B20a Automatic-transmission Problem

[Lxi4647]

Hi all... I'm having problem with my transmission.. All of sudden it wont shift to the 4th gear... Met a few mechanics but it seems that they all have different opinion about my problems.. some says that i should change my tranny, some says that i should change the torque converter ( i don't know what is torque converter).. by the way, i'm not having problem with other gears.. 1 of my friend recommended me to 'flush' the tranny first and in Malaysia, transmission flush is quite expensive:nuts:... any idea guys??

Thanx

[AccordB20A]

well if all other gears work its not the torque converter. is your D3 gear the same as your D4 gear? if so there may be an internal problem with the shifter or your 4th gear decided to give up, flushing it may help but since your in malaysia its probably best to throw that auto box away and convert to 5 speed. seems all b20a auto boxes fuck out, too much power haha

[Lxi4647]

well if all other gears work its not the torque converter. is your D3 gear the same as your D4 gear? if so there may be an internal problem with the shifter or your 4th gear decided to give up, flushing it may help but since your in malaysia its probably best to throw that auto box away and convert to 5 speed. seems all b20a auto boxes fuck out, too much power haha


I dont quite understand by your question if my D3 the same with my D4.. yeah, thats what i i had in mind..maybe i'll try to flush my tranny first but if that doesn't work, convert to 5 speed... hhehehe :devil:... thanx anyway

[2oodoor]

two more simple things to examine are the throttle valve cable operation and then the converter lock up solenoids on top of the bell housing.

Also if you have noticed you need to press the accelerator further than you used to in order to make it go, that would also indicate you have an engine performance issue... this would also keep the transmission from upshifting normally because youre holding the throttle down further which would keep the throttle valve cable going to the transmisssion from being in the right position to allow upshifts.

[Lxi4647]

two more simple things to examine are the throttle valve cable operation and then the converter lock up solenoids on top of the bell housing.

Also if you have noticed you need to press the accelerator further than you used to in order to make it go, that would also indicate you have an engine performance issue... this would also keep the transmission from upshifting normally because youre holding the throttle down further which would keep the throttle valve cable going to the transmisssion from being in the right position to allow upshifts.

wooaahh thats new... will you explain more how to examine the TV cable.. i know that its the cable that connected between the tranny and the throttle body, right?? and im still trying to locate the converter lock up solenoids that u said.. sorry, newbie...

[Oldblueaccord]

I think the setup is the same as a 4th generation Honda Accord. There should be solenoids with 2 wires attached on the transmission housing. They affect how and when the transmission shifts. I think they are also computer controled.

wp

[2oodoor]

^^^ no the B20a still uses the TV cable for shift valve control but it also uses a transmission electronic control for the lock up converter Tcc.
When I did my swap, of course I had a carbed car and use a carb on my B20a with an automatic. \Guess what.. no TCM...I couldnt find any domestic applications by Honda that used the same set up as the JDM B20a but by studying a 3rd gen prelude transmission diagnostic flow chart I figured out exactly what the TCM does for lock ups. I just ran fused power wires on each solenoid and control them with toggle switches :tongue: I only use TCC at highway speeds, one solenoid is partial lock up the other is full so I use partial to initate lock up then power both on, then on long coasting grades or decelerations I use partial. Paying close attention not to leave it on when it comes to a stop. Otherwise they stay off in traffic and on at 60mph and up.

[AccordB20A]

^^ if its a early gold top it has no solenoids at all just TV cable

[88Accord-DX]

^^ if its a early gold top it has no solenoids at all just TV cable

IF that is the case it, it have a governor to control transmission pressure to control shift points.

(talking old school transmission operation in early transmissions )

[Lxi4647]

Sorry guys, but i'm totally lost. I couldn't find the solenoid either.. Any threads that i can refer to? Thanx:uh:

[2oodoor]

The two bottle cap looking objects side by side are the solenoids,
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t280/roodoo2/P7200201.jpg

[2oodoor]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40885
here is link to how to adjust transmission cable

[Lxi4647]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40885
here is link to how to adjust transmission cable

Finally, i found the solenoids.. They were covered with oil..After washing my engine, i can see the solenoids but I've no idea how to examine it. Can you explain how to check the solenoids please and by the way, what is the function of the solenoids?... Then I did a roughly check with the TV cable.. I didn't do any adjustment since it was in good condition i guess (from my observation).. Anyway thanks for the link.. It helps me a lot to understand about the shifter more clearly.. :cool:

[2oodoor]

Finally, i found the solenoids.. They were covered with oil..After washing my engine, i can see the solenoids but I've no idea how to examine it. Can you explain how to check the solenoids please and by the way, what is the function of the solenoids?... Then I did a roughly check with the TV cable.. I didn't do any adjustment since it was in good condition i guess (from my observation).. Anyway thanks for the link.. It helps me a lot to understand about the shifter more clearly.. :cool:

That is pretty much explained in my previous posts on your thread here!
In Basic general terms...

Unlike 4th gen accords and newer, these solenoids only control torque converter lock up which puts the engine 1 on 1 directly to final drive and not thru the TQ coupling. That is useful when going highway speeds, it drops the engine rpms so you conserve fuel and wear on the engine.
Solenoids on 4th gen and newer (USDM) also control shift valves.

[Lxi4647]

But then how to ensure those solenoids are in good condotion? I mean how to examine them...

[Dr_Snooz]

There should be a connector with two wires going to it. Disconnect the connector and measure the resistance between each wire (on the solenoid side, not the harness side) and a body ground source. It should be between 12 and 24 ohms. Then power each solenoid in turn with 12v. You should hear a click. If not, the solenoids are bad.

Roo, that's from the 4g manual. Let me know if that doesn't look right to you.

[88Accord-DX]

If them solenoids aren't to bad in price, you might want to try replacing 3-4 shift solenoind or both & see how it does. If that don't do it, the clutch packs are probably shot.

(to test & diagnose, you really need a transmission pressure gauge....fluid pressures pretty much give you a good idea of what is going on. MORE advanced troubleshooting will require & some schematics on both electrical & a blue print of internal transmission fluid schematics)

[2oodoor]

If them solenoids aren't to bad in price, you might want to try replacing 3-4 shift solenoind or both & see how it does. If that don't do it, the clutch packs are probably shot.

(to test & diagnose, you really need a transmission pressure gauge....fluid pressures pretty much give you a good idea of what is going on. MORE advanced troubleshooting will require & some schematics on both electrical & a blue print of internal transmission fluid schematics)

Again, unless the 3geez EDM B20A automatic tranny is very different than the JDM then this car does not use them. The solenoids on these are only for TC lockup.


The 4th gen is when they started using those for shift solenoids. :wave:

[88Accord-DX]

The solenoids on these are only for TC lockup.
The 4th gen is when they started using those for shift solenoids. :wave:
LOL, I'm not too familar with these old trannys. I need to read the thread a little more in depth, seen the word "solenoid" & so used to seeing shift solenoids going out.

[Lxi4647]

But then the method to examine the solenoids should be the same right??

[Dr_Snooz]

Again, unless the 3geez EDM B20A automatic tranny is very different than the JDM then this car does not use them. The solenoids on these are only for TC lockup.


The 4th gen is when they started using those for shift solenoids. :wave:

The top set of solenoids control the lockup on the 4g trannies. There is another set lower set that controls shifting.

LXI 4647, try the test I outlined above and report back what you learn.

[Lxi4647]

I already unplugged the soleniods and checked the resistance.. It was 37-40 ohm... Higher than the one that you said.. Do i need to change it or what???

[Dr_Snooz]

I honestly don't think it's your solenoids. I'd start with a flush. It may be expensive but it's a lot cheaper than a new trans.

When you say it won't shift into 4th. Describe what's happening in a little more detail. Is it just like the gear no longer exists in the trans or is it that the trans takes longer than usual to engage? Are you absolutely certain it's 4th or is it the lock-up mechanism? Has something happened recently to the car that we should know about? Give us something more to work with.

[Lxi4647]

I honestly don't think it's your solenoids. I'd start with a flush. It may be expensive but it's a lot cheaper than a new trans.

When you say it won't shift into 4th. Describe what's happening in a little more detail. Is it just like the gear no longer exists in the trans or is it that the trans takes longer than usual to engage? Are you absolutely certain it's 4th or is it the lock-up mechanism? Has something happened recently to the car that we should know about? Give us something more to work with.

It all started when im cruising on the highway.. At first, the 4th gear was doing just fine until i started to increase my speed.. As usual, when you put your foot more on the gas pedal, it will drop to the 3rd gear. After that it wont shift back to the 4th gear until now. But when you put the gear into the D4 mode, all gears are working except the 4th!! Nothing happened to the car as far as i remember. 1 thing i forgot to mention is that after that long drive on the 3rd gear, the reverse gear takes longer time to engage. But if the car is already cool down, that kind of problem does not happen, weird right??. Anyway, I already started searching the solenoids.. Will update later..

[Lxi4647]

I forgot to tell that i send my solenoids for inspection by a friend of mine. He also agree that the soleniods is maybe the problem. He gave me a link to understand the function if the solenoids better. -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=24gkmDDV0C8. He said that mayb something inside the solenoids broke or tilt that cause connection with the solenoids body and disturb the current.. Something like that i guess..

[2oodoor]

I forgot to tell that i send my solenoids for inspection by a friend of mine. He also agree that the soleniods is maybe the problem. He gave me a link to understand the function if the solenoids better. -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=24gkmDDV0C8. He said that mayb something inside the solenoids broke or tilt that cause connection with the solenoids body and disturb the current.. Something like that i guess..
This is NOT a 4th gen accord were talking about on this thread wheewwww....

You removed them? !I sure hope no damage the seal because I am not sure where you would find one.
These solenoids on the 3rd gen accord with B20a automatic tranny really are not all that critical, you can just unplug them and see if there is any difference in rpm at highway speed, if not then they are not working and even then it's not a big issue other than you will be about 200-300 rpm higher at highway speeds.
If it is the TV cable binding or not moving freely then that is an issue to be concerned with and has the same symptoms you describe. It also sounds like your fluid needs to be changed, be sure to use honda fluid or either the additive that converts whatever fluid to synthetic blend.

[2oodoor]

Did you move your TV cable when you installed the CAI set up?
I don't see it here, and if you have it binding or tied up to something it will interfere with smooth operation of it.
I like your car too by the way!
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/KUAM21SLIPKNOT/D%20Rebirth%20of%20mY%20Car/PC170390.jpg

[Lxi4647]

This is NOT a 4th gen accord were talking about on this thread wheewwww....

You removed them? !I sure hope no damage the seal because I am not sure where you would find one.
These solenoids on the 3rd gen accord with B20a automatic tranny really are not all that critical, you can just unplug them and see if there is any difference in rpm at highway speed, if not then they are not working and even then it's not a big issue other than you will be about 200-300 rpm higher at highway speeds.
If it is the TV cable binding or not moving freely then that is an issue to be concerned with and has the same symptoms you describe. It also sounds like your fluid needs to be changed, be sure to use honda fluid or either the additive that converts whatever fluid to synthetic blend.

arrrr mann... i removed them already.. i thought those solenoids were the issue.. The TV cable is there but can't see it from that view.. I never change the position of the cable though.. The seal is ok i guess..

ps: Thanx :rockon:

[Lxi4647]

By the way, i had change my ATF twice since the problem started.. nothing change.. still can't shift up to the 4th gear:crying:

[88Accord-DX]

Well, at least you know it is internal problem now. I figured it would be the clutch pack if all else fails. Good OEM book on the breakdown of the tranny & tools needed, should be able to rebuild it in no time.

[Dr_Snooz]

^^^ What he said. If the flush, TV cable, etc. doesn't get it, then you get to rebuild...

:(

[2oodoor]

By the way, i had change my ATF twice since the problem started.. nothing change.. still can't shift up to the 4th gear:crying:
I am assuming this issue came on suddenly and noticable difference in operation has occured, hence is why you are asking about this....
just to clarify this some, what are the rpms at say 40,50,60,70 kph?

Any other modifications or other done just prior to this problem?
Good thing is too that there is a chart in the service manual for this as well as diagrams and flow chart diagnositcs ! It should be the same as 89 A20a3-5for internals, I have to look and see if the B20 is there too in regards to the electronic lock up controls.

[Lxi4647]

Thank you guys... Bad news.. i managed to find the new solenoid, tested by the technician---> good condition.. but after plug it back, the problem was not solved. Me and my friend (the mechanic) were so confused.. then i brought out about the TV cable thing like Roodoo2 said.. Yes, he agreed that we should examine the cable first before jump to the solenoid conclusion (my mistake :uh:)!!! But it was too dark just now that make us decided to postpone our work on Thursday evening since i got to work on shift tomorrow evening. Thank you guys.. I will update later

Roodoo2: The tv cable from the picture is the gold metal near the blue metal intake.. (inside the gold metal pipe of course)

[Oldblueaccord]

It is hooked up to your Throttle body ,TB, so follow it from there to the transmission. Being right hand drive its confusing to look at for us.

You may also want to make sure your shifter is going all the way into D4. It maybe stuck in D3 or inbetween so it will never shift to 4th.


wp

[2oodoor]

Roodoo2: The tv cable from the picture is the gold metal near the blue metal intake.. (inside the gold metal pipe of course)

Ahh, ok I see it .. that one you can adjust up at the top or at the bottom by the tranny lever ( my 87 Lxi is like that anyway)
Yes if that thing is hanging, sticking or not returning, that will produce shifting issues. After it is confirmed to be moving correctly then comes the adjustment procedure.

Also, to clarify further about the solenoids on these... if they do not disenguage or shut off (via TCM control) the transmission will not shift correctly because the TC is locked up. You will feel a very rough downshift and possibly stall out when coming to a stop and it will not want to shift well after 1st and progressively worse thru 2,3,4. When that happens I would recommend disconnecting them.

[Lxi4647]

Just wanna update, until now nothing change.. Even after i did some adjustment with tv cable.. Now, im looking forward to convert to manual.. Hopefully life will be better.. Hehe:cheers:

[Lxi4647]

hello...its been a long time since my last post.. just wanna tell u guys that already change my tranny to manual.. wuhuuuuuuuuuu:wave:

[Dr_Snooz]

That's the real fix for any auto trans problem right there. Nice work!

[AccordB20A]

i couldnt have said it better myself. I take it the manual gearboxes for these are easy to find over there?

[A18A]

looks like that car used to be powered by an a-series :)

[Lxi4647]

i couldnt have said it better myself. I take it the manual gearboxes for these are easy to find over there?

i wouldn't say so easy but yeah if u really want to find one.. the most impressive result is after converting to manual, my car save more fuel n pump more power than the original auto..