New Head design

[gp02a0083]

was looking into local engine builders for my OLDS 442 clone and found an interesting place ive never noticed and have passed it countless times

http://coatesengine.com/index.html

only downfall is how expensive the new system is , they have somewhere on there a Ford-Lincoln engine stock form was around 260hp, they changed the heads to their design and supposedly did not touch anything else. They almost doubled the horse power.

I gave them a call about an hour ago , after work im going to visit the facility. I think it would be awesome to have their head design on the A20.

[stat1K]

holy shit that's genius!

[2drSE-i]

That is pretty cool. Only thing that bothers me is the lack of oil in the head. Makes me think the bearings will need to be replaced eventually, and at high cost. Let us know what I find out though, this looks awesome

[lostforawhile]

That is pretty cool. Only thing that bothers me is the lack of oil in the head. Makes me think the bearings will need to be replaced eventually, and at high cost. Let us know what I find out though, this looks awesome

you don't need the lubrication, those bronze bushings have the oil impregnated in the bushing, they last for a very long time, and the ends of the shafts are running in Timken bearings, those timkens use high temp grease just like a wheel bearings, and are easy to replace. I've worked with both kinds of bearings for years, this is an adaptation of the valves on the wankel engine, the seals were the main problem, but Mazda came up with new ones. this is probably a similar technology

[Rendon LX-i]

Thats awesome. I would slove all kinds of problems.

[lostforawhile]

the thing about the bearings, is with a conventional cam, the bearings get loaded everytime the cam pushes a rocker, with this design it's just a smooth motion with no loading and unloading, thats why the bronze bushings work. they have used these type of bushings in things like fan motors for years. they quietly work at high speed for years.

[gp02a0083]

you don't need the lubrication, those bronze bushings have the oil impregnated in the bushing, they last for a very long time, and the ends of the shafts are running in Timken bearings, those timkens use high temp grease just like a wheel bearings, and are easy to replace. I've worked with both kinds of bearings for years, this is an adaptation of the valves on the wankel engine, the seals were the main problem, but Mazda came up with new ones. this is probably a similar technology

Lost ur exactly right , i've built a few 13B wankel engines . and it is the same principal that the apex seals work, there a carbon/ceramic material. I asked Mr Greg Coates himself. It was very interesting seeing their operation , very high caliber work going on. I would have to almost put it up in ranking with a Ferrari plant. They also make a lot of motorcycle engines too. I inquired about a head design for the A20 engine , i showed them my black hatch, basically we spent about 3 hours discussing. I dont hink it would be a problem at all to have them produce a head, however the cost involved would be the biggest factor. It depends on the cost, but if this was a viable head swap and from what ive seen gains would indefinitely increase well over 20% , the A20 would become an iron monster......

[MessyHonda]

that looks cool....it must be pretty new

[knifemind]

I dont hink it would be a problem at all to have them produce a head, however the cost involved would be the biggest factor. It depends on the cost, but if this was a viable head swap and from what ive seen gains would indefinitely increase well over 20% , the A20 would become an iron monster......

If you get any more info, please share. Looks like my year end bonus might come in handy?

[2drSE-i]

I'm assuming the cost will be greater than 2k, not that its not worth it. Depeneding on specifics, id be pretty interested too

[AccordB20A]

pretty neat idea. what sort of revs would it take? i guess you wont drop a valve from over revving with this setup, and valve float would be eliminated also.

[2drSE-i]

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/23/business/engine-inventor-accused-of-fraud.html

Sorry guys, got too curious. I was starting to wonder why I hadn't heard more about this.

[Vanilla Sky]

Was I one of few to catch the lack of science on the website? There are some real gems in there.
http://coatesengine.com/engine_of_the_future.html

[Hauntd ca3]

unless i'm mistaken" and lost will know something i hope" the rotary valve isnt to far removed from the sleeve valve used in the hawker sea fury airplane of the late forties and early fifties.
the saefury was the fastest prop driven aircraft ever with a mach number of about .85 or .9.
it wasnt a turbine like most modern prop driven passenger aircraft but was an 18 cylinder piston motor

[Tomisimo]

instead of going 12V, why not give them a 16V head and iron block to work on? Than 2K would be worth it!!!

they basically will design the same head but with their technology right? Well, IMO, the 16V head exists, iron and alu. block are almost hte same cast. if they manage to redesign coolant channels and bolt pattern, than it would be a direct swap. Iron block with 16V B20a head-alike.
Now that would be awesome!!

I will add one more thing. B18B distributor mounts, making it easy for OBD1 conversion and tuning capabilities.

[Vanilla Sky]

I think you guys are a few orders of magnitude off on your price estimates. $2000 wouldn't get me out of bed if this were my business. $20,000 might make me think your serious, but I don't see that covering even a portion of R&D costs. $200,000 is a hell of a lot closer.

I'm just being realistic here. These guys might have a nice looking design and be able to put on one hell of a horse and pony show, but the guy running things has been arrested for fraud, which is directly associated with this "business." I was skeptical at first, but now that 2drSE-i (http://www.3geez.com/forum/member.php?u=5805) has pointed out that this business is a sham, I think you guys should put your pipe dreams away and pick up some tools and actually make something.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0604/042.html

[2drSE-i]

After fidning that article, I challenege anyone to find a single shred of evidence that his engines do anything they say. Problem is, not one forum, independent lab, or end user has one of these motors. The guy is making an insane amount of money and not selling shit.

[gp02a0083]

yah honestly this is a great idea, and i did do my homework on the company, they started this developing this in the late 90's and yes the one founder has been caught up in money laundrying and other illegal things. To have them just consider building a motorcycle engine your looking for at least 10 to 15k at least. To have them develop a head design for the A20, i could probably go out and buy new 370Z. I thought it would be a great idea, given the cost could be driven down

[stat1K]

After fidning that article, I challenege anyone to find a single shred of evidence that his engines do anything they say. Problem is, not one forum, independent lab, or end user has one of these motors. The guy is making an insane amount of money and not selling shit.

that article was published in 1994. 16 years ago he may have been claiming something that wasn't true, but after 16 years i'd hope that with the facility they show that he isn't just making random things for show and putting them in the warehouse lol...

i hate to be the lone conspirator always but if an engine uses less oil and doesn't need maintenance as often where's the incentive for a company to sell it?

[knifemind]

I asked Mr Greg Coates himself. It was very interesting seeing their operation , very high caliber work going on. I would have to almost put it up in ranking with a Ferrari plant. They also make a lot of motorcycle engines too. I inquired about a head design for the A20 engine , i showed them my black hatch, basically we spent about 3 hours discussing

Did he come across as phoney? Like stat1k said, that was 15+ years ago. I couldn't find anything about what has happened in the interim. But conversely, there still isn't a single video of one of these things in action.

Why don't you go down there and call him out, so to speak? Get a legit demonstration, if such a thing exists.

[Vanilla Sky]

According to some investment sites I checked out, these guys have orders for motors that they haven't fulfilled. They haven't shown a single motor running to the public, even to investors.

Google this guy and his company. Nothing out there shows them in a positive light, other than their own website.

[gp02a0083]

he did sound kinda full of BS. I asked if i could see the emission readouts that they claim on the website, needless to say he was reluctant. there was a fair amount of engines / heads laying around , not a lot of work being done. I don't think they really have sold the product at all due to the high cost. After reading some articles from 1994-1999, i don't think i will visit there again.

[stat1K]

lol, too bad, i wonder how they pay the rent?

[Vanilla Sky]

lol, too bad, i wonder how they pay the rent?

By conning investors out of their money.

[2drSE-i]

By conning investors out of their money.

Just like last time

[stat1K]

i guess some people are excellent con-artists, i feel that this is quite an elaborate con to not even have media to hand to possible investors... i mean, in this case our OP here asked for something regarding the emissions testing. they should have at least a fake printout or something right? i guess if they hype it up it will get blown up by the media and people will come forward stating how much of a fraud it is. seems logical too, i just find it hard to believe that a commercial sized warehouse would be rented off of defrauding investors. again, i guess there are several ways one could do this, hell it could even be a shell company for money laundering. who knows...

[markmdz89hatch]

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/23/business/engine-inventor-accused-of-fraud.html

Sorry guys, got too curious. I was starting to wonder why I hadn't heard more about this.

Look at the date published though: July 23rd, 1994.
The fact that Dave talked to him just the other day and the fact that he's still in business tells me there's a follow-up article to this one posted, which we have yet to see.

I'm not saying I buy into the whole idea, but just playing devils' advocate.

I'm with Tom though, if we were to spend and sort of $$ on a wicked cool head design like this, I'd want to go the route of a 16V unless he (Coates) was going to reshape the entire cumbustion chamber as a whole, but by going the 16V route (or at least a DOHC [12v or 16v]) we (the efi guys) might be able to get a direct injection style setup.

...but then again, you can just buy a Z32 TT for the money you'd spend on that head and you'd end up with your 3G still a fun car, but a RWD monster too. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[stat1K]

for all the work into a head design you could easily have someone swap whatever motor you wanted into the car and still get off the shelf aftermarket parts for the engine.

[markmdz89hatch]

on second thought, this is looking a hell of a lot like a company I was talking to a few months back only to get the cold shoulder once I started asking some involved questions:

http://www.reventonreplicaroadster.com/new_realeases.php