Looking for a Seal

[DBMaster]

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sg701_b27.pnghttp://http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sg701_b27.png


I am looking for part #2 in this diagram. It's an outer axle seal, I believe. I can't seem to find it anywhere and my online order with a Honda parts company was canceled due to the part no longer being available.

Anyone purchased this part recently?

Is it something you definitely have to replace when replacing a wheel bearing?

Muchas gracias!

Mike

[stephensimmons]

Where have you looked?

[DBMaster]

Drivewire
Rock Auto
Parts Geek
Dealer Direct Parts (No longer available)
Majestic Honda (No longer available)

I can't tell if the thing is a seal or not. The shop manual calls it a "ring." It is not noted as a "replace" item in the shop manual, either. I suppose, since I am taking the knuckle to my mechanic to R&R the bearing, he can probably get one if it needs to be replaced.

I ordered the bearing from Parts Geek (Koyo brand) yesterday and it already arrived today. It shipped from a local warehouse.

[DBMaster]

Bump!

No one who has replaced a front wheel bearing can tell me if this thing is a seal or a reusable part?

[2drSE-i]

It's a big metal ring, its reusable, as long as your mechanic knows what he's doing and doesn't destroy it.

[DBMaster]

That is excellent news. Thanks, 2drSE-i!

My mechanic is top notch, but I may go ahead and remove it myself before bringing him the knuckle.

[2drSE-i]

That is excellent news. Thanks, 2drSE-i!

My mechanic is top notch, but I may go ahead and remove it myself before bringing him the knuckle.

No worries. Before I tore mine down I was worried about the same thing, because you CANNOT get a replacement. Come to find out its metal lol

[POS carb]

http://compare.ebay.com/like/300472886848?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

44348-SE0-000
$4.97

[DBMaster]

http://compare.ebay.com/like/300472886848?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

44348-SE0-000
$4.97


Wow. How obscure is that? I'll try to be good to mine. I am tearing out the knuckle tomorrow after work so I can take it into the shop Wednesday.

[Ichiban]

I'd replace it now while It's still semi available.

[DBMaster]

I don't need to replace mine. I am about to pull the knuckle to replace the bearing and wanted to make sure the thing wasn't a seal that needed to be replaced. That has been confirmed. Wish me luck since I am removing the knuckle tonight and taking it to the shop tomorrow.

[DBMaster]

Just pulled the knuckle. Thirty minutes from start to finish. The ring pried out quite easily with no damage. Glad I decided to spend $15 on a new Pittman arm puller. The one I had did the job, but it was one of those adjustable ones that wasn't that easy to use.

[Dr_Snooz]

You work fast my friend. Nice job.

[DBMaster]

Just got the call from my mechanic. $20 cash to R&R the bearing. The lower ball joint did not need to be replaced. I did replace both - unnecessarily - when the car had about 100,000 miles on it. They are TRW joints. I was going to have them do the joint, too, so I picked up one of the O'Reilly's "lifetime" ones. When I saw it was made in China I changed my mind. Keeping my fingers crossed on the noise. They didn't think my original bearing was in bad shape but it did have a slight amount of play in it and they said when they took it out it looked like it has been subjected to some heat lately.

[DBMaster]

FAIL!

When I picked up the knuckle I noticed a fair amount of play in the assembly. It looked like it was pressed in properly and not damaged but it did not feel right. I put everything back together and have been hearing some very disturbing low speed scraping noises. On the highway it is "OK," but not what I was expecting. It appears that I am going to have to do this again.

[Dr_Snooz]

Do it yourself!!!! It's much betterer.

Oh, and sorry to hear that, BTW.

[lostforawhile]

it's a dust seal I had a terrible time finding it, I'm trying to think where I got it. I may have got the last two for all I know.

[lostforawhile]

it's called a knuckle ring, official Honda name, you might try thisoldhonda.org, they have some places there that can find these parts, I'm looking for the picture but it's missing, I will look in my other computer in a bit.

[lostforawhile]

this is the best picture I have, if someone wants to donate a junk inner joint, even just the part of it that goes through the bearing, I'll start looking at bearing seals to see If I can find something that will work, I have my old hubs with these in them for reference and measurements. There must be a metric bearing seal that will fit in the back of the hub.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/is_00508.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/moultriemanicmechanic/is_00509.jpg

[DBMaster]

I guess I would do the whole job myself if I had a hydraulic press. About all I can do is pull the knuckle, which is relatively quick and easy. The play in the bearing seems to be between the races. It looks perfect and this guy has been doing this for years so I don't see how he could have messed up the bearing. Of course, even the best mechanics mess up now and then. I ordered a Timken bearing this time. The one in there now is the Koyo, which is supposed to be one of the OEM brands used by Honda. It seemed too cheap - $35 for Koyo v. $50+ for a Timken or National. I'm going to send it back once it's out and try again. It quieted down somewhat, but there is what I call a lot of play in the wheel assembly now and it's a little - not a lot - noisy on the highway. I guess it's possible (not probable) to get a bad bearing, I hope!

[lostforawhile]

I guess I would do the whole job myself if I had a hydraulic press. About all I can do is pull the knuckle, which is relatively quick and easy. The play in the bearing seems to be between the races. It looks perfect and this guy has been doing this for years so I don't see how he could have messed up the bearing. Of course, even the best mechanics mess up now and then. I ordered a Timken bearing this time. The one in there now is the Koyo, which is supposed to be one of the OEM brands used by Honda. It seemed too cheap - $35 for Koyo v. $50+ for a Timken or National. I'm going to send it back once it's out and try again. It quieted down somewhat, but there is what I call a lot of play in the wheel assembly now and it's a little - not a lot - noisy on the highway. I guess it's possible (not probable) to get a bad bearing, I hope!

mine did this for a little while and then they were fine, some play between the bearing halves in normal without the axle nut tightened up. the main thing is make sure the axle nut is torqued right this directly affects the bearings

[DBMaster]

I did torque the axle nut correctly and still have too much play. The noise I was getting from the little bit of play the original bearing had is now louder because this one has more play in it. The bearing on the left side (still original) has none.

[lostforawhile]

I did torque the axle nut correctly and still have too much play. The noise I was getting from the little bit of play the original bearing had is now louder because this one has more play in it. The bearing on the left side (still original) has none.
when you put in the bearings you did reinstall the big circlip right?

[Ichiban]

I had to cut that big stupid metal labyrinth ring off of mine when I did the teg shafts. Turns out the accord cv ends have a ring machined into them to accept that, whereas the teg cv's don't. Once I was done, it resembled an ordinary oil seal, which i pressed into the hub. I imagine that you could get an oil seal that matches the ID/OD as required, remember that the seal needs a few thou press in order to retain itself in the knuckle.

[DBMaster]

when you put in the bearings you did reinstall the big circlip right?

Shop owner says yes. Though, the circlip retains the outer race. This play is in the bearing assembly itself. I have been using this shop for years and all they work on is Honda and Acura.The shop owner is a Honda master tech. I let him replace my transmission and A/C. I would think he could handle pressing in a bearing. I'm starting to think this is one of those things I should have left alone. The noise was not that bad.:deadhorse:

[lostforawhile]

I had to cut that big stupid metal labyrinth ring off of mine when I did the teg shafts. Turns out the accord cv ends have a ring machined into them to accept that, whereas the teg cv's don't. Once I was done, it resembled an ordinary oil seal, which i pressed into the hub. I imagine that you could get an oil seal that matches the ID/OD as required, remember that the seal needs a few thou press in order to retain itself in the knuckle.

i'm working on that now, I just picked up a masterpro set of seals for the disc brake/hubs on my Lincoln and they look just like the seals on the 3g, I'm going to try to contact them to see if they have a breakdown of seals by size

[lostforawhile]

I was able to remove those knuckle rings on my old hubs with no problem at all, and put them back in. just some light pressure from a screwdriver in different places, so they are reusable. I went out a little while ago and tested it

[DBMaster]

I was able to remove those knuckle rings on my old hubs with no problem at all, and put them back in. just some light pressure from a screwdriver in different places, so they are reusable. I went out a little while ago and tested it

That was my experience as well. They are so easy to remove I'm surprise they stay in place as well as they do.

[DBMaster]

So, I got my package from Rock Auto today. The bearing they sent me is an NSK that says "Japan" on it. What I ordered was a Timken bearing. Since they do not even list NSK bearings on Rock Auto I am wondering if this is a comparable, high-quality brand. Parts Geek is going to let me return the Koyo bearing.

[lostforawhile]

So, I got my package from Rock Auto today. The bearing they sent me is an NSK that says "Japan" on it. What I ordered was a Timken bearing. Since they do not even list NSK bearings on Rock Auto I am wondering if this is a comparable, high-quality brand. Parts Geek is going to let NSK me return the Koyo bearing.NSK is an excellent bearing, I believe Honda used that bearing new. I know my originals are NSK

[DBMaster]

Thanks, Lost. I couldn't really tell much by looking at it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that once it's pressed in it won't have play in it.

[lostforawhile]

Thanks, Lost. I couldn't really tell much by looking at it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that once it's pressed in it won't have play in it.
I would have no problem putting an NSK bearing in my car, just make sure it's a REAL nsk bearing, there is a major issue going on with counterfeit Chinese made ones. You said it came from Rock Auto? might want to check with him to make sure it's real

[apache07x]

This is what I got for mine when I did mine about a year ago or so http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-WHEEL-HUB-BEARINGS-FRONT-HONDA-ACCORD-86-89-KIT-/140518332615?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1987|Model%3AAccord&hash=item20b78b98c7#ht_1477wt_1165 Precision Automotive is what brand they are and they are nice and quite. Of course I have my own press and stuff too so I know there were no installation errors. Good luck hope you get it sorted out okay.

[DBMaster]

Uh, yeah, I'm sure that a C/S rep from Rock Auto is going to know whether or not the NSK bearing, which they are not even "supposed" to carry, is real or fake. Not to be flippant, but I doubt that is going to be the case. I looked at quite a few bearings online and bearing/hub kits. My hub seems fine, straight, and not rusty. I have used oil on the lug threads since the car was new to prevent rust and lockup. I read that you're not supposed to do that, but I have had good luck with that procedure for 30 years. I just want this issue resolved since it should be fairly simple. I am not comfortable using a hammer for installation like Snooz did.

[Dr_Snooz]

I used to feel that way too. Then I took some control arms down to Pep Boys to have new bushings pressed in. When I got the arms back, they were so beat up that I demanded they replace them. The tech obviously didn't have the right arbors, so he just kept trying and bashing the ram into the arm when it slipped off. He pushed the rubber out of the bushing. It was a real mess. I thought, I paid for them to do a worse job than I could have done with a hammer. I've never looked back since then. It's really easy. If you were nearby, I'd drive out and help you. Don't do anything you aren't comfortable doing though.

[lostforawhile]

you need to press them, if you hammer in a bearing you are going to damage it, you are hitting the bearing rollers and cage together, thats the same reason you never hammer on a cv axle, unless you are junking it. they are precision bearings, do it right

[Dr_Snooz]

I couldn't possibly put more force on it with a 4# sledge than is going on it when I hit a pothole at 70 mph. There's just no way.

[lostforawhile]

I couldn't possibly put more force on it with a 4# sledge than is going on it when I hit a pothole at 70 mph. There's just no way.

it's the angle, when you hammer it in, you put a lot of side load on the bearings, that damages the bearings and cage, the load when you hit the pothole is completely different. the weakest point of a bearing assembly is the side. The bearing installed into the hub is also a lot stronger then when it's by itself. when you press a bearing in, you have an arbor which is putting constant load on the bearing, vs. the sudden load from a hammer. when you hit a pothole, you are loading the bearing and race through the axis that is strongest,vs the side of the cage which is weakest

[DBMaster]

Okie dokie. I'll let you guys battle it out on this one. I took the NSK bearing into my shop and this time there was no play. Once the old bearing was out I checked it out as I am sending it back for a refund (warning: Parts Geek does not refund outbound shipping, nor do they issue a shipping label for a return). I may get the $35 back for the bearing, but I'll be out about $16 in shipping costs.

The Koyo bearing had no noticeable play when it was pressed out. It looked undamaged. I found out that the grinding noise I heard for the first day was the axle rubbing on the inside of that metal "ring" that started this thread. It was nice and shiny and quite reamed out. It's like the other bearing wasn't even quite right because it positioned the hub slightly too far outward resulting in rubbing when the axle nut was torqued.

Long story short, it's fine now. Thank you for all your suggestions.

[Ichiban]

it's the angle, when you hammer it in, you put a lot of side load on the bearings, that damages the bearings and cage, the load when you hit the pothole is completely different. the weakest point of a bearing assembly is the side. The bearing installed into the hub is also a lot stronger then when it's by itself. when you press a bearing in, you have an arbor which is putting constant load on the bearing, vs. the sudden load from a hammer. when you hit a pothole, you are loading the bearing and race through the axis that is strongest,vs the side of the cage which is weakest


I couldn't possibly put more force on it with a 4# sledge than is going on it when I hit a pothole at 70 mph. There's just no way.


you need to press them, if you hammer in a bearing you are going to damage it, you are hitting the bearing rollers and cage together, thats the same reason you never hammer on a cv axle, unless you are junking it. they are precision bearings, do it right

You guys are both being stupid. You never apply force through the bearing. If it's going into a bore, press on the outside race only. If it's being pressed onto a shaft, press on the inside race only. End of story.

There are rare exceptions where you may transmit force through a bearing while it's rotating, which avoids brinelling the races with the rolling elements. Although you can usually avoid this with liquid nitrogen or an induction bearing heater.



I used to feel that way too. Then I took some control arms down to Pep Boys to have new bushings pressed in. When I got the arms back, they were so beat up that I demanded they replace them. The tech obviously didn't have the right arbors, so he just kept trying and bashing the ram into the arm when it slipped off. He pushed the rubber out of the bushing. It was a real mess. I thought, I paid for them to do a worse job than I could have done with a hammer. I've never looked back since then. It's really easy. If you were nearby, I'd drive out and help you. Don't do anything you aren't comfortable doing though.

This is why I never trust taking a vehicle to a shop. I just replaced the AC condenser in my wifes car after the dealership stabbed it with the rad support, while they were changing the rad fan motor on warranty. Of course the warranty ran out before we discovered the AC was dead, as the fan was changed in the fall when the AC wasn't being used. Think the dealership would fix it? They denied all responsibility, even though the damage was behind the rad support crossmember right where the corner of it comes close when pulling it out. Like the tech didn't notice when half a kilogram of refrigerant pissed out in his face. They also left out all of the hard to get to bolts.

[Dr_Snooz]

^^^ Right. You hammer on the race, not the ball bearings. That would be crazy. I mean, give an idiot a hammer and he can destroy just about anything, but the same holds true for hydraulic presses, as I found out. If you know what you're doing and you're careful, it's a great way to do your own bearings.

[lostforawhile]

I should have clarified, when i said the race, I'm used to working with two piece Timken bearings, which have the rollers and cage as one part, and the race as another, I also deal with one piece roller flange bearings every day, which need to be pressed in. The worst thing you can do to a bearing is hit it with impact forces from the side, I know not to put pressure on the rollers. I've been working with these bearings nearly every work day for almost 12 years, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm really not, I just don't want someone to spend a lot of money on bearings and have them fail down the road because of an installation mistake

[DBMaster]

I innocently asked the shop if they supported the inner race when pressing in the hub. They said, "Of course." Like I said, after seeing the Koyo bearing it appeared intact and undamaged. There was no play that I could feel, but once it's in the knuckle it's there. I'm just glad it's done. I can think of a number of hard knocks that right front bearing has taken over the years including two curb impacts that damaged wheels. It's no small wonder that bearing wore out first.