brake pedal

[Warren 88 Accord]

how can i get a stiffer brake pedal it doesnt feel like its mushy or spongey but i got used to my truck and its much stiffer

[89HatchbackLxi]

I know what you mean...

I have to switch between driving an 89 accord and an 07 accord. The difference in brakes is the most annoying part of driving two different vehicles. One stops instantly with almost no pressure on the brake, the other needs to be pushed halfway down before the car even starts to slow.

[itzdave]

stainless brake lines might help...

[DBMaster]

What kind of brake pads/shoes are you using? The first time I replaced my pads and shoes with low dollar Raybestos stuff from Pep Boys (this was in 1992) I noticed the pedal softening quite a bit. Now that I run $60 ceramic pads up front and genuine Honda shoes in the back I don't have that issue. Of course, it could be other things, too.

[cygnus x-1]

how can i get a stiffer brake pedal it doesnt feel like its mushy or spongey but i got used to my truck and its much stiffer


You could try disconnecting the brake booster. That will make it much stiffer. A harder pad compound would also help.


C|

[Warren 88 Accord]

well i was wondering about the rear drum brakes maybe they are not adjusted proberly? and im using mid grade napa pads and rotors

[lostforawhile]

don't disconnect the booster, that will increase your braking distance significantly, I looked it up in the book, and the difference is something like 150 feet extra stopping distance. the best thing you can do, is make sure your brakes are adjusted right, is the master cylinder leaking in any way, how worn are the pads? the shoes? are the lines leaking? when is the last time the brakes were bled? check for leakage around the rear pistons and the brake calipers in front, the rears leak all the time, this allows air into the system, they are so cheap, they are easier to replace,

[Warren 88 Accord]

yeah i dont feel like disconecting my booster but all the lines are fine the pads are new no leaks on the wheel cylinder and how do you adjust the rear brakes tho i id it a few years back on my 79 toyota but i forgot how

[Dr_Snooz]

I would say swap to rear discs, but my pedal is softer since I swapped.

[2oodoor]

how can i get a stiffer brake pedal it doesnt feel like its mushy or spongey but i got used to my truck and its much stiffer

i know what you mean, these cars do have a heavy feel to the braking, nothing at all like a newer even mid 90s Honda.
Do a complete brake fluid flush and a fresh MC, machine the rear drums and replace return springs along with some good shoes. Spend some time adjusting those couldnt hurt then heh.
Those stainless flex lines for the front too like itzDave said.

[Ichiban]

You people are seriously bitching about honda braking? Ever driven a '70's or '80's GM pickup? That is a seriously mushy pedal. Try a shortbox toyota hilux with the LSPV removed and no weight in the back...the rear drums lock in an instant, and you're spinning before the discs start to even apply.

Sure they're not the best, but they're not that bad unless somethings failed. Adjusting the drums will help a bit, normally they should be automatically adjusting, but if not, there's some star wheel bullshit that somebody that actually has a 3rd gen should explain. Honda loves to constantly change things and my 2g brakes are somewhat different I'm sure.

[lostforawhile]

yeah i dont feel like disconecting my booster but all the lines are fine the pads are new no leaks on the wheel cylinder and how do you adjust the rear brakes tho i id it a few years back on my 79 toyota but i forgot how

how long has it been since they were bled? air eventually gets in the system over time, and bleed diagonally,left front,right rear, eg, every few years you should do this to flush the fluid anyway,

[Warren 88 Accord]

alright when i get my check i have a few things to do ill get the rear breaks replaced flush the brake system and does anyone know if there is a master cylender with a larger bore diameter i can use if not im going to make a hydroboost unit

[lostforawhile]

alright when i get my check i have a few things to do ill get the rear breaks replaced flush the brake system and does anyone know if there is a master cylender with a larger bore diameter i can use if not im going to make a hydroboost unit

it's perfectly possible to lock the brakes on this car if they are working right, once you do that you've already lost traction, and anything past that point is worthless, the main reason to go to bigger brakes is for bigger rotors which can handle more heat without fade.

[cygnus x-1]

alright when i get my check i have a few things to do ill get the rear breaks replaced flush the brake system and does anyone know if there is a master cylender with a larger bore diameter i can use if not im going to make a hydroboost unit


First I'm going to assume everything checks out ok in terms of adjustment, fluids, etc.. If not then I would fix those things first.

If you really do want a stiffer pedal, then you could do the following things. Pads with a lower coefficient of friction will require more pedal force to create the same stopping force. Usually aftermarket/racing pads have a higher coefficient of friction than OEM so I'm not sure what you would want to use.

If you have a DX/LX or an '86-'87 LXi you could maybe try swapping the master cylinder out for an '88-'89 LXi MC. The newer LXi MCs have a 15/16" bore instead of 7/8". I don't know if the brake lines would match up exactly but it should bolt up the same.

Replacing the rubber lines with braided stainless lines might help but I don't think you'll notice much difference.

I wasn't really serious about disconnecting the booster but it would make the pedal stiffer. And for the record, it will NOT decrease the car's stopping distance, provided you can press the pedal hard enough. The booster only provides assist, so if you have legs like Popeye you could live without the power assist. It will be REALLY stiff though as the pedal ratio isn't intended for manual operation.


Ultimately I think your best bet is to go over the entire brake system to make sure everything is ok. Then try playing with different pad compounds to change the feel.

A hydraulic boost would be interesting but I don't see how it would be different than vaccum boost. If you're really nuts (like myself) you could do a booster delete and re-engineer the brake system to be completely manual, but it's a crap ton of work to do it right.


C|

[itzdave]

^wut he sed^

[Oldblueaccord]

well i was wondering about the rear drum brakes maybe they are not adjusted proberly? and im using mid grade napa pads and rotors

Most likely there not. if your e brake does not hold the car on flat ground the rear brakes need to be adjusted. The shoes should just touch the drum enough so you can slide the drum on. This adjustment dictates the brake pedal feel.


wp

[Warren 88 Accord]

my e brake works fine especially since my driveway is steep and i have an 88 lxi so i have the larger master cylinder

[lostforawhile]

my e brake works fine especially since my driveway is steep and i have an 88 lxi so i have the larger master cylinder

Um you really don' t understand brakes do you?

[Warren 88 Accord]

not the drum breaks but the disk yes

[lostforawhile]

not the drum breaks but the disk yes
the emergency brake is mechanical no matter if they are disk or drum

[Warren 88 Accord]

ok i understand that it is a cable connected to a lever that spreads the rear shoes to the drum or sqweezes the pads to the rotor

[DBMaster]

I cannot personally speak to the whole brake hose issue. I mentioned it to my Honda mechanic last year and he said that even the "all rubber" hoses were lined so stainless steel braid covered hoses may look better but may not provide improved performance, unless yours are leaking. I put up with the soft pedal for years and the most significant improvement happened with using Honda OEM shoes and new drum brake hardware. The most improvement I noticed from the ceramic pads up front was reduced brake dust and, since the dust color is lighter, less ugliness on the front wheels between car washings. I can't say that the stopping distance is shorter. There is definitely no brake noise, thus the Raybestos product name, "Quiet Stop."

[MessyHonda]

I cannot personally speak to the whole brake hose issue. I mentioned it to my Honda mechanic last year and he said that even the "all rubber" hoses were lined so stainless steel braid covered hoses may look better but may not provide improved performance, unless yours are leaking. I put up with the soft pedal for years and the most significant improvement happened with using Honda OEM shoes and new drum brake hardware. The most improvement I noticed from the ceramic pads up front was reduced brake dust and, since the dust color is lighter, less ugliness on the front wheels between car washings. I can't say that the stopping distance is shorter. There is definitely no brake noise, thus the Raybestos product name, "Quiet Stop."


I have invested alot of time and money on my break set up. the best thing to do is to try different pads. also flush your oil. I use Napa DOT 5.1 with my breaks and I love it. its the best brakes I ever stopped on.

[DBMaster]

Is DOT 5 silicone fluid? If so, what procedure did you use to flush out all the old glycol based fluid?

[2drSE-i]

Have you bled your brakes recently? A lot of mush can be created with air. Also, if your brake booster has been replaced, ever, then you have an adjustment nut for the pedal. Adjusting it will help take up a lot of pedal travel, not so much helping the mush feeling, but it will help.

I drove it for a week maybe without the brake booster, and I'm not a weak guy, but I COULD NOT stop the car as fast without the vacuum assist. It takes some pedal mashing, for sure. If anyone were thinking of doing a booster delete, I would suggest a very large master cylinder.

[2drSE-i]

Have you bled your brakes recently? A lot of mush can be created with air. Also, if your brake booster has been replaced, ever, then you have an adjustment nut for the pedal. Adjusting it will help take up a lot of pedal travel, not so much helping the mush feeling, but it will help.

I drove it for a week maybe without the brake booster, and I'm not a weak guy, but I COULD NOT stop the car as fast without the vacuum assist. It takes some pedal mashing, for sure. If anyone were thinking of doing a booster delete, I would suggest a very large master cylinder.

[Dr_Snooz]

What pad composition would prevent cementite build up and the dreaded front brake wobble at high speed? I've never owned a Honda that didn't do that. Bedding helps, but doesn't eliminate it. I think the OE spec pad composition is just too soft.

I agree with Ichi and Cygnus, by the way. If you're dissatisfied with Honda brakes, something is wrong with them. Get them fixed and you will be more than pleased. The feel, responsiveness and predictability of the factory set up is vastly superior to most other cars.

[DBMaster]

Wobble? You mean pedal pulsation, right? Mine started doing that, out of the blue, a number of years ago. I resolved it with the Brake-Tru on-car resurfacing kit. It was low-tech and very effective, but it is no longer made or available. I replaced my rotors at the last pad change because they had finally gotten down to less than 0.75" thickness. Within a few thousand miles the wobble was back. My only choice was to have the rotors resurfaced at a shop (NTB). It's been fine for several thousand miles now so I'm hoping. My mechanic told me that it may continue to return because the uneven rotor wear may be caused by lateral movement of the front wheel bearings even though they still feel good and tight.

[2oodoor]

...brake threads, gotta luv em

I believe wobble and pulsation are two different symptoms. You can have one without the other.
When I usually feel road speed wobble it's with rear discs but I can understand it could be with a rotor set on any axle.

I would first suspect contamination, one being tire shine products.

Also regarding brake (feel) I could feel two very distintive envioronments between any of the 3rd gen I've had and the 94 Civic I had or any I've driven.

Not that one is better than the other but the Civic definatley had a really light feel but powerfull low speed stopping. I think the booster and MC are different "specs "for lack of a better word.

[Warren 88 Accord]

my pedal doesnt feel like its pulsing even under harsh braking conditions there is no wobel even up to 100 mph but it just feels like i have to push down a long way before it starts to slow me down but i stil have a alot of travel left

[lostforawhile]

Have you bled your brakes recently? A lot of mush can be created with air. Also, if your brake booster has been replaced, ever, then you have an adjustment nut for the pedal. Adjusting it will help take up a lot of pedal travel, not so much helping the mush feeling, but it will help.

I drove it for a week maybe without the brake booster, and I'm not a weak guy, but I COULD NOT stop the car as fast without the vacuum assist. It takes some pedal mashing, for sure. If anyone were thinking of doing a booster delete, I would suggest a very large master cylinder.the book shows an increase of over 150 feet with a failed power booster, the adjustment nut on the back of the booster has nothing to do with the pedal, it's to set the pushrod length right on the booster, if this isn't set right, the rear compensating ports in the MC will be blocked.

[lostforawhile]

Wobble? You mean pedal pulsation, right? Mine started doing that, out of the blue, a number of years ago. I resolved it with the Brake-Tru on-car resurfacing kit. It was low-tech and very effective, but it is no longer made or available. I replaced my rotors at the last pad change because they had finally gotten down to less than 0.75" thickness. Within a few thousand miles the wobble was back. My only choice was to have the rotors resurfaced at a shop (NTB). It's been fine for several thousand miles now so I'm hoping. My mechanic told me that it may continue to return because the uneven rotor wear may be caused by lateral movement of the front wheel bearings even though they still feel good and tight.

you can get brembo rotors for this car, even Honda uses them stock now, there really is a difference, it's all in the metallurgy of the rotor, a lot of big box store rotors are chinese and made of inferior metal.

[2drSE-i]

the book shows an increase of over 150 feet with a failed power booster, the adjustment nut on the back of the booster has nothing to do with the pedal, it's to set the pushrod length right on the booster, if this isn't set right, the rear compensating ports in the MC will be blocked.

I'd believe it, I couldn't stop the thing, which is why I parked it until I could buy a booster lol. Pushrod length adjusts the "throw" of the pedal, if you will. Too short, and yes, it blocks the master cylinder and it won't last very long before the brakes completely lock up. Too long, and you get a TON of brake pedal travel before you get brakes. Been there :)

[lostforawhile]

I'd believe it, I couldn't stop the thing, which is why I parked it until I could buy a booster lol. Pushrod length adjusts the "throw" of the pedal, if you will. Too short, and yes, it blocks the master cylinder and it won't last very long before the brakes completely lock up. Too long, and you get a TON of brake pedal travel before you get brakes. Been there :)

there is specified gap between the pushrod out of the booster and the rear piston of the master cyl, you can actually use clay or playdough to make an impression and measure it

[2drSE-i]

there is specified gap between the pushrod out of the booster and the rear piston of the master cyl, you can actually use clay or playdough to make an impression and measure it

Clay worked great, Couldn't have told me that before try three though ;)

[cygnus x-1]

Is DOT 5 silicone fluid? If so, what procedure did you use to flush out all the old glycol based fluid?


DOT5 is the silicone stuff and is not compatible with regular glycol based fluid. DOT5.1 is glycol based and looks to have about the same specs as the silicone stuff.




What pad composition would prevent cementite build up and the dreaded front brake wobble at high speed? I've never owned a Honda that didn't do that. Bedding helps, but doesn't eliminate it. I think the OE spec pad composition is just too soft.


There is a good article on the Stoptech website that talks about this.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml




my pedal doesnt feel like its pulsing even under harsh braking conditions there is no wobel even up to 100 mph but it just feels like i have to push down a long way before it starts
to slow me down but i stil have a alot of travel left


So the problem is travel, not stiffness? That's totally different. If the pedal just feels too low, it's a good bet your drums need service. The shoes are supposed to be self adjusting, to compensate for wear, but the mechanism can seize up over time and stop working. The shoes wear very slowly so it can a long time to notice that anything is wrong. The fix might be as simple as blasting the adjustment mecanism with brake cleaner and working it around to loosen it up. Check the service manual for adjustment/overhaul procedures (there should be a link to the PDF service manual in the FAQ sticky thread).





the book shows an increase of over 150 feet with a failed power booster, the adjustment nut on the back of the booster has nothing to do with the pedal, it's to set the pushrod length right on the booster, if this isn't set right, the rear compensating ports in the MC will be blocked.

What book? I don't see anything like that in the service manual.

But for sure, the stock system is not so great without the booster. Last fall when I was working on my ITBs, they would occasionally not close completely, causing a really high idle and low vacuum condition. When this happened the brake pedal would require significantly more force than usual. If you weren't expecting it, it was seriously annoying.





I drove it for a week maybe without the brake booster, and I'm not a weak guy, but I COULD NOT stop the car as fast without the vacuum assist. It takes some pedal mashing, for sure. If anyone were thinking of doing a booster delete, I would suggest a very large master cylinder.


Yeah, you would need to really wail on the pedal.

As far as a booster delete, you would actually need a *smaller* master cylinder to increase braking force. But it's really not that simple. The master cylinder size is dictated by the volume of fluid required by the calipers. The larger the caliper piston size, the more fluid they need, and the larger the master cylinder needs to be. A MC that's too small won't push enough fluid volume and will bottom out before you get to maximum pressure. A MC cylinder that's too big will push enough fluid volume but will take more force to create the same caliper force than a smaller cylinder would. So what you want is a MC that is just big enough to supply the required fluid volume to the calipers, plus a little more for safety.

Once the MC size is set, you use the pedal ratio to determine the pedal force required for stopping. A longer pedal needs less force (from your foot) but uses more travel, where a shorter pedal uses less travel but also creates less force. For manual brake systems the pedal ratio is something like 6:1, whereas for a power brake system it's more like 4:1. The ratio on my Prelude is 4.5:1, which is not good for a manual system.


So in order to do a proper booster delete you need to make up for the lost assist in some way. I'm doing this by first upgrading to larger calipers (more clamping force) and rotors (more leverage) so that it takes less brake line pressure to create the same stopping force. The MC is then upsized to match the larger calipers, but no more. And finally the pedal ratio is increased for more leverage against the MC. To do that I made a pair of mounting plates that move the MC up closer to the brake pedal fulcrum point. The MC actuator rod will also attach to the pedal closer to the fulcrum point. The master cylinder will be changed to a 15/16" bore model from a 2g Integra. The calipers are from a 2g Integra (front) and 4g Accord (rear). The front rotors go from 9.4" to 11", and the rear rotors go from 9.4" to 10.3". The parts are sized so that the front rear bias is close to stock so there should be no need to change the proportioning valve.
At least that's the hope.


C|

[cygnus x-1]

[Double post due to forum software lameness]

[2ndGenGuy]

I was thinking something along the lines of adjustment of the rear brakes as well. I found out the 1g Accords were manual adjusting, and once I adjusted them, pedal feel was increased tons. Most of the slack was gone... And I know those auto adjusters have a tendency to not work all that well, so some manual intervention may have been required.

[2oodoor]

^^^ he said manual intervention required


woot

[cygnus x-1]

Oh, here's something easy thing you can try. The automatic adjuster only works if you occasionally use the brakes with the car moving backwards. If you never do any significant braking while in reverse, the pads may never adjust. Try driving short distances forwards and backwards, each time applying firm brake pressure to stop the car. It shouldn't take more than two or three tries to work.

If still no change then go for the "manual intervention".


C|

[lostforawhile]

there is a slot in the back of each drum backing plate, you stick a brake spoon in there and turn the pawl with it to adjust

[DBMaster]

you can get brembo rotors for this car, even Honda uses them stock now, there really is a difference, it's all in the metallurgy of the rotor, a lot of big box store rotors are chinese and made of inferior metal.


I have seen you recommend Beck Arnley parts before. The rotors I put on were Beck Arnley "premium" that I picked up as factory closeouts on Rock Auto. I bought them a year before I needed them because the price was so good ($12 each). I hope they turn out to be good, but if they develop pulsation again I will replace them with the Brembos.

[lostforawhile]

I have seen you recommend Beck Arnley parts before. The rotors I put on were Beck Arnley "premium" that I picked up as factory closeouts on Rock Auto. I bought them a year before I needed them because the price was so good ($12 each). I hope they turn out to be good, but if they develop pulsation again I will replace them with the Brembos.
i've had pretty good luck with Beck Arnley stuff in the past most of it seems to be a bit above the box store parts

[Ichiban]

If you are going to do a manual brake conversion, I recommend you do a full self-energizing drum conversion. This way, the entire system can be as pointless, backwards and stupid as possible. Besides, all those rear disk swap people are just throwing their drum brakes in the garbage, so it won't just be cheap, it could be free!!1