Starter KAPUT!!

[ecogabriel]

The starter "started" giving some random non-engaging sounds from time to time.

Yesterday it just quit at the train station parking lot. It would grind against the large starter gear but never engage. Being the car a f... automatic I could not push his way back to live; car came back home on a flatbed -a very funny (and unusual) sight for a Honda
Anyway, I did some testing and it seems the small gear is gone -it won't lock but the starter motor itself would spin at good speed (I can hear it) I forced it engaged to the gear ring to rule out weak solenoid but starter motor would spin fast but no cranking.


So, I'm in the market for a reman starter; I would have tried a new gear drive but I have not seen them. I though getting an ACDELCO reman starter -Rockauto has them on closeout.

Anyone has any experience with those?

[2oodoor]

no on the delco, but yep probably better than cardone
anyway. these starters are super easy to recondition as long as the armature is in decent shape.
It could be yours needs cleaning: check copper ring contacts on solenoid plunger, copper rings on armature and brush condition. Bearings on either end should not be froze to shaft.
If the "bendix" is not kickng out then I would gues the solenoid plunger could have arc spots on it from a weak connecton at some point or bad battery.
It would be worth the gamble to get one from the JY too, easy to take off and guaranteed at PAP.

[ecogabriel]

no on the delco, but yep probably better than cardone
anyway. these starters are super easy to recondition as long as the armature is in decent shape.
It could be yours needs cleaning: check copper ring contacts on solenoid plunger, copper rings on armature and brush condition. Bearings on either end should not be froze to shaft.
If the "bendix" is not kickng out then I would gues the solenoid plunger could have arc spots on it from a weak connecton at some point or bad battery.
It would be worth the gamble to get one from the JY too, easy to take off and guaranteed at PAP.

I forgot to say the starter is MITSUBA. No plungers and contacts for this one :omg: I replaced plunger and contacts in two densos (gayota and Civic) and I like those starters

Bendix kicks out fine; I forced the small pinion gear to engage the crank wheel to see if the bendix was the problem. Nope, the gear drive is the problem; starter motor spins fine but engine would not move.

I did not think about JY starters; maybe they are worth a try but I am so f... busy right now... my only experience with ACDELCO stuff is the civic struts; fine for a DD a little stiff but I like them that way. I do not know about remans and in general don't like'em; I'd rather get the parts and fix it myself but not even majestic lists the starter drive anymore

BTW, can one swap a mitsuba for a denso? I've seen densos for manual trans but not for autos...

Thanks for the ideas

[cygnus x-1]

Try ebay. I got a used OEM Denso alt. for like $25 shipped. I could get one at P&P for the same but then I would have to pull it. And I'm lazy.


C|

[charliekuney]

BTW, can one swap a mitsuba for a denso?

Les Schwab said no...

[ecogabriel]

Les Schwab said no...

It seems I'll be hitting the JY this weekend..

[charliekuney]

I remember because the guy was explaining to me why I can't get the Denso (it was cheaper, but my car came with a Mitsuba), but I tuned him out. :flash:

[ecogabriel]

Tried two alts from the jy today and still the same problem. The starter motor spins but the engine would not turn... failed starter drive.

I was a little frustrated, so I decided to take my starter apart (plus the other I had around) to give them a visual inspection. I think I learned a couple of things on what reman guys do
The electrical part looked fine; very good-to-virtually-new brushes (very little to no dust); the copper part where the brushes engage was clean with no noticeable scratches; bearings were OK in one but the other had a kind of sticky bearing -it would turn but it would take force to do that. Remanufacturers tell that they replace all those things in their rebuilt starters. From the visual inspection however, it is not clear that those things need replacement THAT often as I could hardly see any wear at all. One thing is clear; brushes are dirty cheap and a spin at the lathe to smoothen copper contacts is probably very inexpensive.

By comparison, mechanical parts -the starter drive- or the solenoid/bendix assembly are far more expensive; I have seen the bendix/solenoid at about $50 online, and the starter drive I was quoted $65 plus shipping. By comparison, those parts are almost as expensive as a complete reman starter from the autozones and such....

I am wondering whether to get the starter drive and do the reman myself -replacing it is a 20 minutes operation once the starter is out of the car. After all, the electricals are already "remanufactured" so I would be replacing the crap they did not bother to replace... I'll post what I would do

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm not really understanding what your problem is. It sounds like the starter is working fine, but not turning the engine over. Several different starters seem to have the same problem too. Do I have that right? If so, then the obvious question is what condition is your torque converter ring gear in? I've had good luck so far with the starter I got from the junkyard. I was not expecting it to work but it's been great.

[ecogabriel]

I'm not really understanding what your problem is. It sounds like the starter is working fine, but not turning the engine over. Several different starters seem to have the same problem too. Do I have that right? If so, then the obvious question is what condition is your torque converter ring gear in? I've had good luck so far with the starter I got from the junkyard. I was not expecting it to work but it's been great.

Short story: got the car running today -with the 3rd starter.

Long story: in order to get it to crank I had to reduce the load the starter had to move, which means removing one spark plug and starting it in 3 cylinders, then install the 4th once the engine was running... crazy, but it worked.

I had kind of the same thoughts as you Dr had that maybe was something else going on. Ring gear looked fine as long as I could see from the starter opening though. Starter would spin but not crank the engine -all with a grinding noise... After fiddling for a while I got the idea of taking all the spark plugs out and try cranking it; under that lighter load the engine would turn and turn and turn no problem. So the ring gear seemed OK or I would have gotten some kind of noise if one spot was bad.

That experiment gave me the idea of starting it on 3 cylinders with one spark plug out. It cranked for a little while and then it started. Screwing the spark plug in with the engine running was complicated but with a little patience it went in and I did not screw up the thread. I just let it hand-tightened and connected the ignition wire.... Although it worked, and it may be the difference between being stranded in nowhere and getting back home I would certainly not recommend it.

I conclude that the starter drive becomes worn and cannot cope with the stress of cranking the engine. Probably an engine with more wear -less compression- would crank on a marginal starter drive as the stress from the load would be smaller. Or maybe my engine has quite a bit of carbon deposits which raises compression and starter loads beyond what a worn out starter drive can take.

Any thoughts on this?
Please don't stone me for starting it on 3 cylinders and then screwing in the remaining plug with the thing running :violin:

A final thought: JY is a hit-and-miss -I know that but sometimes I forget. First time I went hunting for a EGR valve I came across 2 or 3 defective ones before getting the one that finally cured my code 12 and let the car pass smog. The second time, the very first valve I picked up worked. Same for the small solenoids in the black box; I went through several before getting two that worked (one for the A/C boost and the other for a spare); the second time the first one I picked up was fine...
Maybe I got my share of dead starters or I would say given how starters are remanufactured -it seems that drive gear is replaced only if totally defective- this would be the most likely failure pattern we would find - a spinning starter motor that cannot put its power on the starter gear ring. The three starters -two mitsubas and a denso- turned without problem but none could crank the engine until I came up with that crazy idea of the beginning...

Gotta take a shower and head out of the house: too much stuff to do... sorry for the editing I'm tired...

[AccordEpicenter]

i have a bad feeling that since youve tried 3 starters and all had the same issue more or less, that either your flexplate is cracked or torque converter ring gear is tweaked. I would check your engine to trans bolts and make sure they are tight and take a look at the ring gear and flexplate by pulling off the cover on the bottom of the trans between the engine and trans. youll have to take off the crossmember under the engine though. Honda starters (even mitsubas) are nicely overbuilt and have plenty of power, even used and abused ones. Ive moved the car short distances on the starter motor when it died.

Edit: I would also have somebody try starting the engine while you are looking at the flexplate/torque converter from the the bottom, and see if they are rotating even when you hear the grinding noise, then i would suspect a flexplate problem

[Dr_Snooz]

^^^ Good point. Could be a engine/trans alignment problem too. Those can give you all kinds of joy. I got a guide pin squished between the block and bellhousing when installing the transmission in my '82 Accord. It couldn't have pushed the alignment out by more than 1/16" when squished down, but it was enough to let off such a clattering you'd have thought the world was going to end. It ended up breaking the flex plate.

[lostforawhile]

where are you buying these starters from? don't buy them from advance or autozone, they use the same brand and they are crap. A lot of other people also use the same brand, i went through four of them from advance in a row, all bad out of the box, i finally bnought one from Nappa and it's been fine since. chances are the brushes are junk in it and can't transfer enough current. I'm not sure on Oreilies but you can try, almost all of these starters and alternators are rebuilt as cheaply as possibly in China

[lostforawhile]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-1989-HONDA-ACCORD-2-0-STARTER-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35acac48e2QQitemZ23053 0238690QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

[Civic Accord Honda]

NS and mitsuba are swapable! they didnt make any changes to the transmissons for diffrent starters dontchakno. and i just changed out my dead NS for a rebuilt mitsuba one (old one made a high pitched whining sound... then started sparking and in the end it turned so slow it would not start the car at all would just shoot huge sparks out and smoke like hell also got hot as fuckkk, but 5speed ftw push start ftw!)

ive had for about 25k miles now and its worked great was $140 from vatozone

[Dr_Snooz]

O'Reilly is starting to offer a lot of better parts. They sell Wix filters now and you can buy starters there from both Bosch and AC Delco. It might be worth seeing what they have.

[2oodoor]

oh my. I just remembered I went thru this exact thing with mine at one point. It seemed like the starter drive was just not getting enough current to extend out and run the starter motor at the same time. Sometimes this can be a plunger contact BUT after a half dozen trials what finally fixed it was cleaning the battery terminals. There was this black goo on the terminals, not the typical corrosion. I felt like an idiot, but it was wierd because the starter would work off the car, all electrics seemed to work on the car, but m:nuts: yeah it was voltage dropping big time.

[lostforawhile]

oh my. I just remembered I went thru this exact thing with mine at one point. It seemed like the starter drive was just not getting enough current to extend out and run the starter motor at the same time. Sometimes this can be a plunger contact BUT after a half dozen trials what finally fixed it was cleaning the battery terminals. There was this black goo on the terminals, not the typical corrosion. I felt like an idiot, but it was wierd because the starter would work off the car, all electrics seemed to work on the car, but m:nuts: yeah it was voltage dropping big time.

he also needs to remove and clean the grounds off of the battery, the body, and the engine to body especially, they can look fine but have a layer of corrosion under the terminal.

[AccordEpicenter]

if you have bad grounds it might do it also

[ecogabriel]

Update:

Car still waits to be fixed but the mystery has been solved. No starter problem... no flex plate problem, no trans alignment problem, no wire problems... here it comes the weird part

The ring gear loosened up and displaced away from the point where the starter may engage it.

I measured the distance between the ring gear (side facing the engine) and the inner wall in the bellhousing in my old transmission in the basement.
Distance is about 45mm give/take a couple mm (I used a regular measure tape).
Same measure in my car: about 51mm.
The starter cannot engage at such depth.

I don't know how it happened; now I'm thinking on how to get the ring gear back in place without disassembling the transmission and how to weld it in place. I found a thread on the internet where someone got a similar problem with a car like mine (3G Accord, auto) and got it fixed. Below is the thread

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1149.html

Mine is not loose like that -the whole thing will turn. I believe the welds holding the ring to the TQ case broke (maybe there are no welds; the trans is a rebuilt one) and the starter solenoid hammered it little by little with every start until it moved out of the starter's reach

Weird, weird, weird...

Thanks for the feedback; it gave me things to think about and check/eliminate

[Dr_Snooz]

That is very strange. What's your next step, drop the trans to investigate? That's a lot of work for a simple starter problem. I'm anxious to see what you find.

[lostforawhile]

you need a five speed!

[AccordEpicenter]

if you can gently pry it back so it will engage, then i see no harm in tack welding it to the tq convertor

[ecogabriel]

Update II:

I remove the cross member and the lower cover to get a better shot at the ring gear and converter. The welds attaching the ring gear to the torque converter are broken. Ring gear teeth are not broken thankfully The welds are much smaller than the OE torque converter ones -much shorter (less than half) and less material.

I started turning the engine 1/8 turn at the time and trying to push the ring gear closer to the position my other ring gear is welded. It felt like it was slowly going back into position. Anyway, tried the starter and engaged no problem so I kept the car running for a little while. I'II do some extra pushing tomorrow and measure "before" and "after" to see how much it may go.

As for re-welding it, it can be done without that much fuss from the lower end of the transmission. Even if the welds break again the material will prevent the ring gear from slipping away from the starter.

I have not seen it happening to anyone before except the link I posted to another forum but I will try to document some measures better just in case someone in the future stumbles across the same stupid stone.

Thanks for all the input; I'll keep you posted until the thing is fixed.

PS.: yeah, I should have gotten rid of the f... auto (which I damn hate it!) and do a 5-speed swap.

[lostforawhile]

Update II:

I remove the cross member and the lower cover to get a better shot at the ring gear and converter. The welds attaching the ring gear to the torque converter are broken. Ring gear teeth are not broken thankfully The welds are much smaller than the OE torque converter ones -much shorter (less than half) and less material.

I started turning the engine 1/8 turn at the time and trying to push the ring gear closer to the position my other ring gear is welded. It felt like it was slowly going back into position. Anyway, tried the starter and engaged no problem so I kept the car running for a little while. I'II do some extra pushing tomorrow and measure "before" and "after" to see how much it may go.

As for re-welding it, it can be done without that much fuss from the lower end of the transmission. Even if the welds break again the material will prevent the ring gear from slipping away from the starter.

I have not seen it happening to anyone before except the link I posted to another forum but I will try to document some measures better just in case someone in the future stumbles across the same stupid stone.

Thanks for all the input; I'll keep you posted until the thing is fixed.

PS.: yeah, I should have gotten rid of the f... auto (which I damn hate it!) and do a 5-speed swap.

what brand is this torque converter so people know what to stay away from, or at the least weld better before installation

[ecogabriel]

what brand is this torque converter so people know what to stay away from, or at the least weld better before installation

I believe the trans was rebuilt by AAMCO, and they also provided the torque converter. Yeah you should definitely check those welds; they are not as strong as those in the OE converter -they all broke. Transmission works perfect otherwise... I still have to push the ring gear a little bit more but it is working now without problems... what a f... weird problem! :barf:

I may try doing the welds myself but I have not welded before. Any advice or thoughts?

[Dr_Snooz]

I think learning to weld while lying under a car is a good way to light yourself on fire.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well what was the update on this weird problem.


wp

[ecogabriel]

Well what was the update on this weird problem.


wp

See posting #20.

Solution was remove transmission, get TQ out, re-position ring gear, and weld it again.

If trans is out, revise those welds; a couple of those were already broken in the old transmission (there are 6 of them)