Inconsistencies When Starting

[adamwyoung12]

When I start my car, it does one of two things. It either starts on the first crank, or after about 12-15 cranks (I haven't counted the exact number). Any ideas? It only does one or the other, never in between.

Whether the engine is hot or cold doesn't seem to effect which one it does. It just seems completely random.

When I say it starts on the first crank, it literally does. I've never heard any other car start so fast. It seems like normal cars usually take two or three cranks to start.

My PGM-FI light is on. Could this effect the start? My ECU light blinks 12 times after starting.

Thanks for taking the time to read and hopefully help answer this question!

[Ayeobe]

Hah, im sure someone will know what that is, or have an idea. sounds like a problem that the computer knows about. I have no idea about OBD0 tho.

[charliekuney]

Search for the OBD0 light meanings. As for the indecisive starts: all four of my cars did that. I'm guessing (from experience) that the single-crank starts usually happen after the car's been driven for a while?

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26342

top of the page is the codes.

12 is the egr lift sensor. Shoud not have anything to do with starting as far as I know.

Normally I would say Main relay but in this case you say it always starts I would think maybe your fuel pump is bleeding fuel back to the tank and you are loosing fuel pressure for a second or two on start up.


wp

[carotman]

When it starts, how high does it rev? (when hot and when cold)

[adamwyoung12]

When it starts, how high does it rev? (when hot and when cold)

It doesn't seem to rev any higher than a normal car. Although the rpms do stay high at 2000 for a couple minutes. But once it warms up, the RPMs level out at around 1000 - 1500.

Something else it does randomly is rev up and down like a lawn mower with a clogged air filter. But it stops after about 2 - 25 revs. It usually doesn't do this, but when it does, it does so within a minute of starting. I replaced the air filter but the problem persists. Maybe it's related to the inconsistent starts?

That fuel filter idea might lead to something. I have know idea when it was last replaced.

[adamwyoung12]

Search for the OBD0 light meanings. As for the indecisive starts: all four of my cars did that. I'm guessing (from experience) that the single-crank starts usually happen after the car's been driven for a while?

Maybe I should just get used to it then... Mine sometimes starts on a single crank even when I haven't driven it for a few days.

[gtmst3]

i have the same issue diddnt think anything of it i dont think it is a problem. hjowever you say your warm idle is 1000-1500?

[adamwyoung12]

i have the same issue diddnt think anything of it i dont think it is a problem. hjowever you say your warm idle is 1000-1500?

Yeah. What should it be?

[ecogabriel]

12 blinks: EGR system malfunction. It may be a defective EGR valve, solenoid, or a problem with the vacuum system that operates the valve.

It has no bearing on the problem you describe though. if you have to test for smog or emissions it won't pass it because of excessive NOx.

When you turn the key and the dashboard lights (battery, oil, pgmfi) turn on, did you stop to hear if the fuel pump engages? YOu'll hear a faint buzzing sound from the back of the car that will stop once the PGM_FI light turns off. Try checking for that every time you start the car

[adamwyoung12]

12 blinks: EGR system malfunction. It may be a defective EGR valve, solenoid, or a problem with the vacuum system that operates the valve.

It has no bearing on the problem you describe though. if you have to test for smog or emissions it won't pass it because of excessive NOx.

When you turn the key and the dashboard lights (battery, oil, pgmfi) turn on, did you stop to hear if the fuel pump engages? YOu'll hear a faint buzzing sound from the back of the car that will stop once the PGM_FI light turns off. Try checking for that every time you start the car

I listened for the faint buzzing sound and I heard it. It turned off with a "click" as the PGM-FI light turned off just like you said.

[gtmst3]

idle should be around 750-800 i beleve

[nswst8]

Remove and clean your idle air control screw and your throttle body. You'll need to find a new O-ring for the idle screw. Once adjusted I just put some silicone sealant on the threads and over the screw.

You have a number of issues you will need to address.

How long have you owned the car and do you know the history of the car?

What have you done to the car?

[adamwyoung12]

Remove and clean your idle air control screw and your throttle body. You'll need to find a new O-ring for the idle screw. Once adjusted I just put some silicone sealant on the threads and over the screw.

You have a number of issues you will need to address.

How long have you owned the car and do you know the history of the car?

What have you done to the car?

I was afraid someone would tell me to do that. I looked into the random revving on this forum and read how I should clean the throttle body. I actually looked inside my throttle body yesterday, though I didn't take it off and clean it. It looked fairly clean, but upon opening the throttle and looking into the intake manifold (I think that's what it's called) I could see it looked pretty nasty in there. I pulled the idle control screw and the tip was just as nasty. I'm guessing cleaning everything will solve the random engine revs after it starts? Also, where should I look to get a new o-ring? Will any parts store have one or will I need to go through Honda? If through Honda, do you know where I could get a part number?

You're for sure right about having a number of issues to address! I picked up the car about 4 months ago for $600 bucks. At that price, the car didn't come with much of a history! I have no idea how many miles are on it as the speedometer cable was unplugged when I purchased it which put the odometer at a stand-still. It's got at least 175,000 miles. Since then I've put the speedo cable back. The only things I've done to it so far are basic: oil change, transmission oil change, a/c recharge, patched some exhaust leaks. I've considering putting a post on project central as I've already done a lot of cosmetic work.

Thanks to all for all of the replies so far! Hopefully we'll get this solved!

P.S. Is there a good way to clean the entire intake manifold as well? Or is it sufficient to only clean the throttle body?

[nswst8]

I didn't take the throttle body off to clean it. I just used a can of throttle body cleaner and some shop towels. Just make sure you have the idle screw out and spray the throttle cleaner thru that idle screw hole to thoroughly clear that passage. Let the car sit a good 30-45 minutes before you start it up, this allows the cleaner to evaporate.

Honda does not sell just a O-ring for the idle screw. It cost me $8.75 for a new idle control screw with a new O-ring. Or once you get it clean. Adjust the idle and goop some sealant over the screw (let dry) so that it won't back out.

[adamwyoung12]

I didn't take the throttle body off to clean it. I just used a can of throttle body cleaner and some shop towels. Just make sure you have the idle screw out and spray the throttle cleaner thru that idle screw hole to thoroughly clear that passage. Let the car sit a good 30-45 minutes before you start it up, this allows the cleaner to evaporate.

Honda does not sell just a O-ring for the idle screw. It cost me $8.75 for a new idle control screw with a new O-ring. Or once you get it clean. Adjust the idle and goop some sealant over the screw (let dry) so that it won't back out.

The O-ring still looks good on mine. Should I replace it anyway?

[ecogabriel]

I listened for the faint buzzing sound and I heard it. It turned off with a "click" as the PGM-FI light turned off just like you said.

The pump pressurizes the fuel line and stops because the ECU does not see the engine running. Try to listen to the pump noise when the car does not start; if there is no noise then it may be some problem with electrical contacts. :nuts:

It is a good idea to clean the throttle body; I tried unscrewing my idle screw and spraying cleaner through the hole. A complete disassemble was the only thing that cleaned my passages. :uh:

If you don't know the story of the car then you should start doing maintenance, for instance remember replacing the timing belt -who knows how many miles it has if the speedometer was not working. Also, idle speed between 1000-1500 sounds too high; probably the IACV valve screw can be adjusted to make it idle closer to spec (750-800?) Search for IACV adjustment I read it somewhere here.

[nswst8]

If the O-ring looks good and it doesn't try to back out while driving then I suppose you will be okay.

But I do agree that you do need to replace the timing belt asap. If you don't at least give it a good inspection. Remove the upper timing belt cover and rotate the engine by hand and insect the belt as you rotate the engine.

Dizzy O-ring
Filter base gasket
valve cover gasket
Clean PCV

Since you just drove it a good distance, I would say it is a sound engine

[adamwyoung12]

So I opened it back up today and sprayed cleaner down the hole. I got everything looking good, closed everything back up, adjusted the idle according to the shop manual instructions. I took it for a drive and everything seemed fine. An hour or two later I started it again to move it. Unfortunately it still seems to be "revving," but not as bad. The RPMs seemed a bit higher as well, so I'm guessing it backed out some. I'll get a new screw from Honda and will go for the silicon idea this time!

As for other maintenance, I'll look into all those suggestions. I've been worried about the timing belt ever since I got it. It's just that replacing it would cost just as much as I paid for the car! If it's pretty easy to do so I'll try lifting the timing cover and inspecting it. Hopefully it will be okay so I can drive to Washington from Florida in a couple weeks!

I'll also keep listening for the fuel pump every time I start it. Thanks for all the help guys!

[nswst8]

It sounds like you have some mechanical skills, the timing belt on these cars are really not that difficult to do. I can do one in just over 2 hours but I have access to impact tools. The only real pain, is the crankshaft bolt. Loosening it can be difficult but not impossible.

Can you do a compression check on the cylinders this can give you an idea of what condition the engine is in.

[Dr_Snooz]

You have a vacuum leak. The EGR is all vacuum controlled so the two could very well be related.

[adamwyoung12]

It sounds like you have some mechanical skills, the timing belt on these cars are really not that difficult to do. I can do one in just over 2 hours but I have access to impact tools. The only real pain, is the crankshaft bolt. Loosening it can be difficult but not impossible.

Can you do a compression check on the cylinders this can give you an idea of what condition the engine is in.

I wouldn't say I have mechanical skills. I usually just research and watch youtube until I feel comfortable to go out and try it myself! I've seen videos on replacing the belt and it looks pretty hard. We'll see how it looks.

I just watched a video of compression testing on youtube and it looks like something I can do. Next time I go to town I'll pick up a tester.

[adamwyoung12]

You have a vacuum leak. The EGR is all vacuum controlled so the two could very well be related.

Alright. Just watched a few vacuum leak videos so hopefully I can get to that soon too... My to-do list is getting big fast! Thanks for the input.

[nswst8]

Your willing and thats good. If and when you decide to tackle the timing belt give yourself the weekend, it should only take you 6-8 for your first time. But we can walk you through it.

[ecogabriel]

You have a vacuum leak. The EGR is all vacuum controlled so the two could very well be related.

Good observation. You may start plugging hose #16 where it attaches to the EGR valve and see if you still have the idle issue. If not then there is a vacuum leak somewhere else

REplacing the timing belt is not difficult; if you are attentive to detail, have some tools and especially a large breaker bar to loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt it can be done. Check the service manuals here so you can familiarize with the procedure. Or autozone has an online mechanical help that you may use if you register.

I would suggest replacing the crank and cam seals since you'll have everything out (they do not cost that much and give peace of mind about oil leaks). Others here will suggest replacing oil pump seals too... I did my timing belt plus all the seals

[ecogabriel]

Your willing and thats good. If and when you decide to tackle the timing belt give yourself the weekend, it should only take you 6-8 for your first time. But we can walk you through it.

x2

[adamwyoung12]

Good observation. You may start plugging hose #16 where it attaches to the EGR valve and see if you still have the idle issue. If not then there is a vacuum leak somewhere else

REplacing the timing belt is not difficult; if you are attentive to detail, have some tools and especially a large breaker bar to loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt it can be done. Check the service manuals here so you can familiarize with the procedure. Or autozone has an online mechanical help that you may use if you register.

I would suggest replacing the crank and cam seals since you'll have everything out (they do not cost that much and give peace of mind about oil leaks). Others here will suggest replacing oil pump seals too... I did my timing belt plus all the seals

I just got through unplugging #16. Am I supposed to feel any king of suction from the EGR or the hose? I didn't.

Here is a new development. I noticed that the revving coincides with a buzzing noise coming from the idle control solenoid valve. I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but here is a picture just in case. Every time it revs, this thing buzzes.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamwyoung/4976940502/in/photostream

@nswst8: Is this the PCV Valve you said I should clean?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamwyoung/4976940644/in/photostream

Thanks

[nswst8]

Your PCV will be on the intake manifold. At the 12 O'clock positon from that vent hose in that pic. At the base of the throttle body.

Give us a full engine bay pic

[rc00netzero]

Here is a new development. I noticed that the revving coincides with a buzzing noise coming from the idle control solenoid valve. I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but here is a picture just in case. Every time it revs, this thing buzzes.



If this "reving" occurs at the same time you are getting the (PGM-FI)check engine light, it is the computer disabling the normal Idle Control logic system because of the error condition (Code 12). Mine has done this too - it will go away when you fix the code 12. When a CEL is set the computer activates the Idle Control Solenoid (yes that's it in the pic), but disables it if the idle gets above a certain RPM. With the car in park (or N) the idle (because there is no load) goes above that speed - and the comp turns off the solenoid until rpm drops below the threshold and the cycle repeats... and the car goes rev, rev, rev,.... :banghead:
It's annoying ain't it...
When you turn off the car - it goes away until the next time the computer detects the code 12 problem and turns the CEL(PGM-FI) light back on.

[ecogabriel]

I just got through unplugging #16. Am I supposed to feel any king of suction from the EGR or the hose? I didn't.

Thanks

Yours is an 87 right? you will only see vacuum on #16 when the EGR solenoid (black box) is activated. If you track #17 hose (it goes from the black box to the pipe between the air filter box and the throttle body) disconnect it and plug it then you should feel vacuum in #16.

The way it works is this: vacuum is pulled on #16 permanently but it is lost because the solenoid is open when EGR not needed; #17 allows for pulling clean air so vacuum does not reach #16. When solenoid is energized, no air comes through #17 so #16 sees vacuum. There is a 3-connector vacuum cylinder inside the black box

88-89s use a different EGR solenoid so #17 is eliminated, and the vacuum diagram is slightly different from ours. Our cars are susceptible to dirt getting into the EGR vacuum system when #17 is left disconnected and sucking dirty air all the time which clogs that vacuum cylinder and the vacuum modulator in the black box, causing EGR system malfunction and the code 12.

I had to fix that system when I got the car (it failed emissions) so I had to get deep into how it worked. It turned out I had a defective EGR lift sensor; recently I was victim to a lazy EGR valve (my #17 was left unattached) but it is solved now

[adamwyoung12]

So here's an update:

I replaced the plugs and checked the compression Sunday. All tests read between 145-150 after 7 revs each. If I only revved once the needle would show around 95.

Today I replaced the valve cover gasket and opened the timing belt cover while I was at it. To my surprise the timing belt looked almost like new! Unfortunately it did seemkind of loose. If I wanted to I could have worked it enough to take it off the top "gear" (for lack of the correct term). Is that normal? Here is a link to some pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamwyoung/

I still have yet to do a good vacuum leak test. I blew some propane around the engine the other day but didn't hear anything. Has anyone else used this method with good results? Maybe there is already a thread on this topic?

I also still need to try unplugging hose #16 to see if the PGM-FI light stays off.

I picked up a new IACV screw, some throttle body cleaner, and some thread-lock and I plan to do a thorough cleaning of the throttle body before installing the new IACV screw.

@nswst8: Here is a full pick:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamwyoung/4990564418/

[charliekuney]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamwyoung/

:bowrofl:

Cow.