88 LX-i died, Ignition timing way off

[pullapart]

88 Lx-i was running fine after new timing belt for 2 weeks, then died on the way home. It will barely idle and won't rev at all. I verified cam timing is correct. Distributor is new. Fuel pressure is at 37 psi. When I put the timing light on it I can't see any marks at all so the ignition timing is way off! I have tried a bunch of used parts but no help.

[ecogabriel]

Unless you have had a ton and a half of luck, your "NEW" distributor is a "remanufactured" one. I heard guys complaining loudly on how crappy those rebuilds are.
Fuel pressure sounds OK, by the way, so I would check the distributor; broken springs in the centrifugal advance mechanism would throw ignition advance beyond the marks' range

Checking cam timing: cyl #1 on compression stroke @ TDC (red mark on flying wheel rear of engine marked "T") and camshaft pulley marks aligned w/ cylinder head top surface.

[2oodoor]

Unless you have had a ton and a half of luck, your "NEW" distributor is a "remanufactured" one. I heard guys complaining loudly on how crappy those rebuilds are.
Fuel pressure sounds OK, by the way, so I would check the distributor; broken springs in the centrifugal advance mechanism would throw ignition advance beyond the marks' range

Checking cam timing: cyl #1 on compression stroke @ TDC (red mark on flying wheel rear of engine marked "T") and camshaft pulley marks aligned w/ cylinder head top surface.

not the red mark on a lot of them, some not even a color at all but just the T scribe, the red mark on all of mine is NOT TDC but 15deg

[pullapart]

Thanks- it is a "remanufactured" distributor, and I even sent it back to Autozone thinking it was bad off the shelf. They gave me another one and it made no difference to the situation.

[stephensimmons]

Thanks- it is a "remanufactured" distributor, and I even sent it back to Autozone thinking it was bad off the shelf. They gave me another one and it made no difference to the situation.

Did you check the ecu for a code?

[ecogabriel]

not the red mark on a lot of them, some not even a color at all but just the T scribe, the red mark on all of mine is NOT TDC but 15deg

I think you are right; red mark is for 15 deg. TDC mark is marked "T" that is for sure... maybe I got the colors wrong. The marks may not even have any color anymore; mine are still visible but faint.

How it is possible that you may not see the timing marks and the distributor and timing is OK? Remember that for checking ignition timing, the hoses going to the vacuum advance have to be disconnected and plugged. with that setting timing should be set at 0 degrees if I remember right.

Check the service manual; search it here. There is even one for US Accords (1989, but 1988 should be similar)

[pullapart]

The cam timing is right on, but the ignition timing is the one thats off. The last code was an 8, which I think is for crank angle sensor ( part of the distributor).

[2oodoor]

I cant help, I dont understand how it could be running fine then die and it be ignition timing. Unless the distributor was left loose, even then these things seem to run at idle anywhere you put them.
I have to assume you have put the valve timing correctly, so after that I would be checking injectors and related controls. Oh, and see if your getting a nice blue white spark on a test plug by pulling off #1 wire and use a spare plug letting it touch ground somewhere.. eliminating the chance it being a bad coil.

edit.. just in case, the ign timing could have been so far off after the new belt was timed up that it preignited so bad those 2 weeks that it has burnt up something in one of the cc such as hg or burnt pistion or valve seat

[stephensimmons]

The cam timing is right on, but the ignition timing is the one thats off. The last code was an 8, which I think is for crank angle sensor ( part of the distributor).

It is. Did you check all your connections real good?

[ecogabriel]

The cam timing is right on, but the ignition timing is the one thats off. The last code was an 8, which I think is for crank angle sensor ( part of the distributor).

That sensor (and another one in the distributor) are used by the ECU to fire the injectors. I do not know what ECU does when one of those fail -what the default mode is-. one sensor tells the position of #1 cylinder to start the injector firing sequence while the other one tells when a cylinder is a TDC

[pullapart]

Thanks for the info, I'll check some more things and get back on this.

[lostforawhile]

Thanks for the info, I'll check some more things and get back on this.
if that sensor failed, the engine won't run it's one of the it works or it doesn't run deals there is no default. the ECU needs that sensor to tell the position of the engine. make sure you check the wires from the dizzy to the ecu also and any connections for corrosion or loose plugs.

[Oldblueaccord]

If you advance it all the way can you see the any marks? You may need to pinch off both vacuum advance tubes to see it at idle.

It is sounding like the timing jumped a tooth possible more.


wp

[pullapart]

I got it figured out. Thanks for all the help. It turned out to be bad distributors (2!). After trying everything else, I bought a used distributor and it runs fine now. I'm going to write to the parts store and let them know their distributors are no good.

[LX-incredible]

I got it figured out. Thanks for all the help. It turned out to be bad distributors (2!). After trying everything else, I bought a used distributor and it runs fine now. I'm going to write to the parts store and let them know their distributors are no good.

A1 Cardone? Most of those rebuilds are crap. I've had one where they installed the bottom reluctors 180º off. With most rebuilds, you'll need to adjust threaded rod off the vacuum advance to bring it into range Used is the way to go. If you have the $600 to go new, might as well go obd1 and enjoy the added benefits.

[pullapart]

Yes it is a Cardonne. I'm going to take a junk one apart and then that one apart and see if I can see where they went wrong. I'll post later.

[ecogabriel]

Yes it is a Cardonne. I'm going to take a junk one apart and then that one apart and see if I can see where they went wrong. I'll post later.

Get the service manual here, a multimeter, and check the crank/cyl sensors impedance. Because of the earlier code 8 probably one of those sensors went bad, and there are no new parts to replace them... On the other hand, parts for the ignition part of the distributor can be bought.
The shaft bearing can be bought too but it is not cheap as it is a non-standard size; I wonder if the shaft can be machined down to accept a bearing with a 12mm inner diameter (the shaft is 12.5) because it is already too small for the 1/2" inner diameter bearings.

[Dr_Snooz]

I wonder if the shaft can be machined down to accept a bearing with a 12mm inner diameter (the shaft is 12.5) because it is already too small for the 1/2" inner diameter bearings.

I don't know. If you're going to start modding, it would almost make more sense to go OBD1 or EDIS than to try to make an old worn-out dizzie work.

[ecogabriel]

I don't know. If you're going to start modding, it would almost make more sense to go OBD1 or EDIS than to try to make an old worn-out dizzie work.

I've been thinking EDIS for a while but I have not solved the problem of the EFI sensors in the base of the distributor. The solution would be finding a sensor assembly that combines both and that also fits in the distributor hole.
Pouring parts catalogs I found a crank/cyl standalone sensor for 86-87 Integras that should do the trick.
Only questions are a) find one in the junkyard (no luck so far, and brand new forget about it) and second if it fits in the distributor hole. Otherwise, even the connector looks the same as the one in the 3G Accord. If it works, it would solve both the sensors' problem and provide a functional plug for the dizzy hole plus leaving enough room for the coil pack.

A less elegant solution is running EDIS from the distributor. Gut the top section down to the bearing, install a 72-teeth gear (remove two tooth 180 degrees apart) and install a sensor for the gear teeth. I have seen this setup done in EDIS forums (I had thought it in my mind) and it works. It may not be as precise as a crank wheel but it will outperform the sloppy mechanical/vacuum solution for sure. And it will solve the problem of where to fit a crank trigger wheel w/o losing accesories (AC, PS) -although I had a couple of ideas on this too.

In either case, for EDIS to work one needs to add a Megajol tLite box. I like the system and I think it would be worthwhile to get a solution implemented for the EFI sensors

On the other hand, if one wants the car as DD and is limited on the amount of tinkering he can execute, then one should keep the old dizzy buzzing. That was the reason of my reflection on bearings and such...

Snooz, Oh and happy bday! (was it yesterday right)... I'm done I'd better go to bed... g'night

here, the link for trigger wheel designs... enjoy!
http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?p=12030

[LX-incredible]

Yeah, I'm unable to find that oddball bearing now. Forget about machining down the shaft, then the reluctors below the bearing would be loose... The mechanical advance will likely grenade long before the bearing completely fails.

Obd1 is is a good route to go if you like to keep things simple and reliable. Bolt-on kits are available, most obd1 or obd2 non-vtec distributors fit, and parts are easy to find.

EDIS/Megajolt setups are going to be pretty much custom... It would be nice to see the proper parts machined to make this an option for people.

It would be interesting what they screwed up on your distributor.

[Dr_Snooz]

So what would happen if you put the ring gear over the PS pulley. Then shave down the PS pump mount bracket and run the pump (and the AC compressor too) off the AC pulley? All you'd need to do is put a larger, ribbed pulley on the PS pump to keep the gear ratio the same. Then get a longer belt and you should be good to go. What do you think?

[LX-incredible]

Could be made to work. Personally, I'd rather not have a 6" bracket to mount the sensor. It would also be a bitch everytime you needed to change a drive belt...

[ecogabriel]

So what would happen if you put the ring gear over the PS pulley. Then shave down the PS pump mount bracket and run the pump (and the AC compressor too) off the AC pulley? All you'd need to do is put a larger, ribbed pulley on the PS pump to keep the gear ratio the same. Then get a longer belt and you should be good to go. What do you think?

Sounds reasonable to me. But notice that you may use whatever trigger wheel that fits the 35 + missing teeth pattern regardless of thickness. Some custom wheels on sale are made out of 1/8" steel. As long as it is magnetic and you can place the sensor close enough to the wheel it will work.
Other setups have drilled holes in the pulleys and then aimed the sensor to those holes.
But we cannot get rid of the distributor; the sensors that make EFI work are in the distributor. The rest of the stuff that manages ignition can be gutted.


Could be made to work. Personally, I'd rather not have a 6" bracket to mount the sensor. It would also be a bitch everytime you needed to change a drive belt...

I would like to get a compact setup if I go that route. I believe it is feasible to attach a trigger wheel in the rear of the crank pulley, and then search for a FORD VR sensor that can be fit in the available space. I may probably have to cut or modify the timing belt cover but I am not concerned about it... I am too f... busy right now trying to finish grad school so I have done nothing except for peeking at 3G Accords in the jy