Left turn help! LUCAS??

[RobDirt89]

Hi im Rob i race on a dirt track oval. I have an 89 accord lxi a20a3 FI. I recently blew up my engine, aka rod through the block. It was cyl 1. For the first 4 races i had 3 qts 20w50 and one qt of lucas oil stabilizer. It seemed ok, then i noticed shavings aka small metal particles in the oil. So i drained the oil and changed the filter. I put 20w50 back in with no lucas treatment. I heard that the lucas oil treatment tends to foam up at high rpm which is where my engine is at for a whole race, 6 to 8k. I only got 2 more races out of the car and its only 6 laps per race. SO i dont know if it was just the lucas that ran my rod bearing dry or constantly turning left with the oil pump pickup being on the left side of the car. ANY help would be greatly appreciated!! and yes i have another shortblock witch i am currently installing, with a cam from delta 272 grind, and a shaved head. 2in straight pipe exhaust and short ram intake.

[cygnus x-1]

It could very well be that your oil pump was starved and roasted the bearings. There is a thread in the Classic Prelude section with some pictures of oil pan baffling that would help with this.

But 8000RPM is pretty high for a stock A20 block, so that will cut it's life down drastically. If possible you might look into doing a trans swap to get some taller gears. I think the carbed engines had taller gears than the FI engines. Also you should also balance all the bottom end parts as close as possible to minimize vibration stress. Shot peening the rods will also help, and you can get ARP rod bolts for them too. If you search around, the part number is in a thread somewhere.

I've never used any sort of oil additives so I can't say much there.

BTW, where do you race at? I live up by Waukegan so not very far from Dekalb.


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[lostforawhile]

the oil pump was starved, if you are going to constantly be turning left, why not build a pickup that is closer to the right side where the oil is being thrown? also put in an accusump to prevent oil starvation, you don't run an oil pressure gauge? i would be running a big ass gauge and one of those super bright warning lights

[itzdave]

and i think that oil might be a little too thick...

[lostforawhile]

yea don't use the lucas, it's been well documented to turn into foam especially at high rpm's, oil pumps pump oil not foam, use a quality oil designed for racing, maby redline, or something along those lines, they can take a lot more abuse then oil designed for street driving,

[2oodoor]

the only oil additive I would ever consider using is the metal treatment type such as Z max or Pro-blend, those are NOT a viscosity modifiers by the way.

Another thing that could be part of the problem is the oil pump sealing , these have the rubber gasket that tends to split with age. Those can cause intermitant oil pressure drops.

How extreme are the corners at the track?

[turabaka]

and i think that oil might be a little too thick...

You must not have read your Haynes manual. 20w50 is supposed to be okay in these cars.

[cygnus x-1]

You must not have read your Haynes manual. 20w50 is supposed to be okay in these cars.


Even the factory service manual lists 20W-50 for warm climate use. Although I have to say that I have 20W-50 in my 'lude right now and it's really a bit much. On a high mileage engine (loose) it might be beneficial in keeping the oil pressure up, but with a fresh engine and high revving the oil pressure is going to be REALLY high. 10W-40 is probably a better choice. I would also recommend an oil pressure gauge, preferably with an electronic sensor so you don't have to worry about the pressure line to the gauge breaking and spewing oil everywhere. Especially on a race vehicle, reliability is important.


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[RobDirt89]

I forgot to mention that this is a budget build but i have so much in the car i cant stop now. The track is Sycamore Speedway, id say it has a medium bank to it in the corners.

I just picked up a nice oil pressure gauge so i can know whats going on there. Where is a good place to tap in for the gauge feed? also i am replacing the oil pump o-rings so i wont have any problems. But i have two pumps and one spins a little easier then the other. Im thinking put the one on with more resistance, because of tighter tolerances??.

What if i overfilled the engine with oil so more would stay down in the pan, maybe like 1qt extra. Also im going to stick with the 20w50 because the shortblock i have is used. I will be adding a zinc additive for breaking in the cam though.
I just got the cyl. head back from the machine shop, so assembly starts tomorrow.

[89T]

if you want to buy a new engine, transmission, or power steering pump keep using lucas additives.

I would not run that oil unless you are running acl race bearings. The clearances are too tight with oem bearings for the rpm you are running.

They say that oil works, but on a daily driver that would never see the track or high rpm.. What you have is a race car not street car. So, the normal rules dont apply.

[lostforawhile]

I forgot to mention that this is a budget build but i have so much in the car i cant stop now. The track is Sycamore Speedway, id say it has a medium bank to it in the corners.

I just picked up a nice oil pressure gauge so i can know whats going on there. Where is a good place to tap in for the gauge feed? also i am replacing the oil pump o-rings so i wont have any problems. But i have two pumps and one spins a little easier then the other. Im thinking put the one on with more resistance, because of tighter tolerances??.

What if i overfilled the engine with oil so more would stay down in the pan, maybe like 1qt extra. Also im going to stick with the 20w50 because the shortblock i have is used. I will be adding a zinc additive for breaking in the cam though.
I just got the cyl. head back from the machine shop, so assembly starts tomorrow.
if you overfill the engine, the crank will whip the oil up into foam, and it will also be sucked up the pcv pickup and burned in the engine, until the level drops to near normal, if you want extra capacity, get the adapters and run a remote oversize filter, and adapter for the lines to hook up, don't just get a PH8A, get a remote filter for a truck, at least a quart capacity, I found mine on ebay, a quart doesn't seem like much, but think on average an engine has four quarts, that's a 25 percent increase in oil capacity, extra oil means it stays somewhat cooler and the oil isn't working so hard, since there's more of it. also if you are racing, add a good oil cooler, if you add the remote filter, it makes doing this easy, if this is a dedicated track car, you won't need an oil thermostat, I would put on the accusump, this forces oil into the engine if oil pressure drops, then it's forced back into the accusump when it rises, these cars will drop oil pressure changing lanes hard, let alone on the track. there are also baffles and windage trays available, if you are racing, you should be running both, there is a link somewhere on here for a teflon coated crank scraper, that keeps oil off of the rotating assembly, puts it back in the pan, and builds a few horsepower in the process

[lostforawhile]

here's the link http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Honda-Acura_A-SERIES.html

[cygnus x-1]

If you're having problems with starving the oil pickup, the only thing that will help is to keep the oil nearer to the pickup tube. Adding extra capacity won't help if it's not where the pump can get it. You really need some sort of baffling in the pan, and possibly even a deeper sump and longer pickup tube. If you have a welder available it wouldn't be that hard to add some baffle plates or even deepen the pan.

A windage tray is a good idea if you don't have one. They were stock on the later fuel injected engines and you could get one at a junkyard for next to nothing.

For the oil pressure sensor, use the same location as the stock pressure switch (on the filter mount). If you have a gauge the stock switch is useless. The threads are 1/8 BRITISH standard pipe taper, but they're close enough that you can get away with retapping it for 1/8" NPT to match an aftermarket sending unit. (Yes, it's sleazy, and Lost will have a heart attack for me saying this but I've done it, and it does work.) Just be careful not to tap it too deep and use a good thread sealant. If you aren't comfortable doing it that way you can also get adapters to convert the BSPT to something else. They aren't easy to find though.


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[Vanilla Sky]

Can you baffle your oil pan? If I were running on a banked track, I wouldn't run without a baffled pan.

[lostforawhile]

If you're having problems with starving the oil pickup, the only thing that will help is to keep the oil nearer to the pickup tube. Adding extra capacity won't help if it's not where the pump can get it. You really need some sort of baffling in the pan, and possibly even a deeper sump and longer pickup tube. If you have a welder available it wouldn't be that hard to add some baffle plates or even deepen the pan.

A windage tray is a good idea if you don't have one. They were stock on the later fuel injected engines and you could get one at a junkyard for next to nothing.

For the oil pressure sensor, use the same location as the stock pressure switch (on the filter mount). If you have a gauge the stock switch is useless. The threads are 1/8 BRITISH standard pipe taper, but they're close enough that you can get away with retapping it for 1/8" NPT to match an aftermarket sending unit. (Yes, it's sleazy, and Lost will have a heart attack for me saying this but I've done it, and it does work.) Just be careful not to tap it too deep and use a good thread sealant. If you aren't comfortable doing it that way you can also get adapters to convert the BSPT to something else. They aren't easy to find though.


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i'll find the part number for the adapter later, they are cheap, MSC carries them as well as mcmaster carr, remember if you are turning left, the oil is going to the right, thats where it needs to be picked up

[RobDirt89]

THANKS FOR THE HELP!! Good news, I got the oil pressure gauge. Bad news i will have the car ready for sat. night races. AKA no baffles or crank scraper. but nobody can keep me off the track lol.
So im going to keep a close eye on the pressure. Over fill it a bit and hope for the best. I have an extra oil pan lying around and im going to weld in my own baffle. And get it on the car asap!!

Also i got a GREDDY clutch kit for $46.50 online. Im kinda worried about it but every part was boxed great and looked better than what i would get from napa. I was just stunned it was so cheap.

I got the head on the block and everything else mounted except the trans. It looks good, anyone have any tips on adjusting the valves on a reground cam?

Also everything i do has to look stock, im kinda cheating with the cam lol.

[2oodoor]

.007 and .011 on the valves, best to do it loose the first time and try it...
overfilling the oil just seems like a bad idea, it could slow you down! Are we really all that sure that gravity is your pressure issue?
double check the torque on the head bolts after their all torqued, watch and smell for oil leaks! Good luck this weekend!

[lostforawhile]

THANKS FOR THE HELP!! Good news, I got the oil pressure gauge. Bad news i will have the car ready for sat. night races. AKA no baffles or crank scraper. but nobody can keep me off the track lol.
So im going to keep a close eye on the pressure. Over fill it a bit and hope for the best. I have an extra oil pan lying around and im going to weld in my own baffle. And get it on the car asap!!

Also i got a GREDDY clutch kit for $46.50 online. Im kinda worried about it but every part was boxed great and looked better than what i would get from napa. I was just stunned it was so cheap.

I got the head on the block and everything else mounted except the trans. It looks good, anyone have any tips on adjusting the valves on a reground cam?

Also everything i do has to look stock, im kinda cheating with the cam lol.

DO NOT OVERFILL!! did you read anything I posted? thats the worst thing you can do

[RobDirt89]

OK! I wont overfill it. This weekend im going to take it easy, sortof break the engine, cam, and clutch in. that way i can baffle the other pan that i have and install it for next week.

[Vanilla Sky]

Overfilling is a trick road racers use. It really depends on whether or not your crank is splashing in it or not. You can fill it up to the point where the oil line is just under the crank. There should be enough up in the head that you won't have your crank going through your oil, even in a turn.

Then again, I've never put the oil dipstick in an A20 without an oil pan, so I don't know how low the oil sits in the pan. Take my advice with a grain of salt.

[lostforawhile]

Overfilling is a trick road racers use. It really depends on whether or not your crank is splashing in it or not. You can fill it up to the point where the oil line is just under the crank. There should be enough up in the head that you won't have your crank going through your oil, even in a turn.

Then again, I've never put the oil dipstick in an A20 without an oil pan, so I don't know how low the oil sits in the pan. Take my advice with a grain of salt.
the main issue, is it can cause oil to be sucked directly through the PCV pickup, it overcomes the oil separator and sucks oil into the intake, don't ask me how I know, :sad2::rolleyes: it won't drain all the oil or anything, just down to a normal level, but it will appear there aren't any oil rings in the engine

[Dr_Snooz]

but nobody can keep me off the track lol.

A blown engine will keep you off the track. Why not just fix it right?

[RobDirt89]

I finished up installing the engine on Saturday. I had a few things to do like, finish making my solid motor mount and egr block off plates. also fill it with oil and water. It started on about the fifth turn of the crank, and man it sounded good with no misfires. At first it had no oil pressure but soon realized it was just a kink in the gauge feed tube. It was about 25-30psi at idle and 50-55psi when i rev. it.
I let it warm up. at first i couldnt hear the new delta 272 cam, but after the engine was up to temp i could hear the slight lope at idle. It seemed to rev a little more freely also. Sounds great with the straight pipe.

I got to the track and drew an 8th starting position. Not to bad out of 12 cars. In the heat race i was lined up on the outside. My plan was to go easy on it, so i did and believe i finished the race where i started. hard to tell because it gets crazy out there.

The feature race i started in the inside in the 4th row. The car had good oil pressure, so i decided to go a little harder. I got up to 3rd in about 2 laps and stayed there till the white flag. some kind of Acura snuck buy me on the inside. So i finished 4th.

The car pulled amazingly hard in the straights. i think its going to be one of the fastest cars out there. Im going to race next friday night because they let all cars do time trials for starting positions.

Thanks for all the help guys. Im working on baffling the pan i have now.

[Dr_Snooz]

I went to the fair a couple weeks ago and watched some racing. It was my first time watching live racing. The cars were all stock, FWD econoboxes from the '80s. They would race 10 laps one direction and then 10 in the other. There was an old battered 3g out there. It was a scream to watch.

After that, they had dirt modified racing. It was unbelievably loud and terrifyingly fast. The cars would kick big chunks of dirt into the stands on each pass. When a clod hit me in the eye, I bailed.

Anyway, nice work on the race and don't get into dirt modified racing.

[RobDirt89]

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/Robdirt89/2011-06-23_13-44-36_9161.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/Robdirt89/2011-06-23_13-44-18_47.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/Robdirt89/2011-06-23_09-03-09_48.jpg

[2oodoor]

so what is going on?

[RobDirt89]

Well I won the race. The FEATURE RACE, it was so much fun. That A20 pulled so hard on the straights! lol I beat VTEC Acuras and hondas. Idk what years but i got pics of the trophy..http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/Robdirt89/2011-07-01_23-24-47_156.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/Robdirt89/2011-07-02_00-44-30_5341.jpg

[itzdave]

huge ass trophy! congrats!

[2oodoor]

I knew you would like that cam and when you said " im a gonna take it easy and break it in just try to finish place" I was like, yeah as if....
congrats!

[RobDirt89]

Hey guys, car is doing good. Except for one thing, I think its detonating. When its sitting at an idle the tach jumps around and I feel a slight kick whenever it jumps. The car idles about 1100 very smooth until this happens. I can't feel or hear it off idle but may be due to strait pipe exhaust, solid motor mounts and a bumpy track.

I have all new plugs wires cap rotor and ignition control module. I took the cap off to check for carbon tracking, cleaned everything off in the dizzy.
also when I bought the car it would kick back against the starter while cranking, that's why I replaced the icm.

Im going to start by checking timing and adding a ground to the dizzy. Any suggestions?

[2drSE-i]

What about the ignition coil?

[2oodoor]

leaky injector?
I assume you at least lapped all the valves in when you pulled the head off. Recheck your valve lash.
sounds like you are already studying ignition bugs...

Recheck vacuum leaks, especially intermitant ones that would affect mixture and MAP signals.


A buddy of mine removed all the fast idle valve crap and as much useless junk off the throttle body as possible, on his dirt runner. Look into ?EGR leaks too those are hidden vac leaks, esp at idle if there hung or if you blocked it off it may be seeping past under the block off.

i wouldnt run a true staight pipe exhaust, it needs some backpressure or your going to have O2 sensor inconsitancies.

[RobDirt89]

Well i had the head pressure tested when it was at the machine shop. so i know im good there and i adjusted the valves last week but im sure it wouldnt hurt to do it again.

I dont have any vacuum leaks either, all new gaskets. and my egr block off plates i applied a copper sealant to those. I can spray carb cleaner all over the intake and the idle doesnt change. and i dont mind the higher idle i have because you cant hear the cam as much.

My exhaust is only 1 7/8 i think and it extends to the rear wheel like a nascar. The exhaust does smell like a lawnmower would. I know its running rich but i dont have any way to check the mixture and or adjust it. Any fuel system goodies are illegal at my track.


What about the ignition coil?
Im thinking it is something to do with the ignition because of previous problems. one time it died at the track so i towed it home. In my garage i narrowed it down to a no spark. I had my buddy crank the car while i tapped on the coil and the dizzy. One tap on the dizzy and it fired right up. I never figured out what it was. thats why im thinking ground. Its definitely acting like its pre-igniting.

Also im going to try 93 octane for this friday nights races.

[JohnBoy]

ok not to be a ass but i got feed up reading half way through because yes you can ove fill the oil 1 qt.put in valvalen vr1 straight 40 wt. because your not running it in the winter and you really dont want the oil going down in weight and be fine on circle track it will be fine be get a crank scrapper. then drill two holes in the valve cover and run those lines to a tank and mount it on the passenger side of the car i used a old fire exsigwiser. the z max is a good idea. i have a accord and 93 eclipes i run this was but if your looking to drop the rpms run a 205 in the rf and a 185 in the left front and kind of do the same in the back. but rr keep it smaller then 205. put the front swap bar in a bind by putting a spacer betwwen the nut on top and the bar on the drive side. if you need any more info just ask

[lostforawhile]

ok not to be a ass but i got feed up reading half way through because yes you can ove fill the oil 1 qt.put in valvalen vr1 straight 40 wt. because your not running it in the winter and you really dont want the oil going down in weight and be fine on circle track it will be fine be get a crank scrapper. then drill two holes in the valve cover and run those lines to a tank and mount it on the passenger side of the car i used a old fire exsigwiser. the z max is a good idea. i have a accord and 93 eclipes i run this was but if your looking to drop the rpms run a 205 in the rf and a 185 in the left front and kind of do the same in the back. but rr keep it smaller then 205. put the front swap bar in a bind by putting a spacer betwwen the nut on top and the bar on the drive side. if you need any more info just askSPELL CHECK!! if you overfill this engine, the crank will start hitting oil, the pcv system will also pick up oil and overwhelm the oil separator.

[JohnBoy]

for one it dosent make that big of a difference two thats what the over flow tanks for you plug the port into the intake. but thats for trying this isnt my frist rodeo

[lostforawhile]

for one it dosent make that big of a difference two thats what the over flow tanks for you plug the port into the intake. but thats for trying this isnt my frist rodeo
apparently it is, the crank will just make a mess out of the oil it's turning into a milkshake and you will end up losing pressure, why not put the right amount of oil into it in the first place? ust use that and an accusump and you won't have an issue,this engine is sensitive to overfilling. I've only been working on them for about 20 years, but of course I know nothing

[JohnBoy]

thats fine we can argue tell were both blue in the face but its the way circle track guys have been doing it forever. i do it this way and have never had a problem with starving the motor the only problem with fluids i have ever had with them is gas not getting to the pick up and ether you keep it above 1/4 tank or get a cell with foam in it. but what ever ill just let you do it how ever you guys want.

[2oodoor]

i have a accord and 93 eclipes i run this was but if your looking to drop the rpms run a 205 in the rf and a 185 in the left front and kind of do the same in the back. but rr keep it smaller then 205. put the front swap bar in a bind by putting a spacer betwwen the nut on top and the bar on the drive side. if you need any more info just ask

is this using 14 inch tires? I dunno but what I seen with either 13 or 15 inch a 205 is way obvious different than a 185 and would nver make it past tech.. and would make the car obviously slanted.
I guess of course that varys between brands and if they were 70 or 65.60 sizes too. You could get by I suppose using a 205/60 and a 195 or 185/70 if you leveled the body to the suspension and got the tires good and dirty lol.

I appreciate the tips all the same because it goes with a grain of salt and makes for a valid exchange of ideas.

[JohnBoy]

grind the tire size off they dont know if you hit a wall with it or came it to some one down the back strech. plus that tire probably has 3/4 to 1 1/2 of camber. i dont know waht class you running in but our roadrunners/horrnet class is suppost to only run 3/4.

[RobDirt89]

Some good info on tires, i never thought to grind the size off!!

The season ended and the car is pretty beat up. But i know it has one more race in it. I never had any more oil problems and it never burned any. All i did was overfill it 1/2 a quart. Im going to enter in to The Goblin 250 In Rockford IL The only problem is its 250 laps, on asphalt! Should be interesting.

Here is the rules.
http://www.rockfordspeedway.com/pdfs/11GOBLIN_01.pdf

[RobDirt89]

Ive decided to sell the car or whats left of it. Their is still lots of good parts on it. I have a thread in the for sale section. Let me know if you want anything off this car.

[2oodoor]

too far

[Vanilla Sky]

So, how many runs did you get out of the car? A 250 on asphalt is pretty taxing on a car. How well did your car place? I'd love to see more of these cars on the race track, even if it means that the cars only last a season. Better to go out in a blaze of glory than flicker out like a candle in the wind.

[RobDirt89]

So, how many runs did you get out of the car? A 250 on asphalt is pretty taxing on a car. How well did your car place? I'd love to see more of these cars on the race track, even if it means that the cars only last a season. Better to go out in a blaze of glory than flicker out like a candle in the wind.
Well i did get a whole year out of the car making repairs as the season went on. Had to do alot of hammering on the body and suspension. Its actually still running strong. In the 250 enduro i placed 43 out of 120 cars. I probably gained about 12 places from where i started. I completed 131 laps but got knocked out due to a hole in the radiator and out of tires that would hold air. (lots of debris out on the track, hard to miss) but it was a blast. And i stopped before i overheated the engine.
As far as "runs" i raced in about 60 races, heats and features. If nobody buys the car over the winter their is a spring enduro i just may have to do.

[2oodoor]

WHOLLY CRAP , 120 cars! There is nowhere around here that would tolerate that kind of time to race fwd class, that would be a blast to participate in.

[RobDirt89]

WHOLLY CRAP , 120 cars! There is nowhere around here that would tolerate that kind of time to race fwd class, that would be a blast to participate in.

Yes 120 cars, its a semi-annual race. The spring enduro is shortened a bit down to 200 laps. It was definitely the best racing experience ive had.

[Vanilla Sky]

Sounds like a blast! I'm glad the car survived a whole season to be completely honest. I know circle track guys in my area that kill a car after a weekend or two.

One last moment of glory before going down in flames.

If you return with the same car next year, what kind of repairs will you have to do besides the radiator? I know how hard of a life being a race car is, especially full contact racing, and if a car can survive a whole year with only minor repairs, I'd consider it to be pretty durable.