Fabricated A/C

[Xaisk]

Well I took my 3G on its first semi roadtrip. about 150 mile drive, in years. Thats the longest trip its been since way back when. The engine worked perfectly the whole trip. I trust the car.

However the A/C compressor seized in the middle of going up the interstate and it started to shut the car off. I pulled off, not knowing it was the compressor at the time, and tryed to restart it. It restarted and I continued driving. It smelled really badly of burnt rubber which implies that a belt must have been sliding on the pulleys (probally the A/C one when it seized.) I havent tested driving with the A/C on yet. It was a 50 dollars compressor so I am not shocked it only lasted a month.

Ive decided overall that I dont like the standard A/C compressor design as they dont cool super well.

Ive been jotting the idea back and forth... What if I was to take one of those window air conditioners, Cut a hole in the firewall, mount it in, wire it up, and make a pipe or wind tunnel that goes from the mounted A/C to the outside of the car so it pulls air thats from the outside into the cabin and not engine bay air. I would have to fabricate some way to make the Knob that adjusts the high and low settings on the wall A/C. I would probally connect it to the blue/red A/C adjuster and rip out the compressor and all of its components. ALL of them. I would make it so that when you pull it to the halfway point. blue/red middle, that the A/C fan would turn onto the lowest setting. then the 3/4 towards the blue would be mid setting.. and full blue would be the highest setting.

Im pretty sure those dont run on the same electricity so I would have to buy a power converter to convert it to the household type of electricity and connect that to the fan and battery.

To make it waterproof, I would seal ALL of the wiring ports and holes with caulk or some waterproof material. The front of the fan that spews the air out, wouldnt stick out past the glove box in the passenger side. I would hook up the vents to the A/C with some kind of piping. I would make a wind funnel to funnel the air into going into the plastic vent guides so they still come out of the same ports that the regular A/C comes out.

I know there will be alot of fabrication to make this happen, including stuff to make the outside of the firewall where I put the A/C unit in waterproof.

But as a basic draft for a plan, how do you guys think that would work?
I think it would cool better than the A/C compressor unit that costs 300 bucks to replace. I compared 5 different A/Cs down here that ran on R-134a and they didnt really cool enough to overpower the mississippi heat and humidity.

Another reason I like this idea... The A/C unit would not be based on the engine, It would come from the battery yes, but it wouldnt have to be belted and connected to the engine block, which would result in saved engine power because its not got the weight of the A/C compressor running it.

This all seems very feasible and if the wall unit works, it might be able to cool the car better than the A/C compressor/system that is in it now.

Give me you guys thoughts and ideas please.

Even if its negative input. haha.

[A18A]

id love to see this project in action haha, please take pics if you do do it :D

[Xaisk]

Ill DEFINATLY post pictures.

[carotman]

You do realise that this thing is going to roughly draw around 100 to 150 amperes...

http://www.penguinpride.com/lulz/fail/acfail.jpg

[Ayeobe]

Why dont you just run an electric motor on a new compressor, and hook it up to the current AC?
And anyway, if all thats wrong is the compressor, you could likely get a good one for the price of an AC unit, right?

[Pnem3]

Re-build the Honda AC and find yourself a refrigerant that works better than R134A.

[Xaisk]

Thats one of the things I was thinking about. The electicity being drawn.
Onto the electric motor.. How much would that sucker cost?

Whats another good refridgerent other than R-134a and R-12? more so a better question would be.. whats the BEST?

[LX-incredible]

Re-build the Honda AC and find yourself a refrigerant that works better than R134A.

X2

I used $50 even $30 ebay remanufactured compressors. Most of the reman units on ebay are warehouse closeouts or overstocks, and are 4seasons, apco, or other known manufacturers. These would normally sell for well over $200 anywhere else. You could also pick up a brand new 10PA15E from denso on rockauto for $300, which I think is a pretty good price.

Compressors do not tend to seize from poor build quality. Overcharging refrigerant or using too much or too little oil will cause the unit to seize.

Pull everything apart and flush. This includes removing the evaporator core and removing the expansion valve. It is impossible to flush the evaporator without removing the expansion valve. The evaporator box or "cooling unit" can be removed in under 20 minutes. You will need at least 1 gallon of denatured alcohol or AC flush and an air compressor to flush the entire system properly. Be absolutely sure to remove all traces of the flush with compressed air, let parts sit in the sun, and blow them out again.

Replace the service valves and caps. They are usually forgotten about and tend to leak after 20 years (should run about $2 - $5 including the installation tool). Cap sizes are 1/4" and 3/16". Valve cores and tool are universal.

Hoses with any signs of leakage or degradation should be replaced. If it cant be stretched straight without breaking, don't use it!

Cleaning and straightening fins on the evaporator and condenser is not necessary, but will improve efficiency and get rid of the moldy AC funk inside the passenger compartment. If you're going do it, do it once and do it right.

Install a new expansion valve on your clean evaporator (honda part # 80220-SE0-A11) About $40 at the online dealer and much better than the parker or generic units. Use new o-rings of the correct size (should be about a 1/16" gap between the fitting and stepped part of the tube before tightening). Lube the o-rings with silicone AC lube or mineral oil before installing. Clip the expansion valve bulb into the groove in the evaporator outlet tube. Use foam tape or "rope caulk" to insulate and seal the bulb to the outlet tube.

Install the evaporator box, condenser and lines, sizing o-rings as previously described. Add 2.7 oz of oil to the compressor and install. Another 3 oz of oil gets distributed throughout the rest of the system. (nswst8 provided me with the 5.7 oz oil capacity from his dealer. This is for the 89. Earlier models called for more oil and less refrigerant. It is not recommended to use over 7 oz of oil. I used 6 oz with the new 10P15E on my 88 and it performs great with no noise.) Install the receiver/drier last. (honda part #80351-SE0-H11 about $56 from honda.)

Pull a deep vacuum, close your valves, and let stand over night.
Obviously you'll need charging gauges and a vacuum pump. On 88-89 (and possibly earlier models) you'll also need a 1/4" M to 3/16" F high side adaptor if you wish to connect to the high side. I recommend it as it will speed evacuation and the initial charge.
Be sure to disconnect the center hose from the pump when it gets turned off or it will pull the oil up into your manifold.



If the vacuum holds, charge! Center hose should be purged of air at the manifold prior to charging. System calls for 26 oz of R12 on 86-88 models 30 oz on 89. A charging scale is extremely useful if charging from a larger tank.
R12 can also be found in 12, 14, and 16 oz cans so you can get it right without the scale or charging cylinder.

With the engine off, open both the high and low side until the pressure equalizes. Close the valves. Turn the center section of the compressor clutch over by hand 10 times in the direction the motor rotates (that's counter clockwise for us). Install and tension the belt and start the motor. Switch fan to HI and REC, open the low side valve. Charge the 26 oz, close the valve and remove the low side charging hose. Turn the engine off and remove the high side hose and adaptor after pressure bottoms out. Cap the service fittings.

I highly recommend staying with R12, but if you wish to go with R134a remember that you need to use less (80% - 90% of the specified R12 charge). That's going to be about 2 12 oz cans or less.

Double end capped PAG 46 oil will work with both refrigerants and is a much better choice over ester. If you use mineral or standard PAG you won't be able to switch refrigerants later down the road without a complete system flush.

[Xaisk]

Thanks for the long post.

I previously flushed my system exactly like you said, using denatured alcohol and an air compressor to blow every part out. I can get the evaporator out in less than 5 minutes now after doing it 4 times. I blew EVERY part cleaned, replaced the drier and exp valve, also put a reman compressor on it. I took it to an A/C shop so they could put it under a vacuum, oil it, and charge it for me. (I supplied the R-134a) for about 15 bucks.

I told the guy that the reman compressor I got for 50 bucks said that it called for 7 - 12 oz of oil. It was written on the compressor and in the instructions. It was a 10PA15E. He didnt tell me how much he put in but I recommended to do 7 oz. Its completely possible that he ignored me and put to little oil in it.

The compressor, when running, made this loud whirring sound. You could definatly tell if it was turned on or off. Im pretty sure it shouldnt be to noticeable when switched on and off.

If he underoiled it and caused a compressor failure for it, the shop should be at fault and replace the compressor right?

I didnt oil/charge it myself because I dont have the vacuum machine to put it under the vacuum.

Im going to run a few tests on the compressor tommorow to see if it really is seized or not. Im pretty sure it is though, was driving on the interstate and all of a sudden my RPMs dropped and continued to drop until the engine cut off, with no response when I gave it gas or not. I smelled a burnt rubber smell coming from the engine bay. REAL bad burnt rubber. My assumption is if it seized, the belt slipped on the pulley and it burnt the belt up causing the stench. I know it wasnt coming from the other engine belts or components because the engine ran perfectly fine for the rest of the trip.

I think ill stick with R-12 in the future though. If it cools better than R-134a then I want it.

[LX-incredible]

8 oz is a lot of oil for our systems. Oil capacity is determined by the overall design and capacity of the entire system, not just the compressor. How much do you think he could of undercharged it? What oil and viscosity was used?

Shit, if you were local I'd just give you a hand. I've got all the equipment including a recovery unit.

Stay the course and try again. Sounds like you're doing things correctly and the "AC tech" is screwing up with the charging. No matter how great any shop is there's always someone there qualified to screw things up. That's why I do everything myself. You should be able to get a pump, charging manifold, and hoses for under $150 new.

Another question... Was the compressor oiled prior to install? It needs to have oil added directly to the suction before startup.

[rc00netzero]

I am in Alabama so I know what you mean about the heat. 3gs have no tint in the glass, so it can help the AC alot if you just put on some window tint film. Even a light tint like 50%VLT helps alot, and that level of tint doesn't make it "look tinted".

Side windows are pretty easy if you get the good toolkit, but you may want to have the back window done by pros that know how to do the heatshrink method for compound curved glass.

[Xaisk]

I really dont know how much oil he put in. He did it and didnt tell me how much. I think I remember him telling me he put 140 or 150 viscosity in. It was some higher up number like that... He told me itd be perfect for my compressor.

I really didnt do my research on what oil or what viscosity to use, which was probally stupid on my part. I think he started the engine turned it on then injected the oil through his machine... I did not add any when I put the compressor on. I suppose I will take some of the blame for not researching and telling him to stop and do it the right way in the process. and even not adding it to the suction port. I did not know you were supposed to add it directly to the suction port. I figured the machine would be enough to oil it properly.

Im going to look up the A/C machines on craigslist and Ebay to see if I can find one cheap. I remember seeing somewhere they were like 5000+ new which kind of scared me off. haha.

[LX-incredible]

Denso states that PAG 46 should be used with R134a for both the 10P15E and the 10PA15E. 150 is too damn thick (I use 150 on the older GM truck compressors). All compressors need to to be pre-lubed and rotated/cleared by hand.

You do not need a recovery/charging unit. A set of gauges and vacuum pump will do. While the system is apart, add the oil to the various pieces with a syringe, marinade injector, or whatever you think will work. The $40 - $70+ injectors are for adding oil to a charged system. Recovery units are for removing the remainder of a charge from a troubled system. They're great if you're doing a lot of ac work and saving refrigerant. I recover all refrigerant; It's the responsible thing to do and saves a lot of money in the long run. Venting any refrigerant to the atmosphere is retarded.

If you want a recovery unit one can be had for well under $1000. I found a thermaflo OZ saver 4000 for $100 shipped on ebay all it needed was new 1/4" ball valves (about $30) and some of the fittings tightened. Add a new recovery tank for $75 and recycle kit for about $80, mount it on a cart, and you have a very nice unit that recovers, charges, subcools, recycles, and self evacuates for around $300. You'll still want a vacuum pump and gauges as most recovery units won't pull sufficient vacuum.

[Xaisk]

Well that is probally part of the problem. 150 is to thick. That would have made it more work for the compressor to turn. I know too light oil wont lube the comp enough, but too thick will cause unneeded stress on the compressor. Instead of using 150 viscosity oil what would you recommend?

Cant really do anything to it right now. Gotta wait for payday this Friday.

[LX-incredible]

Denso states that PAG 46 should be used with R134a for both the 10P15E and the 10PA15E.

[ecogabriel]

I really dont know how much oil he put in. He did it and didnt tell me how much. I think I remember him telling me he put 140 or 150 viscosity in. It was some higher up number like that... He told me itd be perfect for my compressor.

I really didnt do my research on what oil or what viscosity to use, which was probally stupid on my part. I think he started the engine turned it on then injected the oil through his machine... I did not add any when I put the compressor on. I suppose I will take some of the blame for not researching and telling him to stop and do it the right way in the process. and even not adding it to the suction port. I did not know you were supposed to add it directly to the suction port. I figured the machine would be enough to oil it properly.

Im going to look up the A/C machines on craigslist and Ebay to see if I can find one cheap. I remember seeing somewhere they were like 5000+ new which kind of scared me off. haha.

And those guys call themselves "technicians".... Wow. I should be an ignorant compared with them; but I have the habit of reading, and reading, and reading, and learn something as a result.

Below is a link to the A/C capacity guides made by NAPA. It has what you need to know except for the oil density in our case.

http://www.napabeltshose.com/news/index.cfm?location_id=1078&id=1517&show=newsitem

Do everything what LX says to the letter including type of oil and density (double-end capped PAG, 46 viscosity) and you should be OK. It is what Honda tells in its A/C conversion bulletins. You can add the oil to the compressor and A/C system parts yourself; you'll only need some way to measure how much to get in there.
You can get your hands on R-12 if you hit Ebay; I'd keep the car that way if it does not leak. I don't recall if you changed the port valves; since those bastards leak (it seems the main leak source in my civic, the 3g leaks a little through them) I'd replace them if you have not already done so.

[ecogabriel]

Below is a link showing the difference between double-end capped PAG and regular PAG regarding moisture absorption

http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=17571

[Xaisk]

Wow.. that was a VERY useful link Eco. Also sorry I made you copy and paste post LXI. Was about to pass out from lack of sleep.
This Friday when I get paid im going to start working on it again.
So until then I probally wont post much here.
That link posted is useful to even non-Honda guys and im definatly bookmarking it.


And those guys call themselves "technicians".... Wow. I should be an ignorant compared with them; but I have the habit of reading, and reading, and reading, and learn something as a result.

Below is a link to the A/C capacity guides made by NAPA. It has what you need to know except for the oil density in our case.

http://www.napabeltshose.com/news/index.cfm?location_id=1078&id=1517&show=newsitem

Do everything what LX says to the letter including type of oil and density (double-end capped PAG, 46 viscosity) and you should be OK. It is what Honda tells in its A/C conversion bulletins. You can add the oil to the compressor and A/C system parts yourself; you'll only need some way to measure how much to get in there.
You can get your hands on R-12 if you hit Ebay; I'd keep the car that way if it does not leak. I don't recall if you changed the port valves; since those bastards leak (it seems the main leak source in my civic, the 3g leaks a little through them) I'd replace them if you have not already done so.

[LX-incredible]

It's cool.

Great link! I still wouldn't charge any of our systems with over 7 oz of oil though... Good call on the service valves as well.

[russiankid]

My R12 system, after 21 years, still kicks ass. Rebuild and don't reinvent the wheel.

[LX-incredible]

Agreed. The cost of R12 seems to be dropping anyways. I purchased a unopened 30# jug the other day for $175. That's $4.38 for 12 oz! Try to buy a can of 134a for that.

Spend the $35, get your license, be responsible, and enjoy.

[russiankid]

A/C systems aren't hard to work with. There are plenty of online articles that not only explain how the system works, but how to properly refill the system.

[ecogabriel]

My R12 system, after 21 years, still kicks ass. Rebuild and don't reinvent the wheel.

If mine were not leaking from the core valves (quite slowly anyway) it would work even better. I need to add some R-12 but even without a full charge it blows cold immediately after being turned on. It is one of the things I like the most of the 3G.

If cooling is not good enough even at full refrigerant charge I would take a look at the condenser and its fins. If they are bent, heat dissipation from condensed refrigerant will suffer and then overall A/C efficiency

[LX-incredible]

If mine were not leaking from the core valves (quite slowly anyway) it would work even better. I need to add some R-12 but even without a full charge it blows cold immediately after being turned on. It is one of the things I like the most of the 3G.

If cooling is not good enough even at full refrigerant charge I would take a look at the condenser and its fins. If they are bent, heat dissipation from condensed refrigerant will suffer and then overall A/C efficiency

No loss replacement tool:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mastercool-91490-Standard-Valve-Core-Remover-Installer-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem230888b9c2QQitemZ15046 7033538QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools#ht_1259wt_ 850

[nswst8]

Agreed. The cost of R12 seems to be dropping anyways. I purchased a unopened 30# jug the other day for $175. That's $4.38 for 12 oz! Try to buy a can of 134a for that.

Spend the $35, get your license, be responsible, and enjoy.

Okay, Angus. Stop boasting and share your intel, where did you score that from. I'd like to keep another jug of R-12 around, since I gave my spare to my brother.

[ecogabriel]

No loss replacement tool:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mastercool-91490-Standard-Valve-Core-Remover-Installer-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem230888b9c2QQitemZ15046 7033538QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools#ht_1259wt_ 850

Good tip! :thumbup: