Changing engine mounts: a few remaining questions

[anonsixteen]

Hello,

I'm fairly new to this forum though I've spent a lot of time over the past month or so reading up on all the posts I could find related to engine mounts.

A few months back I bought an '89 LX-i with 85k [legit] miles on it. Sadly the car is an automatic, but it's in near perfect condition and I couldn't resit the chance to relive the '86 LX I loved and which died an unfortunate, early death. I'm not in to racing these cars or really even doing anything high-performance; I just like them stock (more or less).

Judging by the number of posts on the topic, it'll probably come as no surprise that I'm having motor mount issues (rough idle, worse with headlights on, subsides when RPM is increased to around 900, disapears in neutral, etc).

After reading everyones posts (thank you), I'm getting more comfortable with doing the swap. I plan to replace the rear, front, and side mounts as well as the two bushings on the strut bar. Against all odds I've located OEM parts for everything except the rear mount. For that mount I went with an after-market mount from Napa.

My question is really one of technique. I really need to understand just a little better how to swap these out safely (without hurting myself or the car). Here's what I'm thinking so far (based on what Ive read here and in the Haynes manual for this car):

1. Park car somewhere flat and put on the emergency brake.
2. Slide floor jack under car and position jack head roughly under the oil pan
3. Slide a block of wood between the jack head and the oil pan (using as large a piece as possible given the proximity of the crossmember bar and exhaust down pipe).
4. Carefully raise the jack until the wood, jack head, and oil pan are just held in place
5. Remove the top bolt (one per mount) on the front and rear mounts; loosen bolts on strut bar; loosen long through bolt on side engine mount
6. Raise the jack until the engine clears the bolt stud on the front and rear mounts
7. Remove the rear mount and install the new rear mount; repeat for front mount
8. Remove all bolts from side mount and replace mount
9. Lower jack
10. Remove both bolts from strut bar and replace bushings
11. Re-torque all bolts per spec in order described in Honda manual

A lot of these are right out of the Haynes manual but I have some questions (at last, sorry):

A. The actual size of the oil pan area I can position the jack under is small (roughly 8x5"). The oil pan isn't perfectly flat in that area and it's right next to the drain plug. I have to ask if this one section is really strong enough to shoulder the weight of the engine. I guess I'm not interested in loosing a finger because the oil pan collapsed in the middle of a swap.

B. The Haynes manual says I should put the car on jack stands but I don't have these and I'm wondering if that's even necessary since I won't be under the car or the engine at any time during this job. If attempting this without using jack stands for the car is stupid, please say so. Like I said I'd rather not risk an accident and I'm sure I can borrow some if needed. Part of me wonders if the Haynes recommendation assumes the replacement of the lower mount which I'm skipping (for now).

B is probably a dead give away that I'm learning as I go here. I'm not new to working on smaller parts of these cars, but a motor mount swap is a bigger job than usual for me. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Demon1024]

Oil pans are tough. I bet even yours has one good scratch on it from bottoming on something at some point. I've done it from the tranny before to do the passenger side ones.
Just make sure you remove all tension (up and down) on each mount seperatly each time you swap in a new mount.
Idle?
Check / Beef Up you grounds <---- do it. I've had some that looked mostly brand new that were no longer doing the job anymore.

[88lxi-shortram]

If attempting this without using jack stands for the car is stupid, please say so.

attempting this without using jack stands for the car is stupid.. always put stands under your car. ALWAYS you will slide under there a few times for dropped bolts or something. pick some up at autozone or advance.. or really anywhere they sell them. better to spend 20 bucks on stands then to leave your family with thousands of dollars of funeral bills and grief... safety first plz.

[Dr_Snooz]

Hello,

I'm fairly new to this forum though I've spent a lot of time over the past month or so reading up on all the posts I could find related to engine mounts.

A few months back I bought an '89 LX-i with 85k [legit] miles on it. Sadly the car is an automatic, but it's in near perfect condition and I couldn't resit the chance to relive the '86 LX I loved and which died an unfortunate, early death. I'm not in to racing these cars or really even doing anything high-performance; I just like them stock (more or less).

Judging by the number of posts on the topic, it'll probably come as no surprise that I'm having motor mount issues (rough idle, worse with headlights on, subsides when RPM is increased to around 900, disapears in neutral, etc).

After reading everyones posts (thank you), I'm getting more comfortable with doing the swap. I plan to replace the rear, front, and side mounts as well as the two bushings on the strut bar. Against all odds I've located OEM parts for everything except the rear mount. For that mount I went with an after-market mount from Napa.

My question is really one of technique. I really need to understand just a little better how to swap these out safely (without hurting myself or the car). Here's what I'm thinking so far (based on what Ive read here and in the Haynes manual for this car):

1. Park car somewhere flat and put on the emergency brake.
2. Slide floor jack under car and position jack head roughly under the oil pan
3. Slide a block of wood between the jack head and the oil pan (using as large a piece as possible given the proximity of the crossmember bar and exhaust down pipe).
4. Carefully raise the jack until the wood, jack head, and oil pan are just held in place
5. Remove the top bolt (one per mount) on the front and rear mounts; loosen bolts on strut bar; loosen long through bolt on side engine mount
6. Raise the jack until the engine clears the bolt stud on the front and rear mounts
7. Remove the rear mount and install the new rear mount; repeat for front mount
8. Remove all bolts from side mount and replace mount
9. Lower jack
10. Remove both bolts from strut bar and replace bushings
11. Re-torque all bolts per spec in order described in Honda manual

A lot of these are right out of the Haynes manual but I have some questions (at last, sorry):

A. The actual size of the oil pan area I can position the jack under is small (roughly 8x5"). The oil pan isn't perfectly flat in that area and it's right next to the drain plug. I have to ask if this one section is really strong enough to shoulder the weight of the engine. I guess I'm not interested in loosing a finger because the oil pan collapsed in the middle of a swap.

B. The Haynes manual says I should put the car on jack stands but I don't have these and I'm wondering if that's even necessary since I won't be under the car or the engine at any time during this job. If attempting this without using jack stands for the car is stupid, please say so. Like I said I'd rather not risk an accident and I'm sure I can borrow some if needed. Part of me wonders if the Haynes recommendation assumes the replacement of the lower mount which I'm skipping (for now).

B is probably a dead give away that I'm learning as I go here. I'm not new to working on smaller parts of these cars, but a motor mount swap is a bigger job than usual for me. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Wow! You research your repairs, read the manual, think of all the things you might need, gather your tools, plan your strategy and ask intelligent questions BEFORE starting! You sir, are a mechanic after my own heart.

The oil pan is more than equal to what you will be asking of it. The jackstands are not needed, but you may want to use them anyway. I am 6' and find that the engine is a long way down from where I stand. I put the car on jackstands any time I will be working in the engine bay, just because I don't have to bend over as far. Using them will keep you from being exhausted and sore by day's end. Be prepared to move the jack around a lot. You'll have to raise, lower, angle and rotate the engine to get the bolt holes to line up. It will be a hassle the first few times until you get the hang of it.

Other than that, it looks like you are more than ready to take this project on. Let us know how it goes.

[onebad4D]

I replaced all of the engine mounts except the front one in 2004 due to idle vibration issues. It didn't lessen the vibrations transmitted to the steering wheel by much. After I replaced the spark plug wires and sprayed throttle body cleaner into the throttle body idle vibrations subsided substantially. I believe, in my case, the mounts became damaged from years of running on less-than-stellar spark plug wires. Some minor idle vibration subsists to this day with the A/C running and in Reverse, albeit only about 1/3 - 1/4 the amplitude of the pre-2004 levels. It is worth noting that the Accord sales brochure boasts that "...idle vibration have been reduced" for the 1988 model year...Reduced, not eliminated. If I still have my personal notations augmenting the factory service manual's engine mount replacement instructions I may post them.

[anonsixteen]

@Demon1024, thanks for the tip about the grounds. I'll check them out while I'm under there. I remember the frayed ground on my '86. Looked like it would break if a bird landed on it.

@88lxi-shortram, will do. Already a BMW/Benz tech? Congrats.

@Dr_Snooz, thanks man. I'm actually about your height and what you said makes sense. My F-250 has the opposite problem...practically need a front loader to reach inside it. Looking forward to the raise, lower, angle and rotate part. Ugh.

@onebad4D, that's good to know. I'm going to run with the swap (already bought all the parts), but if the vibration is still there afterward, I'll start looking elsewhere. I know the plug wires are new (though the plugs themselves don't look new). Do you have those sales brochures in PDF/digital format? Those would be fun to look at.

It looks like this project isn't going to happen until next weekend (someone forgot about mothers day). I'll post my results. Thanks for all the input!

[Pnem3]

It is worth noting that the Accord sales brochure boasts that "...idle vibration have been reduced" for the 1988 model year...Reduced, not eliminated. If I still have my personal notations augmenting the factory service manual's engine mount replacement instructions I may post them.

My 87 vibrates like crazy. Would I benefit from going to 88 or 89 parts even though they would be 20 some years old at this point? Are the new OEM parts expensive? Are there parts from other cars or years that I could use? I see Camry mounts in the junkyard that are 15 years old and still look great and feel soft whereas I hear our mounts turn hard. This is something that has bugged me for a while but I just haven't done anything about it yet. It can't be good for my transmission shifting into neutral at stoplights to keep from rattling apart.

[anonsixteen]

Went ahead and started this morning. I got one of the mounts replaced (side mount), but had to stop there. Ran into a few problems, some minor and one major. The minor problems, which I'll just post for anyone else attempting this, were equipment related. First, the bolts on the torque strut bar are bigger than my [current] largest socket. Easy to fix, but annoying. Second, the larger bolts require a greater torque than my torque wrench can provide (max 30 N-m). Both of these I can correct for next time, but the remaining problem seems like a showstopper.

The biggest problem I had was no matter how high I jacked the engine via the oil pan, the engine didn't lift up at all on the transmission side. This made it impossible to remove the existing front and rear mounts. It seems to me, just based on a visual evaluation of what was happening, that the oil pan isn't close enough to the overall center of gravity of the engine and transmission to lift the engine up in at least a nearly vertical line. I was leery of trying to lift the engine via the [automatic] transmission, but I did try it gently to see if that would have made a difference and it didn't seem to budge (the side mount was removed when I tried this as were the two top bolts on the front and rear engine mounts and one of the torque strut bolts). It's possible that with two floor jacks I could get further, but I didn't want to continue until I knew whether it was safe to lift the engine even in part by the transmission.

Is it possible the oil pan method only works for the 5-speed model?

I'll throw in one last detail for anyone else trying this with an automatic transmission and air conditioning: allow extra time to clear space to get the front mount out. Coolant, ATF, exhaust gas sensors, and AC lines all need to be moved out of the way. Although I didn't get that far, it looked to me like careful pushing and prodding would be all that was necessary. I think I read about someone else having similar comments; just reiterating.

[lostforawhile]

I know the front engine mount for the 89 costs a lot more and the height is different, they seem to be making all the front mounts to that height now, it required a different bracket, maby thats the reason for the height difference, the mount was changed internally?

[ecogabriel]

I know the front engine mount for the 89 costs a lot more and the height is different, they seem to be making all the front mounts to that height now, it required a different bracket, maby thats the reason for the height difference, the mount was changed internally?

I've seen the different brackets in the JY for the mount at the front of the engine bay (behind the radiator). 88-89s have an aluminum bracket whereas older ones have a stamped metal bracket. I believe the mount in the newer 3Gs are filled with fluid. Is that the mount you are referring to, lost?

I second the importance of keeping the engine not loading on the mounts when adjusting them; I've had all sorts of vibration issues that have gone away just recently when re-adjusting them after a transmission removal.

It probably helped me that, in addition to having no transmission in the car the axles were not installed. Positioning the engine right was far easier.

[lostforawhile]

I've seen the different brackets in the JY for the mount at the front of the engine bay (behind the radiator). 88-89s have an aluminum bracket whereas older ones have a stamped metal bracket. I believe the mount in the newer 3Gs are filled with fluid. Is that the mount you are referring to, lost?

I second the importance of keeping the engine not loading on the mounts when adjusting them; I've had all sorts of vibration issues that have gone away just recently when re-adjusting them after a transmission removal.

It probably helped me that, in addition to having no transmission in the car the axles were not installed. Positioning the engine right was far easier.
yea the fluid filled mount, they are making all the 86-87 mounts too tall now, requiring the later mount bracket, i have a picture up somewhere, the one i got was over an inch too tall for the 86

[ecogabriel]

yea the fluid filled mount, they are making all the 86-87 mounts too tall now, requiring the later mount bracket, i have a picture up somewhere, the one i got was over an inch too tall for the 86

That explains why I NEVER could make that mount to sit right -engine way TOO high!!! for the supplied bracket. I I should have a photo of old v. new mount somewhere if my wife did not delete it from the camera :(

It crossed my mind to get a bracket from 88-89 just to see but I never did. And now that it seems I got the mounts to mount right I won't touch it again...

Thanks!

[lostforawhile]

That explains why I NEVER could make that mount to sit right -engine way TOO high!!! for the supplied bracket. I I should have a photo of old v. new mount somewhere if my wife did not delete it from the camera :(

It crossed my mind to get a bracket from 88-89 just to see but I never did. And now that it seems I got the mounts to mount right I won't touch it again...

Thanks!

if it's the tall mount, you need the later bracket, and you won't have an issue getting the mounts all set right, I Assume it would be hard to make the engine sit right when it's at an angle due to the front mount being an inch too tall, once I made my front mount to the proper height, the engine sat down right where it was supposed to be, the wrong mounts are what cause the passenger side of the engine to lean at an angle.

[lostforawhile]

this is my mount, which is at the correct height for the 86, vs the mount sold everywhere for it, obviously you can adjust all day and the engine will never sit right, with whats sold for it. I know cygnus is also making a bracket for a common urethane mount to fit in there
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/aug262009download310.jpg

[TotaledTL]

...the wrong mounts are what cause the passenger side of the engine to lean at an angle.

Actually it's the driver's side right? Mine tilts downward toward the driver's side after I had them replaced.

[ecogabriel]

The mount on the left side is the aftermarket one; the one on the right is the OE that came in my 86 LXi. I removed the dust cap from the OE.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9407/dscn0513h.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/218/dscn0513h.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I could install it but the engine would sit higher and the mount on the timing belt side would not be at a right angle.

[Dr_Snooz]

The mount on the left side is the aftermarket one; the one on the right is the OE that came in my 86 LXi. I removed the dust cap from the OE.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9407/dscn0513h.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/218/dscn0513h.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I could install it but the engine would sit higher and the mount on the timing belt side would not be at a right angle.

It kinda looks like the old mount has collapsed.

@anonsixteen - Yeah, just get 'er done. Jack from the trans or whatever. Use a block of wood to provide some cushion. It won't break. Remember that the car is designed to hit the occasional pothole at speed without breaking. It's designed to keep the engine from being flung out when you drop the clutch a 4k rpm. Think about how hard you would have to hit another car or a tree to get the case on the trans to break and that's how much force it can take from your jacking. Have a crow bar handy and a hammer. The mounts will try to bind and lift the car, so use the crow bar, hammers, whatever you need, to break them loose. They won't come without a fight. I think what I do with mine is lift the jack until there is tension, then give the threaded post on the mount a good firm smack with the hammer (use a socket extension if it's too far down) and they pop out. Failing that, you can remove the bracket from the engine and the mount from the frame and put the whole mess on your work table to get it apart. You shouldn't need to do that though.

[lostforawhile]

It kinda looks like the old mount has collapsed.

@anonsixteen - Yeah, just get 'er done. Jack from the trans or whatever. Use a block of wood to provide some cushion. It won't break. Remember that the car is designed to hit the occasional pothole at speed without breaking. It's designed to keep the engine from being flung out when you drop the clutch a 4k rpm. Think about how hard you would have to hit another car or a tree to get the case on the trans to break and that's how much force it can take from your jacking. Have a crow bar handy and a hammer. The mounts will try to bind and lift the car, so use the crow bar, hammers, whatever you need, to break them loose. They won't come without a fight. I think what I do with mine is lift the jack until there is tension, then give the threaded post on the mount a good firm smack with the hammer (use a socket extension if it's too far down) and they pop out. Failing that, you can remove the bracket from the engine and the mount from the frame and put the whole mess on your work table to get it apart. You shouldn't need to do that though.

there are two different height mounts, the original mount is the shorter one, they changed the engine bracket to fit the tall mounts, whats probably happened is the law of supply and demand, not many people buying these mounts, so they condensed the parts catalog to one mount, it doesn't matter if it's right, the mega parts manufacturers don't care, I know advance carries two different mounts , two different part numbers, but they are both the same part. i ordered both mounts from seven different parts store, i had some favors, so i got to order and compare them, and they are all the same, the only solution is LXI bracket

[TotaledTL]

....the only solution is LXI bracket

What about the OEM mount? N/A?

[lostforawhile]

What about the OEM mount? N/A?

you might be able to get an OEM one, if you get the cast bracket from an LXI it just bolts in place and this fixes the problem

[ecogabriel]

you might be able to get an OEM one, if you get the cast bracket from an LXI it just bolts in place and this fixes the problem

I may go to the jy this weekend; if so I'll grab one of the cast brackets from an 88-89 LX-i (I believe they are aluminum) just in case...

[TotaledTL]

you might be able to get an OEM one, if you get the cast bracket from an LXI it just bolts in place and this fixes the problem

Wouldn't it be easier to just do that instead of fooling around trying to find a different bracket to make something else fit? Or aren't they (OEM mts.) available?

[lostforawhile]

Wouldn't it be easier to just do that instead of fooling around trying to find a different bracket to make something else fit? Or aren't they (OEM mts.) available?

well cygnus is working on brackets that take an energy suspension bushing, that will fix both problems at once, if you take the lxi bracket it will bolt right up, and should fix the problem

[Dr_Snooz]

Wouldn't it be easier to just do that instead of fooling around trying to find a different bracket to make something else fit? Or aren't they (OEM mts.) available?

The parts for our cars are getting harder and harder to find. Honda keeps phasing our stuff out. Add to that the fact that the dealer usually charges at least 4x what Napa charges (no lie) for the same part and you won't find many 3geezers running to the "stealer" to buy parts.

[TotaledTL]

The parts for our cars are getting harder and harder to find. Honda keeps phasing our stuff out. Add to that the fact that the dealer usually charges at least 4x what Napa charges (no lie) for the same part and you won't find many 3geezers running to the "stealer" to buy parts.

I understand that- but it seems that in this case if you can get the correct part that actually fits properly it would be worth it to avoid the hasle, rather than having to scrounge for a bracket. Now it it's just plain unavailabe- of course that's an entirely different story & you do what you have to do. Just my 2 cents worth.

Anybody ever tried bernardiparts.com? It's about $78 on there; don't know if they can get it. Napa- $47.

[lostforawhile]

I understand that- but it seems that in this case if you can get the correct part that actually fits properly it would be worth it to avoid the hasle, rather than having to scrounge for a bracket. Now it it's just plain unavailabe- of course that's an entirely different story & you do what you have to do. Just my 2 cents worth.
if you can find the lxi bracket, then when you need a mount in the future, you will be able to find one that it fits

[TotaledTL]

if you can find the lxi bracket, then when you need a mount in the future, you will be able to find one that it fits

That's a good point to keep in mind.

[TotaledTL]

I finally scavenged one off a junker & installed it. Damn ~!%* thing still lists to the driver side. :banghead: Screw it...