine under pressures and conditions that it’s not use to or has never seen before. Oh and I've worked with some of those oil companies before and i know from personal inside experience that most of it is gimmick. But it will always sell as long has people are willing to buy it and believe it works

[accordion89]

if you spent $40,000 on a new car, would you treat it like $2,000 car, would you cook a digiorno pizza for 4 minutes?

[OldSchool86]

if you spent $40,000 on a new car, would you treat it like $2,000 car, would you cook a digiorno pizza for 4 minutes?
what I'm saying is if you take a brand new $40,000 car and never take it over 4500 rpm's then you sell it to a guy when it has i dont know 160,000 miles on it. now said guy starts running it to like 75-8000 alot it will take a shit alot faster than an engine that has alway been ran at that rpm.
Well I’ll just leave you with this there something called “engine cylinder glazing” that occurs when an engine has been ran excessively at low rpms. Just look up engine cylinder glazing

[2drSE-i]

Heres a good read, first thing that came up when i googled the above
http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

[Hauntd ca3]

engine run in is always going to be a subject where someone has there own ideas on whats best.
from reading good tech articles, if you have access to a dyno and an experienced operator, take the car to them and let them do it. its worth the few hundy it will cost.
if you dont have access to a dyno, a 100 miles of hilly roads is the next best thing. you want to make the motor work but you dont want to wring its neck for the first few hundred miles.
if you are going to use the road method, just keep an eye on the gauges and kill the motor if shit starts to look to unusual. ie, temps getting to high or oil pressure dropping off.
a new motor will run a touch warmer than usual from the extra friction in the bores but shouldnt run to hot.
is a good idea to have a friend follow you while you do it just in case.

[Dr_Snooz]

Heres a good read, first thing that came up when i googled the above
http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

Really good article. Thanks!

[2drSE-i]

Really good article. Thanks!

Yea i enjoyed it too

[OldSchool86]

engine run in is always going to be a subject where someone has there own ideas on whats best.
from reading good tech articles, if you have access to a dyno and an experienced operator, take the car to them and let them do it. its worth the few hundy it will cost.
if you dont have access to a dyno, a 100 miles of hilly roads is the next best thing. you want to make the motor work but you dont want to wring its neck for the first few hundred miles.
if you are going to use the road method, just keep an eye on the gauges and kill the motor if shit starts to look to unusual. ie, temps getting to high or oil pressure dropping off.
a new motor will run a touch warmer than usual from the extra friction in the bores but shouldnt run to hot.
is a good idea to have a friend follow you while you do it just in case.
This is good advice here. The Hills is how I would break one in, like some rough s3x, don't break her neck, but give it to her good.

[Civic Accord Honda]

what I'm saying is if you take a brand new $40,000 car and never take it over 4500 rpm's then you sell it to a guy when it has i dont know 160,000 miles on it. now said guy starts running it to like 75-8000 alot it will take a shit alot faster than an engine that has alway been ran at that rpm.
Well I’ll just leave you with this there something called “engine cylinder glazing” that occurs when an engine has been ran excessively at low rpms. Just look up engine cylinder glazing


+1, my civic was owned by a middle aged women(so i know that car was not going up to redline ) and then sold to a teenage girl who only put 800miles on it so idk went on it then, but then i got it, it had 160k miles on it, by 180k miles the rings were blown on in it from beating the piss out of it and it was a shock to the engine.

[OldSchool86]

:thumbup:

[lostforawhile]

the point of putting the cross hatch hone on the cylinder walls,is to break in the rings,so they exactly match the walls, if you baby the car until the cross hatch is gone, it will never seat the rings, it will usually still show, but it will be worn down enough to stop affecting the ring seat. the important thing is to run it in, then change the oil and filter, then drive it for a while and change the filter again, metal is normal during break in, the filter will catch it, but you need to change the filter. there are also break in oils made, never tried them myself, I believe they allow a little bit more friction t allow break in, and NEVER try to break in with synthetic oil, it just won't work.

[OldSchool86]

the point of putting the cross hatch hone on the cylinder walls,is to break in the rings,so they exactly match the walls, if you baby the car until the cross hatch is gone, it will never seat the rings, it will usually still show, but it will be worn down enough to stop affecting the ring seat. the important thing is to run it in, then change the oil and filter, then drive it for a while and change the filter again, metal is normal during break in, the filter will catch it, but you need to change the filter. there are also break in oils made, never tried them myself, I believe they allow a little bit more friction t allow break in, and NEVER try to break in with synthetic oil, it just won't work.
Very true lost. you is a smart Georgia boy

[DrGenerico]

[Very cool, somewhere in the far future when my wife forces me to buy a new car I will remember this thread, unless she makes me get a volvo station wagon in which case I will choose to forget anything and everything maintenance related.

[Dr_Snooz]

Lol.

[BITESIZE]

Get on it hard as fuck. If you built her right, your engine will scratch your back. If it blows up, pay some one to rebuild it like it deserves.

[Dr_Snooz]

Here's what I don't understand. Everyone in the "drive it hard" crowd seems to agree that putting a load on the engine will push the rings against the cylinder walls and improve ring seal. How do we know, though, that putting load on the engine doesn't push the rings in the opposite direction? Why does load increase ring seal? I would think it would increase blowby.

Any thoughts?

(I broke mine in with the Motoman method by the way, and it runs great).

[lostforawhile]

Here's what I don't understand. Everyone in the "drive it hard" crowd seems to agree that putting a load on the engine will push the rings against the cylinder walls and improve ring seal. How do we know, though, that putting load on the engine doesn't push the rings in the opposite direction? Why does load increase ring seal? I would think it would increase blowby.

Any thoughts?

(I broke mine in with the Motoman method by the way, and it runs great).

because the cross hatch put on the cyl walls is what helps match the rings to the bore, the crosshatch you see on a torn down engine is just whats left of it after the bore and rings have worn together. a new engine will use oil and have increased blowby and less compression until it's broken in, thats normal. the reason we know the rings expand, is they have tension on them, when you put them in a ring compressor, you are pushing the gaps closer together, to slide the piston into the bore, once they slide into the bore, they expand back outward against the walls of the cylinder. they are a special tempered spring steel, one of the things that can happen in a severely overheated engine, is those rings get so hot, they lose their properties, and no longer act like springs. when this happens, you lose compression, lose oil control and other bad things

[Civic Accord Honda]

wait, overheating kills rings? , wonder if thats why i have no compression lol

[lostforawhile]

wait, overheating kills rings? , wonder if thats why i have no compression lol

if it gets hot enough, the rings lose their temper and no longer seal agaist the cyl walls, it takes bad overheating though, or frequent overheating

[Civic Accord Honda]

i had frequent over heating, like 4 times a day for awhile and appeared to be no reason for it other then it was 115 out (only thing i can think of is there was excessive air in the system) and the engine has around 300k on it , so it probably did make the rings worse then they already were, oh well as long as it still starts and goes until i can find something else

[jigga89SEi]

I'm now the engine builder at my shop.. and when I run the engines I build. We run them hard from start-up.. granted most of the engines I run are diesels, break in theory is the same. I cant tell yall anything that hasnt been said in this thread already. Run it hard after your sure it is running proper. You need to seat the rings. Low rpms ie. To much idle, and babying, will lead to glazing and or blow by(wet stacking).

[lostforawhile]

i had frequent over heating, like 4 times a day for awhile and appeared to be no reason for it other then it was 115 out (only thing i can think of is there was excessive air in the system) and the engine has around 300k on it , so it probably did make the rings worse then they already were, oh well as long as it still starts and goes until i can find something else
your rings probably lost their tension by now.

[Dr_Snooz]

because the cross hatch put on the cyl walls is what helps match the rings to the bore, the crosshatch you see on a torn down engine is just whats left of it after the bore and rings have worn together. a new engine will use oil and have increased blowby and less compression until it's broken in, thats normal. the reason we know the rings expand, is they have tension on them, when you put them in a ring compressor, you are pushing the gaps closer together, to slide the piston into the bore, once they slide into the bore, they expand back outward against the walls of the cylinder. they are a special tempered spring steel, one of the things that can happen in a severely overheated engine, is those rings get so hot, they lose their properties, and no longer act like springs. when this happens, you lose compression, lose oil control and other bad things

Let me rephrase the question. Motoman says that by pushing a new engine hard, you are forcing the rings against the piston walls, improving bed-in. Has that been proven? How can you be sure you aren't pushing the rings AWAY from the piston walls when you run it hard?

[Bass Man]

My machinest, who's been building motors for 43 years, told me to go relatively easy on the motor we just built for my dad's Samurai...

[lostforawhile]

Let me rephrase the question. Motoman says that by pushing a new engine hard, you are forcing the rings against the piston walls, improving bed-in. Has that been proven? How can you be sure you aren't pushing the rings AWAY from the piston walls when you run it hard?Ok, the reason the cross hatch is put on the cyl walls, is when the engine is new, the rings, and the cyl walls don't fit together perfectly, the rings are actually slightly bigger then the cyl walls, this is the reason it's important to have the gap perfect. The expansion of the rings when hot is calculated into this gap. the rings are made out of a tempered spring steel that maintains it's spring state under normal conditions, in other words, the rings are always pushing against the cyl walls. they always want to expand outwards, sort of like a snap ring. the crosshatch is put on the cyl walls to generate friction when the engine is new. This friction helps to wear the rings and cyl walls together to create the best possible seal. if you baby the car too much, the crosshatch won't be able to do it's job, and wear the rings to match the bore. that crosshatch only lasts so long. you still see it on tear down, but what you are seeing is the part of the cross hatch below the surface of the cyl walls. when the cross hatch is put on, it raises metal from the walls of the cyl, almost like a knurl. it will wear to a certain point when everything is matched, then stay in that state. It's also very important to NOT use synthetic oil during break in. It's so good at preventing friction that it prevents the friction needed to allow parts to wear together.

[lostforawhile]

My machinest, who's been building motors for 43 years, told me to go relatively easy on the motor we just built for my dad's Samurai...

it's a big debate right now, some believe in pushing the engine, some believe in babying it. a lot of people have heard so long that the engine has to be babied, they just automatically believe it. There's a lot more known now about what actually happens inside of an engine, then used to be known.

[jigga89SEi]

The only reason to baby an engine after a build, would be if there are alot of perf. Parts. It you change engine geometry and there's a chance your calculations are off, Id go easy on first start up, until the engine is at operating temp, oil pressure is stable and your sure there are no leaks. If your engine builder tells you to baby it, Id be concerned with their build,(to me, thats a lack of confidence in the work). If all the parts are matched properly and the engine is assembled correct you shouldn't have to worry about the engine grenading, unless your running boost un-tuned.

[lostforawhile]

The only reason to baby an engine after a build, would be if there are alot of perf. Parts. It you change engine geometry and there's a chance your calculations are off, Id go easy on first start up, until the engine is at operating temp, oil pressure is stable and your sure there are no leaks. If your engine builder tells you to baby it, Id be concerned with their build,(to me, thats a lack of confidence in the work). If all the parts are matched properly and the engine is assembled correct you shouldn't have to worry about the engine grenading, unless your running boost un-tuned.

you should do that anyway, I think what they mean by babying it is not pushing the engine once you start driving it.

[jigga89SEi]

you should do that anyway, I think what they mean by babying it is not pushing the engine once you start driving it.

I understand that.. I'm not saying start it with the throttle wide open from the get go. But if you plan on pushing it anyways start from the begining. If something is gonna break, its gonna break whether your at 1500rpm or wot. Once your sure there's no issues, beat that bitch, make sure you break them rings in good or youll be rebuilding real soon.

[Bass Man]

I always told people to baby their engine after i put a new head gasket in, for some reason... I kinda did a mix of both for this new motor. Got on it real hard up to 4k then eased off. Did that for about an hour on first start up. Well, I let it idle for about 20 minutes before that, but I drove it on the first start up.

[Bass Man]

Another things. Don't put too much assembly lube on your bearings. Too much can fill the holes and cuz lack of oil distribution. Another very experienced builder told me that... He helped with this motor and it's been beat on hard and still sounds great.

[jigga89SEi]

Can never put a motor together too clean or too greasy... only exception to this is if you do not plan on starting the engine for awhile, as Bass Man said it'll clog passages.. but if its not sitting for longer then a month, glob that shit on..

[mushroom_toy]

Unfortunately its gonna be sitting for a while...and i put a ton of lube on...lol. oh well. unfortunately were moving so I now have no concrete to work on...dont know when ill be able to drop the motor in.

[2oodoor]

that is unfortunate to hear MushroomToy, it will be just as fun later though...

as for break in, I have the opportunity to see a lot of new vehicles go thru their lifespans, some in severe service. From what I have seen the ones that get beat on right at the christening journey, usually are the ones that start using oil first and get really noisy on cold start ups. Still they keep running and running and running, BECAUSE they get lube service regularly and quality oil is used.

[Dr_Snooz]

as for break in, I have the opportunity to see a lot of new vehicles go thru their lifespans, some in severe service. From what I have seen the ones that get beat on right at the christening journey, usually are the ones that start using oil first and get really noisy on cold start ups. Still they keep running and running and running, BECAUSE they get lube service regularly and quality oil is used.

You raise an interesting point. Do you think this has to do with break in or something else, like generally abusive ownership? Just from reading the poll, I think Mushroom is talking about a controlled break in of full throttle accelerations followed by full decelerations which is hardly a "drive it like you stole it" break in. Is the oil consumption from the rings, valve seals or what? Is the noise from the bottom end or the top end?


Ok, the reason the cross hatch is put on the cyl walls, is when the engine is new, the rings, and the cyl walls don't fit together perfectly, the rings are actually slightly bigger then the cyl walls, this is the reason it's important to have the gap perfect. The expansion of the rings when hot is calculated into this gap. the rings are made out of a tempered spring steel that maintains it's spring state under normal conditions, in other words, the rings are always pushing against the cyl walls. they always want to expand outwards, sort of like a snap ring. the crosshatch is put on the cyl walls to generate friction when the engine is new. This friction helps to wear the rings and cyl walls together to create the best possible seal. if you baby the car too much, the crosshatch won't be able to do it's job, and wear the rings to match the bore. that crosshatch only lasts so long. you still see it on tear down, but what you are seeing is the part of the cross hatch below the surface of the cyl walls. when the cross hatch is put on, it raises metal from the walls of the cyl, almost like a knurl. it will wear to a certain point when everything is matched, then stay in that state. It's also very important to NOT use synthetic oil during break in. It's so good at preventing friction that it prevents the friction needed to allow parts to wear together.

Either I'm asking the question badly or no one has read the Motoman procedure. I understand how rings work. That's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking about how a controlled hard break in procedure works on the rings. Does it improve ring seal or make it worse? Here's the question again:


Motoman says that by pushing a new engine hard, you are forcing the rings against the piston walls, improving bed-in. Has that been proven? How can you be sure you aren't pushing the rings AWAY from the piston walls when you run it hard?

[lostforawhile]

You raise an interesting point. Do you think this has to do with break in or something else, like generally abusive ownership? Just from reading the poll, I think Mushroom is talking about a controlled break in of full throttle accelerations followed by full decelerations which is hardly a "drive it like you stole it" break in. Is the oil consumption from the rings, valve seals or what? Is the noise from the bottom end or the top end?



Either I'm asking the question badly or no one has read the Motoman procedure. I understand how rings work. That's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking about how a controlled hard break in procedure works on the rings. Does it improve ring seal or make it worse? Here's the question again:

the ring seal is improved because you are using the cross hatch to make sure the rings are seated properly before it's gone. it only lasts a short time

[Accordtheory]

Lostforawhile, you're completely missing Dr Snooz' question. It has absolutely nothing to do with the crosshatch, or anything else you've said. It has to do with how a piston ring actually works, which has not been explained properly in this thread.

A piston ring does not seal solely as a function of its spring pressure, it seals also as a function of cylinder pressure. If you look at how a ring, piston, and cylinder fit together, you can see what the sealing surfaces are and look at the forces exerted on them. The cylinder pressure pushes the ring down against the bottom of the ring land, and also pushes the ring outward, by getting into the gap between the back of the ring and the piston, through the gap created between the top of the ring and the top of the ring land from the cylinder pressure pushing the ring down. For improved sealing, you can use a piston with gas ports. Gas port are little holes drilled through the top of the piston to direct the cylinder pressure down to the ring land directly, to push on the ring more.

Btw, that whole "my car was babied so now it's life is shorter when I beat on it" thing, that makes no sense and is not true.

[Accordtheory]

what I'm saying is if you take a brand new $40,000 car and never take it over 4500 rpm's then you sell it to a guy when it has i dont know 160,000 miles on it. now said guy starts running it to like 75-8000 alot it will take a shit alot faster than an engine that has alway been ran at that rpm.
Well I’ll just leave you with this there something called “engine cylinder glazing” that occurs when an engine has been ran excessively at low rpms. Just look up engine cylinder glazing


Yeah, you say "glazing", and then you don't explain at all whatsoever how this theory of yours could apply to the situation you described. A car driven relatively easily, kept under 4500rpm with 160k on it will Not have "glazed" cylinder walls, and the same car, all other things equal, if frequently taken to 7.5-8krpm for 160k miles would have a lot more wear on the rings and the cylinders, and this would be easily measurable.

[Dr_Snooz]

Lostforawhile, you're completely missing Dr Snooz' question. It has absolutely nothing to do with the crosshatch, or anything else you've said. It has to do with how a piston ring actually works, which has not been explained properly in this thread.

A piston ring does not seal solely as a function of its spring pressure, it seals also as a function of cylinder pressure. If you look at how a ring, piston, and cylinder fit together, you can see what the sealing surfaces are and look at the forces exerted on them. The cylinder pressure pushes the ring down against the bottom of the ring land, and also pushes the ring outward, by getting into the gap between the back of the ring and the piston, through the gap created between the top of the ring and the top of the ring land from the cylinder pressure pushing the ring down. For improved sealing, you can use a piston with gas ports. Gas port are little holes drilled through the top of the piston to direct the cylinder pressure down to the ring land directly, to push on the ring more.

Btw, that whole "my car was babied so now it's life is shorter when I beat on it" thing, that makes no sense and is not true.

THANK you! :bow: That makes sense. I'm not entirely convinced that some of it isn't trying to blow by, but I'll have more to think about now.

[drock]

it's always smart during any break in period on any engine to run it under a certain rpm range. in this situation, 2500 is ideal. 500 miles is about right wether it's the engine, tranny, or clutch. after that your good to go.

[rocket280z]

I stumbled across this thread by accident really. It's always interesting to read what people think on topics like this. Anyway, I thought I would add what I've learned. I went to school for automotive technology 20yrs ago. So, what I will say is based on that and what I have learned since.

First of all, follow what the original engine manufacturer says to do. They designed it, they have millions invested and riding on their design. They know, better than anyone else, how to handle their product. You will also find that, in most cases, the instructions for aftermarket parts will fall within reasonable limits of what the manufacturer suggests for the stock motor.

So, unless the manufacturer says to do WOT(Wide Open Throttle) runs don't! Also, keep the RPMs below 4000ish. The main reasons why are:
1.Vibration: Until parts are mated together, there will be little vibrations as the parts try to find their wear pattern. A good example is the piston rings, they will be vibrating, up and down, in the rings lands. The best ways to control these vibrations are to use controlled RPMs and engine Vacuum. This is why manufacturers usually say that the engine should be run between 2000-3000RPM while varying RPM. Much like you do when normally driving the car. Also common recommendation for cam break-in, which you usually do right after start up, while the vehicle is parked. Most engines make great(20+in) vacuum at these RPMs, which will pull on the rings minimizing the vibrations. Of course there's always the forces pushing the rings down, in the lands, on the Compression, Power, and exhaust strokes(as mentioned by other folks here). Also at the recommended RPMs, most engines will be running 30psi of oil pressure. That makes for a manageable amount of oil for the rings to control.
2.Oil control: Of course the engine makes great vacuum at 5000RPM! Yes most of them do. But, until the Compression rings and Oil Control rings get seated properly, they can't do a good enough job of scrubbing the oil off the walls of the cylinders. So, if you run the engine at high RPMs for too long, too much oil will get past the Oil Control rings and wash out the Compression rings, and make them slip too much. This happens anyway, when the engine is new. That's why it's “normal” for a new engine to consume oil. But, if it happens too much, during the break in period, the rings may never mate properly. Naturally that can happen to the bearings as well, and other parts, if you're breaking them in at 60psi of oil pressure as you will likely have at high RPMs.

Too much fuel is not good for rings either. So, tuning is important as a few other have pointed out. Most modern(fuel injected) engines won't be flooding the rings though.

[Ichiban]

But...piston rings are splash lubricated...

[lostforawhile]

I stumbled across this thread by accident really. It's always interesting to read what people think on topics like this. Anyway, I thought I would add what I've learned. I went to school for automotive technology 20yrs ago. So, what I will say is based on that and what I have learned since.

First of all, follow what the original engine manufacturer says to do. They designed it, they have millions invested and riding on their design. They know, better than anyone else, how to handle their product. You will also find that, in most cases, the instructions for aftermarket parts will fall within reasonable limits of what the manufacturer suggests for the stock motor.

So, unless the manufacturer says to do WOT(Wide Open Throttle) runs don't! Also, keep the RPMs below 4000ish. The main reasons why are:
1.Vibration: Until parts are mated together, there will be little vibrations as the parts try to find their wear pattern. A good example is the piston rings, they will be vibrating, up and down, in the rings lands. The best ways to control these vibrations are to use controlled RPMs and engine Vacuum. This is why manufacturers usually say that the engine should be run between 2000-3000RPM while varying RPM. Much like you do when normally driving the car. Also common recommendation for cam break-in, which you usually do right after start up, while the vehicle is parked. Most engines make great(20+in) vacuum at these RPMs, which will pull on the rings minimizing the vibrations. Of course there's always the forces pushing the rings down, in the lands, on the Compression, Power, and exhaust strokes(as mentioned by other folks here). Also at the recommended RPMs, most engines will be running 30psi of oil pressure. That makes for a manageable amount of oil for the rings to control.
2.Oil control: Of course the engine makes great vacuum at 5000RPM! Yes most of them do. But, until the Compression rings and Oil Control rings get seated properly, they can't do a good enough job of scrubbing the oil off the walls of the cylinders. So, if you run the engine at high RPMs for too long, too much oil will get past the Oil Control rings and wash out the Compression rings, and make them slip too much. This happens anyway, when the engine is new. That's why it's “normal” for a new engine to consume oil. But, if it happens too much, during the break in period, the rings may never mate properly. Naturally that can happen to the bearings as well, and other parts, if you're breaking them in at 60psi of oil pressure as you will likely have at high RPMs.

Too much fuel is not good for rings either. So, tuning is important as a few other have pointed out. Most modern(fuel injected) engines won't be flooding the rings though.
I understand what you are saying but the opinions on the ways engines get broke in has changed, the fact is, if you don't seat those rings before the crosshatch wears off, they will never seat. the cross hatch you see in a worn engine like this, is the part below the surface of the cylinder walls the part raised during the honing is the part that wears in the rings. the part below the surface of the cylinder walls holds the small film of oil that keeps the piston from destroying itself. I've built a bunch of Japanese engines, and I've beat the crap out of them breaking them in, some race engines, and they've all done very well. I run them about a hundred miles with a good filter, I use Wix/ Nappa gold, then change the oil and filter, run about another 100 miles same thing, then regular oil change. this catches all the metal during the break in. also DON"T use synthetic oil during the break in, if you do the parts won't wear together. It's also normal for your engine to use some oil and smoke a little before the rings seat

[Lil Mike]

But...piston rings are splash lubricated...

but think of it like this, the faster rpm the more oil is being wiped out of the crank and getting on the cylinder walls.

[Ichiban]

Yeah, and the more cylinder pressure is trying to force matter OUT past the rings, not inwards. Besides, how much pressure can possibly be created by windage, as opposed to normal working cylinder pressures. Piston rings, like any other automatic packing, are energized by the pressure they contain.

[88lxi-shortram]

had a discussion about this in class today and heres the verdict from 3 different ase teachers including one who builds motors for a living outside of school.

for a used motor drop in(like i did) were you buy a motor and just drop it in, you should be gentle and drive under 2k. a freshly built motor should be held at about 2-2.5k for a few minutes at initial startup to prevent damage to cams and to help seat the rings.

i remembered we had this thread about half way through the discussion and thought id throw my input in

[Tdurr]

drive the car hard, but dont drive it like you stole it. best thing i can say. do the whole start up and idle thing but the motor has to wear in under LOAD(hehe).

as far as manufacturer instructions on new motors, dont listen to them. they just say dont beat on it cuz if something was messed up during assembly they will be able to blame it on your lead foot and not their workers. Thinks of it like this, all the High hp cars being built for drag racing, auto cross, drift, ect. they break those cars in on the FUCKING DYNO. do their cars last for what they want? yes. do they tear them down alot yes. is it because they broke the motor in wrong? NO. its cuz they are sponsored and have new shit they can use.

perfect example of a manufacture sayin covering their own ass is Mazda rotarys and synthetic oil. In the owners manual it says DO NOT USE IT for unknown reasons but yet people use it to this day and have never had a problem caused by the oil it self. Its one of the rumors started in the 60-70 that any synthetic oil kills rotary's oil seals but the quality and ingredients in oil have drastically changed so there is no harm in using them.

So to the ppl saying drive it like a baby, grow some balls and drive you "sports car" like its meet to be.
/thread.

[Hail Doom]

This poll is a year old.
Methinks that it is time for a new one.

[MessyHonda]

dont think so...if you have any input write it here

[Tdurr]

lol soooo loooking at the results of the poll, most(is not all) the active members who have some good experience under their belt say the same thing

[d_moss]

Never built honda motors but I have build some 11 second 4g63s. I prefer the accelerate and decelterate method. dont BEAT on it. but run it like you normally would but will more down shifting to pull lots of vacuum. Again use good judgement. 100mph 5th gear to 1st gear is not good for anyone. But like 50mph then let off the gas and slow down then down shift ect. I would change the oil at less than 500 miles. Never have really long idles. Like 20 mins and such thats not good for any motor.

[lostforawhile]

I wanted to clear up a misconception about break in in this thread, and explain why this procedure works,
first, you MUST hone an engine between every ring change, when a hone is run through the engine, it raises a specific cross hatch pattern above the surface of the cylinder, this cross hatch pattern of raised metal, is what causes the new rings to seat properly, once this raised metal is gone, if the rings aren't seated, they will never seat, if this happens, the engine must be torn down, and re honed yet again. if you baby the engine during the break in period, the rings may not seat properly, if you tear down an engine, and see a cross hatch pattern, what you are seeing is the pattern BELOW the surface of the metal, the raised part that breaks in the rings, is long gone.
the second reason for honing, is the walls become glazed over time, this glaze must be broken by honing. the big debate is, if you don't push the car enough the rings won't seat, if you push it too much, the walls will glaze, and the rings won't seat. it's a fine line in the middle.

here's a great drawing showing the three different conditions of the cyl walls

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxWkov1Bc10ufp8NgDpJDbBI81fFttE AvYtNkXGwyoTNhMPqNyLw&t=1

[AccordB20A]

bringing this thread back since i have recently run in my motor, i used the give it shit technique. pretty much full throttle full decel varying the revs heaps but not revving the shit out of it. took it for a blast down some winding hilly roads to make it work with some good hills to "engine brake" down

Ive done 250kms so far and all is well. no smoke etc etc

[1GCustomAccord]

I

[1GCustomAccord]

Best break in procedure:

After first start gently rise up the revs to 1500 and then down to idle for 10 minutes.

Then you can shut it down and check that everything is ok (fluid levels etc)

You can drive it now but dont take anyone in your car, only driver for the first 100km, if possible go on a short trip in a zone with small hills, the idea is not to mantain a steady speed, just press the throttle for a while and let it go for a moment, so the speed keeps changing so all the parts in the cylinder walls and pistons will seat properly. Keep a speed over 50km/h and under 80km/h, dont drive in any gear under 1500 RPM and over 2500 RPM.

Change the oil after 500 km.

The next 1000 km you can take pessengers but continue driving it like stated and your engine will last forever (or untill it explodes).

Change the oil again at 2500km, and then at normal periods.

After all that effort you will have a very long lasting and reliable engine.

The beating up procedure is good to use when you replace piston rings only. I tried it and worked perfectly.

Here the procedure: After the rings change, start the engine, let it work for 3 minutes at fast idle about 1000-1500 RPM, shut it off, check fluids and etc, start again, let it heat to normal operating temperature and take it to the street. Now comes the funny part (i was reluctant to do it the first time but this procedure was proven by many rings manufacturer, and the instructions were clear so it was ok) in first gear (or drive in automatics) press the thottle and accelerate to 4500-5000 RPM and then back to idle. Do this once again and done, no more break in needed (for rings only!).