Tophat mod: Version 2?

[LowSider]

Well i have poured over your guy's forums and found out many interesting things. One thread in particular aimed at increasing shock travel with a lowered suspension peaked my interest. I decided I would do this mod after hitting some raised castings in the street and ramming the shock shafts past the bushing. Initially I thought I have burst the lower washers but now I have realized they were not put back in because I have coilover sleeves and the washer are attached to the shield.

I was also involved in a small rear ender which made me realize that i had to do something that appeared a little more "stock" since I will almost surely be going into the insurance facility, and I am confident that if I pop my hood with long carriage bolts protruding into the engine bay theres a pretty good chance I won't be driving out. So, the thinking began.

It isnt some genius idea, merely and expansion upon the work already done by the people behind the first version.

it isnt done yet but I am very tired of hearing my shock smash around so the welding should be done this week and thats really the last step left at this point.

I guess I will also include my suspension setup aside from the top hat mod in this post aswell.

Pictures with captions.

Rear hats marked with white for cutting, removing the bushing cups from the perch section.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0147.jpg

Fronts marked likewise
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0148.jpg

Cut up top hats
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0159.jpg

Front hat cut
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0160.jpg

Section of pipe will be placed in between
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0161.jpg

You can see that the pipe is slightly larger than the cups, this is a front. I believe the tubing I got is 1-5/8" but don't quote me on that at the moment.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0152.jpg

Rear tubing was larger as it has larger bushings, this tubing is 2" I.D.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0151.jpg

Rear tubing
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0150.jpg

Front tubing, Hondamonster is going to get back to me about hood clearance, then I will trim the sections to the correct lengths.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0149.jpg

[LowSider]

The tubing is large enough that along with boring out the holes in the towers to allow the new top hats to mount to the car. The body of the shock will be able to travel up into the new piped section.


Now, as for struts and springs.

The car is currently on ebay coilovers adjusted all the way down. I really wanted the car to go lower when I set it down after installing them but after driving down the street and having it bottom out on the shocks so badly I figured I could live with where it was at. Then I rammed the shocked through the bushings, so I knew I was going to have to do something.

I also noticed that Hondamonsters car was significantly lower than mine.

I had cleaned up a good set of used struts out of my parts car (see minor rear ender in pouring rain with cambered wheels :thumbdn:) and went pretty legit securing the coilover sleeves to the shock bodies. The ones I have on currently have two o-rings betwen the sleeve and the shock body and they clang around and sqwak like crazy when the car bounces and they are wet.

This is what I did this time.

Very large O-rings cut open and wrapped like threads around the shock body. And secured with a good helping of electrical tape. I saw something similar like this online using normal o-rings.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0131.jpg

Corkscrewed around
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0135.jpg

One assembled
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0134.jpg

Finished product
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0140.jpg

Here was where I noticed just how much of a lift I was getting because the sleeve didnt sit all the way down on the original perch AND these new sleeves were double locking rings The spring is shorter that stock obviously, but it still sits almost 2" higher then the original even adjusted all the way down.

As cool as they looked I tore them down and am now planning on running the aftermarket coils on the stock perches minus the sleeves. Another reason for this decsion is that the coilover sleeve on the front actually sits 1/4" of an inch higher than the top of the shock body, meaning that with the modified top hats it would not allow the shock to travel up into the new tube section of the top hat making the modification redundant as long as the sleeve is on the front struts.

[LowSider]

The rear struts


The rear struts use significantly larger springs in this car, I dont know why and i dont really care. But since I was going to all this work i wasn't about the put these mini coils in the huge perch, cause it just looks lame. Not to mention the coilvers actually fall into the bracing for the spring perch and not secured very well in the setup currently in the car. I need a flat surface for the coilover sleeve to sit on as I still plan on running them in the rear of the car. So I started cutting.

I trimmed the perches down to the section of the bracing that was level.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0153.jpg

Trip to the faster depot and i had some nice flat surfaces to work with. i can't remember the size of these washers, They are just bare steel, I just took the shock down there so as to not have any disappointments.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/lowsidecustoms/IMG_0155.jpg

I plan to weld these washers into place, Ive heard alot about not being safe to weld onto shock absorbers but I think with the distance from the actual body of the shock and taking my time it shouldnt be an issue.

As for springs I am planning on starting with the ebay coils all around and seeing how that turns out with the extended travel. I would really like to attempt to make it ride smoother at this lower height. I have two sets of accord spring and one set of civic springs, so I may try a variety of cut coil setups if the ebay coils are still to stiff, or it may turn out the stiff springs will be necessary to keep the fender of the tires. We will see, either way I will post progress in this thread.

[Hondamonster]

love the work dude. that version of a top hat has been done on civics and integras. i think blox makes them out of billet. you'd be the first i know of on a 3g accord though. keep it up! your next problem will be the uca's hitting the fender well. after that, the sway bar binds. then after that, you hit the ground with the frame! thats the last level i'm on... for now ;)

[88LXi68]

ground control makes them too

http://weaksauceparts.com/picturesstore/groundcontrol_tophats.jpg

[Hondamonster]

double post

[Hondamonster]

hey a little super top secret info for ya-

i work at autozone. i try to spend what free time i have there (which is often since we don't have a lot of customers at that one) looking busy so i don't get other stupid tasks and such. I also had trouble with my rear shocks so one thing I did while trying to look busy was check into rear shocks from other hondas since they're all relatively the same size. Luke "mushroom toy" told me he was running ef civic shocks in the rear and that he believed they might have been shorter than our factory ones. since at that point i was bottoming my rears out without a bump stop, more travel was necessary. so thats where the research started...

ef civic (hatch or sedan) shocks have a shorter compressed length than accord shocks, but thats not all! the perch is also welded lower on the shock body, and they have little springs in the rear, so ebay coilover springs (or whatever else non-stock springs you run) fit perfectly in the mount. that makes it so you don't have to mod the top hats in the rear since you're getting more travel out of the shock just by it being shorter.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r63/hondahutch/nelson038.jpg

[Civic Accord Honda]

:thumbup:

[import racer]

I was going to do something like that on the sei after i got it on the road.Was not going to use that heavy of tubing though,shouldn't need it that heavy anyway.Shouldn't the top hats extend the same as the spring drop.

[mykwikcoupe]

ground control makes them too

http://weaksauceparts.com/picturesstore/groundcontrol_tophats.jpg

are these available for our cars even as a crossover piece from another more common car?

[LowSider]

I got one chunk of tubing for $5 and the other for free from a couple fab shops wasnt going to complain.

I wondered about the shocks. since I have two sets of front shocks i was even thonking about trying to weld those bottom mounts onto the front shocks cause they are really short.

Are those nice machined hats actualy for our cars those are deadly nice, but the look expensive.

[88LXi68]

are these available for our cars even as a crossover piece from another more common car?

they are not available for our accords. the rears MAY work, but the fronts use a 2 stud design whereas ours use 3.

I am not sure if any other applications will work because I decided to shorten my Konis at the time. I think GC could definitely make them though.

[Hondamonster]

all you'd have to do is drill out an extra hole in the tower. no big deal.

[mykwikcoupe]

it says those GC tophats only work with GC coilover kits? Any clue why? I do have the kits on one of my cars nut Im curious why that is?

[Hondamonster]

so that you have to buy the coilovers too, duh. lolol marketing.

[markmdz89hatch]

Lowsider --> What you did is exactly how it should be done. The "Version 1" of the "top-hat mod" is not safe, doesn't accomplish anything that removing the bump-stop entirely wouldn't accomplish, and actually makes it worse (IMO).

What you're doing should be the "official top-hat mod" and only one suggested for our cars (unless of course someone is able to figure out a way to adapt a G/C kit to fit our cars.

The key here is that you're still retaining the weight bearing section at the underside of the shock tower and spreading it over the entire circumference as the stock strut top does. After that, you're also ensuring that the added travel is able to accept the shock body, because after-all, if you lower your car enough, that body will want to travel beyond the original stopping point (ie. into that tube you're welding in). Without that being a large enough diameter (like the first top-(crap)hat mod), the shock body will still slam into the tower and can cause some serious damage.

But, just like importracer points out, the ideal setup would extend the top-hats the same amount as your drop. (ie. 2" drop means 2" extended top-hat

Shit, if you do end up making these and can lay down a good weld bead, I'll gladly buy a set from you (but I'm with importracer again, as I'd want a little bit thinner wall steel used, only for aesthetic purposes really). I'd even be willing to send you a few sets as cores so you can get to work dammit.

[LowSider]

Sorry guys life has been hectic, the hats are complete and in primer right now. Ill post this picture and give the breakdown on other things ive changed along the way soon.

[LowSider]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2788/img0248lz.jpg

[markmdz89hatch]

eagerly awaiting more! very nice so far. thanks for posting.

[import racer]

What do you plan on using to open up the front shock tower openings so the top hats will fit.

[LowSider]

So a few things have changed since the original post most notably the pipe I used to extend the hats. I originally had picked up the two sizes of pipe in mild steel tubing. Before fabbing the hats up I tried pushing the lower bushing thru this pipe, it wouldnt fit, as well I felt the clearance between the shock body and the tube wall was to close on the smaller pipe to be used for the front. I ended up changing to regular old steel exhaust tubing, thinner wall thickness and the fact that you can get the amount needed to do this free from any exhaust shop sealed the deal.

Here they are blasted primed and painted ready for install.
Rear
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/470/img0252i.jpg
Front
http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/2499/img0253gk.jpg

You'll note the new hardware. I had initially pushed out the studs because I had planned on doing the original top hat mod from this forum. This step probably isnt nessesary in doing this variation, althought it may have made the cutting off of the bushing cups easier. It does make things slightly more complicated as now the hardware is seperate (hardware is grade 8 - 3/8 x 1" with two spring washers per bolt) from the hat meaning it will need to be bolted to the car FIRST and have the strut installed afterwards instead of as one complete unit. You'll also note that no project is without its flaws, as I failed to pay attention to the fact that I needed to flip the base of the front hats over to have the correct orientation (since the bushing cup is originally under it not on top) I plan to simply put in washers to accomadate for the gap that will be caused by the small lip that is now against the tower.

For springs I have gone a different direction as well. Since these shocks are simply not strong enough to handle the ebay coils I decided to use a half stack of stock Accord coils in the front, cut using a chop saw to attain a flat top on the last wrap of coil.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1504/img0255qd.jpg

I made two sets of these, but I also made another set for the rear out of some stock Honda Civic sedan front coils I had laying about, I wanted to try these before using accord front half stacks in the rear becuase they are a lighter gauge of spring. To accomadate this I left an extra wrap of coil on this set, anticipating they will probably sink lower under the weight of the car that the fronts will.
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9548/img02540.jpg

My thinking behind using these coils is that being that they are stock coils they will obviously be nowhere near as stiff even with the increased spring rate from cutting them. I believe that with the top hat extensions and the softer coils, there is no reason this car shouldnt ride almost like stock at this much lower ride height.

Now to accomadate the mini coils that are being used in the rear (the stock accord are the larger diameter springs) I simply used the original rubber insert spring pearch for the rear,
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6849/img0257t0.jpg
But then as well put one of the rubber pearches that come stock in the front struts (which convientiently fits perfectly inside the rear perch with no modification)
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6054/img0259d0.jpg
Also very convienient is that the stock hole in the smaller perch still allows the shock to travel thru it without any cutting.

The rear struts of course that the spring perches cut down and had large washers welded in as the new perches, once again wraping the shock body with a long rubber washer to secure the coilover sleeve.
Complete rear strut
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6530/img0251jd.jpg

Now the front
The front had an issue, since the front shocks are so short the coilver sleeve actually was taller then the top of the shock body, this would not allow the shock to travel up into the new top hat because it would be running into the tower. I realized I would never need 4 inches of adjustability and basically cut my new set of coilover sleeves in half and used the short section on the front leaving room for full shock travel
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4296/img0256bg.jpg

Another issue with the front and how short the shocks are, is that with the extension the shock does not reach the extended top hat with the spring in place, so for the front I will need to use a spring compressor even tho I am only running a half stack of coil (give you a pretty good idea of the amount of extension in the hat. 2.75 inches to be exact, PLUS the bushing cups on top)

As for fitting the new top hats thru, the rears should fit without any clearancing needed. The front I will be using a air powered rotary grinder with a steel rasp bit on it, shouldnt need to much to be taken out and with this tool it shouldnt take long.

[LowSider]

double post

[1813mdw]

This looks like alot better of a route than the original tophat mod; looks safer, and clean too. nice work!

[LowSider]

Update:

I did the rear install, the pictures above show me putting a front top spring perch into the rear top spring perch. This worked, but the center needed to be carved out to give a little more clearance for the shock body to pass through, I did this using a air die grinder and a rotary file, It wasn't to difficult or time consuming, I will need to do the same thing for the front. Because I have the two pads in there now as opposed to just the urethane spring perch that come with these coil overs there is about 1.5" of extra material above the spring now. The coil over sleeve also sits about 0.5" higher due to my big washer spring perch at the bottom. I ended up cutting a set of stock Accord front coils down to only FOUR wraps. Despite the really short stack this car rides like a cadillac now even tho the front still has the overly strong ebay coils in.

Something I will note is, that while the ride is really great now, even cut way down the stock spring may have to much give to them for when I go ahead and put on some deep wheels with tight fender clearance. But from what I can tell so far is that having the shock in the middle of its stroke instead of already almost at the end of the stroke is clearly much more effective and may be sufficient enough to handle the hard ebay coils.

The shocks I just installed were not new either just out of a car that was parted out, which makes me think that a new set of OEM shocks and this modification is really all these cars need.

[obdriver6]

Has anybody else done this?

[Warren 88 Accord]

finished pics????

[2oodoor]

I want to do this but I am throughly confused with all the changes.
Any way to simplify the hardware needed, cuts and welds?

[Honda Man]

Im bringing attention back to this because I know we ALL want this done so we can safely lower our cars with out coilover pirces. is there any other updates or a different tophat mod? i want to know because im lowered 3" springs and stock shocks :( super fail i know

[A18A]

i done it to my back shocks so my lowering springs would be captive, worked mint mint for me
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3428/img2382medium.jpg
pretty much just cut the mounting point off and welded a bit of pipe in between like in the original posts

[obdriver6]

I would say the rears are the easiest since you just cut and weld. The fronts are a bit more challenging, you could do the same method thats in this thread (cut, re-weld, cut a bigger hole on the strut tower) or you could do the original top hat mod. I keep forgetting to post my version of the front top hat.

[LowSider]

Sorry i never came back

Im currently running a full set of ef civic AGX adjustable shocks, coilover sleeves, trimmed coils (from the $20 set of of sleeve coilovers from ebay) and the welded top hats ill try to remeber to grab some pictures. The EG civic rears were much shorter than the factory accords so i had to take out some of the extension i had welded in.

Ill update this post in a while the cars has been slammed for almost 4 years now, and things are feeling pretty loose. Im going to make clearance pockets in the front inner fenders for the upper arms and do all the bushings and ball joints.

[obdriver6]

How are the extended top hats holding?

[SQ is the SQUAD]

exactly how tall should my front and rear tophats be? i am just goint to run a 1.6" drop all around on stock shocks.

if i upgrade to ef AGX, will the shorter rear shock cause my car to be lower in the rear? is it a noticeable amount?

[obdriver6]

You usually want to extend the top hat the same amount you plan to drop or less but never more since you'll end up preloading the springs. Example: You plan on dropping 2". You'll need to make a 2" extended top hat or smaller, 1.5" or 1" and so on, but if you make it bigger, 2.5" or 3", you'll preload the spring.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

the $65 ebay springs i am looking at are advertising a 1.6" drop. so if i make my top hats 1.5" i should be good? trying to get the best ride possible.

[2oodoor]

It would take some calculations with uneducated guessing to say exactly what drop those springs actually accomplish. I went through this and wound up with pogo stick springs with way too much preload by doing a 2.25 extended tophat with alleged 2.25 drop springs. The extended hats are so easy to make I would just make them an inch or just cut out the cups from the oem hats and re weld it at the top of the ring that is left. That comes out to about an inch, but just make sure the rubbers fit in nice and dress up the welds to remove the sharp burrs.
I had to use a hole saw to open up the shock towers.
It seem like the preload issue is mainly with the front assemblies, because the rear gave me no issues with the extensions. One thing I would advise though is to get as much weight off the front as possible, relocating the battery is a good one.
From what Ive read here and on other sites you wouldn't even need any tophat mod with the 1.6 but as I have discovered the hard way, no car or combination of parts will be quite the same and it will always be trail by error when putting together an economical tight low and smooth riding car.
Picture is of the way too much 2.25 extension mounted in the car..actually the measurement from the center of the cup would have been closer to 3 inches, which was likely more of the problem. Just cutting the cup out of the ring and butting it up to the ring looks to be about an inch.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/Mobile%20Uploads/0914121628_zps723a5c2c.jpg

[mykwikcoupe]

I like that setup roodoo, when r u going to make me a set. I think a 1.5 inch set would suffice.

[import racer]

So you're saying go less than your drop.my springs are 2.25 drop so I should use 2" tubing length.

[2oodoor]

No, personally I would use .50 to 1.5 inch max, to be on the safe side not having to do it twice lol you're still gaining some shock travel back.
When it comes time to fit the shock to the tophat (minus the spring for now) you need to make sure the body of the shock will fit inside the tube tophat piece or the shock will bottom out on the lower side of the fendEr tower later, which defeats the purpose! It will move that far sometimes on potholes and road bumps.
Cut the yellow rubber bump stops in half ( use one half for each side r&L, this is another half inch to an inch travel gained) now when you go to assemble the shock/spring/ tophat ;if you have to press the spring down with the spring compressor excessively (5 or more inches for example) far to even get the shock nut on, it's going to really preload that spring which could make the car front end pop up harshly when it unloads after compressing while you're driving...depends on your particular set up.
Kwikcoupe I am not working now and have no access to metalworking equipment at this time. They are incredably easy to make though. :(


If you ever looked at early model Ford 60's and 70's etc they all had shock tower extensions that riveted or bolted on...same principle, just different ways to get there and a general observation to help understand the objective.

Clarifying...
Im not talking about full slams here , just performance springs made for 3 gens.

I don't see anything wrong with the two bolt aftermarket tophats if you redrill and take care not to damage the integrity of the fender tower.

[import racer]

OH ok,I wonder if u would gain enough if u flip the front top hat and put the studs back in on the other side.

[2oodoor]

Those studs are tough to get out without destroying the disc and the studs. If I were going through that much metal work , may as well do it with pipe.

[import racer]

Can u buy those studs,since they're hard to get out then u have to cut them.

[import racer]

It would be pretty hard to cut the top hat without removing the studs .

[2oodoor]

nope, chuck it up in a sturdy vise and use a die grinder, that part was easy but it takes a steady hand. Removing the studs is never necessary! It does take a nice fresh disc on the grinder to get in there, cutting at a slight angle then dressing it off afterwards for the fitting and welding.
It does take repositioning in the vise a few times to get all the way around it and you want to cut as close as possible to preserve the shock bushing cup. When the tophat is cut all you will have is a ring with studs in it.
Those of you tuning in late, read post 21 very carefully and please read the whole thread if you're interested in this extended tophat mod. There are forums for other Honda made cars as well as other makes, that discuss this same type of modification as well.

[import racer]

Well all I have is an angle grinder but no vise.Guess I'll have to pick one up before I do this.

[2oodoor]

oh about time you display your car! looks nice.
You could fees-ably do it with a dremel but it would take a while.

[import racer]

That's my old ride,It looked good on the outside but was rusted out under the dash and the floor.More work than I could do at the time so I stripped it and junked the car.My sei is in primer right now ,nothing worth taking pics of til I get some paint on her.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

i just ordered h&r springs. i think i am going to run EF AGX shocks all around. ill leave the rears as is. for the front i might cut the lip, flip it and maybe add 1/2 and inch.