'86 Hatch to join the ranks

[SkateK610]

Hi everyone, the name is Kyle, living in the Chicago Suburbs.

I just joined the 3g world in november when I got my 1986 Lxi Hatchback.
Picked it up for $1,000, its a 5-speed FI,and had 1008xx when i got it.

Previous owner said it was in a rear end collision and the hatch was replaced, it was a DX hatch so I didnt know it was a Lxi until I was looking around the fuses inside and saw the Lxi info.

Being in Chicago there is the usual rust, but I think it is a good starting point for something nice.

Main problem right now is the heat, and being winter in chicago, its a big one.

I can let it heat up but once i start driving the needle goes right back down.
replaced the thermostat but still no luck, any help would greatly be appreciated.

Some pics, nothing flashy.
http://tiny.cc/qgvho
http://tiny.cc/tjv9l
Different hatch and bumper, from crash
http://tiny.cc/ttrf8
Some of the typical rust
http://tiny.cc/xvgpk
http://tiny.cc/41vx1
http://tiny.cc/s4st6
Where someone tried to steal the previous owners radio
http://tiny.cc/vs6q5
The dirty
http://tiny.cc/enmj2

[Pico]

Welcome to the forum.
Did you bleed the cooling system, possible you may have air in the cooling system

[SkateK610]

I checked the level and it was pretty high and mostly coolant, so we drained some, added distilled water, and bled it, still no luck.

The radiator does look to be newer as if it was replaced, not sure if the cooling fans work right.
Im worried that its only staying cold because of winter and that in the summer it may just over heat.

[SkateK610]

We may have not bled it all the way though so ill try draining it and bleeding the system

[charliekuney]

Do you have a leak or is the gauge just not working properly?

[SkateK610]

I haven't found any leaks, and the gauge works, its just the heat wont maintain temperature

[MessyHonda]

welcome to the site. on the heater hose in the back engine bay they is a leaver that controls heat...it might be closed off or barely open

[HON-DUH]

welcome

[Dr_Snooz]

Welcome! What is the general condition of your cooling system?

[SkateK610]

I know the heat slider on the dash has some resistance to move

[Pico]

I know the heat slider on the dash has some resistance to move

check the heater control valve on the firewall, the cable or valve sounds like its sticking

[-$MOKIN-]

Does your fan kick on after it heats up ? And also ..Is the heater working when u turn it on inside?
Had a similar problem myself. I thought it was everything besides the gauge ended up being the gauge.
You should turn it on let it run and see if the fan kicks on. When the fan kicks in turn the heat up on the inside see if its blowing hot air . Then watch the gauge . Could be the temp sensor on the thermostat housing. But if the fans kicking in and ur getting heat more than likely its the gauge .
If its the gauge your probably going to have to get a new cluster form the JY .easy to swap out just make sure when u grab one from the JY you get one that's close to the mileage shown and one that's from the same year and car that doesn't have a lot of corrosion on it.
If your still getting heat while the gauge is reading wrong its either the gauge or the sensor. Bleeding the coolant system you need to take off the valve on top of the thermostat housing and keep adding water while its not running and squeezing the coolant lines until its a constant flow out of that valve.

[-$MOKIN-]

PICO I LOVE YOUR CAR.......lol

[SkateK610]

Heat works, when the gauge reads its warmed up. fan kicks in as well. the time I dont get heat is when I start driving, its like the forced air cools the radiator

[SkateK610]

Where is the heater valve/cable on the engine, could I get a pic?

[Pico]

Where is the heater valve/cable on the engine, could I get a pic?

on the firewall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/picopop/htrvalve.jpg

[SkateK610]

Thank you, what manual is that? I have the 86 accord shop manual but haven't seen that.

Here it is when the slider is all the way to cold
http://i54.tinypic.com/2yye44n.jpg

[kentwat]

Manual from technical sticky.
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25137

[SkateK610]

Thanks, on a side note, right now there is a 195F thermostat in there, would I benefit any from having a 180F?

[-$MOKIN-]

thought all day on why its gets cold.....maybe wrong mix in collant.. dude its weird ..pica is the sht waht do u think pico?

[SkateK610]

When we got it we checked the mix and it seemed to be pure coolant, so we took some out and added the distilled water

[-$MOKIN-]

id drain it totaly and then make sure u get a 50 50 mix

[Dr_Snooz]

The thermostat should prevent this from happening, to a point. I'm not sure what the ambient temps are like in Chicago right now, but they are probably pretty low. If the engine wants to run at 180*, but the coolant entering the block from the t-stat is 0*, then it's going to be pretty hard to keep the engine at 180*. When it's really cold out, the engine will probably run a little cooler than normal. Now if the engine is cooling off completely, then you have a problem. My hypothesis is that there is a problem with the thermostat. Either the t-stat you have is broken or there is some damage allowing water to flow around it. Maybe the t-stat gasket is missing or it's the wrong size or something. If you're certain that everything is working as it should, then you could always try blocking off a portion of the radiator like the big rigs do.

[SkateK610]

Well when I first got the car I replaced the thermostat and gasket, but im pretty sure its a 195F, the gasket was just a flat felt type one, the new thermostat and gasket it got is the rubber type that slips around it, think there is any difference in function?

[Dr_Snooz]

The rubber gasket is the right one. It makes me wonder why the previous owner used the wrong gasket. Why did you change the t-stat? Was something going on?

[Demon1024]

Your fan doesn't run all the time does it?
like before the car starts and the key is in run?
If not your thermo is most likely the problem still,
get the higher temp one. Hopefully someone will also say it's not gonna hurt it. I recently experienced an instant new thermo failure myself.

Same thing car will drop right back down heat on temp gauge. Most commonly from a stop. Or when i stomp on the gas, or at constant higher rpm's while moving

[SkateK610]

@Dr_Snooz
I changed it because the needle would not move, and i didnt get heat ever

@Demon1024
Fan only kicks in when the engine is at operating temp

[-$MOKIN-]

If the fan kicks on when the car gets to temp then the thermostat is doing its job.
IM still plugged on why the damn thing runs cold . u need to let it run watch the fan kick on and off a couple times then drive it until it shows it cold then pull over and feel the lines to see if there hot. that's what i would do. is your heat on the inside working ever or what i thought u said it would work then when i drove it wouldn't . i dunno dude cant get down to the bottom of this for ya . did u make sure u had the right 50/50 coolant mix in there?
if ur fan is kicking on and off then its working right your just getting the wrong readings . Thats what u need to worry about and if the heat inside the car doesn't work it wouldn't be because your thermostat is wrong its something else . The fan coming on and off is good.

[SkateK610]

Yes the heat will work, although not blazing hot when all the way warmed up

[SkateK610]

Ok so here are my results
Temp outside isnt bad, at 27
I let the car warm up,here it is at operating temp
http://i55.tinypic.com/vz8mwx.jpg
I checked the hoses going to the heater valve, one was very hot, the other was just hot, as well as the radiator hose and cap
After about 10min of driving the needle was back to the bottom, it stays just above the last white line. Hoses were warmish, and the radiator cap was cold

[Pico]

sounds like your radiator may be clogged, when you touch the sides of the radiator they should be hot on the top side and bottom side.
If not then it may be partially clogged

[SkateK610]

Alright, so today I put in the new thermostat, with correct rubber gasket.
Now I am not sure if it made any difference as I also bled the system, but this time we waited as there was a sudden rush of coolant and then bubbles, so after a few minutes all(or the majority) of the air was out.

I just got home from work, I warmed the car up a little bit, drove it home(5min)
and not only did the needle not drop, but in fact, rose a bit!:D

Ill be sure to post if my heating problem is fixed after I warm it up completely and do some driving tonight.

Thank you everyone for the advice, tips, support, and welcome. Lets hope this problem is solved.

-Kyle

[-$MOKIN-]

word sweet. just make sure after you drive it. that the gauge is workin right. The heat is blowing hot air. and ur fan is kickin on and off and on make sure it comes on and off a couple times. GLAD it WORKED BRO.. LOVE THE MILAGE . what else is wrong with it? i seen your check engine light is on?

[SkateK610]

Thanks,
That would be the parking brake light, next think im doing is probably changing the valve cover gasket, it looks to have some oil or something that seeped out in time, then get the muffler fixed so it doesn't rattle as much. Then new tires.

[-$MOKIN-]

When u change the valve cover gasket u have to torque it to specs or it will re leak not for sure the weight on it but pico might know what you need to torque it too. ya should drive it to the drive in car wash then leave it running and pressure wash the motor area.

[Dr_Snooz]

7 ft-lbs.

[SkateK610]

Just when I thought id have some time to breath, PGMFI come on,
its randomly reoccurring, usually after about 10-20 min of driving, for now I just restart the car at a red light. next time it happens ill check the error code lights

[Dr_Snooz]

Check it now. The ECU will retain the code.

[SkateK610]

12 flashes

12 LED FLASH(s) 85-98 Accord
EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor

[Dr_Snooz]

The EGR troubleshooting sequence begins on p. 12-79 of this manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php). Proceed through it and let us know what you learn.

[ecogabriel]

When u change the valve cover gasket u have to torque it to specs or it will re leak not for sure the weight on it but pico might know what you need to torque it too. ya should drive it to the drive in car wash then leave it running and pressure wash the motor area.

Ditto for the pressure washing -you may pick up on other leak sources.
Try to replace the valve cover grommets when doing the gasket; they are most likely hardened after 20+ years under the hood.


Just when I thought id have some time to breath, PGMFI come on,
its randomly reoccurring, usually after about 10-20 min of driving, for now I just restart the car at a red light. next time it happens ill check the error code lights


The EGR troubleshooting sequence begins on p. 12-79 of this manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php). Proceed through it and let us know what you learn.

The manual will explain how the system works; you need to understand it BEFORE getting to work on the car. Unfortunately, 86-87 LX-i have some slight differences in how the EGR system is operated and make the system a little more difficult to understand.

Note: you'll make sense of what I am writing once you read the manual and opened the dreadful "black box")
1) no hose #17 for 88-89s, hose #17 from intake pipe to the black box
2) EGR solenoid is different
Vacuum canister (a white-yellow cylindric thing) has 2 hoses attached (88-89) v. 3 hoses (86-87). You'll see it attached to a white and green dish-shaped thing (vacuum modulator)

Please check if your hose #17 is attached to the intake pipe running from the air filter box to the throttle body. If it is hanging without being attached, I would suspect that dirt have partially clogged the EGR vacuum canister (the whitish cylinder) or the vacuum modulator making the system to work more slowly and the ECU picks that up. This happened to me a few months ago and cleaning the canister solved the problem

Read the manual as suggested especially if you have to pass smog you need to understand how the system works.

[SkateK610]

Could this be caused due to lack of catalytic converter?

[poison2003]

if your interested i have the 86 technical service manual
pm me

[ecogabriel]

Could this be caused due to lack of catalytic converter?

NO. Our cars do not have a way to check how the catalytic converter works.

Code 12 refers to the EGR system; the ECU checks opening of the EGR valve (the sensor w/the 3 wires on top of it) v. internal pre-set tables and triggers a code when there is a discrepancy between both.

Because different things with the system may trigger the code you need to read the service manual. If you understand how it works from the 89 manual you'll be fine.

The only thing you may not find is a way to test the EGR sensor without using the special tools in the service manual. I figured out a way to test it using a multimeter and a vacuum pump in case the problem is in there -there must be a posting somewhere in this site.

Some online stuff you might want to read to get an idea of EGR systems in general

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/dec97/egr.htm
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2001/techtips.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/egr.htm

[Dr_Snooz]

The manual will explain how the system works; you need to understand it BEFORE getting to work on the car. Unfortunately, 86-87 LX-i have some slight differences in how the EGR system is operated and make the system a little more difficult to understand.

Note: you'll make sense of what I am writing once you read the manual and opened the dreadful "black box")
1) no hose #17 for 88-89s, hose #17 from intake pipe to the black box
2) EGR solenoid is different
Vacuum canister (a white-yellow cylindric thing) has 2 hoses attached (88-89) v. 3 hoses (86-87). You'll see it attached to a white and green dish-shaped thing (vacuum modulator)

Please check if your hose #17 is attached to the intake pipe running from the air filter box to the throttle body. If it is hanging without being attached, I would suspect that dirt have partially clogged the EGR vacuum canister (the whitish cylinder) or the vacuum modulator making the system to work more slowly and the ECU picks that up. This happened to me a few months ago and cleaning the canister solved the problem

Read the manual as suggested especially if you have to pass smog you need to understand how the system works.

Right, I did forget about the differences between '86/87 and '88/89. Thanks for the reminder.

[ecogabriel]

Right, I did forget about the differences between '86/87 and '88/89. Thanks for the reminder.

The 89 manual you provided still is the best source for understanding the system; once you get how it works from there you may figure out how the 86-87 works (it is a little more twisted than the 88-89)

I would like to write some kind of addendum about the EGR system for the 86-87 EFI Accords including testing the EGR position sensor I came up with.

Another thing is whether the 4G EGR valves would work on our cars, which would give us an expanded source of used valves (all 4g are EFI). The connector is different from the 3g but the wiring is the same (3 wires). They even test the same (sensor resistance)

I hope next time my ratchet won't break :burn: so I can get one of those to install in my car and see whether it works. That would be a killing for those who have to deal with emissions testing.

[SkateK610]

So if emissions are not a big concern, does this effect the cars performance much?

I also opened up the black box and it seems like everything is as it should be, it looks like the day it was put in the car.

[Dr_Snooz]

It's not a big deal. EGR helps to reduce pinging, but some guys get rid of it entirely. The stuff inside the black box can look fine, but still fail. The EGR troubleshooting section helps you find what is failing and replace it.

[SkateK610]

Oh ok, thanks for the help, patience, & wealth of knowledge you guys are great.

Ill read up on it, but in the meantime ill find some other symptoms that may need fixing

I know the tachometer seems unresponsive, in first ill give it gas revs will rise to a point and then stay for a second then drop, ive never had a stick before so im not sure how normal operation would feel. if it might be something ill get more details

[gp02a0083]

when my 87 efi threw a code 12 , i used a vac tester to make sure the diaphragm was holding some vac, that was ok, next thing i checked was a sensor in the black box thats hooked up to a vac line for the egr, clean the filter on the thing and its worked fine ever since

[ecogabriel]

So if emissions are not a big concern, does this effect the cars performance much?

I also opened up the black box and it seems like everything is as it should be, it looks like the day it was put in the car.

My black box looked exactly the same as yours, but my A/C idle booster was not working (not a big deal anyway). It turned out one of the small solenoids inside the box was dead (there are two similar ones, the other is for the distributor advance -extra advance it seems). I harvested a couple good ones from the junkyard (one for spare) and got it fixed.


It's not a big deal. EGR helps to reduce pinging, but some guys get rid of it entirely. The stuff inside the black box can look fine, but still fail. The EGR troubleshooting section helps you find what is failing and replace it.

x2. No need to fix it -other than pinging- unless you have to do smog/emissions.

[SkateK610]

Some more news, last night driving home the dash lights went out, where to start...

[Pico]

Some more news, last night driving home the dash lights went out, where to start...

start by replacing the dimmer switch on the dash.
Is it only the dash lights? headlights and turnsignals come on?

[SkateK610]

Headlights and turn signals work, dash lights license plate light and the running lights are out. I check the interior fuse box # 15 and 14 arnt blown, but there is some rigged up system going into #14, its a red wire from a harness split into a wire with a metal tab stuck into the #14 with the fuse also in there

[SkateK610]

Heres that wire
http://img138.imageshack.us/i/021111125700.jpg/