yay! Finally broke something racing!!!

[turabaka]

Seems like the Accord finally gave out on me. Was at a time attack event in Twin Falls ID on Sunday. Halfway through my second heat the motor lost all power and dumped the coolant out of it. Amazingly enough it didn't blow the head gasket. Just blew the rad cap and dumped it out through that. In the process it developed a pretty bad knock, and I'm pretty sure it spun either a crank bearing or a rod bearing. There's no oil or antifreeze on any of the plugs, so I think the rings and headgasket are still good. The car is still stuck in Twin Falls until I can get the time to haul it back to Boise, so until then it's all speculation.

My question is this. Would it be possible to change the rod bearings and main bearings without removing the engine from the car? I know it'll be a bigger pain in the ass, but I really don't want to remove the motor again and try to track down a buddy with an engine stand.


And for those curious here's pics and a vid from the event.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5753026349_d677720399.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753026349/)
Honda Accord (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753026349/) by gregory_gdp (http://www.flickr.com/people/gregory_gdp/), on Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/5753571522_67807558e0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753571522/)
Honda Accord (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753571522/) by gregory_gdp (http://www.flickr.com/people/gregory_gdp/), on Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3514/5753567704_8364502f80.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753567704/)
Honda Accord (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/5753567704/) by gregory_gdp (http://www.flickr.com/people/gregory_gdp/), on Flickr

link to all pics from the event. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregory_gdp/sets/72157626792313068/

and the link to the vid
http://youtu.be/HrTak765zIo

[lostforawhile]

you need to pull the engine, and it would seem really difficult to remove the car from the engine?:dunno:

[2oodoor]

Yes you can replace crank/rod bearings in frame, be smart about it though.
Are you sure it is a bottom end knock, if is sounds anything at all like preignition it could be the beginning of a blown head /gasket.

Have fun, nice pics...

[turabaka]

you need to pull the engine, and it would seem really difficult to remove the car from the engine?:dunno:

lol edited. I was really tired when I made that post.

And yeah Roodoo it doesn't sound like an ignition knock, more like something in the bottom end is broken. I don't think it's a broken rod though because the motor still feels like it's running on all four cylinders, and it doesn't miss. Just doesn't have any power and makes a loud clackety noise.

[AZmike]

I replaced a spun center main bearing with the block still in the car. It can be done without too much difficulty. I'm not sure if it would have been less work to pull the engine and transmission out first or just pull the transmission like I did.

The risk to just removing the crank is that you find a problem with the block and you have to either reattach the transmission to use the factory lift points or figure out a safe way to hoist out just the engine.

[Oldblueaccord]

lol edited. I was really tired when I made that post.

And yeah Roodoo it doesn't sound like an ignition knock, more like something in the bottom end is broken. I don't think it's a broken rod though because the motor still feels like it's running on all four cylinders, and it doesn't miss. Just doesn't have any power and makes a loud clackety noise.


For rod bearings you can pull one spark plug wire at a time until the knock goes away. Pull that plug to make sure with no compression and no fire it wont load the bearing as bad. Once you have it isolated it make it easier.

Just to ask have you ever seen you oil pressure go down on hard corners? I have tried watching my oil pressure gauge but I can never catch it even fluttering. I have a cheap electrical gauge so maybe it doesn't move fast enough. Just curious.


wp

[MessyHonda]

I guess the A20s give up now days. everybody is doing b swaps

[mykwikcoupe]

I had a burnt valve on #4 cylinder that sounded exactly like a rod knock. When I yanked the head you could put a pen through the side of the exhaust valve. Good luck either way

[turabaka]

I had a burnt valve on #4 cylinder that sounded exactly like a rod knock. When I yanked the head you could put a pen through the side of the exhaust valve. Good luck either way

good to know. I'll double check when I get it home.

[razordave123]

I'm having similar issues. blew a heater hose, drove it home about 150 miles and on the last two miles or so I stopped at a light and the dummy light for oil came on. I changed the oil and the knock/tap was gone at first, I drove up the big ass hill down the road and the knock sounds like a fulll blown rod knock. Did you ever happen to figure out what it was? I'm really itching to tear it apart and figure out whats going on, but payday is wed, so I should probably wait until I have enough funds to buy rod and main bearings and oil pump if I'm in there, probably a new oil pan too. would a bad valve cause bad oil pressure?

[turabaka]

Wow. I completely forgot that I never posted the answer on this thread. Sorry bout that.

It turns out that I did indeed disintegrate a rod bearing. There was nothing left of it, but metal shavings in the bottom of the oil pan. The number 3 piston slammed into the head a few times as a result of this, and basically turned the block into garbage.

I ended up getting a shortblock from the junkyard that was in good condition, and replacing all of the gaskets in it. Sending the head off to the machine shop to have a valve job done with my Bisimoto springs, and getting it decked 1mm. To keep this from happening again I decided to put a big ass oil cooler on it. Along with added cooling the system capacity is roughly 1.5 gallons now. Everything is running awesome now.

Next thing is to replace the radiator with a 2 core aluminum rad from an integra, and to throw away these shitty pacesetters. Probably gonna go with the OBX headers since it's the only other option. I know I'll have to fix the ports on them, but it's gotta be better than these pieces of crap.


Oh yeah, and pics just because I can. Please excuse the cooler mounting ties. They're temporary until I replace the radiator. I intend to build an actual bracket for the cooler to sit in.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/turabaka/DSC_0024.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/turabaka/DSC_0027.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/turabaka/DSC_0022.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/turabaka/DSC_0026.jpg

and an interior shot of my gauges. switch on left is for the fuel pump cutoff, and the switch on the right is for the rad fan. I have it wired so the stock switch still works as well.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/turabaka/DSC_0029.jpg

[lostforawhile]

what oil thermostat are you running, and what size oil lines? your thermostat looks familiar

[Christofur]

Next thing is to replace the radiator with a 2 core aluminum rad from an integra, and to throw away these shitty pacesetters. Probably gonna go with the OBX headers since it's the only other option. I know I'll have to fix the ports on them, but it's gotta be better than these pieces of crap.




can i has that piece of crap header?!

[lostforawhile]

turbaka is this the same thermostat you are running? also are you getting any kind of pressure drop with -8 lines, which looks like what you are running. I was debating on running -10 lines from the cooler to the thermostat, as this is the longest run. To compensate for line restriction.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd158/lostforawhile/S4021289.jpg

[turabaka]

That is exactly the thermostat I'm running Lost. I'm pretty sure I got the recommendation from you actually. I'm only running -8 lines between the thermostat and the cooler. The lines from the back of the block, and between the filter and thermostat are actually -10. Was gonna do -8 for all of it, but the kit I bought came with -10 lines instead of what was actually listed. So far haven't had any problems with pressure. Stays above 35 psi all the time, and is above 60 psi when I'm on it.

Christofur. They have a crack on the weld for the EGR tube. I'd take the time to weld it up, but I just don't have the time to fix them when I plan on getting rid of them. If you really want them I'd be willing to sell them to you. I could probably even weld up the cracked tube assuming I find some time.

[razordave123]

wow, I'm in love. my car isn't anywhere near how clean yours is, the next one will be though, even if I have to buy a rotisserie and redo the whole underside myself.

[turabaka]

wow, I'm in love. my car isn't anywhere near how clean yours is, the next one will be though, even if I have to buy a rotisserie and redo the whole underside myself.

heh. thanks man. It's getting there slowly but surely. I've been trying to clean everything up slowly. It's really more of a race car than a street car at this point, so looks kinda come as an afterthought sadly. Hopefully I'll get it all sorted out one of these days, and get it as perfect as I'd like it to be.

[Christofur]

Christofur. They have a crack on the weld for the EGR tube. I'd take the time to weld it up, but I just don't have the time to fix them when I plan on getting rid of them. If you really want them I'd be willing to sell them to you. I could probably even weld up the cracked tube assuming I find some time.

i can do the welding. shouldn't be a problem. how much u looking to get it for?

[2oodoor]

This is fantastic!

Is the motor sitting kinda lope eared? Kinda like the drivers side mount needs lifted I dunno.
I would be nervous all the time about that filter and plumbing being so high up, I would probably use two pressure senders one upper (oem) and one upper. lol

Looks great man and love the master cyl bootie!

[razordave123]

In my head, my daily drivers are race cars haha thats usually why my shizz always broken. maybe I should buy one specifically for racing...

do you have a build thread on here? I'd like to see what all you've done to it.

before I found this site, I was telling my buddy I wanted to buy a plasma cutter to duplicate the intake mani from steel tubing to run sidedrafts, I was trying to figure out what carbs to use.

How do the bike carbs work out? my thought on that was the motor they came from was 1000cc? and the 2.0 is obviously approximately 2000cc

anyway, sweet ass car!

[turabaka]

This is fantastic!

Is the motor sitting kinda lope eared? Kinda like the drivers side mount needs lifted I dunno.
I would be nervous all the time about that filter and plumbing being so high up, I would probably use two pressure senders one upper (oem) and one upper. lol

Looks great man and love the master cyl bootie!

Yeah the motor does sit kinda lopsided. I've never been able to figure out why. The motor mounts are all fresh, and installed correctly. I'm thinking it might be a byproduct of maybe having the wrong front mount. Since these motors came with stamped, and cast brackets that were slightly different.

I might add another pressure sensor sometime down the line. There's a spot to put one on the filter housing, so that would be the highest point in the setup.

razordave. That's exactly how I built this manifold. Cut the flange out with a plasma cutter, and welded four pipes onto it at the right angle. Then connected them on the underside for a balance tube.

If I remember right the carbs are 34mm keihin's from a cbr600. They give way better throttle response than the weber I used to have, and coupled with the 8 pound flywheel it's like driving a bike now as far as the throttle goes. They're getting a bit small though. They were plenty big before I rebuilt the head and had 1mm shaved off of it. Now it's seeming a bit on the small side. Next set is probably going to be Yamaha R1 carbs if I can't find a set of 44mm mikunis. The thing to remember is that these carbs are sized for motors that wrap out way higher than we do. If a 1000cc bike is going to 10k, and we're only going to 7 that's a lot of air going into that little tiny motor.

Unfortunately no build thread yet. I'm a lazy ass, and I haven't kept my foundation membership up to date. One of these days I'll get a builld thread going though.

[lostforawhile]

Yeah the motor does sit kinda lopsided. I've never been able to figure out why. The motor mounts are all fresh, and installed correctly. I'm thinking it might be a byproduct of maybe having the wrong front mount. Since these motors came with stamped, and cast brackets that were slightly different.

I might add another pressure sensor sometime down the line. There's a spot to put one on the filter housing, so that would be the highest point in the setup.

razordave. That's exactly how I built this manifold. Cut the flange out with a plasma cutter, and welded four pipes onto it at the right angle. Then connected them on the underside for a balance tube.

If I remember right the carbs are 34mm keihin's from a cbr600. They give way better throttle response than the weber I used to have, and coupled with the 8 pound flywheel it's like driving a bike now as far as the throttle goes. They're getting a bit small though. They were plenty big before I rebuilt the head and had 1mm shaved off of it. Now it's seeming a bit on the small side. Next set is probably going to be Yamaha R1 carbs if I can't find a set of 44mm mikunis. The thing to remember is that these carbs are sized for motors that wrap out way higher than we do. If a 1000cc bike is going to 10k, and we're only going to 7 that's a lot of air going into that little tiny motor.

Unfortunately no build thread yet. I'm a lazy ass, and I haven't kept my foundation membership up to date. One of these days I'll get a builld thread going though.
it's your front mount, I had the same issue, they only to seem to sell the mount for the FI cars, if you change to the bracket from one of those motors, it will fit right

[turabaka]

it's your front mount, I had the same issue, they only to seem to sell the mount for the FI cars, if you change to the bracket from one of those motors, it will fit right

Yeah I know. I think I'm just gonna go with those GM energy suspension mounts, and run the proper bracket for those. Who was the one selling those brackets again?

[lostforawhile]

Yeah I know. I think I'm just gonna go with those GM energy suspension mounts, and run the proper bracket for those. Who was the one selling those brackets again?
you beat me to it, it's cygnus x-1 I got one for the rear mount, he says the will fit both the front and back. I made my own front mount

[turabaka]

you beat me to it, it's cygnus x-1 I got one for the rear mount, he says the will fit both the front and back. I made my own front mount

Thanks lost. I'm gonna end up replacing both the front and rear mount. You think those GM mounts are stiff enough to get rid of the dogbone mount?

[lostforawhile]

Thanks lost. I'm gonna end up replacing both the front and rear mount. You think those GM mounts are stiff enough to get rid of the dogbone mount?

Ive heard they are, it's an energy suspension mount, you would have an urethane mount on both the front and back, and a side mount, I used my dog bone arm to mount my catch can. I also replaced the big end of it with a solid aluminum mount. I plan on turning a small end out of urethane or doing the trick of filling it with urethane

[razordave123]

while we're on the subject of mounts, torque dampener? basically a shock absorber, right? I had a buddy in high school who had a saturn, he broke the upper rear mount and was too cheap to spend 40 dollars on one, so he put in a steel chain ha bolted it to his firewall. I never looked at it after a week or so, so I couldn't tell you if it held up.

[turabaka]

while we're on the subject of mounts, torque dampener? basically a shock absorber, right? I had a buddy in high school who had a saturn, he broke the upper rear mount and was too cheap to spend 40 dollars on one, so he put in a steel chain ha bolted it to his firewall. I never looked at it after a week or so, so I couldn't tell you if it held up.

That wouldn't work on these cars since the whole point of the torque dampener is to keep the motor from torquing towards the firewall. not away from it. In theory with beefy enough motor mounts you don't need it at all.

[lostforawhile]

That wouldn't work on these cars since the whole point of the torque dampener is to keep the motor from torquing towards the firewall. not away from it. In theory with beefy enough motor mounts you don't need it at all.
those energy suspension mounts also have an interlock, the top of the mount can't separate from the bottom. The only issue with getting rid of the dog bone, is the engine is still going to move under acceleration, this is movement that is wasted not turning the wheels, the wheels don't want to move so the engine twists instead, no mount by itself is going to stop this. I noticed a big difference going to the partly solid dog bone, the engine can move somewhat but not nearly as much, I definitely think you will have far less engine movement with it there and if you do the urethane conversion

[turabaka]

those energy suspension mounts also have an interlock, the top of the mount can't separate from the bottom. The only issue with getting rid of the dog bone, is the engine is still going to move under acceleration, this is movement that is wasted not turning the wheels, the wheels don't want to move so the engine twists instead, no mount by itself is going to stop this. I noticed a big difference going to the partly solid dog bone, the engine can move somewhat but not nearly as much, I definitely think you will have far less engine movement with it there and if you do the urethane conversion

Honestly I haven't had any problems with the motor torquing. I have all of the mounts including the dogbone bushings filled with poly, and they're quite strong now. I just hate how the engine sits cockeyed. Plus it'd be nice to have cheap, easily replaceable poly mounts.

I guess it will wait to be seen until after I get the energy suspension mounts. I'll try it both ways, and if I don't notice a big difference in engine movement I'll delete it. Otherwise it stays.

[lostforawhile]

Honestly I haven't had any problems with the motor torquing. I have all of the mounts including the dogbone bushings filled with poly, and they're quite strong now. I just hate how the engine sits cockeyed. Plus it'd be nice to have cheap, easily replaceable poly mounts.

I guess it will wait to be seen until after I get the energy suspension mounts. I'll try it both ways, and if I don't notice a big difference in engine movement I'll delete it. Otherwise it stays.
he has those mounts available, the thread shows the energy suspension mount part number to get that bolts to them, the mounts usually go for about 30 each, the energy suspension part,but will probably outlast the car

[cygnus x-1]

Honestly I haven't had any problems with the motor torquing. I have all of the mounts including the dogbone bushings filled with poly, and they're quite strong now. I just hate how the engine sits cockeyed. Plus it'd be nice to have cheap, easily replaceable poly mounts.

I guess it will wait to be seen until after I get the energy suspension mounts. I'll try it both ways, and if I don't notice a big difference in engine movement I'll delete it. Otherwise it stays.


All the DX Accords should use the shorter front mount with the stamped engine bracket. You have the cast bracket which is used with the taller front mount, so I'm guessing you have the taller front mount as well. That would be why the engine sits wrong.

The mount brackets I made along with the GM tranny mount are designed around the shorter stock mounts, so they will work for both the front and rear mount. They should also work on cars with the taller front mount if you add a spacer or switch to the stamped engine bracket. I can't absolutely confirm it will work but I'm pretty sure it will.

The GM poly mounts are about as close as you can get to solid mounts without actually being solid. You can remove the torque arm and still have virtually no engine wind up. That was my motivation for designing them in the first place.


C|

[turabaka]

All the DX Accords should use the shorter front mount with the stamped engine bracket. You have the cast bracket which is used with the taller front mount, so I'm guessing you have the taller front mount as well. That would be why the engine sits wrong.

The mount brackets I made along with the GM tranny mount are designed around the shorter stock mounts, so they will work for both the front and rear mount. They should also work on cars with the taller front mount if you add a spacer or switch to the stamped engine bracket. I can't absolutely confirm it will work but I'm pretty sure it will.

The GM poly mounts are about as close as you can get to solid mounts without actually being solid. You can remove the torque arm and still have virtually no engine wind up. That was my motivation for designing them in the first place.


C|

Nice! I'll be hitting you up in a couple of weeks for mount brackets then.

[razordave123]

make any progress on your trackcar? I officially have a rod knock, the accords been sitting all week now. workin on a couple swap ideas, maybe even using this one for parts :( Only for her twin though.