Best Engine Management...

[mushroom_toy]

Alright guys got to thinking I might go ahead and do my obd1 swap after I get the engine running good. So im gonna be using a P75 manual ecu...I was looking at the Hondata S300, and think thats what im going to go with for the price/features. Ill be able to completely do away with my piggyback SAFC with the S300 installed in the P75 correct? What do yall think about the S300?

[Vanilla Sky]

At that price, I'd be megasquirting.

[carotman]

You can try an Ostrich with HULOG for a cheaper and portable tuning solution

or Demon with neptune for 100 bucks less than the S300

You'll still need to buy a Wideband ECU

[mushroom_toy]

Wideband ecu?

[MessyHonda]

obd1 beacuse you could just buy everything and just hook up some wires for a tunable system

[mushroom_toy]

I am going obd1...

[Strugglebucket]

Wideband ecu?
I think he meant o2 sensor.

If I were tuning myself I'd a demon and an LC-1. Last I checked, moates said they had it working with ectune and crome too.

[mushroom_toy]

Yeah I was wondering about the wideband comment lol.

Im already running a wideband setup and piggybacking with SAFC. For the wideband running a PLX M-300 which I love.

[88LXi68]

I am running an S200 and I plan on going with the S300 when I get my cams. The S200 is a great system but doesn't offer the on the fly changes the S300 does. Have you looked into crome or neptune?

You can find the S200 on Honda-Tech for great prices too

[carotman]

Yeah, I meant Wideband O2 :D

The Demon is nice but you can't port the roms in another car unless it also has a demon. If that's not a problem to you, this thing seems to be working quite well.

[AccordEpicenter]

go obd1, eliminate the safc, get a wideband o2. I think hondata is nice but for the money you can do better. Plus hondata sucks as a company for suing dave blundell. Fuck Hondata

[mushroom_toy]

Well I already have a wideband, and have already used it to tune my car leaner that stock with the Safc. I need a full system that is easy for me to use, since Im gonna be the one tuning it for my itb setup. I basically need the best plug an play setup that I can tune on the fly with my laptop. I already have my p75 ecu, just gotta make my conversion harness and get the plate for the dizzy and get the dizzy and mod it. I figured sticking the S300 on the p75 would be the simplest/easier to use system with the most features.

[labeledsk8r]

i have heard good things about hondata s300 and crome.

you shouldnt need to "mod" the dizzy once you get the adapter plate its all bolt up from there useing the 4th gen dizzy (i belive) just need your harness's and chiped ecu

[mushroom_toy]

^didnt knoe that lol...thats good...thought I still had to cut/rotate or something lol.

[AccordEpicenter]

nope its a bolt on kit. Only thing on the dizzy you need to change is the drive key, and that takes like a min to change. Just make sure you line it up the right way, and its not upside down. The adaptor plate and key is well worth the money, nice and high quality and eliminates the fab work and guess work so you can concentrate on the wiring. I feel confident in making just about anything I need (like my whole turbo kit) but I was worried about fitment and interference issues with the dizzy and the stat housing, as well as oil leaks due to a shitty conversion. So I just went with the kit because I figured it would take me too long to build something decent, I didnt want to screw around

[2drSE-i]

xenocron has a bundle for moates demon and ectune for 399. You also need an adapter plate from cygnus/lx-incredible (cygnus for the plate, incredible for the hardware) ~300, and a distributor. Overall, your looking at about a grand. Bottom line you at least need the plate, distributor, and s300, which is 500 on its own.

[89T]

just get the neptune rtp demon, you can add boost control and still be cheaper than the s300.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well I already have a wideband, and have already used it to tune my car leaner that stock with the Safc. I need a full system that is easy for me to use, since Im gonna be the one tuning it for my itb setup. I basically need the best plug an play setup that I can tune on the fly with my laptop. I already have my p75 ecu, just gotta make my conversion harness and get the plate for the dizzy and get the dizzy and mod it. I figured sticking the S300 on the p75 would be the simplest/easier to use system with the most features.


Mushroom you find your car run pretty rich stock set up? Thats what I found on mine and we have similair miles set up.


wp

[MessyHonda]

here is a post to mine

[gtmst3]

nope its a bolt on kit. Only thing on the dizzy you need to change is the drive key, and that takes like a min to change. Just make sure you line it up the right way, and its not upside down. The adaptor plate and key is well worth the money, nice and high quality and eliminates the fab work and guess work so you can concentrate on the wiring. I feel confident in making just about anything I need (like my whole turbo kit) but I was worried about fitment and interference issues with the dizzy and the stat housing, as well as oil leaks due to a shitty conversion. So I just went with the kit because I figured it would take me too long to build something decent, I didnt want to screw around

where can one get one of these kits?

[Civic Accord Honda]

here is a post to mine

where

[mushroom_toy]

Mushroom you find your car run pretty rich stock set up? Thats what I found on mine and we have similair miles set up.


wp

Yeah mine ran very rich all the time, I leaned it out for cruising so i can get from 14.3-15 afr at around 2500-3000 rpm no to half throttle and a little more. Of course I left it richer for full throttle for now.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

i am running ectune with demon on my 98 gsr sedan. i love it. easy to use. less then the 300 and more features

[gtmst3]

ok since every one ignored my post i will ask again..... where do i get a kit for the 4th gen distributor? also about how much would it cost to do an obd-1 conversion

[2drSE-i]

Cygnusx-1 has the adapter plates and keys, lx-incredible has the hardware kits.

Adapter plate - 300
hardware - 10
ECU - 100 (unless you get it at the jy)
Conversion harness - 300 (complete with dizzy extension, o2 sensor extension)
Distributor - 150
o2 sensor - 40

all in all, barring any extra expenses, time and effort, it would cost $900. I'm betting on 1000.

[gtmst3]

Cygnusx-1 has the adapter plates and keys, lx-incredible has the hardware kits.

Adapter plate - 300
hardware - 10
ECU - 100 (unless you get it at the jy)
Conversion harness - 300 (complete with dizzy extension, o2 sensor extension)
Distributor - 150
o2 sensor - 40

all in all, barring any extra expenses, time and effort, it would cost $900. I'm betting on 1000.

damn thats alot more than expected

[A18A]

where

haha i was liek lolwut when i read that

[MessyHonda]

its well worth the swap after you are modified... both my cars have ran better

[guaynabo89]

damn thats alot more than expected

can be dome for less if you do all the work yourself. just buy the parts.



Luke if you need a manual p75 ecu let me know cause I still have mine id be willing to sell.

[gtmst3]

[QUOTE=guaynabo89;1022309]can be dome for less if you do all the work yourself. just buy the parts.


i would do it myself nut i cant find a real good write up on it and i dont have the time to have my car down for a while as it is my daily driver

[mushroom_toy]

can be dome for less if you do all the work yourself. just buy the parts.



Luke if you need a manual p75 ecu let me know cause I still have mine id be willing to sell.

Ive got a p75 already. :) Im ahead of the game lols.

[Importordomestic]

my 2 cents

I love megasquirt. ive built a few here and there. But in your case I would go OBd1 and go with Neptune RTP for 375$ cheaper than the hondata and slightly movre expensive than the hulog and ostrich setup.

[mushroom_toy]

Whats gonna be the most user friendly and easy to tune dealio...like I said Ill be doing all the wiring/tuning on laptop.

[guaynabo89]

Ive got a p75 already. :) Im ahead of the game lols.

I'm just trying to hock my crap to you :kekeke:

[mushroom_toy]

I'm just trying to hock my crap to you :kekeke:

Lol...hock me your whole car for cheap...then well talk. Hahah jk. Yeah if I didnt already have one I would definitely get yours.

[2drSE-i]

User friendly and easy to tune is gonna be eCTune. They provide customer support for a while after you buy, and its supposed to be VERY user friendly. Plus its compatible with all sorts of cool crap, Moates Demon, TunerView, etc etc etc. Only thing i dont like is that you can only tune one car with the Pro license, and the Tuner license is only available to professional tuners who have proven themselves.

[mushroom_toy]

Yeah I want something I can tune myself for free, not pay to tune it once lol.

[89T]

I'm just trying to hock my crap to you :kekeke:
how much shipped?

[89T]

Yeah I want something I can tune myself for free, not pay to tune it once lol.
download the neptune software and play with it. www.hrtuning.com (http://www.hrtuning.com) or http://www.hrtuning.com/software/

direct link
http://www.hrtuning.com/software/NepTuneRTP/Windows/NepTune%20RTP%20061610.zip

Once you buy it its you'r software with unlimmited forum support .

[mushroom_toy]

It seems to not be perfect with my PLX wideband though....only says innovative products...


EDIT: Found my answer to question 2. Also how much wiring do I have to do with neptune?

[89T]

the only extra wiring would be for the options. boost control ect.

[89T]

It seems to not be perfect with my PLX wide-band though....only says innovative products...


EDIT: Found my answer to question 2. Also how much wiring do I have to do with Neptune?
my bad! after messing with mine all day it does support the PLX. every time I messed with the o2 i thought of this thread.

[mushroom_toy]

^Ah ok so thats good to know...I might go with this then, as its seeming like more of a bang for my buck. Am I going to be wiring into the harness, or will I have to do any ecu modding?

[89T]

you'll just need.
http://www.xenocron.com/neptunertp-demon-package-new-p-223.html

with the boost control solenoid and ecu components. There are some resistors/diodes that will need to be installed.

http://www.xenocron.com/install/DemonBoardInstall.htm demon board.

http://www.xenocron.com/install/Hondata-S300-PWM.htm boost control.

I would go with at least a 3bar map sensor.
0bd0 to 0bd1 conversion harness of course.
screen shot.

everything else will be in the help section of the software.


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9071/neptunescreenshot2.png (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/neptunescreenshot2.png/)








http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2696/neptunescreenshot.png (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/neptunescreenshot.png/)

[mushroom_toy]

Ah ok thats awesome thanks for the direct links makes life easier. :) I dont really need the boost solenoid, but I could get it in case i decide to boost eventuaully. This motor though is gonna be NA with ITBs. Im gonna tune as much as I can with the piggyback safc before I end up swapping to obd1 and getting this though prob.

[89T]

cool~! here to help!

[cygnus x-1]

Ah ok thats awesome thanks for the direct links makes life easier. :) I dont really need the boost solenoid, but I could get it in case i decide to boost eventuaully. This motor though is gonna be NA with ITBs. Im gonna tune as much as I can with the piggyback safc before I end up swapping to obd1 and getting this though prob.


Mmmm, ITBs eh? I'm on round two of getting ITBs going on my 'lude. I can tell you with absolute certainty, they are fussy as hell. Are you building a set from bike TBs or using something off the shelf? If you try to build them yourself I guarantee you will have issues with the throttle plates sticking at idle. Throttle plate alignment is super critical there. (Not that you shouldn't try it anyway. I learned a lot from trying to build a set from Hayabusa TBs, even though they ultimately failed.)

Getting a decent MAP signal is also a problem. There are some tricks you can do to help with this but I'm not sure a SAFC will be able to handle it. I'll elaborate on this if you like.


C|

[mushroom_toy]

^Using the gsxr 750 tbs, and map should be fine I think, also already made a tps mount on mine though and once i tested it and adjusted it voltage is around stock so I should be fine. I never have problems with my throttle plates sticking on my liter bikes...and I know they are fussy lol. A lot of the times I daily a 82 Kz550 with Tk carbs, which I have redrilled the jets in and theyre coldblooded as hell. Adjusting the throttle bodies will be much simpler than adjusting and tuning my carbs,. :) im gonna try it, and if it dont work well or Im not happy with the gains, Ill just scrap the idea and go with a good tuned manifold, or may even boost.

[2drSE-i]

Mmmm, ITBs eh? I'm on round two of getting ITBs going on my 'lude. I can tell you with absolute certainty, they are fussy as hell. Are you building a set from bike TBs or using something off the shelf? If you try to build them yourself I guarantee you will have issues with the throttle plates sticking at idle. Throttle plate alignment is super critical there. (Not that you shouldn't try it anyway. I learned a lot from trying to build a set from Hayabusa TBs, even though they ultimately failed.)

Getting a decent MAP signal is also a problem. There are some tricks you can do to help with this but I'm not sure a SAFC will be able to handle it. I'll elaborate on this if you like.


C|

I'd like you to elaborate if you don't mind.

[cygnus x-1]

^Using the gsxr 750 tbs,


That will make throttle alignment much easier being that they are made in pairs that you can't separate. So you only have one point to synchronize instead of 3. The 'busa TBs are individual so I separated them to match the Honda cylinder spacing. That turned out to be far more difficult than I had anticipated. They are also way too big for the engine (46mm) making synchronization even more difficult because the tiniest changes in throttle position create huge changes in air flow at idle. The 750 TBs are what, like 41mm or so?

This time around I'm using 40mm Extrudabodies. They're far better but still not trivial to get aligned right since they are also separates.




and map should be fine I think,

Hmmm. Smaller TBs will be better for sure. More below...



also already made a tps mount on mine though and once i tested it and adjusted it voltage is around stock so I should be fine.

Then you're set there.




I never have problems with my throttle plates sticking on my liter bikes

You won't because they were designed specifically for the engines. The problem comes when you try to modify them away from the original application.




...and I know they are fussy lol. A lot of the times I daily a 82 Kz550 with Tk carbs, which I have redrilled the jets in and theyre coldblooded as hell. Adjusting the throttle bodies will be much simpler than adjusting and tuning my carbs,. :)


I'm going to remember you said that. :deal: :lol:

Carbs have a much easier time with lumpy vacuum signals than EFI.




im gonna try it, and if it dont work well or Im not happy with the gains, Ill just scrap the idea and go with a good tuned manifold, or may even boost.


Definitely give it a go and see what happens. Like I said, even though my first attempt failed miserably it was still a really fun project and I learned a LOT about what to do and not do.


On the lumpy MAP issue, there are a couple options. The most common is to tap a vacuum line from each runner and tee them all together into a common vacuum log. The larger the volume of the log (or can), the more smoothing it will do. The down side to this is that adding volume adds lag to the signal, which can really confuse the ECU. With a standalone ECU you can tune in some acceleration enrichment to counteract this to some extent.

Another option that the brains over at the Megasquirt forum figured out is to use a single MAP sensor for each runner and then use a clever electrical circuit to always take the signal from the sensor reading the lowest MAP level and send that to the ECU. The reason for this is that the runner with the lowest MAP will be the one that is closest to it's intake cycle, which is where you want to take reading. With a common plenum the runners are all at the same pressure, but not so with ITBs. The circuit to do this is amazingly simple and I think you can even still get all the parts at Radio Shack (minus the MAP sensors). I'll have to dig up a link to the circuit later and I'll also get some pics of the MAP sensor box I built. It's really neat stuff.


C|

[mushroom_toy]

Another option that the brains over at the Megasquirt forum figured out is to use a single MAP sensor for each runner and then use a clever electrical circuit to always take the signal from the sensor reading the lowest MAP level and send that to the ECU. The reason for this is that the runner with the lowest MAP will be the one that is closest to it's intake cycle, which is where you want to take reading. With a common plenum the runners are all at the same pressure, but not so with ITBs. The circuit to do this is amazingly simple and I think you can even still get all the parts at Radio Shack (minus the MAP sensors). I'll have to dig up a link to the circuit later and I'll also get some pics of the MAP sensor box I built. It's really neat stuff.


C|

Yeah definitely find that circuit if you can I might try that. Yeah the gsxr tbs are around 42mm I think, so it should work reasonably well, also they were already set up amd spaced with spacers so the almost matched up perfectly to the a series manifold, when I had my runners welded on, I just had the runners conform to the tbs instead of lengthening the tb spacing, so theyre pretty much almost stock spacing, so there is only 1 adjustment to adjust all 4 together, or you can adjust each one seperately, but i dont plan on doing that since each individual tb should have been set right from the factory and im pretty sure they havent been messed with.

ill try to take and post some pics up soon of my tb setup, I read a lot of your pages on pp originally, but Id still like you to give any suggestions you might have when you see mine.

[cygnus x-1]

Yeah definitely find that circuit if you can I might try that. Yeah the gsxr tbs are around 42mm I think, so it should work reasonably well, also they were already set up amd spaced with spacers so the almost matched up perfectly to the a series manifold, when I had my runners welded on, I just had the runners conform to the tbs instead of lengthening the tb spacing, so theyre pretty much almost stock spacing, so there is only 1 adjustment to adjust all 4 together, or you can adjust each one seperately, but i dont plan on doing that since each individual tb should have been set right from the factory and im pretty sure they havent been messed with.

ill try to take and post some pics up soon of my tb setup, I read a lot of your pages on pp originally, but Id still like you to give any suggestions you might have when you see mine.



Another thing that helps if you can do it is to have the cable drive the TBs from the middle (between cyls 2 and 3) instead of from the end (1 or 4). With paired TBs it's not such a big deal but with separates, if you drive the throttle from one end you have to go through 3 linkages to get to the other end. That's 3 points where the system can flex and create a difference in throttle opening. From the center you only have one or two points where flex can occur.
Anyway it sounds like you've got the mechanics worked out.


This is kind of a cryptic schematic but the important stuff is there. I can interpret it later if it doesn't make sense (just about to head home from work so I'm in kind of a rush).

http://bluegreenlabs.com/Prelude/Mods/ExtrudabodyITB/SynchromapCircuit.jpg


Basically what it does is to use the diodes to select the lowest voltage which then get amplified by an Op-amp (triangle thing). I'll get some pictures up of the one I made later.


C|

[mushroom_toy]

^Sound good...i cant see your pic. :( XD

[guaynabo89]

open yer eyes. ;)



It says its download, not a picture though. only megasquirt forum members can see it I think.

[cygnus x-1]

^Sound good...i cant see your pic. :( XD


Uhhh.... hmmm. Wait, here it is.



http://files.sharenator.com/Cat_fail_Fail-s446x354-10288-580.jpg




Ok, it's fixed now. Not sure what happened. It worked when I first posted it.



C|

[mushroom_toy]

Ah ok I see it, so where would be a good place to tap it, Id love to tap the runners but theyre short, and Id rather not tap the manifold since it isnt replaceable, I was gonna ad some runners on the opposite side of the tbs, so I could tap the runner there right? Since it will be pullling vacuum from there?

[cygnus x-1]

Ah ok I see it, so where would be a good place to tap it, Id love to tap the runners but theyre short, and Id rather not tap the manifold since it isnt replaceable, I was gonna ad some runners on the opposite side of the tbs, so I could tap the runner there right? Since it will be pullling vacuum from there?


You can tap for a MAP signal anywhere between the throttle plates and the valves. Really doesn't matter exactly where though. The TBs should have at least one vac port on them already right? Those would be perfect.


C|

[mushroom_toy]

You can tap for a MAP signal anywhere between the throttle plates and the valves. Really doesn't matter exactly where though. The TBs should have at least one vac port on them already right? Those would be perfect.


C|


Ah ok yeah I would have to tap into the vac line setup im already running between the ports....before I got the tbs someone had already jb welded and put vacuum line fittings in all of the tb injector holes, so I guess ill have to tap there.

[Civic Accord Honda]

pics of tbs please :p