A20 Engine Build Research for Rhonda And Shelly

[ShyBoyCA6]

Ok as some of you know i bought Monkey's Coupe Rhonda. Well the engine is giving up on me slowly so a rebuild will be coming down in a few months.I know that throwing a b16b or a b18c1 will be a good idea but i don't wanna drop in that motor in my cars. so i wanna build a perfect A20A3 motor and im willing to put the time and effort to keep the A series alive. A complete rebuild with a higher Compression with OBD1. so i been up late and been reading on pistons that might fit or not with a bit of work. i was wondering whats the highest compression anyone has done here. I read someone did K20 pistons but he has a turbo in his car i think. I was looking for at least 140hp or 150hp all motor which i doubt i wont reach it that much but would like to try to get close enough. i know some of guys here have done alot of work and maybe thought you guys can throw some ideas. for sure ill be getting a Level 2 cam or the ones that get alot of good feedback. I hope i can get some really good info. Thanks for any Info! :)

[cygnus x-1]

so i wanna build a perfect A20A3 motor and im willing to put the time and effort to keep the A series alive. A complete rebuild with a higher Compression with OBD1. so i been up late and been reading on pistons that might fit or not with a bit of work. i was wondering whats the highest compression anyone has done here.

The highest compression that I know of was the engine originally put together by Openloop, which was then sold to MessyHonda, and then I believe Hondalude86. That engine had welded up combustion chambers and the compression was somewhere around 10.5:1 (guestimate). I don't know if it was ever actually measured for real but I think it was in the 10 range.

I have long range plans to build up a killer A20 head with bigger valves and compression in the mid 10s as well. I'll be milling the head though instead of welding. I've done some test cuts on a scrap head and I figure I can take off 2mm without compromising the head integrity. No idea when it will be finished though.

To get any higher compression than mid 10s you would need to get custom pistons or do some serious welding and milling on the head. You could go as high as you want if you have the money to throw at it.



I read someone did K20 pistons but he has a turbo in his car i think.

Never hear of using K pistons. There are some B pistons that fit though. You can probably find more info if you search around on the old threads. But you can also just have some custom pistons made. It's expensive, but relatively speaking it's actually not. Figure roughly $600 for set of 4 custom forged pistons. Many of the major piston companies will do this, Diamond, JE, Wiseco, etc.



I was looking for at least 140hp or 150hp all motor which i doubt i wont reach it that much but would like to try to get close enough. i know some of guys here have done alot of work and maybe thought you guys can throw some ideas. for sure ill be getting a Level 2 cam or the ones that get alot of good feedback. I hope i can get some really good info. Thanks for any Info! :)

Those numbers are definitely achievable without turbo. Get the compression up to around 10 or so, do some mild head work, stage 2 cam, B16 or similar intake manifold, some sort of header, cold air intake, and a good tune and you should be set.


C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

The highest compression that I know of was the engine originally put together by Openloop, which was then sold to MessyHonda, and then I believe Hondalude86. That engine had welded up combustion chambers and the compression was somewhere around 10.5:1 (guestimate). I don't know if it was ever actually measured for real but I think it was in the 10 range.

I have long range plans to build up a killer A20 head with bigger valves and compression in the mid 10s as well. I'll be milling the head though instead of welding. I've done some test cuts on a scrap head and I figure I can take off 2mm without compromising the head integrity. No idea when it will be finished though.

To get any higher compression than mid 10s you would need to get custom pistons or do some serious welding and milling on the head. You could go as high as you want if you have the money to throw at it.




Never hear of using K pistons. There are some B pistons that fit though. You can probably find more info if you search around on the old threads. But you can also just have some custom pistons made. It's expensive, but relatively speaking it's actually not. Figure roughly $600 for set of 4 custom forged pistons. Many of the major piston companies will do this, Diamond, JE, Wiseco, etc.




Those numbers are definitely achievable without turbo. Get the compression up to around 10 or so, do some mild head work, stage 2 cam, B16 or similar intake manifold, some sort of header, cold air intake, and a good tune and you should be set.


C|


Thanks Cygnus you been a great help. ill read up on openloops threads and see if i can come up with my own set up instead of copying it to be the same. also i want my motor to be 10.5:1 and not any higher as it might be a hassle if something snaps and causes internal damage.

A friend of mine mentioned Dome Pistons to bring up compression? im not sure if hes right on that but you said that i can order custom pistons from the names you listed. so with mild head work i would need bigger valves? and springs? i dont wanna be asking to many questions or make it seem im being spoon fed with answers. i will be doing the work on the black coupe first since its non operational right now and still under construction for the build. well time to hit the search and start reading some more. thanks again :)

[rjudgey]

Headwork is the key and having a high flowing induction and exhaust header/system.
The block should be hand rebuilt use of 83mm A20A3/4 pistons with 9.4:1 CR ratio as stock combined with a bit off the top of the block .5mm, and 1-1.5mm off the head will get you easily up into the 10.5:1 area possibly bit more, if you wanted to go higher i would recommend custom pistons from diamond using a flat top with just 3 valve relief pockets on each this should get you upto 11:1 area. The block should be blueprinted and oversized rings used and gapped by hand perfectly. You should be able to get a nice high compression from these engines i get typically around 215-225psi from a newly built run in block.
Head should have nice race style valve seats make sure the machinist has Serdi cutting kit or walk away to someone who does, bronze guides a must with aftermarket cams or the stock ones wear out really quickly! port work around the guide and the throat where they meet the seats essential. 1mm seats is key and the valves should be backcut to match the seat widths, a 3 angle with radiused edges is good or a 5 angle is even better but not many shops have the tools for this.
Valve size increase is a must and if you can having smaller stems on all the valves is better but not hugely critical better to have larger valves then just smaller stems or if cost for having the guides made for smaller stems is more and having to switch to new collets and retainers is too much money then stock stem sizes isn't an issue I have 7mm stems all round which is huge compared to most modern engines! but at least they won't be snapping!! lol!!
Camshaft wise if you want something that idles reasonable and gives good all round power then a camshaft off around 260-270 degrees and 10.5-11mm lift is the best 285 degrees and more idle is out the window and so is much of the power below 4k rpm but when you hit 4k rpm it runs like a bat ouf off hell to 8-9k rpm depending on how the engine is built and head is modified.

150bhp is really is to get, 180bhp bit of work 200bhp with some nice bits and bit of money 230-250bhp with a lot of hard work and perfection in headwork and block prep and some nice lightweight titanium parts but not as expensive as you would think!

[gfrg88]

take a look at at hondalude86's build thread, he's doing a nice n/a build

[rjudgey]

Ryans build is a bit over kill for 140-150bhp lol! His engine should be well capable off 200+bhp if his exhaust manifold and system is big enough.

[ShyBoyCA6]

Thanks Rjudgey im beginning to get an idea of what i should look for and precise information! Know to only find a shop that does great work with a lot of feedback i hardly trust anyone when it comes to my stuff and money. ill take a look at the guys build and see what i can get from his or try to go a different way.

Im learning alot for only being here almost 3 years. at first i wanted to take the easy way out but im not that type a guy. so a "Perfect" A20 is gonna be my goal till i find a way to boost it or just go N/A all motor. Thanks for the Help! :D

[rjudgey]

Well theres a nice set of A20A3/4 83mm bore pistons with rings and pins for $87 on the below thread in this section I've ordered 3 sets for spares today.
Start with those rebuilding the block with a rebore, personally I'd opt for some larger rings and hand gap them to the new bore size. ACL race bearings for the crank and rods, have the rods polished/stress relieved, shot peened, balanced, stock bolts are fine, pistons balanced and then have the pins and pistons fitted when all the balancing is complete. If the crank is not damaged and journals are nice and shiny just leave it as is, I've not come across one that has been out of balance yet but might be worth you getting it checked and done if your worried about it. Make sure you get the block cleaned up as well and then you can start assembling this together with a nice new oil pump Toga one is good, and water pump one with cast impeller is the best design. Hopefully you have the A20 with a windage tray most late model ones do, then look around for an oil cooling kit you can rig up onto the oil filter plate. Make sure you have the block decked though to make sure it's flat also helps compression too .5mm is good for a nice bump.
Felpro Head gasket kit worth investing in make sure the head gasket itself is the racing blue one as these are the best we can get for High CR and general race use. Then thats your block sorted next up is the head.

Machine shops are hard to find that are reliable, hopefully your ok main reason why i got into building my own engines is because of unreliable engine builders and dodgy machinists.

[rjudgey]

OK so now onto the head.

Is this going to be a budget build or do we have enough money for bigger valves?
Bigger valves will easily give you more power and torque over stock ones, stock manifold can easily support 140-150bhp if not more.
If sticking with stock setup style injection I would go down this route.
Bigger valves, race style valve seat cuts 1mm seat widths on intake 1.25mm exhaust have the valves backcut to match the seat widths (on stock valves too).
Bronze SI valve guides all round (really cheap upgrade)
Reshape the exhaust port and guide boss end.
Blend intake throats into the intake valve seats
Clean up intake port walls and leave a nice matt to rough finish with flap wheel
Clean up exhaust port walls and leave a nice smooth polished surface
Clean up combustion chamber deshrouding around the valves as much as possible and smoothing out and blending in any machined edges, smoothing off the edge around the chamber to stop pre detonation.
Skim the surface to bump up compression 1.5mm is fine and leaves a bit of meat left for future refurb.
Total off 2mm from head and block should give a nice bump in CR ratio combined with the 83mm A20A3/4 pistons should get you around 10.5:1 maybe a bit more.
Then look at a Bisi or Web cams camshaft with extra lift rather than duration, finish off with a tubular header preferably have the collector modded to have a 2.25" main pipe and have a 2.25" system mandrel bent put on with 2 sports silencers.
Intake wise if you can have the manifold runners polished up, throttle body can be knife edged on the mouth, counter sunk screws into the butterfly, if you can have it professionally bored out and bigger butterfly put in, set of matched slightly larger flowing injectors, an adjustable pressure regulator, and maybe F22 Map sensor, Cold air intake with nice big tubing and filter and if you have the time and electrical skills going for a megasquirt setup is usefull and will gain more power and better economy.
Setup like this should easily get you around 145-155bhp maybe more depends if you run a sports cat or no cat depending on your regulations.

[gfrg88]

Didn't read lol.. If that's all he wants, I'd look into some b18 rods, ttr pistons, some nice work on head/cam, itr IM/TB, and tune :)

[rjudgey]

Think the rods and pistons would be overkill and they'll weigh more than the stock items stock rods very light and pistons aren't too bad if combined with some lightened pins.
I use stock pistons and rods and light pins and have had no issues at 200bhp and 8000rpm spin speed.

[MessyHonda]

its going to take more money to make power in a A than a B

come join the B side

[rjudgey]

Think I'll take a 200bhp A any day the extra torque over B16/18 is pretty considerable! Although a B20A could be pretty interesting with some Webers hope to find out just what can be done in the next few months!

[ShyBoyCA6]

its going to take more money to make power in a A than a B

come join the B side

ill join in time when my A20 decide to let me down then ill join the b side.

[MessyHonda]

ill join in time when my A20 decide to let me down then ill join the b side.

:violin:

[lupen]

My 88 Accord is stock, with carb. I ported the heads and cut the valves. Once that was done I put larger dia. exhaust on. This improved the get up go plus top end on the accord. I have had mine up to 250kph without any other mods. Well had to put a wing on the back, to keep it down forced.

[Rendon LX-i]

Better make the obd1 dizzy modded to fit a a series head to use. (who said a adapter plate was needed) lol looks clean to huh

[gfrg88]

Don't forget that wing for all that crazy power you'll be making!!!!!!

[rjudgey]

Lol not felt the need to use one on my lude just yet felt fine at 150 which is surprising given how light the car is in the back!

[cygnus x-1]

Better make the obd1 dizzy modded to fit a a series head to use. (who said a adapter plate was needed) lol looks clean to huh


Is there a picture of this mod somewhere? I'm curious to see what it looks like.


C|

[gfrg88]

He's talking about cutting the tabs off and rewelding..

[Rendon LX-i]

Nope no cutting or welding. Just grinding an drilling an smoothly things out .

[Rendon LX-i]

The dizzy is sold but it's a f22 of course just some grinding an drilling an wala. Bolts right up .

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066584&postcount=680

[gfrg88]

Sorry, bro. But that shit is FAR from clean!!!

[89T]

True.

Josh send that dizzy to me, and I will clean it up. If you remember I was in a huge rush to get it to you.

[gfrg88]

Function over form... It works. It's easy.. But honestly not as clean as the adapter plate... That's just me though.. Not bashing your work Jerry.. I know you're better than that!!! ;)

[cygnus x-1]

The dizzy is sold but it's a f22 of course just some grinding an drilling an wala. Bolts right up .

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066584&postcount=680


Function over form... It works. It's easy.. But honestly not as clean as the adapter plate... That's just me though.. Not bashing your work Jerry.. I know you're better than that!!! ;)


The adapter plate is cleaner, but it's also expensive. Modifying the distributor is a more direct solution and would be much cheaper. I think I may have to look into this.


Sorry for the threadjack.

C|

[stat1K]

i would rather get an adapter plate based on having to adapt any new distributor you might buy.

[Rendon LX-i]

o i agree. But it looks cleaner on the other side LOL i just showed you the back side which you wont see. I agree on the adapter plate looking much cleaner. BUt for a budget guy like myself couldnt afford it. If you look at jerrys pics youll see it looks clean. Jerry is the man and i give jerry props hands down to him for doing such awesome work.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1015453&postcount=216. MUCH MUCH cleaner when its bolted up. looks like oem. TO ME it looks better cause it look like it belongs there. DOwn fall if it ever fails you cant return it or warrenty it. BUt looks awesome and works.

[89T]

regardless, I am not doing anymore. I will clean up 3gr#2. free of charge. Ship it to me and i'll ship it back.

[lostforawhile]

I was looking for at least 140hp or 150hp all motor which i doubt i wont reach it that much but would like to try to get close enough. i know some of guys here have done alot of work and maybe thought you guys can throw some ideas. for sure ill be getting a Level 2 cam or the ones that get alot of good feedback. I hope i can get some really good info. Thanks for any Info! :)I'll be watching this thread, I'm going for the same numbers, the Datsun 2000 roadster ran the same SUs I run and the same manifold, it was getting around 130 in stock form, the engines are very close as far as specs, I'm going to guess an engine made in 1986 is probably going to flow better then one made in 1967, both are single overhead cam with similar stroke and bore, both almost the same displacement, the 2000 engine had a slightly bigger bore but a shorter stroke, these a20 engines are really a stroker design, you can tell by looking at the torque all being available low in the power band, they don't have a high redline, but torque is what gets you moving, with a stage one cam,to retain the torque curve, the much better flowing manifold and big dual carbs, 4-1 full length header, ignition, etc, I think I will be able to hit 150, these cars are kind of heavy,so it's best to retain the torque

[ShyBoyCA6]

I'll be watching this thread, I'm going for the same numbers, the Datsun 2000 roadster ran the same SUs I run and the same manifold, it was getting around 130 in stock form, the engines are very close as far as specs, I'm going to guess an engine made in 1986 is probably going to flow better then one made in 1967, both are single overhead cam with similar stroke and bore, both almost the same displacement, the 2000 engine had a slightly bigger bore but a shorter stroke, these a20 engines are really a stroker design, you can tell by looking at the torque all being available low in the power band, they don't have a high redline, but torque is what gets you moving, with a stage one cam,to retain the torque curve, the much better flowing manifold and big dual carbs, 4-1 full length header, ignition, etc, I think I will be able to hit 150, these cars are kind of heavy,so it's best to retain the torque

expect some upgrades pretty soon! having a friend come help me remove both engines and get this show on the road! I will post pictures as i go more into building the spare head i got. Gonna have to buy another block in the mean time or if not use the same one. Stay tuned. 150-160hp here i come :)

[A18A]

i thought you where gonna put in a b-series?

[ShyBoyCA6]

i thought you where gonna put in a b-series?

I have 2 coupes so one will be getting the b series. i already have the B series mounts, just waiting for more money to come in to complete it.

[A18A]

ahh i see now

[obdriver6]

A built A20 and a B swap! I'm jelly!

[Tdurr]

Im jelly too!

[ShyBoyCA6]

Yup :) can't wait. I found a Cable tranny for 100$ i would pick it up but he says that its grinding 3rd gear he is not sure.what do you guys think? Yay or nay? I could rebuild it with fresh parts. Or should i go with the Ys1 with no problems for 250?

[hondalude86]

YS1 no problems for 250...

[obdriver6]

Ys1!

[ShyBoyCA6]

Ok so i called the shop my uncle recommended me to and got this qoute:

1. Rebuilt Head with valves no seals (i would have to get the valve seals for the valves) for $150.

2.Block work: .20 over for $80 (i think he said Decked to0)

3. Japan Pistons with rings: $120

4.Crankshaft: New Crank shaft/w bearings for $110(i have a spare overheated block that i could rebuild fresh if i want.)

im guessing the rebuilt block would be like $500 or $600. im not trying to be cheap but im a budget. well only for the head package cause i don't have enough for the lvl 2. Bisimoto cam, Skunk2 B16 Intake Mani and bisimoto valve springs. i still need to buy a clutch, resurface flywheel, new rotors and brake pads.

Ill be sending the head in for work in a couple weeks like in March 9th for a stock build to get some progress going. Also i got a estimate for 83mm 9.6:1 or 9.5 Compression pistons for the same price. so i will probably order those and get the block done and ready. just one question: would it affect the way the motor runs if i go 83mm with a stock head? or would the head need work as well? i think our pistons are 82.74 or .72... not sure but will look into it.

i could run my motor bored over.20 for now without having to worry about the engine. then i could focus all my attention on the spare motor and work from there. i just wanna get the car working in tip top shape for the accord meet. I haven't slept in 22 hrs cause i been looking for shops and making phone calls. excuse me if this doesn't make sense. being busy like a mofo this month and wanna get a lot done. Stay tuned.

BTW the Ys1 trans is in riverside lol so i will need to borrow a car or someone take me to pick it up...ill let you know what happens with that soon.

[gfrg88]

budget, eh? Get an A18 block. Stock GSR pistons and rods. done.

[cygnus x-1]

Ok so i called the shop my uncle recommended me to and got this qoute:

1. Rebuilt Head with valves no seals (i would have to get the valve seals for the valves) for $150.


The head is where you should put most of your effort if you're looking for power gains. At the least, make sure they are doing a 3-angle cut on the valve seats, and see if they can back cut the intake valves. You can also tell them you want a more of a performance type valve grind with narrower seats. The stock spec is 1.25mm-1.5mm but you can go down to 1.0mm. Narrower seats will mean that the head will have to be rebuilt again sooner, but the stock heads last for 250k miles easily, so if you only get 100k, not a big deal.

$150 seems pretty cheap honestly, so I would ask and make sure they aren't just doing a simple touch up on the seats and not doing a full 3-angle cut.

Back cutting the valve will add a little to the cost but it's worth doing it now while you have the head off for service.

Something else you could do to bump up the compression is to have the head surface milled down. Every 1mm you take off would bump up the compression by about 0.8 points. If the head has never been milled before you could potentially take off as much as 2mm, but that's a bit extreme. Up to 1mm is safe and would get you about 10:1 compression. If you do this you should consider getting an adjustable cam gear to compensate for the change in head height. Milling the head shortens the distance from the cam gear to the crank gear, thereby retarding the cam timing a bit. I don't remember the number exactly but it's something like 2 degrees per 1mm off the head. Not a huge deal but it will shift the engines powerband up a tad towards higher RPMs.




2.Block work: .20 over for $80 (i think he said Decked to0)

3. Japan Pistons with rings: $120

The best (cheap) pistons to use are from either NPR or ITM. NPR makes factory pistons for Honda (supposedly) so they should have the correct dish on the top. There's a guy over on Preludepower that used some from ITM that also look pretty good and have the correct dish as well. The ones you want from ITM are part# RY6396-20 (-20 is for 0.020" over). There is another part# RY6395-xx that has the larger dish (for the lower compression 86-87 engines) but you don't want those.




4.Crankshaft: New Crank shaft/w bearings for $110(i have a spare overheated block that i could rebuild fresh if i want.)

Try and use the stock crank if at all possible. If the journals are scuffed up they might be able to polish them out. As long as they aren't pitted and are still within spec they should be ok.



im guessing the rebuilt block would be like $500 or $600. im not trying to be cheap but im a budget. well only for the head package cause i don't have enough for the lvl 2. Bisimoto cam, Skunk2 B16 Intake Mani and bisimoto valve springs. i still need to buy a clutch, resurface flywheel, new rotors and brake pads.

Unless you plan to rev beyond the factory redline I wouldn't bother with the Bisi springs. The stock springs are pretty good. Things like the cam/intake/exhaust you can always do later when you have more money.

It might be worth asking the shop if they can lighten the flywheel too. When I did my rebuild they were able to cut off the extra outer flange on the flywheel to lighten it up. Just make sure they transfer the timing marks over before they cut it. When they did mine they cut the timing marks off and I had to paint them on again using another flywheel for reference.




Ill be sending the head in for work in a couple weeks like in March 9th for a stock build to get some progress going. Also i got a estimate for 83mm 9.6:1 or 9.5 Compression pistons for the same price. so i will probably order those and get the block done and ready. just one question: would it affect the way the motor runs if i go 83mm with a stock head? or would the head need work as well? i think our pistons are 82.74 or .72... not sure but will look into it.

If the block needs to be bored to 0.020" over, 83mm will be too small. 0.020" is equivalent to 0.5mm, making the pistons 83.2mm. I'm curious about what pistons they are talking about for the higher compression ratio. There aren't any direct replacement pistons (for the A20) that I know about that will raise the compression beyond stock. There are some from other engines that are more or less compatible (83mm B-series, Nissan CA18DET) but I would be surprised if they suggested something like that.

Theoretically over-boring does raise the compression, but it's so small that you won't even notice. We're talking like 1% at best.




i could run my motor bored over.20 for now without having to worry about the engine. then i could focus all my attention on the spare motor and work from there.

With the NPR/ITM pistons the block should be able to handle just about anything you could do to the rest of the engine, short of adding a big turbo (high boost) or a really insane high compression NA head. So I think you'll be good.

C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

budget, eh? Get an A18 block. Stock GSR pistons and rods. done. Hmm that would be nice but i think the carbs engines here are 2.0...but the A18A Block can be found in a 2nd gen prelude if it was carb that is. Any other ideas? Money range is from 900-1100 maybe less if i assemble everything and do the labor myself with a friend.


The head is where you should put most of your effort if you're looking for power gains. At the least, make sure they are doing a 3-angle cut on the valve seats, and see if they can back cut the intake valves. You can also tell them you want a more of a performance type valve grind with narrower seats. The stock spec is 1.25mm-1.5mm but you can go down to 1.0mm. Narrower seats will mean that the head will have to be rebuilt again sooner, but the stock heads last for 250k miles easily, so if you only get 100k, not a big deal.

$150 seems pretty cheap honestly, so I would ask and make sure they aren't just doing a simple touch up on the seats and not doing a full 3-angle cut.

Back cutting the valve will add a little to the cost but it's worth doing it now while you have the head off for service.

Something else you could do to bump up the compression is to have the head surface milled down. Every 1mm you take off would bump up the compression by about 0.8 points. If the head has never been milled before you could potentially take off as much as 2mm, but that's a bit extreme. Up to 1mm is safe and would get you about 10:1 compression. If you do this you should consider getting an adjustable cam gear to compensate for the change in head height. Milling the head shortens the distance from the cam gear to the crank gear, thereby retarding the cam timing a bit. I don't remember the number exactly but it's something like 2 degrees per 1mm off the head. Not a huge deal but it will shift the engines powerband up a tad towards higher RPMs.




The best (cheap) pistons to use are from either NPR or ITM. NPR makes factory pistons for Honda (supposedly) so they should have the correct dish on the top. There's a guy over on Preludepower that used some from ITM that also look pretty good and have the correct dish as well. The ones you want from ITM are part# RY6396-20 (-20 is for 0.020" over). There is another part# RY6395-xx that has the larger dish (for the lower compression 86-87 engines) but you don't want those.





Try and use the stock crank if at all possible. If the journals are scuffed up they might be able to polish them out. As long as they aren't pitted and are still within spec they should be ok.




Unless you plan to rev beyond the factory redline I wouldn't bother with the Bisi springs. The stock springs are pretty good. Things like the cam/intake/exhaust you can always do later when you have more money.

It might be worth asking the shop if they can lighten the flywheel too. When I did my rebuild they were able to cut off the extra outer flange on the flywheel to lighten it up. Just make sure they transfer the timing marks over before they cut it. When they did mine they cut the timing marks off and I had to paint them on again using another flywheel for reference.





If the block needs to be bored to 0.020" over, 83mm will be too small. 0.020" is equivalent to 0.5mm, making the pistons 83.2mm. I'm curious about what pistons they are talking about for the higher compression ratio. There aren't any direct replacement pistons (for the A20) that I know about that will raise the compression beyond stock. There are some from other engines that are more or less compatible (83mm B-series, Nissan CA18DET) but I would be surprised if they suggested something like that.

Theoretically over-boring does raise the compression, but it's so small that you won't even notice. We're talking like 1% at best.





With the NPR/ITM pistons the block should be able to handle just about anything you could do to the rest of the engine, short of adding a big turbo (high boost) or a really insane high compression NA head. So I think you'll be good.

C|

Damn 1%.... :/ hmm ill look into those pistons you listed. The pistons i was talking about are from Jigs or Jegs one of the 2. they said they could make me custom pistons. a set of 4 with rings for that price but the pistons from the shop were just stock. ill post a video of the engine's current condition and also drive around from gear to gear so you can hear how bad it sounds. I wanna see if the block is fixable, if not then ill just take whats needed for the 5spd and swap over to the AT Block. In time i would like to rev it up higher than stock maybe 7500rpm or more if i can.

How much weight did you take off your flywheel? if im not mistaken, i think the flywheel weighs 22lbs. I talked to Customer service at clutchnet.com and asked how much a 10lbs?(not sure on weight)aluminum flywheel was and quoted 495.00. They don't have it in stock so i asked if they could make one and said YES :) just gotta place an order. i think 10 might be to light i would ask for a 12lbs. <---for people that were looking for a flywheels ask them.

For the head cam gear. i have the GE Adjustable gear so i think im in the clear if i go down that route.

Also the Motor mounts should be here on Friday i would need to get the driver side one but not sure where to get it. i dont wanna get the lean like most have had :(

[cygnus x-1]

Any other ideas? Money range is from 900-1100 maybe less if i assemble everything and do the labor myself with a friend.


Assembling yourself will save a lot of money. Just make sure you get a helper that has assembled engines before. It will go a lot faster that way.




Damn 1%.... :/ hmm ill look into those pistons you listed. The pistons i was talking about are from Jigs or Jegs one of the 2. they said they could make me custom pistons. a set of 4 with rings for that price but the pistons from the shop were just stock.

A set of 4 custom pistons for $130? Not likely. Custom forged pistons generally run about $500-$600 for a set of 4, but could be made with any comp ratio you want. The shop would probably be looking at the ITMs or NPR, or possibly another aftermarket brand. The good OEM Honda pistons I think are no longer available.






How much weight did you take off your flywheel? if im not mistaken, i think the flywheel weighs 22lbs. I talked to Customer service at clutchnet.com and asked how much a 10lbs?(not sure on weight)aluminum flywheel was and quoted 495.00. They don't have it in stock so i asked if they could make one and said YES :) just gotta place an order. i think 10 might be to light i would ask for a 12lbs.


You know, I never actually weighed it so I don't know. If I had to guess I would say it was maybe 2-3 lbs lighter. 10lbs total weight might be a handful to drive. Getting 1st gear engaged off the line line will be trickier. $500 is a lot too.




For the head cam gear. i have the GE Adjustable gear so i think im in the clear if i go down that route.

Also the Motor mounts should be here on Friday i would need to get the driver side one but not sure where to get it. i dont wanna get the lean like most have had :(

Cool. The lean comes from using the wrong front mount. The side mount has nothing to do with it. Maybe try Rockauto for the side mount? Don't forget the 5% 3geez discount code from them.


C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

Ill be tearing down the block later today with pictures. Been lazy to get to work on this thing -___-. also i got some Bushings for the control Arm (Polyurethane) for both cars. and i'll get some pics of those as well. Please note that the black coupe(Shelly) will not get the A series build anymore for those of you reading this thread. So expect some new things in this thread for the next 2 months.:nervous:

[ShyBoyCA6]

Oil Base filter
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_16-50-12_905.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_16-50-25_236.jpg

I didn't have a lift and was heavy to lift so i dragged it on the oil pan which i didn't care for anyway. I found Sluged stuff inside the oil pan but on everything else was clean cause i put fresh oil to keep the parts oiled clean.
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_18-23-21_199.jpg

Off with the oil pan
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_18-33-15_477.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_18-33-29_94.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_18-33-37_660.jpg

Took off the oil screening and windage tray if thats what its called.
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-04-27_18-40-02_595.jpg

I also took off the pistons and water and boy i was not happy when i saw the inside of it >:/

Ill post more pictures as im wrenching and taking pics it will slow me down. the only thing that i see that suffered was the mains and the rod bearings everything else look ok.

I got a couple questions though:
1.How do i take off the flexplate bolts and crank pulley? Do i need air tool for this to come off?

2. Kinda curious if i should put b series pistons im stuck in between this decision -___- i mean i do kinda want a good compression. ive seen some B18 Pistions 83mm from CP with 9.8:1 ratio which is something thats ok maybe give me some good numbers to reach 160hp? I got 2 months to complete or more if i need to. well what would i need to use them and is it to much work?

[A18A]

chuck a bolt through one of the holes in the flex plate, then when you loosen them, the bolt will catch on something and the crank wont turn, allowing the bolts to come loose

[rjudgey]

JIS can get you set of nice oversize pistons in the 9.4:1 CR ratio they are amazingly cheap too with rings and pins. They look to be the same as Honda ones most likely from same foundry in Japan.

Block seems to be in good condition although haven't seen the pics of the coolant passages this sounds like there maybe an issue there.

As for headwork be very suspicous of anyone offering headwork that cheap chances are 99% they'll be crap and more likely to do more harm than good!!

Make sure you stick this thing back together with Felpro gaskets and use a new water and oil pump.

[AccordEpicenter]

If any of the main bearings are spun the crank and the block are junk. You also can't run b18 pistons unless you change to an b18a/b rod and I think b18 pistons have a different wrist pin height so idk if they will work in an a20.

[ShyBoyCA6]

JIS can get you set of nice oversize pistons in the 9.4:1 CR ratio they are amazingly cheap too with rings and pins. They look to be the same as Honda ones most likely from same foundry in Japan.

Block seems to be in good condition although haven't seen the pics of the coolant passages this sounds like there maybe an issue there.

As for headwork be very suspicous of anyone offering headwork that cheap chances are 99% they'll be crap and more likely to do more harm than good!!

Make sure you stick this thing back together with Felpro gaskets and use a new water and oil pump.
ill get more pics on the top side. But when I left to NV the wind blew off the plastic bag and some light rust started to come around. I wonder if hot tanking would clean it up.
I hear ya on the head part I found this other place that does rebuilds so im gonna check that out. Ill see if I can get the specs you listed in the first page.

If any of the main bearings are spun the crank and the block are junk. You also can't run b18 pistons unless you change to an b18a/b rod and I think b18 pistons have a different wrist pin height so idk if they will work in an a20.
No spun bearing were found but ill take more pics. Hmm I see.. I guess ill have to find another block and assemble another. The current engine I was using spun bearing number 1 and slightly nember 2 &4 so number one would knock alot. <-- tthis one I wont be using and will be scrap.

[ShyBoyCA6]

On to the pictures: Note: not a pretty sight. Sorry for shitty photos all taken by Phone.

Crank Bearings And Caps:
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-51-16_499.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-51-07_797.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-50-58_27.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-50-46_217.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-50-35_497.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-28-24_988.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-28-35_335.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-29-00_503.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-29-16_35.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-29-21_628.jpg

[ShyBoyCA6]

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-50-23_806.jpg

Now on to the Pistons and rods:
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-09-01_493.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-09-44_997.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-21-01_106.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-21-09_616.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-21-15_720.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-21-20_857.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-23-26_108.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-23-30_729.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-23-34_975.jpg

[ShyBoyCA6]

Stupid laptop froze on me and got fed up that i broke that POS in pieces. Thats the last time i buy a DELL! well im using my uncles laptop which he nevers uses ill probably buy this one off him. well more pics sorry for my rant. now back to the thread.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-11-24_949.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-11-00_102.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-03-58_399.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-55-38_351.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-51-43_324.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-53-40_529.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_18-53-32_561.jpg

[ShyBoyCA6]

Now this might look bad but in person it doesn't, the stupid bag flew off and a lil bit of water got in and this happens. it didnt look like this at all when it was in the car when i was inspecting it. well i think thats it for now i have more pictures but i think thats enough for today. ill be going to Honda dealer ship to order their gaskets and hopefully still make the head gaskets as i seen they are discontinued.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-05-31_116.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-05-00_398.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-04-45_190.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-04-30_551.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-04-35_220.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-05-15_681.jpg
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-05-03_19-05-09_38.jpg

Next up is the Head so i can get the Cam off and send it to bisimoto for a regrind :Cheers: if this motor does not satisfy me ill be taking it apart again to build it for the power. Hopefully the torque will be close to 135 or so now that would be a good DD :D i might out a Stage 2 clutch if i go any higher in number.

[ShyBoyCA6]

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/PJOA3Piston.jpg................................... .............
.......................
...................
.................

Coming soon Medium forced induction for a mild build. :) still leaving room for more power if i decide to want more hp.

[MessyHonda]

yup that was going to be my build too. Mid build and break it in NA and then turbo later once the engine is fully broken in and have more time to have a good turbo set up. im sure a mid built a20 could handle at least 15 pounds

[ShyBoyCA6]

Um for the crank bearings i can't seem to find the ACL racing ones for this car. Can any one point me to the right direction or do i need to special order this bearings? any ideas? would love to have the car running by mid august if not earlier :)



yup that was going to be my build too. Mid build and break it in NA and then turbo later once the engine is fully broken in and have more time to have a good turbo set up. im sure a mid built a20 could handle at least 15 pounds
Gonna stick with NA all motor but i would love to add a supercharger :D now that would sound and perform well.

[obdriver6]

I don't think they make crank bearing for the A20, only con. rod bearings, but you might want to give them a call. Why not use honda ones?

[gfrg88]

B series bearings?

[ShyBoyCA6]

I don't think they make crank bearing for the A20, only con. rod bearings, but you might want to give them a call. Why not use honda ones? ive seen some on this website not sure if it was ACL homepage. If i can't find anything for the crank i guess ill use the honda bearings which will be pricey but i will give them a call.



B series bearings?

huh? for a A20 Block?

[MessyHonda]

ive seen some on this website not sure if it was ACL homepage. If i can't find anything for the crank i guess ill use the honda bearings which will be pricey but i will give them a call.




huh? for a A20 Block?

If the B-series rods fit the bearings should fit too

[obdriver6]

If the B-series rods fit the bearings should fit too

ACL makes connecting rod bearings for the A20 but he's looking for crank bearing.

[cygnus x-1]

I used Toga bearings from these guys:

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

MBH20-HP, and RBH15-HP

They appeared to be good quality parts and fit perfectly.

C|

[AccordEpicenter]

i used king bearings. Its tough to say if those new pistons you have will work with that block yet because those bores look rough. The crank looks fine but i would at least put in new arp rod bolts if youre going to reuse the rods, but you MUST get the big end re sized if you do this also. Its def worth doing as these are the most stressed fastener in the ENTIRE ENGINE.

[ShyBoyCA6]

I used Toga bearings from these guys:

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

MBH20-HP, and RBH15-HP

They appeared to be good quality parts and fit perfectly.

C| ok thanks ill looking into it.


i used king bearings. Its tough to say if those new pistons you have will work with that block yet because those bores look rough. The crank looks fine but i would at least put in new arp rod bolts if youre going to reuse the rods, but you MUST get the big end re sized if you do this also. Its def worth doing as these are the most stressed fastener in the ENTIRE ENGINE. Thanks for the tip :).


Also i checked the other pistons that came in the mail and noticed something i didn't like.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-06-27_15-27-36_662.jpg

I dont know how this passed inspection or if it even passes but it looks horrible. look at the other pic for "PJO and Arrow"
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae295/Prettyboi_22_/2012-06-27_15-27-36_662.jpg
What do you guys think? would it effect any thing? its carved pretty deep and looks like it might crack after break in or certain mileage. I already called them but the guy that took my order isn't there today. i will call him tomorrow for new replacements.

[cygnus x-1]

It does look bad but I don't think it would cause any problems. How many are like that?

C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

It does look bad but I don't think it would cause any problems. How many are like that?

C|

2 of them

[ShyBoyCA6]

Called the guy up and he said they dont keep track on the inventory and seNd them out as is but will replace them. So i ask if the piston will work like it should without problem and yes it should. So thats good enough for me so the block will be going to the shop to get worked on. Mean while ill be buying the gaskets and bearings.

[AccordEpicenter]

Shouldnt be a problem but I like to sand down the rough edges on piston crowns specifically around the valve reliefs. I do it by hand with like 400-500 grit just to eliminate hot spots and stress risers. If this is not gonna be a performance build I wouldnt worry about it or the PJO or arrow marks. Also, the fit of the bearing is more critical than the brand. Any reputable bearing company will be fine. Remember when the oil pressure is good then the engine parts ride on a film of oil, not the bearing directly, so I wouldnt sweat it, as long as they fit within tolerance.

[elpuma]

any updates??

[ShyBoyCA6]

Sorry no updates at the time. But will have some soon.

[ShyBoyCA6]

i wont't be going down this route for now cause my mom (yes mom) is helping me to get the car running. so im limited to $500 or so on getting it fixed. i already ordered everything for the bottom end and will be installing everything myself. Engine block and head will be in the shop getting cleaned and inspected. only thing im not doing is the head ill be leaving that to the shop to do.

But i do need help on sealant for the head gasket and intake manifold gasket...im not sure if sealant is required for the exhaust or not. maybe a thin layer.

Ok so my question is what sealant should i use or what do you use and highly recommend? I got permatex Ultra black for the oil pan gasket cause we used it before and was pleased that it didn't leak or anything. i seen some of you guys use some colored sealant like red or blue. any information would be great!

Im expecting my car to be done sometime next week and running like a champ that she is.

On the side note: I do have a Spare head i can mess around with ;) so don't worry about me losing interest on getting the build. block will be to spec but head will take awhile to get the power.

[gfrg88]

You're kidding, right?

[MessyHonda]

dont use any sealant.

[ShyBoyCA6]

yeah kinda... lol well i seen this indian looking bottle at autozone for 5 bucks it say to apply a thin layer. i just want to have a reliable engine with no oil leaks is all.

[rjudgey]

ACL do full bearings for A20 I have them in mine they have race ones too which I have in nothing else comes close to these in quality BTW!!

[ShyBoyCA6]

yeah i went with seal power not my cup of tea but whatever gets me a car by the weekend or the next. As for the motor its already at the shop getting worked on as we speak so when i get it back ill take a couple pictures of me installing parts and what not. oh almost forgot im gonna try the new motor mounts i got from chris to test fit them. Can't wait!!! :D