Major oil leak

[Harrison_Bergeron]

My car is hemorrhaging oil, so I am making a list of all the possible culprits and will likely just replace them all.

Which of the seals in the diagram are the infamous oil pump seal leak? Is it #4, #9, and #11?

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+LXI&catcgry4=KL4AT&catcgry5=OIL+PUMP+-+OIL+STRAINER

Are there any parts associated with the oil pump that should be checked if replacing the seals?

So, far I think my plan is to replace:
Front main seal
Oil pump seals
oil pan gasket
Oil filter base seal
cam seal
valve cover gasket and grommets
distributor o-ring
and, while it is apart the timing belt

Did I miss anything that causes a common leak, or that should be addressed while everything is apart?

This should be less than $100 for parts right?

I think that most of my idling/starting issues are caused by oil being where it doesn't belong. The car currently has way too much oil in it which I think is exaggerating the leak as well as causing oil to get in the cylinders.

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh boy. Where to start...

First, "oil where it doesn't belong" isn't causing your idle issues, unless you're squirting it into the air filter, the PCV is shot or something has gone wrong deeper in the engine. Second, all these seals have nothing to do with any of that. Third, you always want to do repairs under the timing belt cover while you're doing the timing belt. Either add the timing belt to your list or put off the repairs until you're ready to do the timing belt.

That said, it's a good idea to replace all the oil pump seals, 4, 9 & 11, when you do them. I've started doing those with every timing belt service. If they go bad, you can lose oil pressure and burn up your engine. Replacing them regularly is cheap insurance.

I'm not sure if you have another thread somewhere about the idle issue, but if you don't, why don't you tell us what's going on and we can steer you to a better diagnosis.

[lostforawhile]

My car is hemorrhaging oil, so I am making a list of all the possible culprits and will likely just replace them all.

Which of the seals in the diagram are the infamous oil pump seal leak? Is it #4, #9, and #11?

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=2DR+LXI&catcgry4=KL4AT&catcgry5=OIL+PUMP+-+OIL+STRAINER

Are there any parts associated with the oil pump that should be checked if replacing the seals?

So, far I think my plan is to replace:
Front main seal
Oil pump seals
oil pan gasket
Oil filter base seal
cam seal
valve cover gasket and grommets
distributor o-ring
and, while it is apart the timing belt

Did I miss anything that causes a common leak, or that should be addressed while everything is apart?

This should be less than $100 for parts right?

I think that most of my idling/starting issues are caused by oil being where it doesn't belong. The car currently has way too much oil in it which I think is exaggerating the leak as well as causing oil to get in the cylinders.

you missed the oil filter base gasket leak, take off the pressure sender, and three bolts and it's out, it will be a major leak if it's bad. and they do go bad. while thats out take apart the pressure relief valve and clean it and reassemble. it's in the filter base.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm not sure if you have another thread somewhere about the idle issue, but if you don't, why don't you tell us what's going on and we can steer you to a better diagnosis.

Never mind. I found it.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72301

[Harrison_Bergeron]

My thinking as far as oil affecting my idle is that if my valve seals or piston rings are at all worn the increased oil pressure is making more oil get in the cylinder than would be allowed if the oil level was correct. That is in addition to the oil in the intake tract from the bad pcv. I know that the seals aren't causing either of these, but still, oil is everywhere and I just want to tackle all instances of oil where it doesn't belong before I move on.

I finally figured out how to lower the oil level without having to waste money on new oil(the oil that is leaking is brand new, and I am broke) so I should have that taken care of this week. Once I get it running decent enough that I won't have to do it again until I have some miles on it I will do a proper oil change.
---
I called the oil filter base gasket a seal, but it is on the list.

The timing belt is on the list.

[russiankid]

#'s 9,11,4 are the only seals in the pump. It is a good idea to check the pump out with a feeler gauge.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, you're working with a big mess right now. I don't think a high oil level is going to cause high oil pressure. There's a valve in the filter base that bleeds off the extra pressure. Unless that's defective, you shouldn't have high oil pressure. Be sure to check it for wear and scoring when you are replacing the gasket.

Having the oil level too high will make it smoke more. How high are we talking about and what kind of smoking? Is it under load? Pulling away from lights? On startup? Sitting idling? You can drain the excess through the drain bolt at the bottom. You're supposed to replace the aluminum washer when you undo the drain bolt, but you can over-torque it a little and it won't leak too much.

If you have valve seal troubles, then it's going to smoke no matter what, so you need to fix that.

Your list looks good. You might want to add a timing belt tensioner to the list and a water pump. The water pumps like to go out on these cars just after you do the timing belt service and I don't think you can fix it without tearing down halfway to the timing belt. It would suck to finish the timing belt and then have the water pump start making noise 1,000 miles later. If you do the water pump, then you will want to replace the coolant and possibly the thermostat. If your little coolant bypass hoses are starting to seep, then you'll want to replace those while you have the coolant system drained. Those are all sold separately for about $7-12 ea. and there are exactly 4.2 billion of them. They add up to a lot of money, but if one goes out on the highway, you'll be stranded. It's a lot of work to change them all too because they are buried in very inconvenient places, like under the intake manifold.

Good luck with the repairs. Sounds like you have your hands full.

[lostforawhile]

have you looked at your spark plugs? if you have bad valve stem seals the oil getting into the combustion chamber is going to foul your plugs, plus coat the valves and pistons with carbon.

[lostforawhile]

Yeah, you're working with a big mess right now. I don't think a high oil level is going to cause high oil pressure. There's a valve in the filter base that bleeds off the extra pressure. Unless that's defective, you shouldn't have high oil pressure. Be sure to check it for wear and scoring when you are replacing the gasket.

Having the oil level too high will make it smoke more. How high are we talking about and what kind of smoking? Is it under load? Pulling away from lights? On startup? Sitting idling? You can drain the excess through the drain bolt at the bottom. You're supposed to replace the aluminum washer when you undo the drain bolt, but you can over-torque it a little and it won't leak too much.

If you have valve seal troubles, then it's going to smoke no matter what, so you need to fix that.

Your list looks good. You might want to add a timing belt tensioner to the list and a water pump. The water pumps like to go out on these cars just after you do the timing belt service and I don't think you can fix it without tearing down halfway to the timing belt. It would suck to finish the timing belt and then have the water pump start making noise 1,000 miles later. If you do the water pump, then you will want to replace the coolant and possibly the thermostat. If your little coolant bypass hoses are starting to seep, then you'll want to replace those while you have the coolant system drained. Those are all sold separately for about $7-12 ea. and there are exactly 4.2 billion of them. They add up to a lot of money, but if one goes out on the highway, you'll be stranded. It's a lot of work to change them all too because they are buried in very inconvenient places, like under the intake manifold.

Good luck with the repairs. Sounds like you have your hands full.
snooze the pump can be replaced without having to touch the timing belt, except one cover bolt and pulling the cover back a little. it's not bad at all,not like on my civic where it's driven by the belt.

[headbanger]

Yeah I ve had bad valve seals in mine for sometime now the tell tale signs of smoking hard when you first start it for a couple of minutes an sometimes when you kick it but it hasnt affected the idle at all.But if oil in cylinders was affecting idle then ur sprkplugs should be soaked in oil then it would affect engine at any rpm

as for coolant hoses I just went to lowes an bought high pressure hose by the foot with correct I/d that I needed.

[w261w261]

those little coolant hoses are not bad to install. Except for one, the one that snooz mentioned is under the intake plumbing. It makes up for all the rest. I had someone else bust their knuckles. You also can't just go out and buy a length of hose and chop away. The little hoses are different diameters and on some you need to have pre-formed corners or they'll kink. Honda dealers have them.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Right now the oil level is about a 1/4" over the top dot on the dip stick. My guess is that the last guy just kept pouring oil in because of the leak, he really didn't know anything about cars.

It isn't really smoking that much, when idling there is a very faint hint of white puffing out of the tail pipe, but I think that might just be water vapor from the cat(a lot of liquid water comes out as well).

If there is a valve for controlling oil pressure then the oil in the cylinders is probably all just left over from the PCV.

---

I haven't seen any issues with the cooling system, but the guy I bought it from said it had cooling issues, so the water pump does sound like a good idea.

[Dr_Snooz]

snooze the pump can be replaced without having to touch the timing belt, except one cover bolt and pulling the cover back a little. it's not bad at all,not like on my civic where it's driven by the belt.

How do you figure? The timing belt drives the pump. I'd be stoked to learn an easier way.


Right now the oil level is about a 1/4" over the top dot on the dip stick.

That's really not enough to cause major problems. Maybe a random puff of white here and there.


It isn't really smoking that much, when idling there is a very faint hint of white puffing out of the tail pipe

Does the smoke smell sweet?


I haven't seen any issues with the cooling system, but the guy I bought it from said it had cooling issues, so the water pump does sound like a good idea.

If you open the radiator and it's brown, you have issues. Flush it out as best you can, change the coolant religiously and pray that the cooling gods smile on you...

[lostforawhile]

How do you figure? The timing belt drives the pump. I'd be stoked to learn an easier way.



That's really not enough to cause major problems. Maybe a random puff of white here and there.



Does the smoke smell sweet?



If you open the radiator and it's brown, you have issues. Flush it out as best you can, change the coolant religiously and pray that the cooling gods smile on you...

the a20 water pump isn't driven by the timing belt, you said water pump,it's a regular v belt, one of the bolts is just under the edge of the cover is all, but you can get to it.

[Dr_Snooz]

the a20 water pump isn't driven by the timing belt, you said water pump,it's a regular v belt, one of the bolts is just under the edge of the cover is all, but you can get to it.

Don't know why I was thinking oil pump when I read your post... :nuts:

[Harrison_Bergeron]

What does brown in the cooling system mean? It is just corrosion right?

When I decided I would buy it it was with the idea of that I would have to replace the entire cooling system, which looks like it wouldn't cost much more than $200. Of course that was before it decided it wasn't going to run anymore, and before I grasped the severity of the oil leak. Still, replacing the radiator, thermostat, pump, and lines doesn't seem like that big a deal.

If you are thinking blown head gasket I really don't think that is the case, I blew the head gasket on my truck and this doesn't seem anything like that, the whiteness of the exhaust is 1000x times less than when my truck blew, and the oil doesn't show any signs of having gone milk shake.

[lostforawhile]

What does brown in the cooling system mean? It is just corrosion right?

When I decided I would buy it it was with the idea of that I would have to replace the entire cooling system, which looks like it wouldn't cost much more than $200. Of course that was before it decided it wasn't going to run anymore, and before I grasped the severity of the oil leak. Still, replacing the radiator, thermostat, pump, and lines doesn't seem like that big a deal.

If you are thinking blown head gasket I really don't think that is the case, I blew the head gasket on my truck and this doesn't seem anything like that, the whiteness of the exhaust is 1000x times less than when my truck blew, and the oil doesn't show any signs of having gone milk shake.
the oil leaks shouldn't cost much but time, thats to expected on a car this old, valve cover and grommets, dizzy o ring, pan gasket, crank and cam seals, oil pump seal, oil filter base gasket. the gaskets aren't that much

[ecogabriel]

I would pressure wash the engine and then check for leaks. That is what I did with mine; it leaked so bad (and for so long) that tracing leaks was impossible with all the dirt and crap glued to the engine. That way I was able to figure out where the leaks were and how bad they were so I fixed the worse ones first

Oil filter gasket was the first leak I fixed and is a likely culprit if you have a bad oil leak. They become brittle and not seal anymore. It is not hard to do in an EFI car if one removes the air cleaner box so it can be done from the top. Eventually, I got rid of all the other leaks including rear crank seal..... AARRRGGGHHHH getting the trans out!!!

I will soon have to face the infamous oil pan gasket that started leaking.... anyway....

Try cleaning up the engine so you can identify where the leaks come from and fix the worse ones first...

[ecogabriel]

f... computer... two posts!!!

I'd better head home....I'm wasted, sorry...

[Harrison_Bergeron]

From the location of the drops I pretty sure the major hemorrhage is the oil pump or crank seal, and that the pcv box and/or filter base are causing a dribble. I'll just do them all and done with it. I don't think that there are any more options for leaks that I haven't listed, I've got the pulley side of the motor covered, the rear covered, and the dizzy. I think the only options after that are the head gasket and rear main, which are bigger jobs which I can afford to put off- as long as I cross my fingers.

[Dr_Snooz]

What kind of compression does the engine get? Is it worth all this trouble? I'm only asking because I spent all kinds of money fixing leaks and whatnot and ended up pulling it all out when the rings went. Avoid my mistake if you can.

[Bluntman]

You can also spray parts cleaner and clean up the oily mess, and then run a UV dye oil detector in with the oil and run it for a while. Then check where the leaks are coming from with a UV light. They sell kits and such at auto parts stores. I just did a google for results.http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=oil+leak+detection+dye&btnG=Google+Search

[Harrison_Bergeron]

What kind of compression does the engine get? Is it worth all this trouble? I'm only asking because I spent all kinds of money fixing leaks and whatnot and ended up pulling it all out when the rings went. Avoid my mistake if you can.

I dunno, the car only has 105,000, so I doubt the rings are bad. Now that I know the OBD1 swap most likely can't pass even the blindest smog inspector my ultimate goal is a b-series swap. So, if all goes well the motor is being replaced eventually anyway.

As long as I am only doing nickel and dime repairs that are spread out I wont mind if it is all for not, it is sort of fun, and I am building diagnostic experience.

Right now I just need it to run good enough to take a smog test, so I can register it, so I can drive for cheaper, and park on the street.

[joebeets]

My personal record is one quart per every three miles, due to a deteriorated oil filter gasket. I left a trail wherever I drove. Sadly, it required a trip to the (nearby) shop to determine this. Only charged me $35 though.

[ecogabriel]

the oil leaks shouldn't cost much but time, thats to expected on a car this old, valve cover and grommets, dizzy o ring, pan gasket, crank and cam seals, oil pump seal, oil filter base gasket. the gaskets aren't that much

Most of the parts are inexpensive, but it takes time and work. Old car = leaks

I would add to the potential leak sources the distributor shaft seal. It is inside the dizzy and seals the shaft... mine was hardened as a rock and the distributor internals were splashed with oil. Because of being EFI the oil mess got limited to the sensors in the lower half of the dizzy...
That shaft seal is not a standard size (like the distributor bearing), but can be gotten online... can't recall if I got mine on ebay or from an online store.

my 2 cents...

[lostforawhile]

Most of the parts are inexpensive, but it takes time and work. Old car = leaks

I would add to the potential leak sources the distributor shaft seal. It is inside the dizzy and seals the shaft... mine was hardened as a rock and the distributor internals were splashed with oil. Because of being EFI the oil mess got limited to the sensors in the lower half of the dizzy...
That shaft seal is not a standard size (like the distributor bearing), but can be gotten online... can't recall if I got mine on ebay or from an online store.

my 2 cents...

thats the point of owning an old car, you get to work on it, you learn how to do your own repairs, mainly because of ridiculous labor rates, and the fact a lot of mechanics know nothing about these cars

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Am I correct in thinking that the timing belt cover gasket is not important?

I plan to go order my parts tomorrow.

[lostforawhile]

Am I correct in thinking that the timing belt cover gasket is not important?

I plan to go order my parts tomorrow.it just keeps out dust a lot of people just run it without the top cover even in place