omfg ITB for us but big$

[88lxi-shortram]

i saw this and i couldnt believe how much this costs

[SharkyX]

i dont see anything

[mykwikcoupe]

not sure what the big deal is really. With the b16 intake mod we can put anything on ours they can use as well. I just bought a modified intake from a member and Im going with suzuki ITBs. I cant wait to try it

[SharkyX]

not sure what the big deal is really. With the b16 intake mod we can put anything on ours they can use as well. I just bought a modified intake from a member and Im going with suzuki ITBs. I cant wait to try it

did i miss a link somewhere?

[88lxi-shortram]

sorry about that guys for some reason the link didnt show up http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-306/KIT-cln--Honda-A20-Motor/Detail

[Civic Accord Honda]

yep saw that when i was looking for the DCOE manifolds

[SharkyX]

sorry about that guys for some reason the link didnt show up http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-306/KIT-cln--Honda-A20-Motor/Detail

jusr ordered 4 of them!........

[88lxi-shortram]

i couldnt believe they cost so much... i wonder if any1 every bought one

[Hauntd ca3]

screw paying that much!
my toyota itb conversion will prob cost me maybe NZ$600

[cygnus x-1]

Pssstt... Hey guys, check this out:

http://preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332815&highlight=extrudabody


I haven't updated the thread in awhile because I've been SO busy, but I'll be getting back to it soon.

If you think these are expensive you should price out a set from Jenvey or Kinsler. You'll have a heart attack on the spot. ITBs are expensive because they have to be made to a high degree of precision in order to work very well. In setting mine up I've been quite surprised at how fussy they are. I think most of my problems have been caused by the manifold bolts loosening up, which creates uneven forces on the manifold, making it warp. Seems like such a trivial thing, but it matters.


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[mushroom_toy]

Im also working on a homebrew set. As soon as I drop my new motor in and get some base mileage/tuning done, gonna be throwing my itb setup on and seeing what I can do.

[Hauntd ca3]

they are an interesting looking set of itbs.
hows the progress with them going.
some of the problems you had make me glad i'm going with the toyota set up.
no alignment problems,already has MAP sensor feed from each port,and from what i can find on the net, the injectors are 270cc ,13ohm units.
my biggest problem is making the adaptor manifold out of the original honda item.

[cygnus x-1]

they are an interesting looking set of itbs.
hows the progress with them going.
some of the problems you had make me glad i'm going with the toyota set up.
no alignment problems,already has MAP sensor feed from each port,and from what i can find on the net, the injectors are 270cc ,13ohm units.
my biggest problem is making the adaptor manifold out of the original honda item.


At this point I think most of the problems I've been having are because of the manifold bolts. It took me awhile to figure it out because I've never had a problem with them before (with a standard type manifold), and I didn't have a suitable torque wrench until just recently so I had no way to check them. But a couple weeks ago I picked up a small 1/4" drive wrench so I can torque the bolts properly. Made a HUGE difference. At the same time I added a nylon insulating gasket from Bisimoto, which I've discovered actually compresses a little bit, so I've had to retorque a couple times. I've had very little time for testing but with every retorque it gets a little better so I think (hope!) I've got it pretty much licked.

Tuning them has so far been quite a bit harder than tuning a common plenum setup. I thought I would have problems with the MAP signal, but that turned out to be not such a big deal. The biggest issue has been with the greatly increased need for acceleration enrichment. In any system where fuel travels through a manifold to get to the cylinders (both carbs and fuel injection) there is always some fuel that sticks to the walls of the manifold. The amount that sticks depends on variables like manifold pressure, air velocity, and temperature. This wall wetting effect is actually what causes the need for an extra shot of fuel when you jab the throttle. Typical OEM type manifolds don't need much correction for this since the injectors are close to the cylinders and they usually spray on the back of the hot intake valves which helps the fuel to vaporize faster. But with an ITB setup where the fuel is injected farther away from the cylinders, there is a lot more area where the fuel can stick, and the wall temperatures are lower, so any fuel that does stick will take longer to evaporate, requiring more correction. After a change in throttle opening it can take several seconds for the wall fuel to equilibrate enough to get a stable AFR. It's bad enough that it messes up the auto-tuning feature in TunerStudio unless you can take it out on the interstate and do some long slow pulls at speed. But to do that it at least needs to be tuned well enough that it won't stall while driving. The best way to tune would be on a brake dyno where you can put it under a load, but I don't have the money or time for that at present. So for now I'm just kind of picking at it when i can.


The experience I had with the GSXR TBs kind of scared me away from the larger sizes. I was also hoping to get something a little more ready to bolt on and not have to do a lot of fab work for, but that didn't turn out quite like I had hoped. Oh well. It has been fun so far and I will get them to work even if it kills me.


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[kentwat]

That looks great. Do you have any pics with the foam filters on it? Have you tried to make or find some type of intake ram air for it to try and balance the air coming in between the cylinders? I understand that it would be a fab only part but do you think that would help in tuning? Great write up.

[ghettogeddy]

did anyone else notice they had the retail and price backwards lol
Price: $1,499.00
Retail: $1,349.00
You Save: ($150.00)

[LX-incredible]

Very cool Chris!

[cygnus x-1]

That looks great. Do you have any pics with the foam filters on it? Have you tried to make or find some type of intake ram air for it to try and balance the air coming in between the cylinders? I understand that it would be a fab only part but do you think that would help in tuning? Great write up.


No pics with the filters on. I'll have to take some.

Air balance is really only an issue at idle since the length of each runner is the same; unlike a common plenum setup where some runners are closer to the throttle plate than others. Each TB has a bleed screw on the bottom so that the balance at idle can be adjusted. That hasn't been a problem. The difficulty in tuning is largely because of the injector placement, but I think it's good enough now that it's safe to run on the interstate for some more steady loading. The biggest obstacle at the moment is lack of time.

I would like to figure out some sort of cold air ducting though. Right now it draws air from the engine compartment which gets pretty hot. My hood already has a ghetto looking cowl on it to make clearance for the B18 manifold I was running before, so I might take that off and rework the hood for an inverted scoop or something.


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[Hauntd ca3]

The experience I had with the GSXR TBs kind of scared me away from the larger sizes. I was also hoping to get something a little more ready to bolt on and not have to do a lot of fab work for, but that didn't turn out quite like I had hoped. Oh well. It has been fun so far and I will get them to work even if it kills me.


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i look at the 45 mm toyota throttles as having plenty of room for improvement,ie 280+ degrees duration cams instead of the factory 205 degree girlie items. now i'm a fair way through the fab process of making the manifolds work together, there aint much to it.
the most time is on the yet to be finished flange, which i wont finish properly until its welded to the honda section.
i cut up the honda manifold at work today, still have an ich to whack off each runner but thats piss easy. then its just have it milled flat,welded and then out with the die grinder to finish the flange plate for the toyota itbs.
has prob taken me a grand total of 5 or 6 hours to get that far, and prob only and hour or so to have a working manifold once welded.
then a few more tidying up the lugs and shit i've cut off with the die grinder.
so would say total 12 hours .
i really want to make these things work well and i think i'm well on the way to it.
my only real wish is for it to make 160whp on stock cams, which with the bolt ons it will have, it bloody well better.
oh and to have it have the mega sexy side draft carb sound to drown out the exhaust

[kentwat]

Cool thanks for info. I was thinking about the cold air mount and how about a pair of valve covers bolted together with 4 holes for tbs and mount holes and a big slice in the other cover for ducting up to your cowl vent. I was thinking that the cast cover would help in keeping the tbs aligned also.

[cygnus x-1]

i look at the 45 mm toyota throttles as having plenty of room for improvement,ie 280+ degrees duration cams instead of the factory 205 degree girlie items.

For sure. At the moment I have a stage 1 Colt triflow which is just not cutting it. The big valve head I'm building (at a glacial pace) will have around 280 degrees with as much lift as I can get away with without having to have the cam welded up. The colt is around 215 degrees. Weak.




now i'm a fair way through the fab process of making the manifolds work together, there aint much to it.
the most time is on the yet to be finished flange, which i wont finish properly until its welded to the honda section.
i cut up the honda manifold at work today, still have an ich to whack off each runner but thats piss easy. then its just have it milled flat,welded and then out with the die grinder to finish the flange plate for the toyota itbs.
has prob taken me a grand total of 5 or 6 hours to get that far, and prob only and hour or so to have a working manifold once welded.
then a few more tidying up the lugs and shit i've cut off with the die grinder.


If I were going to do another DIY set I would use the Rowland manifold and then find some TBs that are as close to Weber DCOE spacing as possible. That way you only need an adapter plate.

So with yours, the injectors will be in the stock locations?



my only real wish is for it to make 160whp on stock cams, which with the bolt ons it will have, it bloody well better.
oh and to have it have the mega sexy side draft carb sound to drown out the exhaust

These are going on a B20 right? No way in hell I can see an A20 making 160WHP on stock cams without boost.




Cool thanks for info. I was thinking about the cold air mount and how about a pair of valve covers bolted together with 4 holes for tbs and mount holes and a big slice in the other cover for ducting up to your cowl vent. I was thinking that the cast cover would help in keeping the tbs aligned also.

I had exactly the same thought about using a mounting plate at the inlet end to help with the alignment. And extrudabody will actually make an airbox for you for a fee. I may end up doing this in the future depending on how things go. Whenever I do get around to finishing the big valve head I'll look seriously at an air box and some cold air ducting.


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[mushroom_toy]

Did you leave injectors in stock location or were you using a location on the tbs, I cant remember...

[Hauntd ca3]

yeah they are going on my b20a. i woulndt have bought an A series powered accord myself since Si accords were pretty common here 10 years ago when i got mine.
the honda injectors are getting binned and the factory injector hole welded up.
the toyota ones are same size or slightly bigger than the honda ones, and since i'm using the whole toyota manifold and throttle body set up, i dont have to fuck around to much.
the adaptor manifold i'm making is only going to be bout 40mm from gasket to gasket, so is almost like bolting the whole toyota set up straight on.
i'll post a pic later. still have afew inches to cut off the honda runners to get the toyota and honda port spacings to match.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq140/h4untdca3/hondaitbmani001.jpg
the big shiny bit of 12mm alloy plate is the toyota adaptor flange i'm making.
you can see how much runner i have left to cut off and where the plate is sitting is roughly where it will end up.
so the manifold isnt going to be very big.
with that finished , all there is to hook up to be good is PCV,brake booster,fuel lines( since the fuel rail is part of the toyota manifold) and block off the 2 old manifold heater water lines.

[Hauntd ca3]

got my manifold finished and have pics of the near finished set up in my car thread if you all want a look

[rfiks]

THESE ITBs ARE WACK DONT BUY EM'!!! LOOK @ THE DESIGN, YOU CAN MAKE ONE YOURSELF!. When i saw this thread i thought it was about Kinsler B-series itbs being as you can mod a b16 im to fit a "A20". If im guna spend that kinda doe on itb's its guna b a fkn Kinsler fashow!!! check-out these threads:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2841539

[cygnus x-1]

THESE ITBs ARE WACK DONT BUY EM'!!! LOOK @ THE DESIGN, YOU CAN MAKE ONE YOURSELF!. When i saw this thread i thought it was about Kinsler B-series itbs being as you can mod a b16 im to fit a "A20". If im guna spend that kinda doe on itb's its guna b a fkn Kinsler fashow!!! check-out these threads:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2841539


Kinsler's are awesome no doubt. I really like the way they flip the throttle plates sideways and connect them with a linkage. That design would eliminate some of the alignment issues I've been fighting with. However, the smallest size they make for the B engines is 51mm, which is enormous for an A engine. To even come close to taking advantage of that much flow you would need a huge cam and the biggest valves you could physically cram into the head. The power band would be way up in the RPM range beyond what a stock A20 block could handle for any length of time. Driving these on the street would be a serious challenge since they will pretty much be either on or off.

So, unfortunately the Kinsler's are really not suited for anything but an all out race built A engine. As for building your own, I've been there and done that. It was way harder than I thought it would be.

As far as the Extrudabodies go, the alignment problems I was having were mostly due to the manifold bolts coming loose. That problem is sorted now, but now I seem to be having fuel issues again. Last time it was due to rust from the tank (the Preludes have a chronic problem with rusty filler necks) getting into the injectors (the fuel filter was too coarse). I think the rust problem is back now and maybe clogging up the filter. Not really sure yet as I haven't had time to mess with it. It's getting late in the year too so at this point I might just call it quits for this season and garage the car until I have the time to really get into it. I also have a list of other projects that need attention first, like the poly engine mounts, the big valve head, suspension and brake upgrades, and some other misc things. And then there's my fry-mobile project (diesel Suzuki Samurai). Ugh.


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