Used the wrong AC oil

[Dr_Snooz]

When I fired up the AC for the first time this season, I noticed that the compressor made a little bit of noise. I charged it with a 2 oz. can of PAG 150 and then remembered that I did the conversion with Ester oil. The compressor really makes racket now. How badly am I hosed?

[Oldblueaccord]

well Im thinking 2 oz is alot of oil just to top it off. As far as kinds it can take both but maybe not mixed.


wp

[LX-incredible]

PAG and ester can be mixed, so can mineral and ester. PAG and mineral can cause issues though, which is why they recommend ester for R134a conversions. If the system was properly converted (complete flush to remove traces of the old mineral oil, new accumulator/drier) you shouldn't have to worry about using PAG.

As mentioned, 2 oz is a lot of oil to add for the annual charge.

[nswst8]

Angus is right, ester is the universal compatible that can be used in conversions. Although you are suppose to drain and flush before adding the ester.

I have personally seen, just the evacuation of of the old freon (Old school) and the addition of R134a and ester and it working just fine.

Pag and mineral will gum up the system. It actually looks like peanut butter when you take the system apart.

I do believe you added to much oil. How much freon did you add? Usually you will only need to add 1/2 to 1oz (one ounce is alot which can cause "oil logged compressors") of oil when topping off with freon.

[ecogabriel]

The problem may be the density of the oil (PAG 150) or something unrelated as your compressor was noisy to start with. I do not know what compressor is in your car, but Sanden recommends PAG oils for their compressors.
http://www.sanden.com/index.php?id=34EMNHQTC

Mixing oils? Not sure that is a problem. In fact if one reads the retrofit approved by Honda (Acura) you will see that PAG oil is added to the mineral oil. True, the system must be evacuated throughly but can one get rid of ALL the oil in it? No. By the same token, I do not believe the extra oil has made things worse; compressors get lubricated through the oil that gets suspended in the refrigerant. Going r-134a forces to change oils because they do not mix (miscibility I think is the word I have read). POE oils are "miscible" with both R-12 and R-134a. Info on Acuras below

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/download/pdf_article/tsb/converting-r-12-ac-systems-to-r-134a95-008.pdf

On the other hand, mixing PAG oil with R-12 is BAD. Some component in R-12 is incompatible with PAG oils and decompose them-black death. Humidity also attacks those oils. The new double-end capped PAG oils are humidity-resistant; I posted a link a while ago about this.
I downloaded something regarding conversion issues and how the PAG oil coexists with the remaining mineral oil in the system; google
Honda Service News May 98
or send me a message and I'll send you a copy. It even talks about the infamous Keihin compressors

I have been gathering info because I need to fix the leaking A/C in my '93 Civic. I'll go for a r-134a conversion and use double-end capped PAG (ISO 46) oil as Sanden recommends. I am not convinced of using Ester oils from all what I have read; besides, even Honda uses PAG.

(not necessary here, but I found the EPA link about which cars need replacing compressors when retrofitting to r-134a)
http://www.epa.gov/region2/p2/comprssr.pdf

[nswst8]

Now that you are thoughly confused, what are you going to do?

Do you have the ability to evacuate the system?

When in doubt evac/flush and recharge.

[ecogabriel]

Now that you are thoughly confused, what are you going to do?

Do you have the ability to evacuate the system?

When in doubt evac/flush and recharge.

Agreed.

I don't thing he screwed up things worse than they already were.

[Dr_Snooz]

Thanks for the responses. I flushed extensively when I did the conversion back in 2002(ish) so I don't think there's much, if any, mineral oil left. I put a lot of oil in at that time (3 oz.) but have evacuated the system into the air (sorry Greenpeace!) several times since then. It wasn't really making chatter. It was just slightly noisier than usual or maybe I was simply more aware of it. In Dr_Snooz World, that qualifies for intervention, so I put more oil in.

So what now? How do I get the excess oil out and make sure I leave the right amount of oil in? I'd prefer not to have to pull the whole system apart again, like I did in the conversion.

[ecogabriel]

Thanks for the responses. I flushed extensively when I did the conversion back in 2002(ish) so I don't think there's much, if any, mineral oil left. I put a lot of oil in at that time (3 oz.) but have evacuated the system into the air (sorry Greenpeace!) several times since then. It wasn't really making chatter. It was just slightly noisier than usual or maybe I was simply more aware of it. In Dr_Snooz World, that qualifies for intervention, so I put more oil in.

So what now? How do I get the excess oil out and make sure I leave the right amount of oil in? I'd prefer not to have to pull the whole system apart again, like I did in the conversion.

Are you sure that you filled it with 3oz??? NAPA edits a document that lists capacities -oil and refrigerant- for virtually all cars. The least amount listed for Accords was about 6 oz. Link to the doc. below

http://www.aircondition.com/tech/questions/84/Refrigerant-Capacites-for-Cars-and-Light-Trucks

another link: Sanden's compressor installation instructions.
This one might be useful if you want to have a grasp of how much oil is in your system.

http://www.sanden.com/images/Compressor_Installation_Instructions.pdf

Your A/C conversion kit comes with a Sanden compressor (if I remember right). If so, then check Sanden website for the kind of lubricant they recommend for the compressor model and #. They recommend PAG but what you may need is the exact density

I would get the amount of oil from either the NAPA guide that I posted or from Honda's TSB (which I could not find for our particular cars)

[LX-incredible]

Thanks for the responses. I flushed extensively when I did the conversion back in 2002(ish) so I don't think there's much, if any, mineral oil left. I put a lot of oil in at that time (3 oz.) but have evacuated the system into the air (sorry Greenpeace!) several times since then. It wasn't really making chatter. It was just slightly noisier than usual or maybe I was simply more aware of it. In Dr_Snooz World, that qualifies for intervention, so I put more oil in.

So what now? How do I get the excess oil out and make sure I leave the right amount of oil in? I'd prefer not to have to pull the whole system apart again, like I did in the conversion.

:facepalm:

You know that you can use an oil injector or one of those oil charge cans instead of evacuating the system to the atmosphere.

3 oz isn't shit. The system calls for 6-7 oz. You will loose oil when evacuating. I only add oil when the compressor is running and only about 1/2 oz at a time. You can hear the compressor quiet when the system has its required oil. Do not continue to charge. Too much oil is much worse then too little. A low oil charge can also be indicated by a smaller pressure differential (lower high side pressure and higher low side pressure).

Best bet for removing oil is probably to replace the accumulator/drier. They usually hold 2-3 oz of the oil charge and should be replaced anytime the system is exposed to atmosphere anyway.

Where did you add the oil? If to the compressor inlet I hope you turned it at least 10 revolutions CCW.

[nswst8]

If you only put in 3oz at the conversion, then I'd let it go. Oil mixes with the freon this is how the oil is dispersed to the system (compressor) so if you are low on charge (freon) then add alittle oil when adding freon. You will lose oil when you lose freon ie: dirty spots where you find leaks.

Since you flushed at the conversion and then only added 3oz you are probably low on oil.

After a full flush I usually add the full amount of oil required less 1oz for adjustment when the system cycles.

I have a oil injector so it is really easy. I highly recommend them if you are doing you own a/c.

I paid like $50 for my oil injector. It's not the syringe style, it's a cylinder that screws in and out for more precise measurement.

[Dr_Snooz]

I was working from the Honda manual. If you replace various parts, they have you add oil to replace what was lost (p. 23-19 in the '89 manual). For instance, if you replace the filter, you should add 1/3 oz. oil. If you replace the evaporator, add 1 oz. If you add up the volumes of all parts listed, you come to somewhere around 3 oz. I'm not sure where the 6-7 oz. figures are coming from, but it's not from Honda. I added 2 oz. from one of those charge cans, and that was clearly not right because the compressor makes much more noise now. Either is was too much or the wrong type or too heavy. I'm leaning toward too heavy and too much a this point.

[nswst8]

If you flushed the system, you flushed out the remaining oil. I went to a Honda mechanic online and he pulled the info from the honda site, it came up to somewhere in the area of 5 1/2 ounces. I have 4 3/4 ounces in mine. Then again I haven't top off my system yet.

[ecogabriel]

I was working from the Honda manual. If you replace various parts, they have you add oil to replace what was lost (p. 23-19 in the '89 manual). For instance, if you replace the filter, you should add 1/3 oz. oil. If you replace the evaporator, add 1 oz. If you add up the volumes of all parts listed, you come to somewhere around 3 oz. I'm not sure where the 6-7 oz. figures are coming from, but it's not from Honda. I added 2 oz. from one of those charge cans, and that was clearly not right because the compressor makes much more noise now. Either is was too much or the wrong type or too heavy. I'm leaning toward too heavy and too much a this point.

Did you check on Sanden website? they tell what oil density to use according to compressor model. PAG 46 is the lightest and PAG150 the heaviest most dense oil. They have a bit of PDFs on several different aspects of A/C including a retrofit guide.

As for oil amount, Acura sets 4 oz ~ 120 ml. for retrofitting different Acuras (did I post the link to the PDF?) For the Accord, I got 5.75 from the NAPA capacity guide I posted the link from.

Sanden has a rule of thumb in their guides: take the damaged compressor, and drain the oil from it in a graduated container. That would give how much oil to put in the new compressor

[Dr_Snooz]

So maybe I didn't get enough oil in at the conversion. How would that make the compressor noisier when I put the right amount in?

[ecogabriel]

So maybe I didn't get enough oil in at the conversion. How would that make the compressor noisier when I put the right amount in?

We do not know what the right density of oil for that compressor is. PAG 150 is what you used now but there are other two densities (both lighter) (46, 100); Ester (POE) only one.
Worse, what happens if the wrong oil density is used?

If you check the compressor label there would be info about the oil although it would probably refer to a Sanden OE number; I read it yesterday somewhere in Sanden website.