Transmission... Ideas and Planning...

[hondalude86]

Ok guys

I've got two 86-87 base model trans for a Dx Prelude.

Here are my goals...

-3rd gear sucks, it literally sucks so hard that it is embarrasing.
-LSD is going to be a nessacary thing if i decide to go boost, and is a great idea anyway
-Build all this in a dx case!!!

So here are some numbers courtesy of my searching!
(I'm going to list all the Speeds assuming i'm revving to 8K, not factory redline)

'85 Lude (carb):

1- 3.181 (45mph)
2- 1.944 (74mph)
3- 1.250 (115mph)
4- 0.933 (154mph)
5- 0.757 (190mph_ all with the 3.875 fd here)
FD 4.071 (86-87 carb FD is 3.875)

Si Lude:

1- 3.181
2- 1.842
3- 1.250
4- 0.937
5- 0.771
FD 4.066

88 LXi:

1- 3.181
2- 1.842
3- 1.208
4- 0.878
5- 0.694
FD 4.066 (including all autos)

carb manual FD is 3.866

And of course DA specs...

86-89 Integra
1st - 3.181 (42mph)
2nd - 1.944 (68mph)
3rd - 1.347 (98mph)
4th - 1.033 (128mph)
5th - 0.757 (175mph_ 4.214 fd with dx 5th gear...)
5th * 0.848 (156mph_4.214 fd with teggy 5th gear)
Final Drive - 4.214

(*EDIT* adding the speeds on the a18 gearing with the 4.615fd)
1- 3.181 (38mph)
2- 1.944 (62mph)
3- 1.250 (97mph)
4- 0.933 (130mph)
5- 0.757 (160mph)
FD 4.615

I'm thinking b16a diff (obx?), Lxi hubs (so i can go bigger with brakes later), Si axels... lets hear the debates!

(Here is a list of sites i've used to collect this to make it easier for anyone else who whats to play around with it...)

http://www.teammfactory.com/gear-calculator

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7387
(how to convert accord-integra gears...)

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165
(gear ratios listed for accord and prelude trans)

http://hondaswap.com/civic-crx-ew/engine-transmission-compatibility-1st-gen-crx-dx-106022/
(86-89 integra gear ratios)

Enjoy!

[cygnus x-1]

I've got two 86-87 base model trans for a Dx Prelude.

-3rd gear sucks, it literally sucks so hard that it is embarrasing.

Too low? You wouldn't be the first to notice this.



-LSD is going to be a nessacary thing if i decide to go boost, and is a great idea anyway

Definitely a good idea



-Build all this in a dx case!!!

I was always under the impression that you needed to use the larger A20 case, but I don't know why. Rich would know I think.





I'm thinking b16a diff (obx?),


Dave Gran has one from somewhere (not OBX or PG) I can't remember at the moment. I'll see if I can find it.



Lxi hubs (so i can go bigger with brakes later), Si axels... lets hear the debates!

3g knuckles + SI axles are bigger and therefore stronger, so probably better way to go. But I've made up some adapter plates to use 2g Integra calipers with 11" Corrado rotors on the DX knuckles, so it's not out of the question to upgrade the brakes on the DX knuckles.


So are you looking for taller gears or shorter? Shorter would be better for NA but taller is better for turbo.

Also, I believe there is some compatibility with '80s Civic gearboxes too, but I don't have any details.


C|

[rjudgey]

Gearbox time,

I quite like the DX gearbox would suit long sweeping circuit if you had a turbo attached later on but they are a little bit weaker than the later SI boxes.

Right to use the ZC/Teggy/Civic/CRX gears you need a A20 gearbox bellhousing, then you swap all the internals over job done, putting in a LSD at this stage is a great idea you have to shave a bit of ribbing off the inside of the bellhousing to clear the bolts on the LSD but it's easy peasy! Now strange thing is I'm pretty sure UK carbed ludes have the bigger and stronger axles but as all USDM ones seem to have different splines on the gearboxes and different axles and hubs I'd suggest going for SI uprights and axles and using the Teggy calipers and disks 260mm or possibly legend calipers and disks and have them redrilled to 4X100.

I've never done the gearbox I paid a very good contact off mine to rebuild with new seals, race spec bearings and new syncros for the Teggy box and to swap everything over keeping best bits of both gearbox's for mine. It's worked really well for a while and you must use Honda MTF anything else seems to really chew these things up quickly normally rebuild every 15-20k miles so far this one has done nearly 30k and still feels like new. Just wish I knew about the LSD trick before i had it done. I believe Dave uses Phantom grip but you'd be best to avoid those as they aren't as reliable and as good.

[hondalude86]

dave uses a viscous that was custom built (can't remember where but a very reliable company) for 600bucks. I'm thinking that a viscous just isn't going to be strong enough. I will agree that boost would be better on the taller trans, but I'm looking for shorter. MUCH shorter, the idea being that with the higher revs, i need a shorter box to be a similiar equivilent. Right now my B16 tranny is geared similiar to my base model tranny except for the 3rd gear is taller. My 3rd in my ys1 with the 3.80fd is in the 90-95mph range. But my 4th is in the 140 range, which is my crappy gear in that car... hahaha. Most road courses i can't imagine i'll be going much over 90 in most the parts of the course and on the straights much past 120, so realisiticly, the gear box would be great with the teg box 1-4. Fuel economy and the sake of my carbies, i want to retain the 5th gear, which is going to make the swap a tick bit more difficult because i'll have to take apart BOTH gear stacks in Both the boxes... But hey, at least its only one gear right? Also as far as the Dx vs Si box, from what i read, it was best to avoid the shorter box that was used in the 85 model (both the 83 and 84 aren't compatible with the motor; luv the es1/et1!). The 85 model trans is the one i have ON the motor right now. however, I do have the 2 86-87 Dx trans, that are different for sure, length wise. Something to do with the shift forks being shorter in the older cases being the issue with the new gear stacks. So realisticly, i have 3 dx trannies and no Si trannies.

The biggest reason for swapping the knuckles was to solve the axel issue more than anything Chris. I'd have to run dx outters and shafts with Si inner cvs. Not really practical when you can break them pretty easily if running mega boost [which i don't plan on;)] I'm currently running Si calipers and rotors right now on the Dx calipers plus my white car has Lxi calipers on DA rotors... and of course I have the old "openloop" coupe which is rocking 4x100 redrilled legend rotors with ITR calipers. That car ALSO has a DA modded box already too... hmmm seems like I have a short cut already right here, hahahaha

[hondalude86]

Shit, looks like i need to nut up and buy this!!!

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76307

Still looks like the new box idea would be ideal, but really could be doable!

[cygnus x-1]

Shit, looks like i need to nut up and buy this!!!

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76307

Still looks like the new box idea would be ideal, but really could be doable!

Doesn't say what the LSD is. Could be a bargain or a rip.

That final drive is way low too. I wonder where is came from? Doesn't sound stock.




dave uses a viscous that was custom built (can't remember where but a very reliable company) for 600bucks.


Dave uses an OPM. It's similar to a Phantom Grip but uses friction discs between the side gears and diff carrier, where the PG uses nothing.




I'm thinking that a viscous just isn't going to be strong enough.

I think a friction clutch type would be just fine for the power levels we're dealing with, but really this is a question for the mfgr..




I will agree that boost would be better on the taller trans, but I'm looking for shorter. MUCH shorter, the idea being that with the higher revs, i need a shorter box to be a similiar equivilent.

I think the problem with turbos is traction. If you're always in the higher gears then it may not be a problem but with short gears and lots of torque you have the makings of a nice tire burner.



Right now my B16 tranny is geared similiar to my base model tranny except for the 3rd gear is taller. My 3rd in my ys1 with the 3.80fd is in the 90-95mph range. But my 4th is in the 140 range, which is my crappy gear in that car... hahaha. Most road courses i can't imagine i'll be going much over 90 in most the parts of the course and on the straights much past 120, so realisiticly, the gear box would be great with the teg box 1-4.

For a higher reving engine you would want shorter gears. And if you find out later that taller gears would be better with the turbo you could always swap out the gears with those from a carbed Accord.



Fuel economy and the sake of my carbies, i want to retain the 5th gear, which is going to make the swap a tick bit more difficult because i'll have to take apart BOTH gear stacks in Both the boxes... But hey, at least its only one gear right?

Oh for sure keep the stock 5th.



Also as far as the Dx vs Si box, from what i read, it was best to avoid the shorter box that was used in the 85 model (both the 83 and 84 aren't compatible with the motor; luv the es1/et1!). The 85 model trans is the one i have ON the motor right now. however, I do have the 2 86-87 Dx trans, that are different for sure, length wise. Something to do with the shift forks being shorter in the older cases being the issue with the new gear stacks. So realisticly, i have 3 dx trannies and no Si trannies.

So does that mean the '86-'87 DX boxes are ok for the 'teg swap? I plan to build one someday too but I'll probably use an A20 box because they're more common. Although I could save some money by using my existing DX box.




The biggest reason for swapping the knuckles was to solve the axel issue more than anything Chris. I'd have to run dx outters and shafts with Si inner cvs. Not really practical when you can break them pretty easily if running mega boost [which i don't plan on;)]

That's true. The inners will have to match whatever the final drive is. It would be easier if you didn't have to make custom axles. The Accord hubs are also stronger, and the knuckles make brake upgrades easier so really no downside expect for labor and cost (which are minimal).



I'm currently running Si calipers and rotors right now on the Dx calipers plus my white car has Lxi calipers on DA rotors... and of course I have the old "openloop" coupe which is rocking 4x100 redrilled legend rotors with ITR calipers. That car ALSO has a DA modded box already too... hmmm seems like I have a short cut already right here, hahahaha

When you say "DA" you mean the '86-'89 Integra right? "DA" is '90-'93 isn't it? I always get the letter codes confused. It's easier to use year and model I think.


C|

[rjudgey]

The later DX boxes are fine but they are just a gamble getting one as some are newer ones some are older ones from those years. But as you've already measured and they've come out I think about 5mm longer than the early ones they are fine they can be used! So cygnus if you check the length and it's the same as Ryans then you should be fine but to be honest would be worth having a spare box incase you need a rebuild just see if you can pick up a cheap one that has it's gears mangled and just use the bell housing to swap onto the teg gearbox.

As for the teg gears even with the high geared 5th I still like it with my engine revving to 8k
1st get's me about 45mph
2nd 70mph
3rd 100mph
4th 130mph
5th for anything above

This is indicated speed not true speed my tyres are 195/50/15 for better accelerating as well upto 70mph speedo pretty accurate above 3rd is more like 95mph 4th is more like 120mph and top speed is probably at the moment around 140mph If I have my 205/50/15 on then you can add 5mph on top of all the speeds. The good thing is it keeps the engine in the zone on each change and make accelerating pretty quick I'm still not sure if it's best for drag or not as the longer 3rd gear would mean one less gear to change but your not into that so teggy 3rd would be quicker for you on most tracks that your on.

[gfrg88]

teg gears + that final drive would=fun car :)

[hondalude86]

hahaha, i would imagine with the teg gears AND the 9.615 Fd would be laboring! fwew, it'd be great if you were used to rowwing boats. hahaha, Still just thinking abuot it, trying to moved in a couple of months, so i wont really know what i'll be able to swing till the end of sept. We'll see what happens, and even if this stuff is still around.

Btw, chris... judging (richard judge!! hahaha) by the sellers avatar, i'd say he does some track worthy racing. Thing looks kinda nasty in the pic! I'd imagine that it would be a legit one... again, we'll see

oh, and technically the 1st AND 2nd gens are both DAs, the Body codes for the 1st gens are AV, DA1-DA3 and the second gens are DA5-DA9, DB1 and DB2. Silly right, hahaha.

[cygnus x-1]

Btw, chris... judging (richard judge!! hahaha) by the sellers avatar, i'd say he does some track worthy racing. Thing looks kinda nasty in the pic! I'd imagine that it would be a legit one... again, we'll see


Yeah, I wasn't questioning whether he's legit, I was just pointing out that there is some info missing. I did find this though:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29622

I wonder if he knows Dave Gran.




oh, and technically the 1st AND 2nd gens are both DAs, the Body codes for the 1st gens are AV, DA1-DA3 and the second gens are DA5-DA9, DB1 and DB2. Silly right, hahaha.

See! It's whacked!


So, if you swapped to the Accord knuckles and used the A20 box final drive, would you use SI axles or Accord axles? As I understand the SI and Accord inner splines are the same, but what about the shaft lengths overall?


C|

[hondalude86]

Def use prelude axels. I also have this theory too that if you swap to si lower control arms you would get more negative camber because they are longer. The only part I'm not sure will work 100% is the radius rods. I've not looked to see if both cars use the same front crossmember radius rod setup, but if they did id be confident that I would def be an upgrade for the base model cars, you since we are on the subject and all...

[rustlude87]

Ryan I swore the lower control arms were the same length, and
Cygnus the prelude axles will fit in the knucke easy.

But has anyone compared to the FD in any D series trans? Like the old cable ones 88-91?

[rjudgey]

B20A suspension the front LCA and Tie rods are different

[rustlude87]

Ok that makes sense, Rich could you take some pictures of that by chance?

[cygnus x-1]

Just to add to the confusion, the part numbers for the '87 DX and SI LCAs and radius rods are all different. What the actual differences are I couldn't say.


C|

[rjudgey]

Bit hard to take pics as they look the same the arms are shorter and the tie rods are shorter too I think, design is very similar though, only found this out as I wanted to change the arms over from my carbed car and had some SI ones spare went to change them and found the sway bar was miles from lining up!! then put them together and were different lengths.

[hondalude86]

Looks like that limited slip is a phantom grip or something similiar, maybe an OPM or something like Dave has. But it doesn't look like a legit clutch type like the box suggests... Final drive looks legit, and you know that it works (or can hope) with the LSD he has listed, but after looking at it, it looks a bit pricey. Could phantom grip one of my opens for alot cheaper, question is, would that final drive still bolt to my current Differential? (*EDIT) i looked around for pictures of the OPM diff, and this looks just like it, so I'm confirming it being an OPM, or at least very similar. If i go for it, i'm going to try and get it cheaper than what he's asking. I can get a replacement for the a20 directly from opm for 750 brand new...

[rustlude87]

Did you have to call them to get this info Ryan?

[rustlude87]

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1388071

[hondalude86]

So after some talk with my local buddy that's running an obx, and jared, i think i'm going to go the OBX in an a18 case with the a18 5th gear and the teggy 1-4th gears. Here is an interesting article, and i believe i will be buying this guys 38 dollar kit! Seems worth it when your only spending 350 bucks on an LSD...

http://rbryant.freeshell.org/obx_washers.htm

[rjudgey]

IS that new price of OBX diff $350? who you buying it from? way cheaper than Quaife! (although Quaife undeniably better)

[hondalude86]

Yea rich, these thingsare cheap but if read the article I posted you can see why

[rjudgey]

I know i did see thinking cost of those extra parts, plus labour for someone to change and check everything out, plus shipping and import tax I might as well just get a quaife! lol! But then again still is only $350 how do they perform though in comparison to phantom or Quaife? Think Quaife are like 5999 pounds!! But they are just down the road so no shipping needed! lol!

[hondalude86]

They are suppose to perform almost as well as a quaife. Several people have reported no issues with these unitsz once properly gone through and there are several people rocking these with more than 500+ horsepower!

[MessyHonda]

teg gears rule in these cars. dont bother to get a obx lsd. its a cheap chinese knockoff. at least go with a m factory lsd.

[gfrg88]

Really thinking about doing the same with my tranny... hmmm.. tempting...