Also having inconsistent starting issues.

[shattered.likeness]

Already introduced myself in the intro forum, so I guess I'll dive right in describe what's going wrong.

First though, here's what I've already replaced on my '87 LXi:

- K&N air filter
- NGK plug wires
- Bosch Platinum 4 plugs
- Front brake pads and rotors
- Rear brake shoes and wheel cylinders
- Exhaust from the catalytic converter back (glass pack exhaust)
- Distributor cap & button
- Igniter
- Radiator
- Valve cover gasket
- Water pump (replaced today)
- Rewired the cooling fan (didn't like how it had to be done, but it works)


Ok, so here the problem:

Bought the LXi exactly two weeks ago with 196,000 miles on it. Once it starts, it runs like a dream. Especially since the water pump is no longer spewing water so bad that I couldn't drive it 5 miles without it trying to overheat. It was also leaking about a quart or two of oil every two days, Valve Cover Gasket fixed that one. The problem is that it doesn't like to start. Sometimes, it will crank on the first try, immediately. Other times it takes 50 or more tries to get it started.

I've already found another one of the issues it was having. When I let my girlfriend's dad change the sparkplugs and wires for me while I was at class, he didn't clean the head at all before putting the plugs in. Due to the valve cover gasket leaking profusely, the area the spark plugs go into was caked in grease and oil. I removed each of the plugs, and cleaned the area where each plug goes in, and now there isn't any gunk build up on the spark plugs.

Even after the cleaning session, it is still not wanting to crank like it should. Had to spray starter fluid in the air intake to be able to get it back home this afternoon. Her father is now telling me that he thinks that the head gasket it shot, or the head is cracked.

Other information/ issues that might be related to help me diagnose this issue:

- A little bit of water coming from the tail pipe along with some white smoke when it starts and after the first few seconds idling.
- The "black box" that I am guess holds the vacuum lines occasionally will make a "clicking" noise for a few seconds, even if the car is not running.
- Heavy gas smell when trying to crank after several times
- Wiring harness under the driver's side carpet has one wire not really connected (blue and white wire on the outside of the harness)
- I've checked all of the fuses under the hood and under the dash (with the exception of the ones that your can't see inside of)

Let me know if you need any other information from me to help me with this issue. I can post pictures of the engine compartment tomorrow once the sun comes up.

[nswst8]

Compression test, is there water mixing with the oil or oil mixing with the coolant. A leak down test can help determine the leaking area. White smoke = steam which is moisture or coolant in the exhaust. That can mean blown head gasket.

[shattered.likeness]

Going to have to look up how to do a compression test. There is no oil in the coolant, at least not that I have seen since replacing and bleeding the water pump today. I'll be sure to check that first thing in the morning though.

Just in case it is a blown head gasket or cracked head, does anyone know somewhere online to pick up a good cylinder head and gaskets? Only one I've been able to find so far is at americancylinderheads.com for $495 + about $40 for a gasket.

For that price would it just be better to replace the entire engine? I found a used A20A3 on ebay for $250.

I would have posted the links, but I need more than 5 posts to be able to post links.

[w261w261]

Inconsistent starting can sometimes be blamed on two of the most common failure points of the 3G: the main relay and the temperature sensor that's by the thermostat. If it's the sensor, you may be getting 6 flashes on the engine computer under the driver's seat....or you may not. Have you checked for any flashing on the CPU?

The main relay is located behind the change drawer on the left dash (remove the drawer, the relay is up on the left). They're famous for failing....and GL getting it out. See the numerous PITA descriptions on the board here. If you having a problem with starting, find the main relay and give it a little whack with a wrench or something. See if that helps. If it does, it's relay time.

When you have installed a new temp sensor and bled the system, before you get all hot and bothered about a new head, go get a bottle of Barr's cooling system sealer (the bottle looks like it has little worms inside). Put in ONLY WHAT IS SPECIFIED FOR A 4 CYL ENGINE, not more...things can get plugged up otherwise. That might solve your problem. But bleed the system before doing Barrs, otherwise those fresh little worms think the bleeder valve is a leak and try to seal it up.

GL.

[shattered.likeness]

I've tried looking under the driver's seat for the lights, but none come on. Now that I think of it, the PGM-FI light hardly ever comes on even when trying to start the car. Ever since I replaced the igniter, the light hasn't come on while driving.

As far as the main relay goes, I'll see if I can find some pics and more info on it here on the boards.

Now as for your suggestion for Barrs cooling system sealer, great minds seem to think alike. I picked some up on the way home tonight, but have been hesitant to use it. I did make sure to completely bleed the cooling system when I changed the water pump earlier, so I should be ok to use the Barr's. I've had just always personally felt that using those types of sealants just masked a bigger problem, and had been told that they can lead to bigger problems down the road.

If it probably won't end up screwing things up worse, I'm game to try it. Especially if it means that it might last me until this coming February. Have to wait until my next Pell Grant/ loan to come in to do much more work to it.

[w261w261]

If you have like hoses leaking or other gross things, Barr's is not the solution. But a small leak it works fine. I've used it in my cars for years...it's particularly good if the heater core starts to leak.

When you say you checked for flashes on the CPU...do you know how to do it?

Both the temp sensor and the main relay will cause intermittent hard starting until it won't start at all.

[shattered.likeness]

Just remembered about this: Ecu Codes and How to check them (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26342)

Each time I tried to check it, I didn't actually try to start the car... I just turned the key to the "on" position. :uh:

I'll head outside, and see if I can get it to start in a few minutes.

EDIT: Even when starting the car, no lights come on. Just a thought, but could the light on the ECU have blown, and that's why I'm not seeing anything?

[Oldblueaccord]

You do just turn the key to the on position to check the codes.

If it starts on starting fluid main relay is very less likely. You have spark.

Have you checked your timing with a timing light?

A compression test test the condition of the motor. If the compression is low the motor might not want to start real well.

wp

[nswst8]

Do not go over board with the Barrs leak. There are other products out there for headgasket leaks. One is "Steel seal" it is rather expensive but less expensive than having to pay for head gasket replacement.

If it were me I'd just replace the gasket, these are easy engines to work on. Head gasket would probably take me 4-5 hours minus the down time for pressure testing the head.

[Dr_Snooz]

Dang. That's a lot of work for a car you've only owned for 2 weeks. Sounds like you have a bit of a project on your hands. No worries though. You've come to the right place for help.


Now as for your suggestion for Barrs cooling system sealer, great minds seem to think alike. I picked some up on the way home tonight, but have been hesitant to use it. I did make sure to completely bleed the cooling system when I changed the water pump earlier, so I should be ok to use the Barr's. I've had just always personally felt that using those types of sealants just masked a bigger problem, and had been told that they can lead to bigger problems down the road.

I used something like Barr's once on my first car. It fixed the leak in the heater core...by making the heater stop working altogether. I don't recommend it myself. It's one of those fixes that seems deceptively simple, but causes other problems and is irreversible once you do it. These cars are in plentiful abundance in every junk yard and you can usually find the parts you need to do a proper fix readily and cheaply. That's just my opinion and you'll have to make up your own mind.


When I let my girlfriend's dad change the sparkplugs and wires for me

You've learned the first lesson of car repair: always do your own work.


Her father is now telling me that he thinks that the head gasket it shot, or the head is cracked.

The second lesson: verify every diagnosis and be absolutely certain (or as close as practical) that you are repairing the right part. The more expensive the repair, the more certain you want to be. There are ways to determine if a head gasket is blown. Looking for fluid contamination is one and based on your inspection, there's nothing wrong with the head gasket or head. Especially if it "runs like a dream." There's definitely nothing wrong with the head.



- Heavy gas smell when trying to crank after several times


This sounds like a leaky injector to me. Injectors get old and stop sealing right. After you turn off the engine, they dribble gas into the cylinder. Then the cylinder is flooded when you go to start the car again. Injectors are usually less than $100. I suspect this is an overdetermined problem though. A new injector will improve matters, but there are likely more problems to sort out before it is solved entirely.


- The "black box" that I am guess holds the vacuum lines occasionally will make a "clicking" noise for a few seconds, even if the car is not running.


I suspect the CEL is trying to tell you why this is happening. Definitely get that code before doing any more repairs.

Good luck in getting her running right. These are great cars and worth the time and trouble of getting them fixed.

[ecogabriel]

From what I have read so far I doubt you have a problem with the cylinder head or gasket. I have yet to find a car with a cracked head that runs perfect when it decides to start.

It seems to me that the story behind those cars is the same: because of their age AND previous owners' NEGLECT (don't throw money on an old clunker), problems accumulate one over another and then you deal with a compounded mess and no clear place to start from.

I doubt the light in the ECU (small window you can see when sticking your head behind the drivers' seat and remove the small plastic cover) is blown. I'd be concerned if the PGMFI light dashboard comes on and the LED in the ECU does not flash anything.

Main relay seems a good place to take a look at. Good luck getting at it though; just imagine trying to get your electric antenna out; that is the spot (more or less) where the Main relay is screwed in (yeah, I took my antenna out and made it to work!!!)

Good thing about the main relay is that you may not need to put it back in the same old spot; just get it out and then leave it hanging in there.

Interesting thing is that sometimes you smell fuel and sometimes you need starting fluid; if I remember right the main relay is two relays in one -one for the fuel pump and another for the ignition circuitry.

Leaky injectors solution? Either get new ones or send them to a cleaning service. They put them on machines and check flow and spray pattern. I sent mine to one of those here in GA and the car has run a lot better since then. For about $70-80 it is worth the money

Good luck!

[shattered.likeness]

Ok, well the PGM-FI light is not coming on anymore, and no codes are showing up in the ECU. So that is a good sign.

Now, if there was a problem with the fuel injectors, wouldn't the ECU show me a code 16? Or, would that code only show up if one was completely failing? The only place I've been able to find in my area thus far to clean them though is a local SpeeDee Oil Change. IF I do decide to get new injectors, are there some that are recommended here? I've found these on ebay, and the seller has 100% positive feedback: ACCEL 151255 Performance Fuel Injector (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Accel-151255-New-Multi-Port-Injector-/120565706202?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories ). Or, are the ACCEL 151195's recommended more, or is there any difference that I would notice?

Now I'm also trying to find where I can find the part number for the main relay on here. I know I saw a post somewhere with most of the part numbers... *goes off to search some more*

[ecogabriel]

This is where I got my fuel injectors cleaned

http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/index.php

I don't remember whether fuel injector problems would trigger a code (but I may be wrong) Besides, if the car runs fine when it decides to run it seems something else is going on; you've got some suggestions already

As for the main relay, check rockauto.com; their prices are fine and I have had generally good luck with them.

[shattered.likeness]

UPDATE:

Ok, the PGM-FI light finally came back on, and I ended up getting 12 flashes off of the ECU, meaning the EGR Lift Sensor is defective.

Now, my question is could this be causing the issues I'm having with the car starting? If I don't end up needing to replace the Main Relay yet (and try to find it) then I'd rather not have to.

On a side note, I discovered that the sunroof leaks last night. I don't get drenched if I park it with the nose down, but then all of the water flows down and out below the hood latch, and soaks the driver's side floorboard. I'm just going to take a wild guess that a new seal for the sunroof is going to be a dealer part....

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm just going to take a wild guess that a new seal for the sunroof is going to be a dealer part....

Well, you could always get a $3 tube of silicone from any hardware store.

^^^That's a joke, by the way.

[nswst8]

UPDATE:

Ok, the PGM-FI light finally came back on, and I ended up getting 12 flashes off of the ECU, meaning the EGR Lift Sensor is defective.

Now, my question is could this be causing the issues I'm having with the car starting? If I don't end up needing to replace the Main Relay yet (and try to find it) then I'd rather not have to.

On a side note, I discovered that the sunroof leaks last night. I don't get drenched if I park it with the nose down, but then all of the water flows down and out below the hood latch, and soaks the driver's side floorboard. I'm just going to take a wild guess that a new seal for the sunroof is going to be a dealer part....

Yep. EGR will have an effect on starting. Fix this first.

And you wil have to find a junkyard replacement moonroof. Honda doesn't sell just the gasket for the moonroof

[w261w261]

On a side note, I discovered that the sunroof leaks last night. I don't get drenched if I park it with the nose down, but then all of the water flows down and out below the hood latch, and soaks the driver's side floorboard. I'm just going to take a wild guess that a new seal for the sunroof is going to be a dealer part....

The sunroof is not designed to be waterproof; that's the job of the 4 drains at each corner. Do a search and note the numerous posts, but in short: go in the trunk, remove the panels with a panel removal tool (a screwdriver will mess up the buttons), grab the plastic tubing drain hoses that you'll see once the panels are off. Remove flapper valve and plug of dirt from the end (keep a can handy to drain off what's backed up in the hose). Reinstall. You're done.

The front drains come out behind the fender liners in the wheel wells. They're harder to clean out, but it's the rears that usually plug up.

[kentwat]

At least you know the light in the cpu isn't burnt.:lol: My pgm-fi light would come on after driving and it had the same code. In the 86-89 manual there is a sequence of tests to check exactly what is at fault. There is a thread for a free pdf manual also. Search for your code we had a good thread when mine was messed up. I swapped out egr's from the pullapart and cleaned then etc. Turned out to be a small vacuum cvc in the black box on the firewall. The manual is definitely your friend on this one. Several people gave great feedback. Patience was the key.

[shattered.likeness]

Dropped by Precision Tune today for a quick oil change (it was raining, and already had the parts and oil), and talked to one of the techs there. He's one of the "Honda guys" around town, a tight knit clique of friends who all used to be techs at a Honda dealership, and would be a good fit for this site if the had a 3G.

Anyways, we were looking at the engine when it was having a hard time starting after the oil change, and noticed that there is an air leak from above the number 1 spark plug. Turns out I'm going to need to get them to drill, tap, and helicoil that plug. Says we should be able to do it for about $150. So, between that and the EGR, I think I may have it running right. Now, it's all a matter of figuring out a way to afford the EGR valve and labor for the plug. Oh, and finding somewhere in the area that sells 13" tires.

@w261w261

Thanks for the info on how to clean out the drains. I'm going to have to clean out all 4, as the rear drains are clogged, and the drivers side is as well. Gives me a project for tomorrow afternoon.

[ecogabriel]

Forget about getting a brand-new EGR. Look for my posts I found a way to test whether the valve works while in the car (or in the junkyard). You'll only need a vacuum pump and a multimeter.

If worse comes to worse, and the EGR valve is itself defective -you need to check the circuit (vacuum and electrical) first I got a spare working EGR valve. I had a code 12 a few months ago and went to pull a working valve (it turned out I have a clogged vacuum canister...)
I have no use for it so it'll go for what the pullapart would charge (about $10) plus shipping. Get the U.S. 89 manual for the EGR testing (that's Dr Snooz's); notice though that the vacuum circuit and the EGR solenoid is slightly different from those in 86-87s. besides the solenoid and the vacuum canister all the other parts are interchangeable.

I (several of us, in fact) had a post with someone who could not pass smog because of an EGR problem and then a NOx problem. There were photos in that thread too... search; it's in here somewhere

I believe your problem is more the air leak (or something else, like the main relay) than the EGR valve though. Unless the valve is itself physically stuck partially open it won't work until engine is warmed up and ECU enters closed loop.

[Dr_Snooz]

His black box is clicking randomly, so I'd bet there is something going on in there.

Simply buying a new EGR is about 90% certain to result in a lighter waller without fixing the problem. The CEL indicates a problem in the EGR circuit. You have to test each module in the circuit under different conditions to find the one that's causing the problem. If you want to take a chance on swapping a part, you can open the black box on the firewall, find the module that is clicking and replace it with a junkyard swap. That might get you there but it's iffy.

I'm trying to get someone to loan me an '86 or '87 manual so I can scan and post it along with the '89 manual. Then we'll have the correct troubleshooting procedure for shattered.likeness' EGR.

If anyone knows any takers, PM me please.

[shattered.likeness]

Thanks for the info guys!

I'm thinking about springing for the HelmInc manual. If I do, I'll let you guys know and use my scanner to convert it to PDF.

Also, got the rear drain valves cleaned out today, so it looks like I'll be backing into my driveway until I can get the front two cleaned out. Maybe I'll have enough time to do that tomorrow.

[Demon1024]

Besides the mention of hard hot starts. it sounds like the thermo sensor to me.
When you say ignitor you mean the one on the distributor, or the coil? If not the coil, that'd be my first to replace. Get an accel or msd coil from autozone o'reilly's, ect.

[ecogabriel]

I'm trying to get someone to loan me an '86 or '87 manual so I can scan and post it along with the '89 manual. Then we'll have the correct troubleshooting procedure for shattered.likeness' EGR.

If anyone knows any takers, PM me please.

That would be great! I spent some time figuring out how the system worked; it worked out in the end but it would have been a lot easier with the manual... hope you can get it!

[ecogabriel]

I found the thread about the EGR valve

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66444&highlight=starter+solenoid

It starts on a different note but then it turned to the EGR thing... long but read it when you decide on taking the EGR thing

[shattered.likeness]

Just giving a quick update. Would have updated sooner, but just had my first kid on the first.

Was still having starting issues up until this past Sunday. Then was left stranded behind an Arby's because the starter finally decided to die. Looked all over for a replacement, and finally found one the next day a few towns a away. Get it mounted, and the it won't crank, but the starter is spinning strong. Remounted several times, to make sure nothing got fouled up, and still have the same issue. Finally decided to have it towed to a shop to have it checked out, and have the #1 spark plug retapped.

Tow truck over 3 hours to get it to the shop, so hopefully I'll know what is going on with it tomorrow.

[shattered.likeness]

Last update on this issue hopefully...

Just changed out the Main relay this morning. Took me forever to even find it despite the fact that I have no coin tray to block my view. Starting much better as of now, let's just hope this solves the issue permanently.

EDIT:

Looks like I spoke too soon, and either I ordered the wrong relay from NAPA, or this is not what is causing my problems. Just spent another 15 minutes and finally got it started in time to barely make it work this morning. NAPA told me that there were like 3 different relays, and the one I got cost me about $65. If the service wasn't so bad at my local Honda Dealership, then I'd just take it to them and tell them to fix it.

Anyone live around Western North Carolina that might be able to help me out one weekend to get this figured out once and for all?

[shattered.likeness]

Final Update:

Everything is fixed, Coolant Temp Sensor went bad, and was causing the inconsistent starting issues. Now, the only thing that I'm needing to get is new fuel injector O-rings. The current O-Rings are shot, and leaking a bit of gas, so getting them replaced ASAP.

Then to finally start working on actually getting some horsepower to this car, and finding some replacement parts for the interior.