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firefighterwhite89
06-24-2011, 03:17 PM
The dizzy timing with the TD01N vacuum advance dizzy on the a20a3, is it in time when it's almost as far advanced as it'll go?

Rendon LX-i
06-24-2011, 04:34 PM
No. disconnect the dizzy advanced vacum lines and plug em. Once you do that run at opareating temp and should be at 15 degrees if not your out of time. if your way advanced your prolly off by a tooth or two. base timing is 15 degree. Your dizzy should be close to the center not clocked to one side or other. IF so your off timing.

Only should u do that if your want to advance base timing not CORRECT it.

86-lxi
06-24-2011, 05:23 PM
No. disconnect the dizzy advanced vacum lines and plug em. Once you do that run at opareating temp and should be at 15 degrees if not your out of time. if your way advanced your prolly off by a tooth or two. base timing is 15 degree. Your dizzy should be close to the center not clocked to one side or other. IF so your off timing.

Only should u do that if your want to advance base timing not CORRECT it.

That is incorrect, 15* BTDC is with vacuum lines hooked up, base timing is 4* BTDC with the lines plugged. I've messed with my timing till I was blue in the face believe me lol I finally got it dialed and getting around 27-28 mpg's mixed city and highway.

Rendon LX-i
06-24-2011, 05:38 PM
Lol if u say man. Don't correct me I've own this car since I was in 9th grade lol an I know what bAse timing is. U don't time with the vac limes connected. Lol you advancing if you do that. But I'm not here to argue I don't know nothing bout cars or I don't know nothing at all. I'm only going to PTI pursing a career in automotive trade lmfao.

K I'm out. Get a book or search or don't ask a common question . Here is a FAQ hurr.

Rendon LX-i
06-24-2011, 05:47 PM
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww290/Rendonlxi/c8f12795.jpg

I like to prove my facts an I like make a noob look stupid. U respect a OG son

Nuff said. Cause u just got pawned lmfao.

cygnus x-1
06-24-2011, 08:34 PM
I like to prove my facts an I like make a noob look stupid. U respect a OG son

Nuff said. Cause u just got pawned lmfao.


It is difficult to respect one who makes an ass of himself regardless of whether he is right or wrong.




Now, the following two pages were taken from a scan of the either the European or Canadian Honda service manuals. I don't have the US service manual for the Accord, but it will be essentially the same.


http://bluegreenlabs.com/Prelude/General/AccordIgnitionTiming1.jpg

http://bluegreenlabs.com/Prelude/General/AccordIgnitionTiming2.jpg




The procedure is actually somewhat confusing because in step 3 it tells you to disconnect the vacuum advance lines and check for vacuum, but then it doesn't specifically tell you to reconnect them. However, if you look at the picture for step 4 where you connect the "advance tester" it clearly shows the vacuum advance lines ARE connected. Step 9 is more clear though and specifies an advance of either 4* or 9* BTDC with the vacuum advance lines disconnected.

Because this is a non-US manual the engine codes are different, but the engines are basically the same. A20A2 is the non-US carbed engine and A20A4 is the non-US fuel injected engine. In the US, A20A1 is the carbed engine and A20A3 is the fuel injected engine.

I cross checked this procedure with my 2g Prelude (Honda) service manual and it is the same. For the Prelude A20A3 engine ('86-'87) the timing in step 5 above is 15* BTDC, and for step 9 above it is 4* BTDC. I can also post the two pages from my Prelude service manual if you like.


For giggles I also checked the timing adjustment procedures in the Chiltons and Haynes manuals. The Chiltons manual covers the '84-'95 Accord and Prelude (an odd range, but ok). It says that when the vacuum advance lines are disconnected the timing pointer should line up with the white mark, and when the vacuum advance lines are connected the pointer should line up with the red mark. The white mark is actually TDC, so this doesn't exactly agree with the Honda manual but it's close.

The Haynes manual I have covers the ('79-'89 Prelude). I don't have the Accord manual but the timing adjustment procedure looks to be word for word the same as what Rendon posted (the part he posted anyway). It says to disconnect the vacuum advance lines, but then doesn't give any actual numbers, instead just saying "The line on the flywheel will appear stationary and be aligned with the pointer if the timing is correct." It doesn't say which line though, red or white. There is also a note before the procedure that says to check the VECI label (which is under the hood) and basically to do whatever it says to do. So it looks to me like the procedure in the Haynes manual is just a sort of general procedure that they put in all their manuals. What's also interesting is that the pictures (line drawings actually, not real pictures) show the timing being adjusted with the vacuum advance lines connected. So the procedure in the Haynes manual is not all that helpful.



And finally to answer the original question, it is unlikely that the ignition timing is correct if the distributor is turned almost all the way in either direction. It should probably be somewhere closer to the middle, but to really know for sure you need to check with a timing light. You can check it with the vacuum advance lines connected or disconnected, as long as you use the correct numbers for how you do it.


C|

Rendon LX-i
06-24-2011, 09:38 PM
I was taught in school to disconnect the vac lines. THat was in 2000 an, I always followed that. I know i didnt make a fool of myself because i followed the book. EVEN in all vac adavance system you suppose to do that.

Also in every Electronic Advance systems you suppose to jump the service port to Disable the unit from doing that. I wouldnt make a fool of myself if i didnt know bro. AN my instructor told me also. I went back and look in my book to correct my self.

SO THATS why i went ahead and made my point. EVEN thou it dont say thats what is suppose to be done regradless. ALL SYSTEMs with Electronic or vac. YOu have to disable the UNIT in order to get base timing. I just passed last qt. which what we went over. NO need to make dumass of myself.

But i like how you agreed with me. Dizzy needs to be in the middle. IF its not your off timing. if its on the opposite side either or. Your off time. YOU only do that to adanance or retard timing. NO correct it.

LOL i had a bit much to drink. So dont mind me. Point beening i know what has to be done. and i know im right. IF i wasnt right i wouldnt of passed the exams or qt. That or i wouldnt of passed the Lab test i had to preform in front of the instructor.

BUT NO desrepect to you cygnus. I just had to prove a point.

THe problem with my manuel. it says to go to this chapter and look at this chapter and what no. SO point beening jumps around. Makes you look threw a bunch of shit to get one awnser. SO for base timing gives you one fig. then tells you to jump to another chap. to tell you the rest. IDK LOL.

but my bad.

cygnus x-1
06-25-2011, 09:40 AM
It's cool man, I figured you had been drinking. :beer: And for the record, what bothered me wasn't anything about setting the timing, it was the part about making newbies look stupid. That's just not cool. Anyway, there's no point in dwelling (bad puns acknowledged) on this so lets forget it and move on .


As far as setting ignition timing, it IS good practice to disconnect/disable the vacuum advance before checking it. Reason being, if the vacuum advance is malfunctioning, and you set the timing with it enabled, you'll end up setting the base timing incorrectly. Really then, it should be checked both ways so you know that the base timing is correct, and that the vacuum advance is working properly.

Incidentally I actually thought the base timing was 0*, but according to the factory manuals it's 4*. And from my own experience tuning timing I would say you can advance it even more. These engines really like a lot of advance and are quite resistant to detonation, with their large hemispherical type combustion chambers (similar to the old Dodge Hemis, that also liked a lot of advance.)


So have we flogged this one enough yet? :deadhorse: :lol:


C|

Rendon LX-i
06-25-2011, 12:27 PM
Lol. I noticed all hondas have a 15 degrees base timing. Its wierd. I just timed a obd2 jdm h23 swapped lude. It has the obd2 port but gives you the 2 wire port to disable the advance unit in the dizzy.

On the newbie part I had to do it. Gotta break em in. I remember when i got flamed for everthing I asked I'm like wtf . That was in the noob days.

86-lxi
06-25-2011, 12:41 PM
I'm a newbie for posting correct info? Now that's funny. I was merely correcting the part where you said it should be 15 btdc with the lines plugged and that is WRONG. Take that personally if you like I'm just stating facts. Take it easy.

2oodoor
06-25-2011, 01:37 PM
hopefully now we have a good thread that will come up on a search for "timing"

It can be confusing even when you have a stack of manuals in front of you, point proven.

Hondas are just off routine technique and procedure from other vehicles when it comes to ignition timing checks so that said, passing auto shop class has nothing to do with this really.

Nothing is more educational than entertaining instruction, which is the beauty of car forums.

When it comes to modified engines though, the book specs are just not always the best one to go with lol but it may be safer for a starting point.

89T
06-25-2011, 03:50 PM
No. disconnect the dizzy advanced vacuum lines and plug em. Once you do that run at operating temp and should be at 15 degrees if not your out of time. if your way advanced your prolly off by a tooth or two. base timing is 15 degree. Your dizzy should be close to the center not clocked to one side or other. IF so your off timing.

Only should u do that if your want to advance base timing not CORRECT it.


That is incorrect, 15* BTDC is with vacuum lines hooked up, base timing is 4* BTDC with the lines plugged. I've messed with my timing till I was blue in the face believe me lol I finally got it dialed and getting around 27-28 mpg's mixed city and highway.

correct me if I am wrong.
1989 lxi
The tag under my hood calls out for 12*base +-2 BTDC . The 4*BTDC is going to be on a non lxi / sei model.

So unplug the vacuum lines and stuff a plug / screw in the open lines and time it.

86-lxi
06-25-2011, 07:11 PM
Not sure on that but i'd say 12 +-2 degrees is with VA lines connected, under my hood it shows 15 BTDC +- 2 degrees, manual says 4 BTDC with lines plugged. I've set my base timing and it wasn't perfectly timed for me as I am going for maximum mpg's. My car right now is set at 14 BTDC and that is perfect for MY car.

Base timing is just to ballpark it, when you set your timing the lines should be connected otherwise there is no way of knowing if you are within 2 degrees +- of 15 or whatever it says under your hood.

Rendon LX-i
06-25-2011, 07:51 PM
hopefully now we have a good thread that will come up on a search for "timing"

It can be confusing even when you have a stack of manuals in front of you, point proven.

Hondas are just off routine technique and procedure from other vehicles when it comes to ignition timing checks so that said, passing auto shop class has nothing to do with this really.

Nothing is more educational than entertaining instruction, which is the beauty of car forums.

When it comes to modified engines though, the book specs are just not always the best one to go with lol but it may be safer for a starting point.

I just started skool but Ive been timing hondas for awhile now an that's how I always done em. An yes going to auto skool means something cause your getting taught hands on. The book can say alot but hands on can tell you more. That's why I'm paying a shit load of money. Skool or no skool I was taught my tuner an high skool auto class instructor back in 03.

Lol but im good i had my saying an if no one agrees then figure the shit out your self. I take what ever help I can get an try it not say NO thats incorrect. But that's me.

correct me if I am wrong.
1989 lxi
The tag under my hood calls out for 12*base +-2 BTDC . The 4*BTDC is going to be on a non lxi / sei model.

So unplug the vacuum lines and stuff a plug / screw in the open lines and time it.

See even other vet agrees. :eek:

89T
06-25-2011, 08:31 PM
Not sure on that but I'd say 12 +-2 degrees is with VA lines connected, under my hood it shows 15 BTDC +- 2 degrees, manual says 4 BTDC with lines plugged. I've set my base timing and it wasn't perfectly timed for me as I am going for maximum mpg's. My car right now is set at 14 BTDC and that is perfect for MY car.

"Base timing is just to ballpark it." Let me tell my $400 engine management system (and I really can) that has a original Honda base tune know that you know better than original Honda specs..

86-lxi
06-25-2011, 08:50 PM
Well what happens when your timing is way off (as in when the VA is connected)AFTER you set the base timing? Lets say it's at 10 btdc where it should be within 2 degrees +- of 15, you're base timing doesn't mean shit now because either you have a problem with the VA or you need to advance the timing more. It doesn't say anywhere that there is a specific range that the base timing can fall in IT IS 4* BTDC then depending on how your car operates you may need to adjust it once you hook up the lines again.

To me that makes sense I don't need a $400 piece of equipment to tell me that.

Rendon LX-i
06-25-2011, 10:11 PM
Lol . Let it rip Jerry.........

Dr_Snooz
06-26-2011, 06:12 PM
hopefully now we have a good thread that will come up on a search for "timing"


LOL. Yeah. This thread is really clearing up the confusion. :Owned:

The timing procedure in the 1989 USDM Honda FSM describes extensive checks of entire timing control system. The process includes tests with the vacuum lines both connected and disconnected. Base timing with the lines removed and plugged is 4*. Unfortunately, the manual never says what the 4* mark on the flywheel looks like. It's a pretty useless measure without that information. Timing with the lines connected is 15* for my A20A3 California smog spec LX-i. When I check my timing, I leave the vacuum lines on and set it to 15*. For other 3g's, the timing spec with the lines connected seems to vary widely depending on the engine type, option package, country/state where sold, AT v. MT, FI v. carb, etc. It ranges from 10*+-2 to 24*+-2. Base timing for all A20s looks to be 4* consistently.

With all due respect to the shade tree guys and the technical institutes and the Mitchell manuals and all that, I believe the factory service manual is the final word on these kinds of questions. If you don't believe me, just start asking around at small local shops if they work on German cars. You won't have to look long before one of them has a horror story about how they did a repair according to their books, or standard practice or whatever and then got to pay the dealer to replace a transmission or an ECU or whatever at an astronomically high price. Bottom line: do what the FSM says. If you don't have one, two are available for download here (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25137).

And please, be kind to the newbs. Everyone is a newb at some point, but not every newb is ignorant. I had worked on 3g's for 15 years before I joined this board. I had worked on Accords for nearly 30. Every fifth thread on here laments that the OGs are leaving and if their last act before they go is to chase off the newbs, we'll be in a real fix.

:)

cygnus x-1
06-27-2011, 11:26 AM
Base timing with the lines removed and plugged is 4*. Unfortunately, the manual never says what the 4* mark on the flywheel looks like. It's a pretty useless measure without that information.

I don't think there is a 4* mark, at least I don't recall ever seeing one. There is a TDC (white) mark and another mark (red) for whatever your normal running idle timing should be. That's why I always though the base timing was really 0*.



Timing with the lines connected is 15* for my A20A3 California smog spec LX-i. When I check my timing, I leave the vacuum lines on and set it to 15*. For other 3g's, the timing spec with the lines connected seems to vary widely depending on the engine type, option package, country/state where sold, AT v. MT, FI v. carb, etc. It ranges from 10*+-2 to 24*+-2. Base timing for all A20s looks to be 4* consistently.


I was just out at the junkyard on Saturday and happened to look at some other Hondas. The newer ones all seem to specify (on the under hood label) something close to 15*. But I know my A18 was 22*, so it does vary.


Here's a question. When you connect the vacuum advance, how much advance does it add with the engine at idle? Then if you set the base timing to 15*, what will the final timing advance be at idle with the vac advance connected?


C|

TotaledTL
06-27-2011, 12:07 PM
Summary, for carbed cars:

Base timing is 4* (NO vac. connected to distrib.);

With vac. line connected to full time (man.) vac., not carbed vac].- 15* advanced, at idle. Cold start vac. line disconnected.

It seems the confusion arises because Honda specifies vac. advance AT IDLE, correct? Otherwise they would not specify that a line be connected to the distrib. to achieve the 15* advance. Then throw in the cold start vac. & there's lots of room for error.

That's how I see it. Please correct if wrong-


How much does the cetrif. advance add?

Dr_Snooz
06-27-2011, 07:14 PM
I don't think there is a 4* mark, at least I don't recall ever seeing one. There is a TDC (white) mark and another mark (red) for whatever your normal running idle timing should be. That's why I always though the base timing was really 0*.

On my AT drive plate there was a green circle. I *think* that was the 4* mark. I haven't seen the equivalent on an MT flywheel. My flywheel is aftermarket and came with no marks, so I don't know.


Here's a question. When you connect the vacuum advance, how much advance does it add with the engine at idle? Then if you set the base timing to 15*, what will the final timing advance be at idle with the vac advance connected?


C|

Well on mine, base timing (lines disconnected) should be 4* and advanced timing should be 15* (lines connected), so I guess it adds 11*. But that varies depending on the engine (A20A2, 3, 4). The '86 Russian manual that's available here for download has a chart (p. 24-5, point 8) that lists all the advances you should get from different engines. It ranges from 6-10*. It also has a chart for the advanced timing of all the different engines, MT v. AT, in gear, not in gear (p. 24-4). I tried reading through it, but it gave me a mighty headache. That's why I say, just leave the lines connected and set the advanced timing to 15* or whatever is right for your engine, smog laws, etc. The other reason not to try to set the base timing is that you'll probably find that when you set the base timing, the advanced timing go wrong and vice versa. That's because there is probably something wrong with the advance mechanism, or your dizzie or the ignition control solenoid valve in the black box. I tried going through the entire timing procedure in my '89 manual (all 4 pages) a few years ago and basically everything I checked was out of spec. It was pointless. I thought, "nuts to this," set the advanced timing to 15* and forgot about it.

Demon1024
06-29-2011, 10:02 PM
The positiion of the dizzy has absolutly no matter. Back / forward / middle
if you get the belt one tooth of either way it could still run with the dizzy move to one extreme or the other. Not to mention cam gears or stretched old belts.

Check your valve timing before you do the ign timing. Line the flywheel mark at 0 and look under the top timing belt cover to make sure the marks on the cam line up the the head.
Properly adjusting tension on your timing belt may help 2.
But as others said check your cap and spark plugs for gap

Buzo
12-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I was searching for timing help and found this thread.

Its clear for me now what the 4* is and how to check it without the vacuum lines connected.

But the 15* thing... The manual says something about checking it while in gear in case of an auto. Is that right?

marvis
12-29-2011, 03:06 AM
................

-$MOKIN-
01-05-2012, 07:13 PM
do you guys think that my ignition timing being off could give me a idle serge?

DBMaster
01-06-2012, 07:14 AM
Here is my two cents, for what it's worth. My timing tab has a white paint mark and a red paint mark. I line up the pointer with the white mark with the vac lines disconnected and clamped shut. Then, when I reconnect them I make sure that the pointer lines up with the red mark. PERIOD, THAT'S IT. The white mark lines up with TDC and the red mark is 15 degrees BTDC. I do know that there are different timing specs for California cars.

When I have done the timing belt I followed my own rules. I rotate the engine by hand to line up the cam gear at TDC ("UP" stamp pointing straight up). Then, when the belt is off I line up the crank so the timing pointing is dead on the "T" mark, or the white paint mark on my engine. Then, when the new belt goes on everything is peachy.

marvis
03-18-2012, 04:45 PM
This is really stating to piss me off..

I have done my idle correctly, car is warm, Vac connected and it's nowhere near the ~15* mark, I can see TDC but I will need to rev it to see the timing marks..

This is on an A20A4 converted to manual.

WTF?

cygnus x-1
03-18-2012, 10:24 PM
This is really stating to piss me off..

I have done my idle correctly, car is warm, Vac connected and it's nowhere near the ~15* mark, I can see TDC but I will need to rev it to see the timing marks..

This is on an A20A4 converted to manual.

WTF?

Does the TDC mark move when the vacuum advance is connected or disconnected? If not then the vacuum advance diaphragm is toast. The timing belt could also be off a tooth. Set the crank at TDC and make sure the cam pulley lines up as follows.


http://bluegreenlabs.com/Prelude/General/CamTiming.jpg


C|

marvis
03-18-2012, 11:15 PM
I will need to check to see if it does move, I just replaced my vac advance as it broke off.. Pretty sure it does.

I did the timing belt on it recently, It was previously out a tooth, but now won't rev over 5k.. Where it would sit on limiter all day before..

kentwat
03-19-2012, 06:48 PM
Here is my two cents, for what it's worth. My timing tab has a white paint mark and a red paint mark. I line up the pointer with the white mark with the vac lines disconnected and clamped shut. Then, when I reconnect them I make sure that the pointer lines up with the red mark. PERIOD, THAT'S IT. The white mark lines up with TDC and the red mark is 15 degrees BTDC. I do know that there are different timing specs for California cars.

When I have done the timing belt I followed my own rules. I rotate the engine by hand to line up the cam gear at TDC ("UP" stamp pointing straight up). Then, when the belt is off I line up the crank so the timing pointing is dead on the "T" mark, or the white paint mark on my engine. Then, when the new belt goes on everything is peachy.

This is how I did mine. Mine has the factory flywheel so I know the marks are correct. Mine is fuel injected.

Marvis how did it run after you changed the belt? Because you say you changed the belt and vacuum advance. Just needing more info to try and isolate problem. Do you have the factory flywheel? Just searching for info. Also did you verify the 2 vacuum lines aren't swapped?

marvis
03-20-2012, 03:59 PM
I checked the vacuum lines, they are correct. It ran better after the belt swap, but wouldn't rev over 4.5/5k. Nothing changed when I swapped vacuum advance.

It's a stock flywheel.

cygnus x-1
03-21-2012, 09:07 AM
I checked the vacuum lines, they are correct.

OK.



It ran better after the belt swap, but wouldn't rev over 4.5/5k.

That indicates something is not right.



Nothing changed when I swapped vacuum advance.

Ok, so you put on a new diaphragm and it's the same. Therefore something else is wrong.

Did you check to make sure the timing belt is aligned properly? I know you said you replaced it already but you need to check again to make sure it's right. It's very easy to install it 1 tooth off. It happens all the time and produces symptoms very much like what you're describing.

C|

marvis
03-21-2012, 06:53 PM
I made sure it was on correctly, but I will check again.

I have a carb flywheel on an EFI engine, would this pose a problem?

Thanks,

cygnus x-1
03-22-2012, 08:20 AM
I made sure it was on correctly, but I will check again.

I have a carb flywheel on an EFI engine, would this pose a problem?

Thanks,


Nope, you just need to adjust the timing with the vac advance disconnected. Line it up to the white mark on the flywheel. Then when you re-connect the vac advance the timing will advance. You will probably see the red mark but it won't line up exactly because the carb engines use a little more timing advance, and have the red mark in a different spot.


C|

marvis
03-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Isn't the white mark TDC?

Thanks,

cygnus x-1
03-22-2012, 07:48 PM
Isn't the white mark TDC?

Thanks,


Yep. But you can only line up to the white mark when the vacuum advance is *disconnected*. With the vacuum advance *connected* the red mark will almost line up but not quite, since you're using a carb flywheel with an EFI vacuum advance diaphragm.

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marvis
03-26-2012, 12:04 AM
I am an idiot.

I checked the vacuum line and it had some silicone in it, blocking it.. I installed a new vacuum line and set the timing to 17 BTDC with it connected. Runs awesome now..